In my current campaign I'm playing a Goblin, which allows me to disengage as a bonus action. So in order to have a solid melee spell just in case anyone got too close to me I actually used a magical secrets slot to learn Booming Blade. It was a fun flavor spell and actually gave me an excuse to use my character's nice magic sword that I otherwise would never have a reason to use. Although I swapped it for something else when I eventually just multi-classed into Warlock... I think I dropped it for Telepathic Bond.
I always felt taking a cantrip for a magical secret would feel like a waste since you can dip one level into a class or take spell sniper/magic initiate. Especially if you weren't a lore bard and you forgo the first set of secrets at 10. There are so many interesting choices.
Magical secrets makes it a bard spell for the character, however, and doesn't cost in level delays for higher level spells or abilities.
The bard spell might or migh not be relevant, but the level delay is very significant. I would rather access high level abilities sooner over splashing a level for a low level ability I can already grab via secrets.
Feats are worse in delays waiting five more levels for another feat. Resilience or war caster and ASI's tend to be important competition for feats.
I've used magical secrets for shillelagh to avoid MAD, for example.
I think it all depends on the person. I played a swords bard to level 11 multiclassed with 4 levels of battlemaster fighter and I didn't feel lacking. I waited till Swords Bard level 6 to multiclass fighter that way by level 10 I would have battle maneuvers and sword flourishes both recharging on short rest. Spell choices were geared towards out of combat utility. It was a fun character to play. I agree that delaying some class features can be significant if the payoff isn't equal or greater. Multiclassing Warlock 1 gives you hexblade for SAD and Warlock 2 gives you some fun invocations. Mask of many faces would be crazy with a bards ability for deception. You gain a lot for a low level commitment and when you do get the eventual ASI and magical secrets you have the ability to get something that compliments your build. I think finding a good synergy trumps delaying some of the bard abilities.
I had to dig through my spell list to remember everything I grabbed with magical secrets as a Lore Bard, so I figured I might as well share them.
Picked up Scorching Ray... it's a solid lower-level spell that scales up pretty well. Pairs great with Hex, which I nabbed through Warlock multiclassing.
Counterspell, of course... it's saved all our lives more than once.
Telepathic Bond has proven immensely valuable... makes espionage so much easier.
Sunbeam was picked up because we were running into a lot of fiends and even some vampires in this campaign, plus it's nice to have an AOE spell that can be repeated multiple times using just one spell slot. Although it can be tricky sometimes to avoid hitting my allies with it.
Crown of Stars rounds things out, with a similar reasoning as I had for Sunbeam. It's not concentration, so while it does eat up a bonus action each round, it lasts an hour without any chance of losing it. Proved insanely useful when trapped in a shadow dimension of some kind fighting demons.
In my current campaign I'm playing a Goblin, which allows me to disengage as a bonus action. So in order to have a solid melee spell just in case anyone got too close to me I actually used a magical secrets slot to learn Booming Blade. It was a fun flavor spell and actually gave me an excuse to use my character's nice magic sword that I otherwise would never have a reason to use. Although I swapped it for something else when I eventually just multi-classed into Warlock... I think I dropped it for Telepathic Bond.
I always felt taking a cantrip for a magical secret would feel like a waste since you can dip one level into a class or take spell sniper/magic initiate. Especially if you weren't a lore bard and you forgo the first set of secrets at 10. There are so many interesting choices.
Magical secrets makes it a bard spell for the character, however, and doesn't cost in level delays for higher level spells or abilities.
The bard spell might or migh not be relevant, but the level delay is very significant. I would rather access high level abilities sooner over splashing a level for a low level ability I can already grab via secrets.
Feats are worse in delays waiting five more levels for another feat. Resilience or war caster and ASI's tend to be important competition for feats.
I've used magical secrets for shillelagh to avoid MAD, for example.
I think it all depends on the person. I played a swords bard to level 11 multiclassed with 4 levels of battlemaster fighter and I didn't feel lacking. I waited till Swords Bard level 6 to multiclass fighter that way by level 10 I would have battle maneuvers and sword flourishes both recharging on short rest. Spell choices were geared towards out of combat utility. It was a fun character to play. I agree that delaying some class features can be significant if the payoff isn't equal or greater. Multiclassing Warlock 1 gives you hexblade for SAD and Warlock 2 gives you some fun invocations. Mask of many faces would be crazy with a bards ability for deception. You gain a lot for a low level commitment and when you do get the eventual ASI and magical secrets you have the ability to get something that compliments your build. I think finding a good synergy trumps delaying some of the bard abilities.
It's not just bard abilities. It's access to higher level spells.
The argument is being made to splash/MC for a cantrip like booming blade so as to use magical secrets for higher level spells but it's a catch-22 because doing so delays every higher level spell and magical secrets in order to add that cantrip.
That's counter productive to the intent, IMO. It's giving up access to higher level spells (via level delay and cap) in order to protect access to higher level spells (via secrets).
