So I'm playing a tortle spores druid in a play by post. What are some fun tactics to use for this subclass? For cantrips I took Create bonfire and Guidance. Are there any interesting combos I can pull off? I was thinking Create Bonfire and Shell defense could work; flaming Sphere at level 3. Are there any others?
I've got a spore druid NPC named Freya in my back pocket that I really want to use as a recurring enemy. Spores (and Lore Bards) are the only ones to get Animate Dead and Conjure Animals and that's what Freya is all about. Conjuring Giant Bats, she'll have her Skeleton army mount them and serve as aerial units harassing with bow and arrow. When trying to ambush the party she'll make liberal use of Pass without Trace to get her undead in position. As she becomes more powerful she'll employ cloudkill while sending a mob of zombies directly into the fray, taking full advantage of their immuntity to poison. Being able to combine Animate Dead with the great selection of druid battlefield control spells is exactly where I want to be with the subclass.
Also, in case ya don't know, the temporary hitpoints from symbiotic entity lasts until you take a long rest, unlike the rest of the bonuses which have a much shorter window. This means you can activate it once well before combat and still have a nice buffer of temp hp once things get heavy. You lose out on some bonus damage, but the action economy saved is generally worth it.
You definitely have the right idea with Flaming Sphere. It matches up well when you are looking to active symbiotic entity mid-combat. The best timing is not overly intuitive though. I think it's best to cast the concentration spell turn 1 while hanging back a bit to establish damage and control. Then on turn 2 you activate entity, use your bonus action on your concentation spell and think about using your movement to help hold the line. From there you can go attack + spell bonus action + spore reaction if you can manage to hold concentration. It's a nice low level routine for sure. I'd definitely consider heat metal as well depending on what kind of enemies you generally face. Dust Devil doesn't get much love but I think it's an interesting spell with some nice tactical applications if you care more about control than damage in the situation.
If multiclass is a possibility, I suggest making what I call the "Sporcerer". 3 levels sorcerer, 5+ levels druid. Quicken spell solves a lot of your problems with activating symbiotic entity. And sorc gives you access to booming blade and shield (which helps keep SE going).
Spores Druids are the best Druid user of Shillelagh, if that’s the path you want to go. If you take Polearm Master you can get up to 3 attacks per round, each of which benefit from your Symbiotic Entity transformation. With being a Tortle as well, you have no need for much investment in either strength or dex, letting you focus Wisdom with a Constitution secondary.
I HIGHLY advise against doing polearm master + shillelagh. PAM requires your bonus action, and that conflicts with shillelagh, spreading spores, AND commanding your zombies/summoned creatures. Beyond that, you're looking at having to waste every first round of combat just to buff yourself. Action- Symbiotic Entity BA- Shillelagh. Having tried this before, it's pretty bad.
If I was to make another melee spore druid, I would go dex based lizardfolk. You get an AC of 13+dex. You also get a bonus action bite attack once per short rest, which is a nice little filler. You focus on booming blade/Green flame blade, summoning spells and other non-DC based spells to account for your lower wis. Sorcerer metamagic is great for being able to do something when you activate SE or for a burst of damage (double BB/GFB).
If you don't want to do that, monk can be a useful dip to get more out of your melee attacks.
Your build is definitely better, I was looking at it from a monoclass perspective. “Best” doesn’t necessarily equal powerful in this case, unfortunately, especially when it comes to the low, low, bar of mono classed melee Shillelagh druid.
True. Unfortunately Spores druid doesn't hold up as a melee fighter on its own beyond the first few levels. Taking polearm masters will give you a bump for a bit and make it kind of decent for a few levels, but eventually it becomes problematic and you're stuck doing the same damage.
If you don't want to multiclass, I suggest skipping PAM and just transitioning to being a pure caster at level 5 with chill touch.
You could also focus on Primal Savagery or Thorn Whip and just be a tankier Druid than normal while still casting spells. Besides certain Clerics, I’m pretty sure Spores Druid is the tankiest fullcaster, especially if you can grab some Dragonscale mail.
