My bard is college of lore and at 6th level I get to choose 2 spells from any class. I was wondering whether at 7th I could swap them with other spells from any class, as bards can swap spells whenever they level up.
I think so. Indeed, Magic secrects says that these new spells (even from different classes) count as bard spells for you. So, yes, you can change those as well. The only problem is that when you change a bard spell you have to choose the new one from the bard spell list.
I think so. Indeed, Magic secrects says that these new spells (even from different classes) count as bard spells for you. So, yes, you can change those as well. The only problem is that when you change a bard spell you have to choose the new one from the bard spell list.
I saw that post before and didn't like how Crawford worded his reply.
"A spell learned via Magical Secrets counts as a bard spell, so it can be replaced upon gaining a level later." + "If a bard replaces a bard spell upon leveling up, the new spell must also be a bard spell"
That doesn't REALLY answer the question that was being asked (which is one of the problems with the way he answer's Sage Advice; sometimes he's too "official" sounding). The question was clearly, "can you select another spell from another class as the replacement for a Magical Secrets spell?", but he answered it as if it was an essay question.
He could have said right in the beginning, "Yes, they can be replaced; however, the new spells must be taken from the bard's normal spell list", as was what I believe to be his actual answer.
I think he tries to be snarky, just to be funny, but sometimes it doesn't translate into actually answering the question.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
That's a silly rule. Why shouldn't a Bard be able to change her magical secrets outside The ordinary spell list? That is kinda the deal with magical secrets, Bards being versatile and have new surprising tricks up their sleeve. We are definitely houseruling that.
If you do houserule it so that bards can keep swapping those spells out for new spells from any spell list, you might soon face complaints of how "overpowered" bards are.
With that ability, a bard would really only need access to Magical Secrets once, and still be able to grab whatever they want (Wish, etc.) as soon as it became available. As it works now, Bards can get, say, level 5 spells from anywhere, but they have to wait a turn (level 10) to do so.
"A spell learned via Magical Secrets counts as a bard spell, so it can be replaced upon gaining a level later." + "If a bard replaces a bard spell upon leveling up, the new spell must also be a bard spell"
I think it does mean that you can later on swap back to the chosen spells. It just transforms 2 non-bard spells to bard spells for your character imo
If I were to House rule it, I would probably do something like you can only swap for spells that are the same lvl or lower from the Magical Secrets tier. So a lvl 10 Magical Secrets can only swap for lvl 5 or lower spells, while the lvl 18 can swap for any spell. I would also include a cost for needed items to perform a ritual to do the switch. Finally if they took Wish and it got burned then they cannot swap it.
I think this would make the Bard more versatile and make picking the 'wrong' Secrets a little less punishing without making the Bard overpowered.
It seems to me to say that a spell you learn with Magical Secrets counts as Bard spell for appropriate spell DC and uses Bard spell slots. It doesn't say it is a Bard spell. I think RAI (and I think RAW) is that no, you cannot change a Magical secret spell out. If you have to house rule then you are in essence going against the rule. But that is me and ...you be you. Its not like it will ruin your game.
I thought the magical secrets description was specific to the point that the Level 6 magical secrets is for two spells of level 3 or lower, the Level 10 magical secrets was for spells level 5 or lower and so on. I never interpreted magical secrets to allow grabbing spells from a higher tier, but before Tasha's came out I guess that was never a real concern for interpretation.
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Magical secrets are a part of the standard spells known list and follow the rules for swapping spells just like every other bard spell known because magical secrets are treated as bard spells for that bard. Swapping spells learned from magical secrets out doesn't change what spell list is available to swap back in and that's what is restricted to the bard spell list, which is a specific list. There's no special rule for swapping secrets back in because it's the spells known rules for spell swapping instead of learning magical secrets that's being applied.
It doesn't matter which spell list a magical secret comes from. The secret can be replaced but the spell known being swapped in must come from the bard spell list.
Crawford has covered this in the sage advice compendium.
Can a bard replace spells gained through Magical Secrets? When you gain a level in the bard class, the class’s Spellcasting feature lets you replace one bard spell you know with another bard spell of an appropriate level. A spell learned through your Magical Secrets feature counts as a bard spell for you, so it can be replaced upon gaining a bard level later. But it must be replaced by a bard spell, according to the rule in the Spellcasting feature.
For reference, tweets are not considered official rulings. Tweets from Jeremy Crawford are considered possible additions to official rulings, but it's not an official ruling until it appears in either Errata or the Sage Advice Compendium.
Taking spells via magical secrets is only limited choosing a spell of a level the bard can cast. Swapping the spell out for a new spell still follows the rule in the spellcasting section. I can learn fireball on a 6th level lore bard via extra secrets, and change that for glibness at 15th level if I want.
