I am going to do this anyway, because I’ve always been told and taught that role playing is more important by miles than optimization. With that out of the way, is it crazy to take catapult as one of my 6th level magical secrets? It just works very well with my characters RP but beyond that, taking a 1st level spell when I could take a 3rd level spell just bugs me a bit if I’m honest. However I’ve sort of justified it with its utility and always having a solid 1st level damage spell I can spam. Anyone have thoughts on this? Appreciate it in advance.
I wouldn't say that catapult is something you can exactly spam. You have to have something to hurl at a foe, and both the object and the target take damage. It has tremendous range and power, but there are limits. If there's nothing lying around to use, then you'll have to drop something and sacrifice it for the spell.
That said, even from a non-optimization standpoint, having spells that force different saving throws is a good idea. Different enemies have different weak points, and it's still a good idea to have a breadth of spells available. Tasha's hideous laughter and thunderwave, both found on the bard spell list, target Wisdom and Constitution, respectively. Catapult, which is not found on the bard's spell list, targets Dexterity. So does faerie fire, and that is found on their spell list. Bigger enemies tend to have poor Dexterity, so there you go.
But there are also plenty of good options. If you're 6th-level and have the spare gold (and why wouldn't you?), chromatic orb is a tempting option for a 1st-level spell for dealing damage. But so are 3rd-level spells like fireball and lightning bolt, or defensively-minded spells like blink. You can also cast rituals, so maybe Leomund's tiny hut or water breathing would be useful.
I don't think there's such a thing as a bad choice. Just be mindful of what it is you want to do and what would be useful to the party. You get two spells each time. You can afford to mix it up a little.
So just a little background so this doesn’t sound insane. I play in a pretty big group, I actually play with a bunch of people I do MMA and martial arts with. We all (Most of us) got started watching Critical Role so we’ve kind of made it a very big bi-monthly/monthly event. We never knew DnD could be different BUT we still have a blast and have a great DM with a lot of experience. We’ve always been very thematic with it, dressing up, acting out sword fights etc, most of us are martial artist and we use our gym to play so we get up and act stuff out if we want.
I played a paladin last campaign and I would sing for the group every now and again, this campaign everyone was like “you gotta play bard.” So my character now is ofc a bard, and I sing when I feel like singing in RP or whatever, he has a serious background and he is a serious character but I won’t get into all that. I don’t play instruments so I wanted to use telekinesis/animate objects to play instruments for me (and just use short instrumentals on my phone I never do like 3 minute performances lol). So Catapult kind of signifies to me the early development of that ability, also there are some other things with like marbles and stuff in his backstory that have some synergy with catapult but mostly it just fits well with his character.
If you’re truly interested I’ll give you the back story but I don’t wanna write a long post if you’re not interested, it’s pretty good though IMO! We have a creative table for a bunch of future CTE patients. The last campaign this girl played a character and her character died (before she could complete her big revenge plot which we were all invested in and it devastated us) and she played that characters daughter in the same campaign and it was awesome, so I kind of borrowed from that in a way with a beaten down character who just has no hope but slowly will gain the confidence to believe he has the friends and power now to find his child and discover the truth behind his past! I tried to make it as compact as possible with all of our players our GM doesn’t allow a bunch of complicated back stories.
I wouldn't say that catapult is something you can exactly spam. You have to have something to hurl at a foe, and both the object and the target take damage. It has tremendous range and power, but there are limits. If there's nothing lying around to use, then you'll have to drop something and sacrifice it for the spell.
That said, even from a non-optimization standpoint, having spells that force different saving throws is a good idea. Different enemies have different weak points, and it's still a good idea to have a breadth of spells available. Tasha's hideous laughter and thunderwave, both found on the bard spell list, target Wisdom and Constitution, respectively. Catapult, which is not found on the bard's spell list, targets Dexterity. So does faerie fire, and that is found on their spell list. Bigger enemies tend to have poor Dexterity, so there you go.
But there are also plenty of good options. If you're 6th-level and have the spare gold (and why wouldn't you?), chromatic orb is a tempting option for a 1st-level spell for dealing damage. But so are 3rd-level spells like fireball and lightning bolt, or defensively-minded spells like blink. You can also cast rituals, so maybe Leomund's tiny hut or water breathing would be useful.
I don't think there's such a thing as a bad choice. Just be mindful of what it is you want to do and what would be useful to the party. You get two spells each time. You can afford to mix it up a little.
