In a session last night my party - consisting of a Bard 1 / Sorc 1 (Sord) multi, a Warlock 2 and a Paladin 2 - ended up in a battle against 4 opponents which were a Cleric, a wizard, and 2 half orc fighters of unknown level.
Because of the situation we were in, nobody had armour, one of the half orcs had made an improvised shiv and our Paladin had picked up a rock.
The Sord used Bane on the 2 enemy casters and biggest of the fighters and landed it on the three and while it made a slight difference, but they were still hitting our Paladin. It was my first experience with using Bane and proper debuffing (Bane giving -1d4 to attacks and saving throws combined with vicious mockery to give disadvantage), and using bardic inspiration to buff the paladin. From the online guides, this combination seemed like it should have been much more effective at stopping the majority of incoming attacks on the Paladin, So I was slightly disappointed. Would it be more down to the fact that the Paladin only had a 10 AC due to no dex bonus? Was I expecting miracles at that point? The party won, but only because of the Bard moving to a couple of direct attacks with Chaos bolt and a fortunate double 2 on the D8's combined with the Warlocks EB while the Paladin soaked up a boatload of damage protecting the 2 party casters and played smash face with his rock.
The party levelled up at the end of the session, is it worth keeping Bane and trying to make the buff/debuff theme work, or swapping it out?
Oh yea. Bane is a mandatory spell for my bard. I think your problem was the "without armor" problem. If your paladin was wearing chain, carrying a shield and was swinging a longsword, the Bane makes him almost unhitable except by a nat 20. The Warlock and Bard get their dex bonuses but they're going to be in the AC=14 range so Bane might be a big help or not. It is very near a random +1-4 improvement in AC and that can be a lifesaver. One thing to remember is once Bane is on a group of enemy, target the other enemy more to help get the maximum advantage from Bane.
Your encounter sounded pretty tough. Three level 2 characters against four other characters. If those characters were only level 2 then that was a deadly encounter and the initiative roll could have made the difference. The other team had three fighters (the cleric can wear armor and swing a mace) and you had only one, but with two smites at least. At level 1, 2 and 3 all characters need to be prepared to enter melee combat. Without terrain to help, you guys were in a tough spot. I bet you needed all ten of your paladin's heal points.
Do you have Dissonant Whispers? Using that after Bane could have allowed you to take one of the half-orcs (preferably the one not Baned) out of the fight, and might have killed him outright. If engaged, you get opportunity attacks on top of everything else.
Thank you :) that was pretty much what I thought then. It looks like we got the tactics wrong though as the Warlock and my Bard firstly wanted to focus on the cleric who was healing the leader, then targeted the leader which was the half orc (both of whom had been hit by the Bane spell). It was a really tough fight but the only one of the session so we weren't worried about unleashing with everything we had which was nice, and yes at one point our Paladin had to use lay on hands to heal himself. My Bard didn't have Dissonant Whispers but the Warlock did and used it, I used Chaos Bolt - which I loved, and was able to take out the mage after it jumped to him from the half orc leader. I rolled 2 on both D8's and was really disappointed for a moment and was like what a waste of a spell slot before realising it meant I could hit someone else, and with the Cleric down the next most dangerous target I thought was the Wizard. In hind sight I should have used Bane on the 2 Fighters and the Cleric, I just thought the Wizard using fire bolt to attack us was more deadly than the other 3.
Last night's session we were able to escape our captors and get some gear back. The Bane and vicious mockery combination worked awesomely for the most part. Though it had one draw back - once they realised it was my character all the enemy ranged guys focused their fire on me - I guess they didn't like having their 'incompetency at archery' being rubbed in their faces constantly :) while the melee were attacking the Paladin. That left the Warlock relatively unhindered to blast away.
It is great that you were supporting the party so well and obviously the encounter worked out. I guess you are still level 2, right? So while you are using VM you may also give your Paladin bardic Inspiration as a bonus action if it looks like he needs it. Later you will often "hold" your BAs for a reaction like Cutting Words. Early on, I would give out BA for that "one strike" attack such as a buffed weapon or a rogue's sneak attack, but then I wouldn't just spread them out unless it appeared necessary. Giving a Paladin a BA when he can make a two-handed attack on a boss and throw in a Smite can be very helpful. Now, he might hit or miss to a degree that one BA die won't change anything, but early on and extra d6 can really help.