Synergy is a thing and DnD does not require eaking out advantage to play, but the premise of giving up access to higher level spells in order to not give up access to higher level spells seems a bit flawed, no? ;-)
I like to steal Ranger spells like "Steel Wind Strike" or "Swift Quiver" so I can cast them at Level 10 where the Ranger in the party has to wait until level 17. Totally balanced.
It is because spell levels have nothing to do with character levels. Just because a spell might typically be exclusive to a class doesn't change that.
Unless you think spells half casters share with full casters are somehow more powerful because of the higher character level. Magic secrets just shares the spell list a bit.
Well yes and no - I am fairly confident a few of the "half-caster" spells were desinged specifically for that class without thought being given into another class using them. That's how you end up with Bards attacking 4 times at level 10 where fighters attack twice (the class built on attacking things)
I like to steal Ranger spells like "Steel Wind Strike" or "Swift Quiver" so I can cast them at Level 10 where the Ranger in the party has to wait until level 17. Totally balanced.
It is because spell levels have nothing to do with character levels. Just because a spell might typically be exclusive to a class doesn't change that.
Unless you think spells half casters share with full casters are somehow more powerful because of the higher character level. Magic secrets just shares the spell list a bit.
Well yes and no - I am fairly confident a few of the "half-caster" spells were desinged specifically for that class without thought being given into another class using them. That's how you end up with Bards attacking 4 times at level 10 where fighters attack twice (the class built on attacking things)
There's a lot wrong with that assessment. It's using the bonus action, for starters, which is fairly easy to add with a fighter. It's only adding on attack over using a typical bonus action. That can be done using haste instead for more benfits.
Swift quiver's real benefit is unlimited ammo or not needing that other source of a bonus action attack.
The bard using haste and a different source for the bonus action attack would have 4 attacks, more benefits, and more spell slots to do it. Lore grants that to a fighter at 6th level.
Heck, it's only one more level and fighters have 4 attacks, while open hand monks are making 4 attacks at 5th level using flurry to proc their abilies.
A 5th level spell is a 5th level spell. Your condfidence is baseless. ;-)
I like to steal Ranger spells like "Steel Wind Strike" or "Swift Quiver" so I can cast them at Level 10 where the Ranger in the party has to wait until level 17. Totally balanced.
It is because spell levels have nothing to do with character levels. Just because a spell might typically be exclusive to a class doesn't change that.
Unless you think spells half casters share with full casters are somehow more powerful because of the higher character level. Magic secrets just shares the spell list a bit.
Well yes and no - I am fairly confident a few of the "half-caster" spells were desinged specifically for that class without thought being given into another class using them. That's how you end up with Bards attacking 4 times at level 10 where fighters attack twice (the class built on attacking things)
There's a lot wrong with that assessment. It's using the bonus action, for starters, which is fairly easy to add with a fighter. It's only adding on attack over using a typical bonus action. That can be done using haste instead for more benfits.
Swift quiver's real benefit is unlimited ammo or not needing that other source of a bonus action attack.
The bard using haste and a different source for the bonus action attack would have 4 attacks, more benefits, and more spell slots to do it. Lore grants that to a fighter at 6th level.
Heck, it's only one more level and fighters have 4 attacks, while open hand monks are making 4 attacks at 5th level using flurry to proc their abilies.
A 5th level spell is a 5th level spell. Your condfidence is baseless. ;-)
I like to steal Ranger spells like "Steel Wind Strike" or "Swift Quiver" so I can cast them at Level 10 where the Ranger in the party has to wait until level 17. Totally balanced.
It is because spell levels have nothing to do with character levels. Just because a spell might typically be exclusive to a class doesn't change that.
Unless you think spells half casters share with full casters are somehow more powerful because of the higher character level. Magic secrets just shares the spell list a bit.
Well yes and no - I am fairly confident a few of the "half-caster" spells were desinged specifically for that class without thought being given into another class using them. That's how you end up with Bards attacking 4 times at level 10 where fighters attack twice (the class built on attacking things)
There's a lot wrong with that assessment. It's using the bonus action, for starters, which is fairly easy to add with a fighter. It's only adding on attack over using a typical bonus action. That can be done using haste instead for more benfits.
Swift quiver's real benefit is unlimited ammo or not needing that other source of a bonus action attack.
The bard using haste and a different source for the bonus action attack would have 4 attacks, more benefits, and more spell slots to do it. Lore grants that to a fighter at 6th level.
Heck, it's only one more level and fighters have 4 attacks, while open hand monks are making 4 attacks at 5th level using flurry to proc their abilies.
A 5th level spell is a 5th level spell. Your condfidence is baseless. ;-)
Maybe you should open your PHB. Fighter's get 3 attacks when they take the attack action at level 11 - They don't get 4 attacks until level 20.
