I've been thinking about how to allow my game's barbarian to multiclass into a bard in a setting where magic is rare and highly regulated. (Specifically, it's a Dragonlance campaign that leans hard into the authority of the Towers.) Here's what I've come up with.
Bards don't default to having magic at all. Instead, like Orpheus, their music has effects that can seem almost magical. A lot of players and DMs on this forum clearly lean into that concept already, but for my campaign, it has the following mechanical consequences:
Bards must have time to sing a song. This almost inherently precludes combat use.
Bards do not have spell slots. If it seems like they're singing an awful lot in one day, perhaps their throat gets dry.
Bards can only select spells that reasonably represent psychological effects of songs. Animal Friendship, Sleep, Hideous Laughter, and Charm Person are clear first-level choices.
In mechanical terms, bards become entirely ritual casters for a specific range of effects for which wizards would need spell slots. For me, this feels much more thematic, and might be how I'd prefer to run bards in general. Meanwhile, in a higher magic setting, there's nothing wrong with having both options for bards. The RAW bard can spend a few seconds to make someone laugh for a solid minute, whereas the pure song bard can keep a crowd laughing as long as she can keep singing. She can't wield magic in combat, but that's okay--characters are supposed to have their strengths in different areas. (It's especially okay in this case, since it's for a bard-barian, but even for a pure bard I like this.)
Does the bard player community hate this? Has this been proposed many times before? I looked back a few pages and didn't see something like this, but I can't imagine I'm the first with such an idea.
Firstly, I think that limiting factors have to be put on other casters as well. Significantly altering a magic system for a single caster to fit a campaign could cause feelings of favouritism for other spellcasting classes, who remain untouched and just as powerful as normal.
Secondly, there's lots of nuance in here. How much time do the bards need to perform? If it's 10 minutes, how does the bard keep any animal listening and concentrated for the whole 10 minutes to gain the effects of Animal friendship? Or can a bard just play all day and cast whatever spell they want, with no wastage of spell slots as they have none? How do you rule when a bard's 'throat gets dry'? Rolling and making it random means some bullshit stuff can happen very early or late in a day, but making it set can be annoying as well as it could be too hih or low, and you or the player could lose track of time. When does the time reset? Spells like Sleep, hideous laughter and charm all have combat usage, just because they don't deal damage doesn't mean they can't be useful in combat. In fact, that's the whole point of bards: battlefield disruption, buffing allies and debuffing allies. Your proposed rules mean that many of these spells become redundant, as the effects don't last long enough. The lack of spell slots means any spell that has a long lasting effect would become very powerful, and could be stacked if the spells' ruling allows it. Removing or confining a spellcaster to a few select spells sucks, from both a roleplay and combat viewpoint.
I understand the desire for an accurate representation of your world's magic in a pc, but it comes with some strong flaws that can't be ignored. You need to talk to the player and discuss the refinement of some magic to match your setting. If you really want to confine magic, then I would recommend limiting bards to the ritual casting ability, or halfing either their spell slots or spells known. You could also limit their bardic inspiration to half their charisma modifier, or their proficiency bonus, as it scales much more slowly. Hope this helped.
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Interesting idea, but it's really a huge nerf. Even if they're a Barbarian off the bat, the complete and utter lack of combat utility will suck. I'd say, if you want to go this path, I would recommend making Bards half casters, with slower (and very unique) spell progression that they make up for with martial abilities. Also, full ritual casting time is a really long song. I would say give each spell a different casting time, or just let them ritual cast spells in 3-5 minutes.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Going this direction is definitely a fit for this specific table and player (who prefers roleplay and finding non-violent solutions), but I'd like to make this route a valid alternative rather than a nerf that might be viable at other tables too. So...
Bards get spell slots for effects of their natural charisma that they can only pull out so many times in a day.
The Bard spell lists gets considerably expanded from homebrew, mostly already existing here on DnDBeyond, to compensate for spells they can no longer learn. I've already found more than enough well-balanced level 1 spells and cantrips to give the player plenty of options. For example, a spell cast as a reaction when a companion makes a persuasion or intimidation check the bard dislikes, which enables the bard to barge into the social situation and make their own check instead, with proficiency bonus. Or in combat, a reaction spell that enables taking an enemy down to 1hp when a blow would otherwise take it to 0hp, followed by a persuasion check at +10 against the defeated foe.