I would take primal savagery as well for the situations where you get stuck in melee, but I wouldn't volunteer to be in melee just to use primal savagery. Especially if I'm concentrating on an important spell. Between your undead and conjured animals etc there shouldn't be a great need for you to help out on the front line. But you do make a great mid-liner.
Anyway... OP asked for some tactics.. Here you go.
Get a bunch of skeletons and cast flame arrows. Have each skeleton take 1-2 arrows (just leave at least 1 in the quiver). This does two things: it gives them extra damage (1d6 per arrow) but also makes the arrows magical so that their damage isn't resisted by resistance to non-magical damage. If you have 10 skeletons prepped with a fire arrow, and you're got 5th level spells, a great option to open with is transmute rock. Transmute rock can restrain creatures in a large area AND it's non-concentration (which is necessary because flame arrows is concentration). A restrained enemy will have 20d6+20 fire/piercing damage headed their way with advantage on the attacks.
Have your zombies grapple & take help action rather than attack. Grappling can be quite useful. You can pair it with cloudkill since they're immune to poison. Another neat trick is to have them bait opportunity attacks then use wall of stone to wall off enemies. Wall of stone lets enemies use their reaction to jump out if the wall would trap them. No reaction = no save.
Undead are good for giving you cover. They can give you half cover at least, which is +2 to AC and dexterity saving throws. Have them for a little wall in front of you or around you if you have enough.
I'm very skeptical of the sorcerer dip. It's a bunch of levels, stretches your stats, and doesn't leave you with very many sorcery points to actually do the thing.
If allowed, I think Death Cleric is a great 1 level dip for the Spores Druid. Use it to pick up Toll the Dead and Sapping Sting alongside Chill Touch from Spores and now the build has a really nice basic combat routine with reaper fueled cantrips.
re: stats- starting with 1 level or sorcerer gives you con proficiency. A little hit to your con stat isn't that big of a deal with all the temp hp you'll be getting and the defensive options that you get from sorcerer (shield and eventually mirror image).
True, you don't have a ton of sorcery points, but you can sacrifice spell slots to gain additional ones. The build eventually "completes" at level 12 with 4 levels of sorcerer and the metamagic feat, giving you a pool of 6 sorcery points. One of the best things you can do with the build is twin spell polymorph. It has +6 to con saves and war caster too, so it's great at keeping concentration. You can use transmute spell to turn flame arrows into ice arrows or acid arrows, which is pretty cool.
There's always tradeoffs to multiclassing, and building a melee druid is challenging overall, but benefits of metamagic for the spore druid are fantastic. It can prevent you from wasting an entire turn at the beginning of combat just to set up your buffs. It can provide a lot of burst damage via twin spell and/or quicken spell (twinned dissonant whispers ftw). And most of all, this is a FUN way to play compared to polearm master
Heh, I'm even less convinced now. This build doesn't come online in a practical way since metamagic won't be happening until near the end of tier 2. It's a fun build, but it sounds more cute than effective. Putting off higher level spells, making symbiotic entity weaker, basically never unlocking the halo bomb...doesn't feel good.
I don't think the Spores Druid action economy is in such dire straights that it needs the help form such a big investment. Proper timing with spells like flaming sphere, or simply activating entity between fights and forgoing the damage boost means you will enjoy plenty of great benefits while feeling active every round of combat.
Spores druids already make perfectly acceptable melee combatants out of the box. I don't think anything gained by four levels of a different class and a feat makes up for what is being given up.
Spores druids already make perfectly acceptable melee combatants out of the box. I don't think anything gained by four levels of a different class and a feat makes up for what is being given up.
I guess we have very fundamental ideas of what's acceptable. Especially when you're talking about activating SE between fights and potentially losing out on the other benefits... come on. I've played a straight spore druid with PAM to level 10 and it sucks as a melee build. You're doing the same damage from level 4 onward. Eventually convinced my dm to let me drop PAM and take a level of death cleric because it was so bad.
"making symbiotic entity weaker" Except it's not because you have much better defenses with spells like shield and eventually mirror image which easily makes up for the lower temp hp pool.