Thank you so much for your input. As important as role playing is for our group we also don’t wanna play bad characters, we usually have over 5-6 players and we get tough challenges and we lose characters we get attached to. So yeah I plan on taking counterspell and catapult at 6th level.
My spell list I THINK will be fine, it’s my first time playing a spell caster like bard, as I said I played a pally to level 20 on my first ever campaign. I think I’ll end up with Vicious Mockery, Dissonant whispers, tashas hideous laughter, hypnotic pattern, Phantasmal Force, enemies abound, heat metal and ofc counterspell and catapult. Also going with more “on brand” skills like wall of force I believe and of course telekinesis and animate objects are must for me. I also really want find steed again because that was great, I’m sure I will have a lot to think about for my magical secrets in the later levels so that’s fun.
I am going to do this anyway, because I’ve always been told and taught that role playing is more important by miles than optimization. With that out of the way, is it crazy to take catapult as one of my 6th level magical secrets? It just works very well with my characters RP but beyond that, taking a 1st level spell when I could take a 3rd level spell just bugs me a bit if I’m honest. However I’ve sort of justified it with its utility and always having a solid 1st level damage spell I can spam. Anyone have thoughts on this? Appreciate it in advance.
Well it is not crazy as long as you have fun with it, but it is very much sub optimal. Not only are you picking a 1st level spell, you are picking a bad 1st level spell(a blast) . I guess there are situations when catapult will be better than dissonant whispers, but they are far in between, and i cant see it ever making much difference.
In short: If you need it for your concept, go ahead, but I wouldnt expect to find much mechanical use for IT.
There are definitely more useful spells, but I wouldn't knock Catapult, either. It is a means of doing damage, yes, but used creatively it is also a lower level telekinesis. Use it to deliver a payload of alchemist's fire, oil, ball bearings, caltrops (I combined the last three into a special recipe of pain). You can even use it to snatch loose items from the environment to shoot to a point just above your hand and drop harmlessly down into it.
Find steed is very very good for a slot efficient, long term, mount, but have you considered Phantom Steed? It's a ritual, so if you have a moment you can summon a horse with 100ft speed that, even if it dies, takes a minute to fade so you can just keep riding.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yeah, I’ve considered just about everything there is to consider I believe. I was sold on spirit guardians for a while, but concentration threw me off, but also I think I’m gonna be able to take the feat telekinetic so that’s like +1 to cha, invis 90ft mage hand and 5ft push pull against strength save and spirit guardians may have synergy there maybe? Haven’t thought it through.
Aura Of Vitality/Revivify is really the only things I could justify really now besides catapult but I keep selling myself on catapult as well. A 1st level spell, I’m not taking fireball or anything, I can at worst for my action and bonus action (depending on how dropping items is ruled hopefully that I can drop something as a free action) deal 3D8 and drop a bag of ball bearings at the feet of a target. I would think it would get ruled that the target takes the damage, and that on his turn he has to make the save because they are standing in the ball bearings.
I think that would be useful for a long time, especially if I get a free drop, as well as being able to use catapult in a bunch of different ways in RP and such. I honestly look at my 3rd level spell options and everything just seems underwhelming besides counterspell. I’ve been told conjure woodland beings or animals one would be good or animate dead or even find familiar, but I do want a damage option, there’s just too many times where it’s like “KILL IT KILL IT ITS SO LOW” and even though everyone is like “but bards not damage” those situations still happen. I would probably take fireball if it scaled better, but again fireball just never gets much use in a group as big as mine someone is always in the way.
Also the group is an assassin rogue, tempest cleric, wild magic sorc, gloom stalker ranger, oath of crown pally and me the bard In case anyone was wondering.
How open is your DM to using catapult in creative ways? As Ophidimancer mentioned, using it to deliver dangerous or disruptive materials (or both) makes Catapult a much more interesting spell. If your DM is going to work with you on launching ball bearings, alchemists fire and the like, then it will be a suboptimal but fun choice. If they rule that all you get is the initial damage and no further utility, I wouldn't bother, even if it's a perfect fit conceptually. It will just end up being really underwhelming, and I don't care what anyone says but everyone wants to feel good at their character's shtick. Even people that purposely make bad characters are making decisions to be good at their shtick, because their shtick is to be useless.