Bard ritual casting takes 3-5 minutes. Durations for spells last as long as they can maintain the song, with listed durations describing how long the effect lasts after the song ends. Bards must have unused spell slots in the spell's level or higher to use ritual casting.
It's an interesting idea and I totally understand why you might want a more music/song-focused Bard. As a low level character, I think this is easier to pull off while remaining balanced since 1st and 2nd level spells are where you will find the effects commonly associated hedge wizards. My main concern would be how the balance issues might become more apparent after 5th level when other magic users get access to spells like Counterspell, Conjure Animals, Spirit Guardians and then get even more power with spells like Wall of Fire, Disintegrate, etc.
Also, what does a pure Bard do in combat if they are under the effect of a Silence spell? Sure a part-Barbarian can still jam with an axe (pun intended), but if someone were to play a pure Bard, wouldn't they be completely locked down? I'm just asking to check whether you've considred the full implications of a class entirely dependent on songs for their magical effects.
Another question: How similar are Bards in your campaign to Warlocks, mechanically speaking?
These are excellent questions! And they reveal the extent to which I designed this concept around only the first level or two of Bard, for an otherwise Barbarian character.
If we look at the D&D movie (controversial, I know), we see how the Bard isn't a spellcaster at all, and the spellcasting on his DDB stat block plays very much like what I'm describing here--more an outcome of his natural charisma than magical per se. I have to imagine that the writers went that direction for reasons similar to mine. Ultimately, the bard as a spellcaster on par with the sorcerer feels weird in many settings. The movie didn't come up with a rebalance though--the Bard is just objectively weaker than his comrades. This winds up working in the movie but would be a bummer in a game.
I think the pure song Bard would have an ability starting at an early level called Break Silence, which enables their sheer power of song to break through a silence spell or similar effect, perhaps depending on the Bard's level versus the caster's level. This would only work for songs, so you can't take a level in Bard just to be a silence-proof Wizard. But it would be one way that the song Bard would have a strength that spellcasters don't.
To make songs work and feel balanced for the Bard, I effectively created a new spell list, with a lot of homebrew and a lot of conventional spells off limits. Doing this for every level would take a lot of effort. I'm convinced it could be done, especially if we allow for higher levels to have profound effects on the world, like in fairy tales. I'm thinking of Orpheus, especially as depicted in the recent musical Hadestown. Or the Pied Piper.
I'd like to see a class that truly operates through songs rather than conventional spells. To avoid confusion, maybe it shouldn't even be called Bard, even though it's more bard than Bard is. Orpheus class? Several aspects of the 5e updating plans suggest to me that they're aiming for more supportable classes, rather than homebrew only having support in subclasses. A fully developed Orpheus class would require something between an overhaul of Bard and a start from scratch. Since I don't need this for my game, I'm not necessarily putting in that effort right now, but I'll keep the project in mind, especially if DnDBeyond starts allowing homebrew classes.
I think the pure song Bard would have an ability starting at an early level called Break Silence, which enables their sheer power of song to break through a silence spell or similar effect, perhaps depending on the Bard's level versus the caster's level. This would only work for songs, so you can't take a level in Bard just to be a silence-proof Wizard. But it would be one way that the song Bard would have a strength that spellcasters don't.
To make songs work and feel balanced for the Bard, I effectively created a new spell list, with a lot of homebrew and a lot of conventional spells off limits. Doing this for every level would take a lot of effort. I'm convinced it could be done, especially if we allow for higher levels to have profound effects on the world, like in fairy tales. I'm thinking of Orpheus, especially as depicted in the recent musical Hadestown. Or the Pied Piper.
I see where an anti-Silence ability would make sense. At the same time, it's also something potentially unbalancing since Silence is one of the few spells that can regularly shutdown most spellcasters with a high Wisdom save. I would need to see it as a rule and playtest with several potential multiclasses to see whether this is true. Keep in mind that I'm thinking of your homebrew Bard multic w/ with Druid, Cleric, or Wizard. Not sure whether that would work, thematically.