Also there is no such thing as a "Lore fighter" so your level 6 assement doesn't make sense? Unless you were thinking of a Lore Bard, but a Lore Bard never gets an extra attack so even with Haste it would still be 2 attacks (which a Sword or Valor Bard gets at L6 anyway)
Level 10 Sword Bard with SQ - Attack Action = Two Attacks , can add 1d10 of damage as well if Sword Bard. Bonus Action with SQ 2 more attacks.
So in a 1v1 with a Fighter or Ranger at level 10 - The bard will be attacking more than the fighter or ranger. Bards be strong.
I like to steal Ranger spells like "Steel Wind Strike" or "Swift Quiver" so I can cast them at Level 10 where the Ranger in the party has to wait until level 17. Totally balanced.
It is because spell levels have nothing to do with character levels. Just because a spell might typically be exclusive to a class doesn't change that.
Unless you think spells half casters share with full casters are somehow more powerful because of the higher character level. Magic secrets just shares the spell list a bit.
Well yes and no - I am fairly confident a few of the "half-caster" spells were desinged specifically for that class without thought being given into another class using them. That's how you end up with Bards attacking 4 times at level 10 where fighters attack twice (the class built on attacking things)
There's a lot wrong with that assessment. It's using the bonus action, for starters, which is fairly easy to add with a fighter. It's only adding on attack over using a typical bonus action. That can be done using haste instead for more benfits.
Swift quiver's real benefit is unlimited ammo or not needing that other source of a bonus action attack.
The bard using haste and a different source for the bonus action attack would have 4 attacks, more benefits, and more spell slots to do it. Lore grants that to a fighter at 6th level.
Heck, it's only one more level and fighters have 4 attacks, while open hand monks are making 4 attacks at 5th level using flurry to proc their abilies.
A 5th level spell is a 5th level spell. Your condfidence is baseless. ;-)
I like to steal Ranger spells like "Steel Wind Strike" or "Swift Quiver" so I can cast them at Level 10 where the Ranger in the party has to wait until level 17. Totally balanced.
It is because spell levels have nothing to do with character levels. Just because a spell might typically be exclusive to a class doesn't change that.
Unless you think spells half casters share with full casters are somehow more powerful because of the higher character level. Magic secrets just shares the spell list a bit.
Well yes and no - I am fairly confident a few of the "half-caster" spells were desinged specifically for that class without thought being given into another class using them. That's how you end up with Bards attacking 4 times at level 10 where fighters attack twice (the class built on attacking things)
There's a lot wrong with that assessment. It's using the bonus action, for starters, which is fairly easy to add with a fighter. It's only adding on attack over using a typical bonus action. That can be done using haste instead for more benfits.
Swift quiver's real benefit is unlimited ammo or not needing that other source of a bonus action attack.
The bard using haste and a different source for the bonus action attack would have 4 attacks, more benefits, and more spell slots to do it. Lore grants that to a fighter at 6th level.
Heck, it's only one more level and fighters have 4 attacks, while open hand monks are making 4 attacks at 5th level using flurry to proc their abilies.
A 5th level spell is a 5th level spell. Your condfidence is baseless. ;-)
Maybe you should open your PHB. Fighter's get 3 attacks when they take the attack action at level 11 - They don't get 4 attacks until level 20.
Also there is no such thing as a "Lore fighter" so your level 6 assement doesn't make sense? Unless you were thinking of a Lore Bard, but a Lore Bard never gets an extra attack so even with Haste it would still be 2 attacks (which a Sword or Valor Bard gets at L6 anyway)
Level 10 Sword Bard with SQ - Attack Action = Two Attacks , can add 1d10 of damage as well if Sword Bard. Bonus Action with SQ 2 more attacks.
So in a 1v1 with a Fighter or Ranger at level 10 - The bard will be attacking more than the fighter or ranger. Bards be strong.
Fighters can attack with a bonus action too. That's 4 atracks at 11th level.
The lore bard is granting the fighter or any other class with extra attack up to 4 atracks at 6th level by granting haste on someone else because the bonus action exists as a possibility already. Did you miss the part where characters are usually in a party? ;-)
That doesn't need to be a lore bard. It could be a 5th level wizard or sorcerer granting that 4th attack. Magical secrets lets bards do something wizards and sorcerers are doing already.
I can just take animate objects to create a lot of attacks at 9th level on a bard using a bard spell instead of wasting secrets a level later for less attacks.
The only thing your example demonstrated is that secrets can allow for an exclusive spell from a half caster list earlier than the half caster. That's no different than any shared spell and doesn't mean the exclusive spell is not really of the level listed.
You are comparing 2 v 1 instead of 1v1 ... And the only way a fighter can use their bonus action to attack is with an off handed weapon. By your logic someone could also cast haste on me meaning I still attack more....
Playing my first Bard that has had a long lasting campaign and will be closing in on this soon. She is more of a swashbuckling type fighter and I thought Steel Wind Strike and Blink would be fun after multi-classing to Rogue to make sneak attack interesting in a group fight.