The thing about spells is they are so malleable. Things can be reflavored. Fireball can be flavored as mundane objects that you chuck and explode with magical energy. Melf's Minute Meteors could be similarly flavored and give you the chance to chuck things turn after turn. Conjure Barrage is a worse spell, but more direct in its translation to the flavor. I dunno, I'd personally go with one of those If I wanted to give my Bard an "I chuck random things at people's heads" routine.
Right thats a good point about re flavoring things. I ask and the rule with catapult is its 3D8 Bludgeoning no matter what you throw. If you throw like a bunch of ball bearings in parchment then they take 3D8 then have to make a save when they move. If you throw alchemist fire they take that Dmg if they’re in the fire at start of their turn, I guess ruling that the fire hits them but only effects the tile. It’s gonna also be a free action to drop a parchment of ball bearings but if I tried to drop a clay pot or glass container that it would then break so I’d have to use a bonus action to place something like that first.
I am honestly just confused now tbh lmao. Like 6th level magical secrets sounded so fun that’s why I went lore bard and for the telekinesis plays with cutting words but counterspell is the only thing speaking to me.
May just go with something fun like find steed (is the 3rd level one flying??) or conjure animals or animate dead or the conjure fey spell where you get all the pixies with polymorph. Animate Dead sounds fun but I worry I’d use a lot of spell slots memeing for useless skeingtons.
Personally, I think MMM is where it's at. Not the greatest spell of all time, but man is it cool. I think it reflavors perfectly into something you're looking for.
As for the steed spells...Find Steed is a solid option, and one I really like for a Lore Bard. Reminds me of the troubadours from Fire Emblem. I think there is a lot to say about splitting your magical secrets up between different levels of spells if you already have a number of options screaming your name at a particular level. For instance, the Bard already has a great combat warping spells at level 3 with hypnotic pattern and slow that could easily take most of your level 3 slots. I'm a huge fan of picking up a ritual spell for this reason as well.
Phantom Steed does not fly, but it is crazy fast. It isn't a reliable combat mount, but even one round of that mobility can be used to great effect. Considering it's a ritual, having it get targeted and take an enemy action is only upside when it comes to the tempo of combat. Phantom Steed is a fantastic spell.
Yeah great point about steed. Ritual spells would be extremely handy. MMM sounds really fun, however riding a mount does too. The character grew up around rich/nobles, so he has a more eloquent persona but he is of course a delinquent. So having him kind of jerry rig fancy things is extremely funny. I plan on messing with Tensors Transformation (which I believe is on the expanded bard spell list) as a lore bard just for that reason later on. He obviously sucks at “doing swords” but he has this complex that he is just a bit better than everyone else just because he grew up under the boot of a brat. I think that it’s super funny to make him threaten people with swords and physical harm then immediately drop them and start spell slinging when things get real.
Personally, I think MMM is where it's at. Not the greatest spell of all time, but man is it cool. I think it reflavors perfectly into something you're looking for.
As for the steed spells...Find Steed is a solid option, and one I really like for a Lore Bard. Reminds me of the troubadours from Fire Emblem. I think there is a lot to say about splitting your magical secrets up between different levels of spells if you already have a number of options screaming your name at a particular level. For instance, the Bard already has a great combat warping spells at level 3 with hypnotic pattern and slow that could easily take most of your level 3 slots. I'm a huge fan of picking up a ritual spell for this reason as well.
Phantom Steed does not fly, but it is crazy fast. It isn't a reliable combat mount, but even one round of that mobility can be used to great effect. Considering it's a ritual, having it get targeted and take an enemy action is only upside when it comes to the tempo of combat. Phantom Steed is a fantastic spell.
Another difference is that you can have more than one Phantom Steed at a time. You can put your entire party on Speed 100 horses.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Personally, I think MMM is where it's at. Not the greatest spell of all time, but man is it cool. I think it reflavors perfectly into something you're looking for.
As for the steed spells...Find Steed is a solid option, and one I really like for a Lore Bard. Reminds me of the troubadours from Fire Emblem. I think there is a lot to say about splitting your magical secrets up between different levels of spells if you already have a number of options screaming your name at a particular level. For instance, the Bard already has a great combat warping spells at level 3 with hypnotic pattern and slow that could easily take most of your level 3 slots. I'm a huge fan of picking up a ritual spell for this reason as well.