That also brings up the question of how you would multiclass the homebrew Bard with other spellcasters. This might not be an issue in your homebrew campaign, but multiclassing casters isn't uncommon in the wider D&D playerbase.
Lastly - and you're probably already aware of this - Bards in the old D&D was really a blend of fighter, rogue, and something resembling druid, with those in 2nd and 3rd edition being underpowered. While I think your homebrew Bard/Orpheus class might be more thematically in line with traditional depictions of bards, it also risks being seen as underpowered once it has to compete with full spellcasters past 10th level.
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I've been thinking about how to allow my game's barbarian to multiclass into a bard in a setting where magic is rare and highly regulated. (Specifically, it's a Dragonlance campaign that leans hard into the authority of the Towers.) Here's what I've come up with.
Bards don't default to having magic at all. Instead, like Orpheus, their music has effects that can seem almost magical. A lot of players and DMs on this forum clearly lean into that concept already, but for my campaign, it has the following mechanical consequences:
In mechanical terms, bards become entirely ritual casters for a specific range of effects for which wizards would need spell slots. For me, this feels much more thematic, and might be how I'd prefer to run bards in general. Meanwhile, in a higher magic setting, there's nothing wrong with having both options for bards. The RAW bard can spend a few seconds to make someone laugh for a solid minute, whereas the pure song bard can keep a crowd laughing as long as she can keep singing. She can't wield magic in combat, but that's okay--characters are supposed to have their strengths in different areas. (It's especially okay in this case, since it's for a bard-barian, but even for a pure bard I like this.)
Does the bard player community hate this? Has this been proposed many times before? I looked back a few pages and didn't see something like this, but I can't imagine I'm the first with such an idea.
Firstly, I think that limiting factors have to be put on other casters as well. Significantly altering a magic system for a single caster to fit a campaign could cause feelings of favouritism for other spellcasting classes, who remain untouched and just as powerful as normal.
Secondly, there's lots of nuance in here. How much time do the bards need to perform? If it's 10 minutes, how does the bard keep any animal listening and concentrated for the whole 10 minutes to gain the effects of Animal friendship? Or can a bard just play all day and cast whatever spell they want, with no wastage of spell slots as they have none? How do you rule when a bard's 'throat gets dry'? Rolling and making it random means some bullshit stuff can happen very early or late in a day, but making it set can be annoying as well as it could be too hih or low, and you or the player could lose track of time. When does the time reset? Spells like Sleep, hideous laughter and charm all have combat usage, just because they don't deal damage doesn't mean they can't be useful in combat. In fact, that's the whole point of bards: battlefield disruption, buffing allies and debuffing allies. Your proposed rules mean that many of these spells become redundant, as the effects don't last long enough. The lack of spell slots means any spell that has a long lasting effect would become very powerful, and could be stacked if the spells' ruling allows it. Removing or confining a spellcaster to a few select spells sucks, from both a roleplay and combat viewpoint.
I understand the desire for an accurate representation of your world's magic in a pc, but it comes with some strong flaws that can't be ignored. You need to talk to the player and discuss the refinement of some magic to match your setting. If you really want to confine magic, then I would recommend limiting bards to the ritual casting ability, or halfing either their spell slots or spells known. You could also limit their bardic inspiration to half their charisma modifier, or their proficiency bonus, as it scales much more slowly. Hope this helped.
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Interesting idea, but it's really a huge nerf. Even if they're a Barbarian off the bat, the complete and utter lack of combat utility will suck. I'd say, if you want to go this path, I would recommend making Bards half casters, with slower (and very unique) spell progression that they make up for with martial abilities. Also, full ritual casting time is a really long song. I would say give each spell a different casting time, or just let them ritual cast spells in 3-5 minutes.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
These are both useful feedback!
Going this direction is definitely a fit for this specific table and player (who prefers roleplay and finding non-violent solutions), but I'd like to make this route a valid alternative rather than a nerf that might be viable at other tables too. So...
Bards get spell slots for effects of their natural charisma that they can only pull out so many times in a day.