You start with 1 level sorcerer which gets you con proficiency, shield, booming blade, etc. Then you go 5 druid to get 3rd level spells. So metamagic comes online at level 7 which is when the pure spore druid starts to really lag behind.
"I don't think the Spores Druid action economy is in such dire straights that it needs the help form such a big investment. Proper timing ..." This has me doubting whether you've actually played a significant amount of spore druid in tier 2+. Either that or your GM consistently telegraphs when fights are about to happen. Because having to do a full round of setup at the start of fights regularly is a MAJOR issue. .
I don't expect the Spores druid to be a dedicated front-line melee, or dump huge damage in one attack action. So to me what they can perform in terms of holding ground and absorbing hits is an acceptable melee combatant. If you're expecting to get the Druid chassis to output the kind of numbers that the dedicated martials are, in the ways they are, of course you will be left disappointed. Even the moon druid tapers off of its god-tier melee status in the early levels and has to fall back on more conventional druid tactics to complement their kit. The spores druid is an acceptable melee combatant because its superior than so many other full caster subs at the roll while providing a crap ton of control to the battlefield through (excellent)summons and aoe effects and all the other benefits of having a dedicated full spellcaster on your squad.
A spores druid can animate dead and conjure animals at the same time. They can generate more attacks than practically anyone. I'm really not sure what you want out of them when it comes to damage output and melee presence.
The temporary HP from Symbiotic Entity last until you take a long rest. It's only the bonus damage that lasts for ten minutes. There is no telegraphing needed. You can pop it as soon as you wake up and enjoy the combat beefiness stress free. I don't think I'm nearly as attached to the bonus damage as you are. I'm just not playing druids for damage. It kinda just happens as I exert control over the battlefield and what really matters is setting up favorable conditions for my allies. To that end, I think it is incredibly strong to be able to use Symbiotic Entity more akin to an 8 hour duration spell, and I'm more than happy to trade the bonus damage to be able to do so.
Also, the sporcerer build doesn't come online until level 8. And it involves yet another action in combat to set up your defenses thanks to mirror image. Not to mention all these spell slots being used on shield, mirror image, sorcery points...a huge cost you are glossing over. Sorry, but I'm just not seeing it.
So I'm playing a tortle spores druid in a play by post. What are some fun tactics to use for this subclass? For cantrips I took Create bonfire and Guidance. Are there any interesting combos I can pull off? I was thinking Create Bonfire and Shell defense could work; flaming Sphere at level 3. Are there any others?
I've got a spore druid NPC named Freya in my back pocket that I really want to use as a recurring enemy. Spores (and Lore Bards) are the only ones to get Animate Dead and Conjure Animals and that's what Freya is all about. Conjuring Giant Bats, she'll have her Skeleton army mount them and serve as aerial units harassing with bow and arrow. When trying to ambush the party she'll make liberal use of Pass without Trace to get her undead in position. As she becomes more powerful she'll employ cloudkill while sending a mob of zombies directly into the fray, taking full advantage of their immuntity to poison. Being able to combine Animate Dead with the great selection of druid battlefield control spells is exactly where I want to be with the subclass.
Also, in case ya don't know, the temporary hitpoints from symbiotic entity lasts until you take a long rest, unlike the rest of the bonuses which have a much shorter window. This means you can activate it once well before combat and still have a nice buffer of temp hp once things get heavy. You lose out on some bonus damage, but the action economy saved is generally worth it.
You definitely have the right idea with Flaming Sphere. It matches up well when you are looking to active symbiotic entity mid-combat. The best timing is not overly intuitive though. I think it's best to cast the concentration spell turn 1 while hanging back a bit to establish damage and control. Then on turn 2 you activate entity, use your bonus action on your concentation spell and think about using your movement to help hold the line. From there you can go attack + spell bonus action + spore reaction if you can manage to hold concentration. It's a nice low level routine for sure. I'd definitely consider heat metal as well depending on what kind of enemies you generally face. Dust Devil doesn't get much love but I think it's an interesting spell with some nice tactical applications if you care more about control than damage in the situation.