Phantom Steed does not fly, but it is crazy fast. It isn't a reliable combat mount, but even one round of that mobility can be used to great effect. Considering it's a ritual, having it get targeted and take an enemy action is only upside when it comes to the tempo of combat. Phantom Steed is a fantastic spell.
Another difference is that you can have more than one Phantom Steed at a time. You can put your entire party on Speed 100 horses.
Not in any practical way. It takes 10 minutes to cast a ritual, and it only lasts for an hour.
Before you pick one of the mount spells ask your DM how he rules mount movement. According to the developers (sage advice) you cant split the movement on your turn when riding a mount, and if your DM goes with that rule, I wouldnt bother. If they let you split the move, go for it, there are probably no better picks.
MMM is another bad pick i'd say. Do you really want another concentration spell, and with such a weak effect? Seems to me you want something you can "spam". Did you consider Tasha’s mind whip? It is a great spell and scales well with up casting, even.
I mean, you don't have to cast it as a ritual. You can have three people up and speeding away in three minutes. The rest will have to wait 11 minutes each. You can still have a party of five rendezvous ten miles away in an hour and twenty five minutes. Oh did you mean for combat? Yeah true, for combat it's probably not feasible to get more than one or two.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Ugh I can't stand that Sage Advice ruling. The essence of mounted combat is hacking and slashing at things as you ride past them. No one parks their horse next to someone and then attacks. Dumb.
But the thing is you're a lore bard. So you won't be making a lot of attacks. Staying mounted is more about the defensive utility of battlefield placement. But if your DM does adhere to that sage advice, then it becomes much less useful to hand out steeds to party mates in terms of combat. And while, yes, it usually isn't practical to outfit the whole team with mounts by spending 33-55 minutes casting a series of rituals, it is great to spend an extra eleven minutes to summon a second one and give it to the heavy hitting, but slow and plodding martial everyone has on their team. Also, you don't have to ride the steed yourself. Even if you only have time to cast one, you can just hand it to someone else depending on the situation. Even if they can't ride by attack, getting that Paladin or what-have-you effortlessly to the front line is still valuable.
Mounts definitely get worse if your DM follows that Sage Advice. I would rule out find steed if they do. But Phantom Steed is a ritual spell. The bar is much lower for an effect you never have to spend a spell slot on, and I believe it would still be an excellent addition even with the more restrictive ruling.
Erikkerik, MMM is Melf's Minute Meteors. Meant as a replacement for catapult with some reflavoring to provide a more powerful magical secret.
A regular riding horse can gallop for an hour and cover 12 miles, per the rules for mounts and vehicles. Yes, a phantom steed could cover 26 miles before expiring, using those same rules. But your proposal would still have the spellcaster burn through all of their 3rd-level spell slots. If the party all needs to get somewhere that fast, if things are that urgent and that dire, then they're going to need those spell slots when they arrive. It's akin to the DM giving the players an impossible choice. Now, just one rider? And the party buys time for them, slowing down pursers? That, I can see.
It's a powerful, 3rd-level spell, as it should be. But it's not that powerful.
If you're not under duress then you can set this all up with rituals and have the entire team riding on steeds whenever is convenient. Let's go with a five person party.
Step 1: Cast Phantom Steed 5 times, taking up 55 minutes. The first steed has 16 minutes of riding time left thanks to sitting there for 44 minutes while you cast four more rituals.
Step 2: Start Riding
Step 3: As soon as you start riding, begin casting another Phantom Steed as a ritual. It will complete with 5 minutes left on the first steed's timer.
Step 4: The person riding the first steed replaces their mount.
Step 5: Repeat ad nauseum until you reach your destination, replacing the Phantom Steeds as they cycle out of existence.
This doesn't work for a party of 6 or more, but whatever. The point is you CAN have your whole team on Phantom Steeds without spending spell slots and it's not unrealistic because the process can be set up at the beginning of the day when the team is waking up and prepping for the tasks to come.
I am going to do this anyway, because I’ve always been told and taught that role playing is more important by miles than optimization. With that out of the way, is it crazy to take catapult as one of my 6th level magical secrets? It just works very well with my characters RP but beyond that, taking a 1st level spell when I could take a 3rd level spell just bugs me a bit if I’m honest. However I’ve sort of justified it with its utility and always having a solid 1st level damage spell I can spam. Anyone have thoughts on this? Appreciate it in advance.