They can only change a spell once level that usually happens once every few months. How is that over powered? Do you level every session?
The potential problem is that they could get a new, max-level exotic (read: non-Bard) spell EVERY level if they wanted, instead of a one-time choice of two exotic fixed-level spells every four levels. And with multiple Magical Secrets, the problem would just compound.
A Lore Bard gets Additional Magical Secrets at level 6, so normally by level 9 has a new 5th-level Bard spell, can upgrade a lower-level Bard spell to a 5th-level Bard spell, and has two exotic 3rd-level spells. Then at level 10, he gets two new, exotic 5th level spells and moves on, winding up with two exotic 5th-level and two exotic 3rd-level spells.
With this houserule, that same level 9 Lore Bard now has a new 5th-level Bard spell, a new 5th-level exotic spell (because why wouldn't you?), and an exotic 4th-level spell (previously upgraded.) THEN at level 10, he gets two MORE exotic 5th-level spells, and can upgrade the exotic 4th-level spell, and winds up with four exotic 5th-level spells. ALL of which he can ALSO later upgrade for ANY OTHER HIGHER-LEVEL SPELL HE WANTS.
If you're okay with that, more power to you, but personally, I'd expect to see the usage of all spellcasters besides Bards see a noticeable drop in my campaigns if I ruled that.
it seems clear to me that you replace them with any other spell, not just bard spells. Anything else seems foolish.
That said, I find most of the time you choose a spell that is from any school you tend to have really good options that are not worth replacing. The whole idea of Magical Secrets is you get the best spells -- so they should all be good till level 20 anyway. Two at 10th (5th or lower), 14 (7th or lower) and two at 18 (9th or lower)
Common spell choices at 10th are:
Anti Life, Circle of Power, Counterspell, Temporal Shunt, Wall of Force.
Note that Counterspell is not even a 5th level spell. These spells are good till level 20.
Crawford has covered this in the sage advice compendium.
Can a bard replace spells gained through Magical Secrets? When you gain a level in the bard class, the class’s Spellcasting feature lets you replace one bard spell you know with another bard spell of an appropriate level. A spell learned through your Magical Secrets feature counts as a bard spell for you, so it can be replaced upon gaining a bard level later. But it must be replaced by a bard spell, according to the rule in the Spellcasting feature.
For reference, tweets are not considered official rulings. Tweets from Jeremy Crawford are considered possible additions to official rulings, but it's not an official ruling until it appears in either Errata or the Sage Advice Compendium.
Holy necropost, Batman. This thread is 5 years old and had had no replies for more than a year.
That said, Magical Secrets lets you learn spells from other classes and those spells are considered Bard spells for you. Bards are allowed to change a spell when they level up and are allowed to change any of the spells they have learned with spells from the Bard spell list when doing so. So while you can change the spells you've learned through Magical Secrets, you would not be at liberty to change them with spells from another class' spell list.
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My bard is college of lore and at 6th level I get to choose 2 spells from any class. I was wondering whether at 7th I could swap them with other spells from any class, as bards can swap spells whenever they level up.
Thanks!
I think so. Indeed, Magic secrects says that these new spells (even from different classes) count as bard spells for you. So, yes, you can change those as well. The only problem is that when you change a bard spell you have to choose the new one from the bard spell list.
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/13/a-spell-learned-via-magical-secrets/
Briliant, thank you!
"A spell learned via Magical Secrets counts as a bard spell, so it can be replaced upon gaining a level later."
+
"If a bard replaces a bard spell upon leveling up, the new spell must also be a bard spell"
He could have said right in the beginning, "Yes, they can be replaced; however, the new spells must be taken from the bard's normal spell list", as was what I believe to be his actual answer.
I think he tries to be snarky, just to be funny, but sometimes it doesn't translate into actually answering the question.
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
That's a silly rule. Why shouldn't a Bard be able to change her magical secrets outside The ordinary spell list? That is kinda the deal with magical secrets, Bards being versatile and have new surprising tricks up their sleeve. We are definitely houseruling that.
If you do houserule it so that bards can keep swapping those spells out for new spells from any spell list, you might soon face complaints of how "overpowered" bards are.
With that ability, a bard would really only need access to Magical Secrets once, and still be able to grab whatever they want (Wish, etc.) as soon as it became available. As it works now, Bards can get, say, level 5 spells from anywhere, but they have to wait a turn (level 10) to do so.
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Flèche* - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
"A spell learned via Magical Secrets counts as a bard spell, so it can be replaced upon gaining a level later."