I selected the Lore Bard path so for my Magical Secrets at 6th level I wish to get Counterspell and Fireball. I know Fireball is a situational spell because so many monsters have Fire Resistance / Immunity, but it is the iconic D&D spell and I believe I will be able to use it to cut down on Minions, which I hope will be much less likely to have fire resistance, unless the DM chooses to homebrew them. The opportunity to use Counterspell at level six sounds awesome.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I took guidance and beacon of hope for my two initial spells. An at-will skill check bonus has saved my party many times even if it is only a d4. It's also fun giving useless advice along with it (remember, lift with you legs).
Same goes with beacon of hope, letting our healers do max possible healing (and will save advantage) prevented at least two tpk's in my current campaign.
You are comparing 2 v 1 instead of 1v1 ... And the only way a fighter can use their bonus action to attack is with an off handed weapon. By your logic someone could also cast haste on me meaning I still attack more....
Partially, maybe, when it comes to 6th level, but it'a a party being optimized in such a statement. A person can argue the 2v1 but applyung 2v1 with swift quiver doesn't increase the number of attacks while maintaining apples to apples.
The fighter with the bonus action attack in an archer build is doing it with bonus feats to include crossbow expertise and sharpshooter. TWF is just an alternative option for the number of atracks. Polearm mastery would also work.
The argument that adding swift quiver is OP using secrets because it's a ranger spell was invalidated when I pointed out the same bard could pick up the same number of attacks in a lower level slot by picking up haste instead, and haste also adds AC and movement too. It's the same concentration cost and uses the bonus action attack also from crossbow expertise, twf, or some other source. Plus haste can be handed out.
It's also invalidated because spells are rated for roughly equivalent power levels by spell level independently of character level. It's in the beginning of the PHB section on magic for reference.
i have wanted to ask this for soo long but i have put of making the post for awhile so i guess you beat me to it, i have never gotten to lvl 10 myself but i have had a lot off time to make bard builds based on this feature alone
anyways i think that the spell infernal calling fits well with your expertise feature, and that conjure woodland beings migth also fit the theme of an bard, whilst also letting you y'a know summon some beautiful creatures for some *ahem* intimate contact. swift quiver, tensers transformation, banishing smite and find greater steed are also great options for melee bards, especially the mount of free horse.
As previously stated getting counterspell is also probably a good option, as is any completely unexpected or seemingly useless spells lie grasping vine.
lastly divine word is an absolute powerhouse of an spell for 14th level bards that lets them delete several weak monster, it plus polymorph can just like power word kill murder almost anything with ease
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You are comparing 2 v 1 instead of 1v1 ... And the only way a fighter can use their bonus action to attack is with an off handed weapon. By your logic someone could also cast haste on me meaning I still attack more....
Partially, maybe, when it comes to 6th level, but it'a a party being optimized in such a statement. A person can argue the 2v1 but applyung 2v1 with swift quiver doesn't increase the number of attacks while maintaining apples to apples.
The fighter with the bonus action attack in an archer build is doing it with bonus feats to include crossbow expertise and sharpshooter. TWF is just an alternative option for the number of atracks. Polearm mastery would also work.
The argument that adding swift quiver is OP using secrets because it's a ranger spell was invalidated when I pointed out the same bard could pick up the same number of attacks in a lower level slot by picking up haste instead, and haste also adds AC and movement too. It's the same concentration cost and uses the bonus action attack also from crossbow expertise, twf, or some other source. Plus haste can be handed out.
It's also invalidated because spells are rated for roughly equivalent power levels by spell level independently of character level. It's in the beginning of the PHB section on magic for reference.
actiually, the swift quiver spell allows you to make two ranged attacks with a single bonus action, wereas haste has an prerequisite were the single additional action per turn can only be used to make a single attack, not multiple, still haste might be better due to added versatillity
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You are comparing 2 v 1 instead of 1v1 ... And the only way a fighter can use their bonus action to attack is with an off handed weapon. By your logic someone could also cast haste on me meaning I still attack more....
Partially, maybe, when it comes to 6th level, but it'a a party being optimized in such a statement. A person can argue the 2v1 but applyung 2v1 with swift quiver doesn't increase the number of attacks while maintaining apples to apples.
The fighter with the bonus action attack in an archer build is doing it with bonus feats to include crossbow expertise and sharpshooter. TWF is just an alternative option for the number of atracks. Polearm mastery would also work.
The argument that adding swift quiver is OP using secrets because it's a ranger spell was invalidated when I pointed out the same bard could pick up the same number of attacks in a lower level slot by picking up haste instead, and haste also adds AC and movement too. It's the same concentration cost and uses the bonus action attack also from crossbow expertise, twf, or some other source. Plus haste can be handed out.