But the bad news is you were so effective you got to help the party a second time, after debuffing the enemies, by taking the ranged damage. Sounds like your Warlock owes you a round of drinks after that battle.
Now that you're second level, remind your players that you can give out a Song of Rest; extra HP per short rest. And after the Song of Rest, grab a pen and paper and compose a ballad or an epic poem of your exploits. Enjoy the bard because he's the best RP figure in the whole lot.
Incidentally, many bards will use light crossbow rather than VM because it does more damage, but the extra benefit of disadvantage makes VM a better choice in many cases. In addition, VM is more of a signature ability. I often fire my crossbow once per battle because there are other things I prefer over just "shoot my crossbow."
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
The party is 3rd level but I started out with 1 level of Celestial Sorcerer and now have 2 levels of Bard (my plan had been to try a Sor-tomelock 17/3 build but another player created a Warlock so I adjusted my plan). I actually forgot to use Inspiration, It's my first time playing a bard, I used my bonus action to cast Healing word a couple of times. We used song of rest to help heal up after the fight as I blew all but 1 spell slot. I upcast sleep (took out 3 enemy combatants) and then Bane using my 2 level 2 slots, and had cast Mage armour before the fight, plus 2 slots on HW, leaving me a single 1st level slot for cure wounds on myself if needed as an emergency. It was tough, the DM told us that the fight was rated as a hard challenge on the encounter building tool he is trying out. I loved it though, it was a good fight, and the other 2 got to explore their subclass abilities.I liked using VM just wished the damage was a little higher frostbite gives disadvantage to and does 1d6 - I guess it's because very few creatures get to resist psychic damage. I was taunting their archers about their appalling accuracy - which was as a result of my bane spell...
I am still trying to decide now if I want to go Lore subclass or one of Valour / Swords next level.
Well, I am partial to Lore Bards, so I am not a fair advisor on the subject. If you want to go into melee then you kinda have to go Swords or Valor. Swords seems to be the 'power build of choice' for melee bards. I don't have experience to advise you on this. Lore Bards get Cutting Words, a very handy option, and extra Magic Secrets. That is also a big deal for me. My last observation is that you have a small group with only one 'fighter class' player. It may be hard for you not to build for a high degree of melee action. Whichever way you go, you need to start thinking several levels ahead, because when you get your Level 3 you need to choose a college and at Level 4 & 8 you need to decide if you're going to bump an ability score or take a feat. I bumped Chr at level 4. I haven't decided if I'm going to take a feat or bump an ability score again at level 8 (if I ever get there). Covid has brought my main game to a halt.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I have a 19 Charisma and a 17 dex from stat rolls and race bonus so going to bump them at 4 and then feats after that. It would be crazy not to. I know Swords would be the logical choice and going for a dex melee build would be the best from a mechanical perspective but I just really like the feel of a lore bard and fits with the idea of a buffer/debuffer and spell blaster. I think I am just going to have to wing it a little and see how the next few sessions pan out. If it is very combat heavy then realistically swords might be my only option. Having a +6 con save is going to help with that, but then will need to add warcaster to my feat selection.
I agree that you should get the ASI on Chr and Dex if you don't have an extraordinary compelling reason to get a feat. A +6 Con save?
It sounds like you're very lucky. I was told to use point buy on Cadenza and he started with a 16 Chr and a 14 Dex, after racial bonuses. I took the +2 Chr at level 4. I'll probably take ASI at level 8 as well.
For Con saves, I believe the Tough Feat is really great.
I am inclined to agree with you that you may need to go Swords just because you have a small party. Good luck.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Thank you, yes +6 Con save from a 16 stat and +2 prof bonus from taking Sorc at level 1, and a +1 ring of protection. I got lucky with dice rolls, had two 17's and a 16 and with a race bonus of +2 Charisma, so I went for 17 Dex, 16 Con and put the other 17 into Charisma for a 19.