If multiclass is a possibility, I suggest making what I call the "Sporcerer". 3 levels sorcerer, 5+ levels druid. Quicken spell solves a lot of your problems with activating symbiotic entity. And sorc gives you access to booming blade and shield (which helps keep SE going).
Spores Druids are the best Druid user of Shillelagh, if that’s the path you want to go. If you take Polearm Master you can get up to 3 attacks per round, each of which benefit from your Symbiotic Entity transformation. With being a Tortle as well, you have no need for much investment in either strength or dex, letting you focus Wisdom with a Constitution secondary.
I HIGHLY advise against doing polearm master + shillelagh. PAM requires your bonus action, and that conflicts with shillelagh, spreading spores, AND commanding your zombies/summoned creatures. Beyond that, you're looking at having to waste every first round of combat just to buff yourself. Action- Symbiotic Entity BA- Shillelagh. Having tried this before, it's pretty bad.
If I was to make another melee spore druid, I would go dex based lizardfolk. You get an AC of 13+dex. You also get a bonus action bite attack once per short rest, which is a nice little filler. You focus on booming blade/Green flame blade, summoning spells and other non-DC based spells to account for your lower wis. Sorcerer metamagic is great for being able to do something when you activate SE or for a burst of damage (double BB/GFB).
If you don't want to do that, monk can be a useful dip to get more out of your melee attacks.
Your build is definitely better, I was looking at it from a monoclass perspective. “Best” doesn’t necessarily equal powerful in this case, unfortunately, especially when it comes to the low, low, bar of mono classed melee Shillelagh druid.
True. Unfortunately Spores druid doesn't hold up as a melee fighter on its own beyond the first few levels. Taking polearm masters will give you a bump for a bit and make it kind of decent for a few levels, but eventually it becomes problematic and you're stuck doing the same damage.
If you don't want to multiclass, I suggest skipping PAM and just transitioning to being a pure caster at level 5 with chill touch.
You could also focus on Primal Savagery or Thorn Whip and just be a tankier Druid than normal while still casting spells. Besides certain Clerics, I’m pretty sure Spores Druid is the tankiest fullcaster, especially if you can grab some Dragonscale mail.
I would take primal savagery as well for the situations where you get stuck in melee, but I wouldn't volunteer to be in melee just to use primal savagery. Especially if I'm concentrating on an important spell. Between your undead and conjured animals etc there shouldn't be a great need for you to help out on the front line. But you do make a great mid-liner.
Anyway... OP asked for some tactics.. Here you go.
Get a bunch of skeletons and cast flame arrows. Have each skeleton take 1-2 arrows (just leave at least 1 in the quiver). This does two things: it gives them extra damage (1d6 per arrow) but also makes the arrows magical so that their damage isn't resisted by resistance to non-magical damage. If you have 10 skeletons prepped with a fire arrow, and you're got 5th level spells, a great option to open with is transmute rock. Transmute rock can restrain creatures in a large area AND it's non-concentration (which is necessary because flame arrows is concentration). A restrained enemy will have 20d6+20 fire/piercing damage headed their way with advantage on the attacks.
Have your zombies grapple & take help action rather than attack. Grappling can be quite useful. You can pair it with cloudkill since they're immune to poison. Another neat trick is to have them bait opportunity attacks then use wall of stone to wall off enemies. Wall of stone lets enemies use their reaction to jump out if the wall would trap them. No reaction = no save.
Undead are good for giving you cover. They can give you half cover at least, which is +2 to AC and dexterity saving throws. Have them for a little wall in front of you or around you if you have enough.
I'm very skeptical of the sorcerer dip. It's a bunch of levels, stretches your stats, and doesn't leave you with very many sorcery points to actually do the thing.
If allowed, I think Death Cleric is a great 1 level dip for the Spores Druid. Use it to pick up Toll the Dead and Sapping Sting alongside Chill Touch from Spores and now the build has a really nice basic combat routine with reaper fueled cantrips.
re: stats- starting with 1 level or sorcerer gives you con proficiency. A little hit to your con stat isn't that big of a deal with all the temp hp you'll be getting and the defensive options that you get from sorcerer (shield and eventually mirror image).