It's also invalidated because spells are rated for roughly equivalent power levels by spell level independently of character level. It's in the beginning of the PHB section on magic for reference.
actiually, the swift quiver spell allows you to make two ranged attacks with a single bonus action, wereas haste has an prerequisite were the single additional action per turn can only be used to make a single attack, not multiple, still haste might be better due to added versatillity
I know that.
The point was swift quiver uses the bonus action and concentration. Using the same bonus action from another source plus the same concentratration with haste also gives 2 bonus attacks but with a lower level more versatile spell. Therefore using secrets for swiftquiver cannot possibly be OP just because it's normally exclusive to rangers.
You are comparing 2 v 1 instead of 1v1 ... And the only way a fighter can use their bonus action to attack is with an off handed weapon. By your logic someone could also cast haste on me meaning I still attack more....
Partially, maybe, when it comes to 6th level, but it'a a party being optimized in such a statement. A person can argue the 2v1 but applyung 2v1 with swift quiver doesn't increase the number of attacks while maintaining apples to apples.
The fighter with the bonus action attack in an archer build is doing it with bonus feats to include crossbow expertise and sharpshooter. TWF is just an alternative option for the number of atracks. Polearm mastery would also work.
The argument that adding swift quiver is OP using secrets because it's a ranger spell was invalidated when I pointed out the same bard could pick up the same number of attacks in a lower level slot by picking up haste instead, and haste also adds AC and movement too. It's the same concentration cost and uses the bonus action attack also from crossbow expertise, twf, or some other source. Plus haste can be handed out.
It's also invalidated because spells are rated for roughly equivalent power levels by spell level independently of character level. It's in the beginning of the PHB section on magic for reference.
actiually, the swift quiver spell allows you to make two ranged attacks with a single bonus action, wereas haste has an prerequisite were the single additional action per turn can only be used to make a single attack, not multiple, still haste might be better due to added versatillity
I know that.
The point was swift quiver uses the bonus action and concentration. Using the same bonus action from another source plus the same concentratration with haste also gives 2 bonus attacks but with a lower level more versatile spell. Therefore using secrets for swiftquiver cannot possibly be OP just because it's normally exclusive to rangers.
That seems pretty obvious.
of course yes, your point still stands, it is still an balanced spell even in the hands of an bard, perhaps even a bit underpowered but hey if you are an archery based valor bard it might be worth a try, of course also if you are not an valor bard or an sword bard you might be better of picking up some other spell, notably the 6th level spell tensers transformation
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You are comparing 2 v 1 instead of 1v1 ... And the only way a fighter can use their bonus action to attack is with an off handed weapon. By your logic someone could also cast haste on me meaning I still attack more....
Partially, maybe, when it comes to 6th level, but it'a a party being optimized in such a statement. A person can argue the 2v1 but applyung 2v1 with swift quiver doesn't increase the number of attacks while maintaining apples to apples.
The fighter with the bonus action attack in an archer build is doing it with bonus feats to include crossbow expertise and sharpshooter. TWF is just an alternative option for the number of atracks. Polearm mastery would also work.
The argument that adding swift quiver is OP using secrets because it's a ranger spell was invalidated when I pointed out the same bard could pick up the same number of attacks in a lower level slot by picking up haste instead, and haste also adds AC and movement too. It's the same concentration cost and uses the bonus action attack also from crossbow expertise, twf, or some other source. Plus haste can be handed out.
It's also invalidated because spells are rated for roughly equivalent power levels by spell level independently of character level. It's in the beginning of the PHB section on magic for reference.
actiually, the swift quiver spell allows you to make two ranged attacks with a single bonus action, wereas haste has an prerequisite were the single additional action per turn can only be used to make a single attack, not multiple, still haste might be better due to added versatillity
I know that.
The point was swift quiver uses the bonus action and concentration. Using the same bonus action from another source plus the same concentratration with haste also gives 2 bonus attacks but with a lower level more versatile spell. Therefore using secrets for swiftquiver cannot possibly be OP just because it's normally exclusive to rangers.
That seems pretty obvious.
of course yes, your point still stands, it is still an balanced spell even in the hands of an bard, perhaps even a bit underpowered but hey if you are an archery based valor bard it might be worth a try, of course also if you are not an valor bard or an sword bard you might be better of picking up some other spell, notably the 6th level spell tensers transformation
There are so many good spells it's hard to pick, lol. I usually have raise dead and greater restoration for 5th level spells. Animate objects is a strong way to go for extra attacks with a bonus action and doesn't require secrets at all. ;-)
Tensor's transformation leaves a level of exhaustion on a failed save, duplictates extra attack, and gives proficienciy for armor that needs to be carried and donned for the spell. I have not tried it on a bard but the spell doesn't appeal to me enough.
You are comparing 2 v 1 instead of 1v1 ... And the only way a fighter can use their bonus action to attack is with an off handed weapon. By your logic someone could also cast haste on me meaning I still attack more....
Partially, maybe, when it comes to 6th level, but it'a a party being optimized in such a statement. A person can argue the 2v1 but applyung 2v1 with swift quiver doesn't increase the number of attacks while maintaining apples to apples.