Swords is kinda boring though - mage armour gets me the same AC as medium armour without a shield. Two weapon style gives me 1d6+4 twice which is slightly higher than a cantrip at the moment, but won't increase by much whereas the cantrip damage will - so it's a bit meh, and will be redundant in a few levels anyway. Valour would get me medium plus shield and martial weapons so I could use a rapier for a d8+4 but that is also a bit meh. Getting 3 extra skills, expertise and early access to magical secrets seems far more fun. Although College of Spirits seems very interesting as well.
Swords seems to be the 'power build of choice' for melee bards.
The swords advantage is a personal use for bardic inspiration, plus a weapon as a focus. The problem is it's a spell caster who gets abilities attached to the attack action and the abilities compete with giving out BI dice (cutting words has the same issue).
I don't like it. Bards cast spells so swords abilities only working with attack actions seems a counterproductive conflict.
Valor proficiencies gained give the AC benefit (which can be traded for damage) while still casting spells and BI dice to give out improve. I find valor better than swords for the party.
Swords is kinda boring though - mage armour gets me the same AC as medium armour without a shield. Two weapon style gives me 1d6+4 twice which is slightly higher than a cantrip at the moment, but won't increase by much whereas the cantrip damage will - so it's a bit meh, and will be redundant in a few levels anyway. Valour would get me medium plus shield and martial weapons so I could use a rapier for a d8+4 but that is also a bit meh. Getting 3 extra skills, expertise and early access to magical secrets seems far more fun. Although College of Spirits seems very interesting as well.
Eloquence and glamour are strong social class options. Swords and valor gain a lot more damage than cantrips because of extra attack (valor can trade the shield for GWM damage because of proficiency too).
If spells and skills are the focus then lore is the way to go.
Lore and valor are the best colleges, IMO. Whispers rubs me the wrong way.
Glamour and Eloquence aren't really fitting for the game style or party composition though, plus not really fitting my character. Ideally I wanted to go for a lore bard and be the skill monkey and focus on buffing and debuffing in battle. The biggest issue with starting with a level of Sorc is the total lack of weapon choices. The only finesse weapon they get is dagger, and I don't intend on going into melee in studded leather and a dagger. So if I try to pick up the melee role (already the skill, social, healer, and buff/debuff) I will be poor at it, and spreading extra thin. I prefer to focus on just a couple so lore bard is ideal. The new spirit college though seems really interesting and I have spoken to the DM who also agrees. I can think of so many exciting ways to use the spell focus options as part of vicious mockery and so on.
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In a session last night my party - consisting of a Bard 1 / Sorc 1 (Sord) multi, a Warlock 2 and a Paladin 2 - ended up in a battle against 4 opponents which were a Cleric, a wizard, and 2 half orc fighters of unknown level.
Because of the situation we were in, nobody had armour, one of the half orcs had made an improvised shiv and our Paladin had picked up a rock.
The Sord used Bane on the 2 enemy casters and biggest of the fighters and landed it on the three and while it made a slight difference, but they were still hitting our Paladin. It was my first experience with using Bane and proper debuffing (Bane giving -1d4 to attacks and saving throws combined with vicious mockery to give disadvantage), and using bardic inspiration to buff the paladin. From the online guides, this combination seemed like it should have been much more effective at stopping the majority of incoming attacks on the Paladin, So I was slightly disappointed. Would it be more down to the fact that the Paladin only had a 10 AC due to no dex bonus? Was I expecting miracles at that point? The party won, but only because of the Bard moving to a couple of direct attacks with Chaos bolt and a fortunate double 2 on the D8's combined with the Warlocks EB while the Paladin soaked up a boatload of damage protecting the 2 party casters and played smash face with his rock.
The party levelled up at the end of the session, is it worth keeping Bane and trying to make the buff/debuff theme work, or swapping it out?
Oh yea. Bane is a mandatory spell for my bard. I think your problem was the "without armor" problem. If your paladin was wearing chain, carrying a shield and was swinging a longsword, the Bane makes him almost unhitable except by a nat 20. The Warlock and Bard get their dex bonuses but they're going to be in the AC=14 range so Bane might be a big help or not. It is very near a random +1-4 improvement in AC and that can be a lifesaver. One thing to remember is once Bane is on a group of enemy, target the other enemy more to help get the maximum advantage from Bane.