The Bard spell lists gets considerably expanded from homebrew, mostly already existing here on DnDBeyond, to compensate for spells they can no longer learn. I've already found more than enough well-balanced level 1 spells and cantrips to give the player plenty of options. For example, a spell cast as a reaction when a companion makes a persuasion or intimidation check the bard dislikes, which enables the bard to barge into the social situation and make their own check instead, with proficiency bonus. Or in combat, a reaction spell that enables taking an enemy down to 1hp when a blow would otherwise take it to 0hp, followed by a persuasion check at +10 against the defeated foe.
Bard ritual casting takes 3-5 minutes. Durations for spells last as long as they can maintain the song, with listed durations describing how long the effect lasts after the song ends. Bards must have unused spell slots in the spell's level or higher to use ritual casting.
It's an interesting idea and I totally understand why you might want a more music/song-focused Bard. As a low level character, I think this is easier to pull off while remaining balanced since 1st and 2nd level spells are where you will find the effects commonly associated hedge wizards. My main concern would be how the balance issues might become more apparent after 5th level when other magic users get access to spells like Counterspell, Conjure Animals, Spirit Guardians and then get even more power with spells like Wall of Fire, Disintegrate, etc.
Also, what does a pure Bard do in combat if they are under the effect of a Silence spell? Sure a part-Barbarian can still jam with an axe (pun intended), but if someone were to play a pure Bard, wouldn't they be completely locked down? I'm just asking to check whether you've considred the full implications of a class entirely dependent on songs for their magical effects.
Another question: How similar are Bards in your campaign to Warlocks, mechanically speaking?
These are excellent questions! And they reveal the extent to which I designed this concept around only the first level or two of Bard, for an otherwise Barbarian character.
If we look at the D&D movie (controversial, I know), we see how the Bard isn't a spellcaster at all, and the spellcasting on his DDB stat block plays very much like what I'm describing here--more an outcome of his natural charisma than magical per se. I have to imagine that the writers went that direction for reasons similar to mine. Ultimately, the bard as a spellcaster on par with the sorcerer feels weird in many settings. The movie didn't come up with a rebalance though--the Bard is just objectively weaker than his comrades. This winds up working in the movie but would be a bummer in a game.
I think the pure song Bard would have an ability starting at an early level called Break Silence, which enables their sheer power of song to break through a silence spell or similar effect, perhaps depending on the Bard's level versus the caster's level. This would only work for songs, so you can't take a level in Bard just to be a silence-proof Wizard. But it would be one way that the song Bard would have a strength that spellcasters don't.
To make songs work and feel balanced for the Bard, I effectively created a new spell list, with a lot of homebrew and a lot of conventional spells off limits. Doing this for every level would take a lot of effort. I'm convinced it could be done, especially if we allow for higher levels to have profound effects on the world, like in fairy tales. I'm thinking of Orpheus, especially as depicted in the recent musical Hadestown. Or the Pied Piper.
I'd like to see a class that truly operates through songs rather than conventional spells. To avoid confusion, maybe it shouldn't even be called Bard, even though it's more bard than Bard is. Orpheus class? Several aspects of the 5e updating plans suggest to me that they're aiming for more supportable classes, rather than homebrew only having support in subclasses. A fully developed Orpheus class would require something between an overhaul of Bard and a start from scratch. Since I don't need this for my game, I'm not necessarily putting in that effort right now, but I'll keep the project in mind, especially if DnDBeyond starts allowing homebrew classes.
I see where an anti-Silence ability would make sense. At the same time, it's also something potentially unbalancing since Silence is one of the few spells that can regularly shutdown most spellcasters with a high Wisdom save. I would need to see it as a rule and playtest with several potential multiclasses to see whether this is true. Keep in mind that I'm thinking of your homebrew Bard multic w/ with Druid, Cleric, or Wizard. Not sure whether that would work, thematically.
That also brings up the question of how you would multiclass the homebrew Bard with other spellcasters. This might not be an issue in your homebrew campaign, but multiclassing casters isn't uncommon in the wider D&D playerbase.
Lastly - and you're probably already aware of this - Bards in the old D&D was really a blend of fighter, rogue, and something resembling druid, with those in 2nd and 3rd edition being underpowered. While I think your homebrew Bard/Orpheus class might be more thematically in line with traditional depictions of bards, it also risks being seen as underpowered once it has to compete with full spellcasters past 10th level.