The fighter with the bonus action attack in an archer build is doing it with bonus feats to include crossbow expertise and sharpshooter. TWF is just an alternative option for the number of atracks. Polearm mastery would also work.
The argument that adding swift quiver is OP using secrets because it's a ranger spell was invalidated when I pointed out the same bard could pick up the same number of attacks in a lower level slot by picking up haste instead, and haste also adds AC and movement too. It's the same concentration cost and uses the bonus action attack also from crossbow expertise, twf, or some other source. Plus haste can be handed out.
It's also invalidated because spells are rated for roughly equivalent power levels by spell level independently of character level. It's in the beginning of the PHB section on magic for reference.
actiually, the swift quiver spell allows you to make two ranged attacks with a single bonus action, wereas haste has an prerequisite were the single additional action per turn can only be used to make a single attack, not multiple, still haste might be better due to added versatillity
I know that.
The point was swift quiver uses the bonus action and concentration. Using the same bonus action from another source plus the same concentratration with haste also gives 2 bonus attacks but with a lower level more versatile spell. Therefore using secrets for swiftquiver cannot possibly be OP just because it's normally exclusive to rangers.
That seems pretty obvious.
of course yes, your point still stands, it is still an balanced spell even in the hands of an bard, perhaps even a bit underpowered but hey if you are an archery based valor bard it might be worth a try, of course also if you are not an valor bard or an sword bard you might be better of picking up some other spell, notably the 6th level spell tensers transformation
There are so many good spells it's hard to pick, lol. I usually have raise dead and greater restoration for 5th level spells. Animate objects is a strong way to go for extra attacks with a bonus action and doesn't require secrets at all. ;-)
Tensor's transformation leaves a level of exhaustion on a failed save, duplictates extra attack, and gives proficienciy for armor that needs to be carried and donned for the spell. I have not tried it on a bard but the spell doesn't appeal to me enough.
ah yes but consider this: find greater steed, and then use true polymorph on your CR 2 steed to turn it into a CR 2 centaur, any spell that targets only you also targets steed, so you get to double dip since your centaur buddy can weild weapons, get a bunch of lances for the heck of it and yeah probably suboptimal but defenetly fun
also this post is about the magical secrets feature, the one that allows you to steal any spell from any spell list, those 5th level spells are all from the bard list...
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You are comparing 2 v 1 instead of 1v1 ... And the only way a fighter can use their bonus action to attack is with an off handed weapon. By your logic someone could also cast haste on me meaning I still attack more....
Partially, maybe, when it comes to 6th level, but it'a a party being optimized in such a statement. A person can argue the 2v1 but applyung 2v1 with swift quiver doesn't increase the number of attacks while maintaining apples to apples.
The fighter with the bonus action attack in an archer build is doing it with bonus feats to include crossbow expertise and sharpshooter. TWF is just an alternative option for the number of atracks. Polearm mastery would also work.
The argument that adding swift quiver is OP using secrets because it's a ranger spell was invalidated when I pointed out the same bard could pick up the same number of attacks in a lower level slot by picking up haste instead, and haste also adds AC and movement too. It's the same concentration cost and uses the bonus action attack also from crossbow expertise, twf, or some other source. Plus haste can be handed out.
It's also invalidated because spells are rated for roughly equivalent power levels by spell level independently of character level. It's in the beginning of the PHB section on magic for reference.
actiually, the swift quiver spell allows you to make two ranged attacks with a single bonus action, wereas haste has an prerequisite were the single additional action per turn can only be used to make a single attack, not multiple, still haste might be better due to added versatillity
I know that.
The point was swift quiver uses the bonus action and concentration. Using the same bonus action from another source plus the same concentratration with haste also gives 2 bonus attacks but with a lower level more versatile spell. Therefore using secrets for swiftquiver cannot possibly be OP just because it's normally exclusive to rangers.
That seems pretty obvious.
of course yes, your point still stands, it is still an balanced spell even in the hands of an bard, perhaps even a bit underpowered but hey if you are an archery based valor bard it might be worth a try, of course also if you are not an valor bard or an sword bard you might be better of picking up some other spell, notably the 6th level spell tensers transformation
There are so many good spells it's hard to pick, lol. I usually have raise dead and greater restoration for 5th level spells. Animate objects is a strong way to go for extra attacks with a bonus action and doesn't require secrets at all. ;-)
Tensor's transformation leaves a level of exhaustion on a failed save, duplictates extra attack, and gives proficienciy for armor that needs to be carried and donned for the spell. I have not tried it on a bard but the spell doesn't appeal to me enough.
ah yes but consider this: find greater steed, and then use true polymorph on your CR 2 steed to turn it into a CR 2 centaur, any spell that targets only you also targets steed, so you get to double dip since your centaur buddy can weild weapons, get a bunch of lances for the heck of it and yeah probably suboptimal but defenetly fun
also this post is about the magical secrets feature, the one that allows you to steal any spell from any spell list, those 5th level spells are all from the bard list...