I wouldn't say that catapult is something you can exactly spam. You have to have something to hurl at a foe, and both the object and the target take damage. It has tremendous range and power, but there are limits. If there's nothing lying around to use, then you'll have to drop something and sacrifice it for the spell.
That said, even from a non-optimization standpoint, having spells that force different saving throws is a good idea. Different enemies have different weak points, and it's still a good idea to have a breadth of spells available. Tasha's hideous laughter and thunderwave, both found on the bard spell list, target Wisdom and Constitution, respectively. Catapult, which is not found on the bard's spell list, targets Dexterity. So does faerie fire, and that is found on their spell list. Bigger enemies tend to have poor Dexterity, so there you go.
But there are also plenty of good options. If you're 6th-level and have the spare gold (and why wouldn't you?), chromatic orb is a tempting option for a 1st-level spell for dealing damage. But so are 3rd-level spells like fireball and lightning bolt, or defensively-minded spells like blink. You can also cast rituals, so maybe Leomund's tiny hut or water breathing would be useful.
I don't think there's such a thing as a bad choice. Just be mindful of what it is you want to do and what would be useful to the party. You get two spells each time. You can afford to mix it up a little.
What is the rp of your character ?
So just a little background so this doesn’t sound insane. I play in a pretty big group, I actually play with a bunch of people I do MMA and martial arts with. We all (Most of us) got started watching Critical Role so we’ve kind of made it a very big bi-monthly/monthly event. We never knew DnD could be different BUT we still have a blast and have a great DM with a lot of experience. We’ve always been very thematic with it, dressing up, acting out sword fights etc, most of us are martial artist and we use our gym to play so we get up and act stuff out if we want.
I played a paladin last campaign and I would sing for the group every now and again, this campaign everyone was like “you gotta play bard.” So my character now is ofc a bard, and I sing when I feel like singing in RP or whatever, he has a serious background and he is a serious character but I won’t get into all that. I don’t play instruments so I wanted to use telekinesis/animate objects to play instruments for me (and just use short instrumentals on my phone I never do like 3 minute performances lol). So Catapult kind of signifies to me the early development of that ability, also there are some other things with like marbles and stuff in his backstory that have some synergy with catapult but mostly it just fits well with his character.
If you’re truly interested I’ll give you the back story but I don’t wanna write a long post if you’re not interested, it’s pretty good though IMO! We have a creative table for a bunch of future CTE patients. The last campaign this girl played a character and her character died (before she could complete her big revenge plot which we were all invested in and it devastated us) and she played that characters daughter in the same campaign and it was awesome, so I kind of borrowed from that in a way with a beaten down character who just has no hope but slowly will gain the confidence to believe he has the friends and power now to find his child and discover the truth behind his past! I tried to make it as compact as possible with all of our players our GM doesn’t allow a bunch of complicated back stories.
Thank you so much for your input. As important as role playing is for our group we also don’t wanna play bad characters, we usually have over 5-6 players and we get tough challenges and we lose characters we get attached to. So yeah I plan on taking counterspell and catapult at 6th level.
My spell list I THINK will be fine, it’s my first time playing a spell caster like bard, as I said I played a pally to level 20 on my first ever campaign. I think I’ll end up with Vicious Mockery, Dissonant whispers, tashas hideous laughter, hypnotic pattern, Phantasmal Force, enemies abound, heat metal and ofc counterspell and catapult. Also going with more “on brand” skills like wall of force I believe and of course telekinesis and animate objects are must for me. I also really want find steed again because that was great, I’m sure I will have a lot to think about for my magical secrets in the later levels so that’s fun.
Well it is not crazy as long as you have fun with it, but it is very much sub optimal. Not only are you picking a 1st level spell, you are picking a bad 1st level spell(a blast) . I guess there are situations when catapult will be better than dissonant whispers, but they are far in between, and i cant see it ever making much difference.
In short: If you need it for your concept, go ahead, but I wouldnt expect to find much mechanical use for IT.
There are definitely more useful spells, but I wouldn't knock Catapult, either. It is a means of doing damage, yes, but used creatively it is also a lower level telekinesis. Use it to deliver a payload of alchemist's fire, oil, ball bearings, caltrops (I combined the last three into a special recipe of pain). You can even use it to snatch loose items from the environment to shoot to a point just above your hand and drop harmlessly down into it.