Your encounter sounded pretty tough. Three level 2 characters against four other characters. If those characters were only level 2 then that was a deadly encounter and the initiative roll could have made the difference. The other team had three fighters (the cleric can wear armor and swing a mace) and you had only one, but with two smites at least. At level 1, 2 and 3 all characters need to be prepared to enter melee combat. Without terrain to help, you guys were in a tough spot. I bet you needed all ten of your paladin's heal points.
Do you have Dissonant Whispers? Using that after Bane could have allowed you to take one of the half-orcs (preferably the one not Baned) out of the fight, and might have killed him outright. If engaged, you get opportunity attacks on top of everything else.
Good luck.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Thank you :) that was pretty much what I thought then. It looks like we got the tactics wrong though as the Warlock and my Bard firstly wanted to focus on the cleric who was healing the leader, then targeted the leader which was the half orc (both of whom had been hit by the Bane spell). It was a really tough fight but the only one of the session so we weren't worried about unleashing with everything we had which was nice, and yes at one point our Paladin had to use lay on hands to heal himself. My Bard didn't have Dissonant Whispers but the Warlock did and used it, I used Chaos Bolt - which I loved, and was able to take out the mage after it jumped to him from the half orc leader. I rolled 2 on both D8's and was really disappointed for a moment and was like what a waste of a spell slot before realising it meant I could hit someone else, and with the Cleric down the next most dangerous target I thought was the Wizard. In hind sight I should have used Bane on the 2 Fighters and the Cleric, I just thought the Wizard using fire bolt to attack us was more deadly than the other 3.
Last night's session we were able to escape our captors and get some gear back. The Bane and vicious mockery combination worked awesomely for the most part. Though it had one draw back - once they realised it was my character all the enemy ranged guys focused their fire on me - I guess they didn't like having their 'incompetency at archery' being rubbed in their faces constantly :) while the melee were attacking the Paladin. That left the Warlock relatively unhindered to blast away.
Well, that sounds like good news and bad news.
It is great that you were supporting the party so well and obviously the encounter worked out. I guess you are still level 2, right? So while you are using VM you may also give your Paladin bardic Inspiration as a bonus action if it looks like he needs it. Later you will often "hold" your BAs for a reaction like Cutting Words. Early on, I would give out BA for that "one strike" attack such as a buffed weapon or a rogue's sneak attack, but then I wouldn't just spread them out unless it appeared necessary. Giving a Paladin a BA when he can make a two-handed attack on a boss and throw in a Smite can be very helpful. Now, he might hit or miss to a degree that one BA die won't change anything, but early on and extra d6 can really help.
But the bad news is you were so effective you got to help the party a second time, after debuffing the enemies, by taking the ranged damage. Sounds like your Warlock owes you a round of drinks after that battle.
Now that you're second level, remind your players that you can give out a Song of Rest; extra HP per short rest. And after the Song of Rest, grab a pen and paper and compose a ballad or an epic poem of your exploits. Enjoy the bard because he's the best RP figure in the whole lot.
Incidentally, many bards will use light crossbow rather than VM because it does more damage, but the extra benefit of disadvantage makes VM a better choice in many cases. In addition, VM is more of a signature ability. I often fire my crossbow once per battle because there are other things I prefer over just "shoot my crossbow."
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
The party is 3rd level but I started out with 1 level of Celestial Sorcerer and now have 2 levels of Bard (my plan had been to try a Sor-tomelock 17/3 build but another player created a Warlock so I adjusted my plan). I actually forgot to use Inspiration, It's my first time playing a bard, I used my bonus action to cast Healing word a couple of times. We used song of rest to help heal up after the fight as I blew all but 1 spell slot. I upcast sleep (took out 3 enemy combatants) and then Bane using my 2 level 2 slots, and had cast Mage armour before the fight, plus 2 slots on HW, leaving me a single 1st level slot for cure wounds on myself if needed as an emergency. It was tough, the DM told us that the fight was rated as a hard challenge on the encounter building tool he is trying out. I loved it though, it was a good fight, and the other 2 got to explore their subclass abilities.I liked using VM just wished the damage was a little higher frostbite gives disadvantage to and does 1d6 - I guess it's because very few creatures get to resist psychic damage. I was taunting their archers about their appalling accuracy - which was as a result of my bane spell...