That's because bard spells are included in the spells available to magical secrets. Magical secrets is any list including bard, and at 10th level when it becomes available there is no other way to pick up more of those 5th level bard spells.
I would not skip good bard spells with secrets just because I can also use secrets for other lists. I need to add those good spells somehow too. ;-)
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I think it all depends on the person. I played a swords bard to level 11 multiclassed with 4 levels of battlemaster fighter and I didn't feel lacking. I waited till Swords Bard level 6 to multiclass fighter that way by level 10 I would have battle maneuvers and sword flourishes both recharging on short rest. Spell choices were geared towards out of combat utility. It was a fun character to play. I agree that delaying some class features can be significant if the payoff isn't equal or greater. Multiclassing Warlock 1 gives you hexblade for SAD and Warlock 2 gives you some fun invocations. Mask of many faces would be crazy with a bards ability for deception. You gain a lot for a low level commitment and when you do get the eventual ASI and magical secrets you have the ability to get something that compliments your build. I think finding a good synergy trumps delaying some of the bard abilities.
Your secret is safe with my indifference - Percy
I had to dig through my spell list to remember everything I grabbed with magical secrets as a Lore Bard, so I figured I might as well share them.
Picked up Scorching Ray... it's a solid lower-level spell that scales up pretty well. Pairs great with Hex, which I nabbed through Warlock multiclassing.
Counterspell, of course... it's saved all our lives more than once.
Telepathic Bond has proven immensely valuable... makes espionage so much easier.
Sunbeam was picked up because we were running into a lot of fiends and even some vampires in this campaign, plus it's nice to have an AOE spell that can be repeated multiple times using just one spell slot. Although it can be tricky sometimes to avoid hitting my allies with it.
Crown of Stars rounds things out, with a similar reasoning as I had for Sunbeam. It's not concentration, so while it does eat up a bonus action each round, it lasts an hour without any chance of losing it. Proved insanely useful when trapped in a shadow dimension of some kind fighting demons.
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It's not just bard abilities. It's access to higher level spells.
The argument is being made to splash/MC for a cantrip like booming blade so as to use magical secrets for higher level spells but it's a catch-22 because doing so delays every higher level spell and magical secrets in order to add that cantrip.
That's counter productive to the intent, IMO. It's giving up access to higher level spells (via level delay and cap) in order to protect access to higher level spells (via secrets).
Synergy is a thing and DnD does not require eaking out advantage to play, but the premise of giving up access to higher level spells in order to not give up access to higher level spells seems a bit flawed, no? ;-)
Well yes and no - I am fairly confident a few of the "half-caster" spells were desinged specifically for that class without thought being given into another class using them. That's how you end up with Bards attacking 4 times at level 10 where fighters attack twice (the class built on attacking things)
There's a lot wrong with that assessment. It's using the bonus action, for starters, which is fairly easy to add with a fighter. It's only adding on attack over using a typical bonus action. That can be done using haste instead for more benfits.
Swift quiver's real benefit is unlimited ammo or not needing that other source of a bonus action attack.
The bard using haste and a different source for the bonus action attack would have 4 attacks, more benefits, and more spell slots to do it. Lore grants that to a fighter at 6th level.
Heck, it's only one more level and fighters have 4 attacks, while open hand monks are making 4 attacks at 5th level using flurry to proc their abilies.
A 5th level spell is a 5th level spell. Your condfidence is baseless. ;-)
Maybe you should open your PHB. Fighter's get 3 attacks when they take the attack action at level 11 - They don't get 4 attacks until level 20.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/fighter
Also there is no such thing as a "Lore fighter" so your level 6 assement doesn't make sense? Unless you were thinking of a Lore Bard, but a Lore Bard never gets an extra attack so even with Haste it would still be 2 attacks (which a Sword or Valor Bard gets at L6 anyway)
Level 10 Sword Bard with SQ - Attack Action = Two Attacks , can add 1d10 of damage as well if Sword Bard. Bonus Action with SQ 2 more attacks.
So in a 1v1 with a Fighter or Ranger at level 10 - The bard will be attacking more than the fighter or ranger. Bards be strong.
Fighters can attack with a bonus action too. That's 4 atracks at 11th level.
The lore bard is granting the fighter or any other class with extra attack up to 4 atracks at 6th level by granting haste on someone else because the bonus action exists as a possibility already. Did you miss the part where characters are usually in a party? ;-)
That doesn't need to be a lore bard. It could be a 5th level wizard or sorcerer granting that 4th attack. Magical secrets lets bards do something wizards and sorcerers are doing already.
I can just take animate objects to create a lot of attacks at 9th level on a bard using a bard spell instead of wasting secrets a level later for less attacks.