Find steed is very very good for a slot efficient, long term, mount, but have you considered Phantom Steed? It's a ritual, so if you have a moment you can summon a horse with 100ft speed that, even if it dies, takes a minute to fade so you can just keep riding.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yeah, I’ve considered just about everything there is to consider I believe. I was sold on spirit guardians for a while, but concentration threw me off, but also I think I’m gonna be able to take the feat telekinetic so that’s like +1 to cha, invis 90ft mage hand and 5ft push pull against strength save and spirit guardians may have synergy there maybe? Haven’t thought it through.
Aura Of Vitality/Revivify is really the only things I could justify really now besides catapult but I keep selling myself on catapult as well. A 1st level spell, I’m not taking fireball or anything, I can at worst for my action and bonus action (depending on how dropping items is ruled hopefully that I can drop something as a free action) deal 3D8 and drop a bag of ball bearings at the feet of a target. I would think it would get ruled that the target takes the damage, and that on his turn he has to make the save because they are standing in the ball bearings.
I think that would be useful for a long time, especially if I get a free drop, as well as being able to use catapult in a bunch of different ways in RP and such. I honestly look at my 3rd level spell options and everything just seems underwhelming besides counterspell. I’ve been told conjure woodland beings or animals one would be good or animate dead or even find familiar, but I do want a damage option, there’s just too many times where it’s like “KILL IT KILL IT ITS SO LOW” and even though everyone is like “but bards not damage” those situations still happen. I would probably take fireball if it scaled better, but again fireball just never gets much use in a group as big as mine someone is always in the way.
Also the group is an assassin rogue, tempest cleric, wild magic sorc, gloom stalker ranger, oath of crown pally and me the bard In case anyone was wondering.
How open is your DM to using catapult in creative ways? As Ophidimancer mentioned, using it to deliver dangerous or disruptive materials (or both) makes Catapult a much more interesting spell. If your DM is going to work with you on launching ball bearings, alchemists fire and the like, then it will be a suboptimal but fun choice. If they rule that all you get is the initial damage and no further utility, I wouldn't bother, even if it's a perfect fit conceptually. It will just end up being really underwhelming, and I don't care what anyone says but everyone wants to feel good at their character's shtick. Even people that purposely make bad characters are making decisions to be good at their shtick, because their shtick is to be useless.
The thing about spells is they are so malleable. Things can be reflavored. Fireball can be flavored as mundane objects that you chuck and explode with magical energy. Melf's Minute Meteors could be similarly flavored and give you the chance to chuck things turn after turn. Conjure Barrage is a worse spell, but more direct in its translation to the flavor. I dunno, I'd personally go with one of those If I wanted to give my Bard an "I chuck random things at people's heads" routine.
Right thats a good point about re flavoring things. I ask and the rule with catapult is its 3D8 Bludgeoning no matter what you throw. If you throw like a bunch of ball bearings in parchment then they take 3D8 then have to make a save when they move. If you throw alchemist fire they take that Dmg if they’re in the fire at start of their turn, I guess ruling that the fire hits them but only effects the tile. It’s gonna also be a free action to drop a parchment of ball bearings but if I tried to drop a clay pot or glass container that it would then break so I’d have to use a bonus action to place something like that first.
I am honestly just confused now tbh lmao. Like 6th level magical secrets sounded so fun that’s why I went lore bard and for the telekinesis plays with cutting words but counterspell is the only thing speaking to me.
May just go with something fun like find steed (is the 3rd level one flying??) or conjure animals or animate dead or the conjure fey spell where you get all the pixies with polymorph. Animate Dead sounds fun but I worry I’d use a lot of spell slots memeing for useless skeingtons.
Also MMM has just given me new hope.
Personally, I think MMM is where it's at. Not the greatest spell of all time, but man is it cool. I think it reflavors perfectly into something you're looking for.
As for the steed spells...Find Steed is a solid option, and one I really like for a Lore Bard. Reminds me of the troubadours from Fire Emblem. I think there is a lot to say about splitting your magical secrets up between different levels of spells if you already have a number of options screaming your name at a particular level. For instance, the Bard already has a great combat warping spells at level 3 with hypnotic pattern and slow that could easily take most of your level 3 slots. I'm a huge fan of picking up a ritual spell for this reason as well.
Phantom Steed does not fly, but it is crazy fast. It isn't a reliable combat mount, but even one round of that mobility can be used to great effect. Considering it's a ritual, having it get targeted and take an enemy action is only upside when it comes to the tempo of combat. Phantom Steed is a fantastic spell.