+
"If a bard replaces a bard spell upon leveling up, the new spell must also be a bard spell"
I think it does mean that you can later on swap back to the chosen spells. It just transforms 2 non-bard spells to bard spells for your character imo
If I were to House rule it, I would probably do something like you can only swap for spells that are the same lvl or lower from the Magical Secrets tier. So a lvl 10 Magical Secrets can only swap for lvl 5 or lower spells, while the lvl 18 can swap for any spell. I would also include a cost for needed items to perform a ritual to do the switch. Finally if they took Wish and it got burned then they cannot swap it.
I think this would make the Bard more versatile and make picking the 'wrong' Secrets a little less punishing without making the Bard overpowered.
It seems to me to say that a spell you learn with Magical Secrets counts as Bard spell for appropriate spell DC and uses Bard spell slots. It doesn't say it is a Bard spell. I think RAI (and I think RAW) is that no, you cannot change a Magical secret spell out. If you have to house rule then you are in essence going against the rule. But that is me and ...you be you. Its not like it will ruin your game.
I thought the magical secrets description was specific to the point that the Level 6 magical secrets is for two spells of level 3 or lower, the Level 10 magical secrets was for spells level 5 or lower and so on. I never interpreted magical secrets to allow grabbing spells from a higher tier, but before Tasha's came out I guess that was never a real concern for interpretation.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Magical secrets are a part of the standard spells known list and follow the rules for swapping spells just like every other bard spell known because magical secrets are treated as bard spells for that bard. Swapping spells learned from magical secrets out doesn't change what spell list is available to swap back in and that's what is restricted to the bard spell list, which is a specific list. There's no special rule for swapping secrets back in because it's the spells known rules for spell swapping instead of learning magical secrets that's being applied.
It doesn't matter which spell list a magical secret comes from. The secret can be replaced but the spell known being swapped in must come from the bard spell list.
Crawford has covered this in the sage advice compendium.
For reference, tweets are not considered official rulings. Tweets from Jeremy Crawford are considered possible additions to official rulings, but it's not an official ruling until it appears in either Errata or the Sage Advice Compendium.
Taking spells via magical secrets is only limited choosing a spell of a level the bard can cast. Swapping the spell out for a new spell still follows the rule in the spellcasting section. I can learn fireball on a 6th level lore bard via extra secrets, and change that for glibness at 15th level if I want.
They can only change a spell once level that usually happens once every few months. How is that over powered? Do you level every session?
The potential problem is that they could get a new, max-level exotic (read: non-Bard) spell EVERY level if they wanted, instead of a one-time choice of two exotic fixed-level spells every four levels. And with multiple Magical Secrets, the problem would just compound.
A Lore Bard gets Additional Magical Secrets at level 6, so normally by level 9 has a new 5th-level Bard spell, can upgrade a lower-level Bard spell to a 5th-level Bard spell, and has two exotic 3rd-level spells. Then at level 10, he gets two new, exotic 5th level spells and moves on, winding up with two exotic 5th-level and two exotic 3rd-level spells.
With this houserule, that same level 9 Lore Bard now has a new 5th-level Bard spell, a new 5th-level exotic spell (because why wouldn't you?), and an exotic 4th-level spell (previously upgraded.) THEN at level 10, he gets two MORE exotic 5th-level spells, and can upgrade the exotic 4th-level spell, and winds up with four exotic 5th-level spells. ALL of which he can ALSO later upgrade for ANY OTHER HIGHER-LEVEL SPELL HE WANTS.
If you're okay with that, more power to you, but personally, I'd expect to see the usage of all spellcasters besides Bards see a noticeable drop in my campaigns if I ruled that.
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche* - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
it seems clear to me that you replace them with any other spell, not just bard spells. Anything else seems foolish.
That said, I find most of the time you choose a spell that is from any school you tend to have really good options that are not worth replacing. The whole idea of Magical Secrets is you get the best spells -- so they should all be good till level 20 anyway. Two at 10th (5th or lower), 14 (7th or lower) and two at 18 (9th or lower)
Common spell choices at 10th are:
Anti Life, Circle of Power, Counterspell, Temporal Shunt, Wall of Force.
Note that Counterspell is not even a 5th level spell. These spells are good till level 20.
Obviously players can run their games as they like. But RAW, you're NOT allowed to replace them with just any other spell, only other Bard spells.
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche* - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Holy necropost, Batman. This thread is 5 years old and had had no replies for more than a year.
That said, Magical Secrets lets you learn spells from other classes and those spells are considered Bard spells for you. Bards are allowed to change a spell when they level up and are allowed to change any of the spells they have learned with spells from the Bard spell list when doing so. So while you can change the spells you've learned through Magical Secrets, you would not be at liberty to change them with spells from another class' spell list.