The only thing your example demonstrated is that secrets can allow for an exclusive spell from a half caster list earlier than the half caster. That's no different than any shared spell and doesn't mean the exclusive spell is not really of the level listed.
You are comparing 2 v 1 instead of 1v1 ... And the only way a fighter can use their bonus action to attack is with an off handed weapon. By your logic someone could also cast haste on me meaning I still attack more....
Talk about detailing a topic. Calm Emotions seems like a solid pick now.
Playing my first Bard that has had a long lasting campaign and will be closing in on this soon. She is more of a swashbuckling type fighter and I thought Steel Wind Strike and Blink would be fun after multi-classing to Rogue to make sneak attack interesting in a group fight.
I selected the Lore Bard path so for my Magical Secrets at 6th level I wish to get Counterspell and Fireball. I know Fireball is a situational spell because so many monsters have Fire Resistance / Immunity, but it is the iconic D&D spell and I believe I will be able to use it to cut down on Minions, which I hope will be much less likely to have fire resistance, unless the DM chooses to homebrew them. The opportunity to use Counterspell at level six sounds awesome.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I took guidance and beacon of hope for my two initial spells. An at-will skill check bonus has saved my party many times even if it is only a d4. It's also fun giving useless advice along with it (remember, lift with you legs).
Same goes with beacon of hope, letting our healers do max possible healing (and will save advantage) prevented at least two tpk's in my current campaign.
Partially, maybe, when it comes to 6th level, but it'a a party being optimized in such a statement. A person can argue the 2v1 but applyung 2v1 with swift quiver doesn't increase the number of attacks while maintaining apples to apples.
The fighter with the bonus action attack in an archer build is doing it with bonus feats to include crossbow expertise and sharpshooter. TWF is just an alternative option for the number of atracks. Polearm mastery would also work.
The argument that adding swift quiver is OP using secrets because it's a ranger spell was invalidated when I pointed out the same bard could pick up the same number of attacks in a lower level slot by picking up haste instead, and haste also adds AC and movement too. It's the same concentration cost and uses the bonus action attack also from crossbow expertise, twf, or some other source. Plus haste can be handed out.
It's also invalidated because spells are rated for roughly equivalent power levels by spell level independently of character level. It's in the beginning of the PHB section on magic for reference.
i have wanted to ask this for soo long but i have put of making the post for awhile so i guess you beat me to it, i have never gotten to lvl 10 myself but i have had a lot off time to make bard builds based on this feature alone
anyways i think that the spell infernal calling fits well with your expertise feature, and that conjure woodland beings migth also fit the theme of an bard, whilst also letting you y'a know summon some beautiful creatures for some *ahem* intimate contact. swift quiver, tensers transformation, banishing smite and find greater steed are also great options for melee bards, especially the mount of free horse.
As previously stated getting counterspell is also probably a good option, as is any completely unexpected or seemingly useless spells lie grasping vine.
lastly divine word is an absolute powerhouse of an spell for 14th level bards that lets them delete several weak monster, it plus polymorph can just like power word kill murder almost anything with ease
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
actiually, the swift quiver spell allows you to make two ranged attacks with a single bonus action, wereas haste has an prerequisite were the single additional action per turn can only be used to make a single attack, not multiple, still haste might be better due to added versatillity
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I know that.
The point was swift quiver uses the bonus action and concentration. Using the same bonus action from another source plus the same concentratration with haste also gives 2 bonus attacks but with a lower level more versatile spell. Therefore using secrets for swiftquiver cannot possibly be OP just because it's normally exclusive to rangers.
That seems pretty obvious.
of course yes, your point still stands, it is still an balanced spell even in the hands of an bard, perhaps even a bit underpowered but hey if you are an archery based valor bard it might be worth a try, of course also if you are not an valor bard or an sword bard you might be better of picking up some other spell, notably the 6th level spell tensers transformation
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
There are so many good spells it's hard to pick, lol. I usually have raise dead and greater restoration for 5th level spells. Animate objects is a strong way to go for extra attacks with a bonus action and doesn't require secrets at all. ;-)
Tensor's transformation leaves a level of exhaustion on a failed save, duplictates extra attack, and gives proficienciy for armor that needs to be carried and donned for the spell. I have not tried it on a bard but the spell doesn't appeal to me enough.
ah yes but consider this: find greater steed, and then use true polymorph on your CR 2 steed to turn it into a CR 2 centaur, any spell that targets only you also targets steed, so you get to double dip since your centaur buddy can weild weapons, get a bunch of lances for the heck of it and yeah probably suboptimal but defenetly fun
also this post is about the magical secrets feature, the one that allows you to steal any spell from any spell list, those 5th level spells are all from the bard list...
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That's because bard spells are included in the spells available to magical secrets. Magical secrets is any list including bard, and at 10th level when it becomes available there is no other way to pick up more of those 5th level bard spells.
I would not skip good bard spells with secrets just because I can also use secrets for other lists. I need to add those good spells somehow too. ;-)