Yeah great point about steed. Ritual spells would be extremely handy. MMM sounds really fun, however riding a mount does too. The character grew up around rich/nobles, so he has a more eloquent persona but he is of course a delinquent. So having him kind of jerry rig fancy things is extremely funny. I plan on messing with Tensors Transformation (which I believe is on the expanded bard spell list) as a lore bard just for that reason later on. He obviously sucks at “doing swords” but he has this complex that he is just a bit better than everyone else just because he grew up under the boot of a brat. I think that it’s super funny to make him threaten people with swords and physical harm then immediately drop them and start spell slinging when things get real.
Another difference is that you can have more than one Phantom Steed at a time. You can put your entire party on Speed 100 horses.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Not in any practical way. It takes 10 minutes to cast a ritual, and it only lasts for an hour.
Before you pick one of the mount spells ask your DM how he rules mount movement. According to the developers (sage advice) you cant split the movement on your turn when riding a mount, and if your DM goes with that rule, I wouldnt bother. If they let you split the move, go for it, there are probably no better picks.
MMM is another bad pick i'd say. Do you really want another concentration spell, and with such a weak effect? Seems to me you want something you can "spam". Did you consider Tasha’s mind whip? It is a great spell and scales well with up casting, even.
I mean, you don't have to cast it as a ritual. You can have three people up and speeding away in three minutes. The rest will have to wait 11 minutes each. You can still have a party of five rendezvous ten miles away in an hour and twenty five minutes. Oh did you mean for combat? Yeah true, for combat it's probably not feasible to get more than one or two.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Ugh I can't stand that Sage Advice ruling. The essence of mounted combat is hacking and slashing at things as you ride past them. No one parks their horse next to someone and then attacks. Dumb.
But the thing is you're a lore bard. So you won't be making a lot of attacks. Staying mounted is more about the defensive utility of battlefield placement. But if your DM does adhere to that sage advice, then it becomes much less useful to hand out steeds to party mates in terms of combat. And while, yes, it usually isn't practical to outfit the whole team with mounts by spending 33-55 minutes casting a series of rituals, it is great to spend an extra eleven minutes to summon a second one and give it to the heavy hitting, but slow and plodding martial everyone has on their team. Also, you don't have to ride the steed yourself. Even if you only have time to cast one, you can just hand it to someone else depending on the situation. Even if they can't ride by attack, getting that Paladin or what-have-you effortlessly to the front line is still valuable.
Mounts definitely get worse if your DM follows that Sage Advice. I would rule out find steed if they do. But Phantom Steed is a ritual spell. The bar is much lower for an effect you never have to spend a spell slot on, and I believe it would still be an excellent addition even with the more restrictive ruling.
Erikkerik, MMM is Melf's Minute Meteors. Meant as a replacement for catapult with some reflavoring to provide a more powerful magical secret.
A regular riding horse can gallop for an hour and cover 12 miles, per the rules for mounts and vehicles. Yes, a phantom steed could cover 26 miles before expiring, using those same rules. But your proposal would still have the spellcaster burn through all of their 3rd-level spell slots. If the party all needs to get somewhere that fast, if things are that urgent and that dire, then they're going to need those spell slots when they arrive. It's akin to the DM giving the players an impossible choice. Now, just one rider? And the party buys time for them, slowing down pursers? That, I can see.
It's a powerful, 3rd-level spell, as it should be. But it's not that powerful.
If you're not under duress then you can set this all up with rituals and have the entire team riding on steeds whenever is convenient. Let's go with a five person party.
Step 1: Cast Phantom Steed 5 times, taking up 55 minutes. The first steed has 16 minutes of riding time left thanks to sitting there for 44 minutes while you cast four more rituals.
Step 2: Start Riding
Step 3: As soon as you start riding, begin casting another Phantom Steed as a ritual. It will complete with 5 minutes left on the first steed's timer.
Step 4: The person riding the first steed replaces their mount.
Step 5: Repeat ad nauseum until you reach your destination, replacing the Phantom Steeds as they cycle out of existence.
This doesn't work for a party of 6 or more, but whatever. The point is you CAN have your whole team on Phantom Steeds without spending spell slots and it's not unrealistic because the process can be set up at the beginning of the day when the team is waking up and prepping for the tasks to come.