I am still trying to decide now if I want to go Lore subclass or one of Valour / Swords next level.
Well, I am partial to Lore Bards, so I am not a fair advisor on the subject. If you want to go into melee then you kinda have to go Swords or Valor. Swords seems to be the 'power build of choice' for melee bards. I don't have experience to advise you on this. Lore Bards get Cutting Words, a very handy option, and extra Magic Secrets. That is also a big deal for me. My last observation is that you have a small group with only one 'fighter class' player. It may be hard for you not to build for a high degree of melee action. Whichever way you go, you need to start thinking several levels ahead, because when you get your Level 3 you need to choose a college and at Level 4 & 8 you need to decide if you're going to bump an ability score or take a feat. I bumped Chr at level 4. I haven't decided if I'm going to take a feat or bump an ability score again at level 8 (if I ever get there). Covid has brought my main game to a halt.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I have a 19 Charisma and a 17 dex from stat rolls and race bonus so going to bump them at 4 and then feats after that. It would be crazy not to. I know Swords would be the logical choice and going for a dex melee build would be the best from a mechanical perspective but I just really like the feel of a lore bard and fits with the idea of a buffer/debuffer and spell blaster. I think I am just going to have to wing it a little and see how the next few sessions pan out. If it is very combat heavy then realistically swords might be my only option. Having a +6 con save is going to help with that, but then will need to add warcaster to my feat selection.
I agree that you should get the ASI on Chr and Dex if you don't have an extraordinary compelling reason to get a feat. A +6 Con save?
It sounds like you're very lucky. I was told to use point buy on Cadenza and he started with a 16 Chr and a 14 Dex, after racial bonuses. I took the +2 Chr at level 4. I'll probably take ASI at level 8 as well.
For Con saves, I believe the Tough Feat is really great.
I am inclined to agree with you that you may need to go Swords just because you have a small party. Good luck.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Thank you, yes +6 Con save from a 16 stat and +2 prof bonus from taking Sorc at level 1, and a +1 ring of protection. I got lucky with dice rolls, had two 17's and a 16 and with a race bonus of +2 Charisma, so I went for 17 Dex, 16 Con and put the other 17 into Charisma for a 19.
Swords is kinda boring though - mage armour gets me the same AC as medium armour without a shield. Two weapon style gives me 1d6+4 twice which is slightly higher than a cantrip at the moment, but won't increase by much whereas the cantrip damage will - so it's a bit meh, and will be redundant in a few levels anyway. Valour would get me medium plus shield and martial weapons so I could use a rapier for a d8+4 but that is also a bit meh. Getting 3 extra skills, expertise and early access to magical secrets seems far more fun. Although College of Spirits seems very interesting as well.
The swords advantage is a personal use for bardic inspiration, plus a weapon as a focus. The problem is it's a spell caster who gets abilities attached to the attack action and the abilities compete with giving out BI dice (cutting words has the same issue).
I don't like it. Bards cast spells so swords abilities only working with attack actions seems a counterproductive conflict.
Valor proficiencies gained give the AC benefit (which can be traded for damage) while still casting spells and BI dice to give out improve. I find valor better than swords for the party.
Eloquence and glamour are strong social class options. Swords and valor gain a lot more damage than cantrips because of extra attack (valor can trade the shield for GWM damage because of proficiency too).
If spells and skills are the focus then lore is the way to go.
Lore and valor are the best colleges, IMO. Whispers rubs me the wrong way.
Glamour and Eloquence aren't really fitting for the game style or party composition though, plus not really fitting my character. Ideally I wanted to go for a lore bard and be the skill monkey and focus on buffing and debuffing in battle. The biggest issue with starting with a level of Sorc is the total lack of weapon choices. The only finesse weapon they get is dagger, and I don't intend on going into melee in studded leather and a dagger. So if I try to pick up the melee role (already the skill, social, healer, and buff/debuff) I will be poor at it, and spreading extra thin. I prefer to focus on just a couple so lore bard is ideal. The new spirit college though seems really interesting and I have spoken to the DM who also agrees. I can think of so many exciting ways to use the spell focus options as part of vicious mockery and so on.