True, you don't have a ton of sorcery points, but you can sacrifice spell slots to gain additional ones. The build eventually "completes" at level 12 with 4 levels of sorcerer and the metamagic feat, giving you a pool of 6 sorcery points. One of the best things you can do with the build is twin spell polymorph. It has +6 to con saves and war caster too, so it's great at keeping concentration. You can use transmute spell to turn flame arrows into ice arrows or acid arrows, which is pretty cool.
There's always tradeoffs to multiclassing, and building a melee druid is challenging overall, but benefits of metamagic for the spore druid are fantastic. It can prevent you from wasting an entire turn at the beginning of combat just to set up your buffs. It can provide a lot of burst damage via twin spell and/or quicken spell (twinned dissonant whispers ftw). And most of all, this is a FUN way to play compared to polearm master
Heh, I'm even less convinced now. This build doesn't come online in a practical way since metamagic won't be happening until near the end of tier 2. It's a fun build, but it sounds more cute than effective. Putting off higher level spells, making symbiotic entity weaker, basically never unlocking the halo bomb...doesn't feel good.
I don't think the Spores Druid action economy is in such dire straights that it needs the help form such a big investment. Proper timing with spells like flaming sphere, or simply activating entity between fights and forgoing the damage boost means you will enjoy plenty of great benefits while feeling active every round of combat.
Spores druids already make perfectly acceptable melee combatants out of the box. I don't think anything gained by four levels of a different class and a feat makes up for what is being given up.
I guess we have very fundamental ideas of what's acceptable. Especially when you're talking about activating SE between fights and potentially losing out on the other benefits... come on. I've played a straight spore druid with PAM to level 10 and it sucks as a melee build. You're doing the same damage from level 4 onward. Eventually convinced my dm to let me drop PAM and take a level of death cleric because it was so bad.
"making symbiotic entity weaker" Except it's not because you have much better defenses with spells like shield and eventually mirror image which easily makes up for the lower temp hp pool.
You start with 1 level sorcerer which gets you con proficiency, shield, booming blade, etc. Then you go 5 druid to get 3rd level spells. So metamagic comes online at level 7 which is when the pure spore druid starts to really lag behind.
"I don't think the Spores Druid action economy is in such dire straights that it needs the help form such a big investment. Proper timing ..." This has me doubting whether you've actually played a significant amount of spore druid in tier 2+. Either that or your GM consistently telegraphs when fights are about to happen. Because having to do a full round of setup at the start of fights regularly is a MAJOR issue. .
I don't expect the Spores druid to be a dedicated front-line melee, or dump huge damage in one attack action. So to me what they can perform in terms of holding ground and absorbing hits is an acceptable melee combatant. If you're expecting to get the Druid chassis to output the kind of numbers that the dedicated martials are, in the ways they are, of course you will be left disappointed. Even the moon druid tapers off of its god-tier melee status in the early levels and has to fall back on more conventional druid tactics to complement their kit. The spores druid is an acceptable melee combatant because its superior than so many other full caster subs at the roll while providing a crap ton of control to the battlefield through (excellent)summons and aoe effects and all the other benefits of having a dedicated full spellcaster on your squad.
A spores druid can animate dead and conjure animals at the same time. They can generate more attacks than practically anyone. I'm really not sure what you want out of them when it comes to damage output and melee presence.
The temporary HP from Symbiotic Entity last until you take a long rest. It's only the bonus damage that lasts for ten minutes. There is no telegraphing needed. You can pop it as soon as you wake up and enjoy the combat beefiness stress free. I don't think I'm nearly as attached to the bonus damage as you are. I'm just not playing druids for damage. It kinda just happens as I exert control over the battlefield and what really matters is setting up favorable conditions for my allies. To that end, I think it is incredibly strong to be able to use Symbiotic Entity more akin to an 8 hour duration spell, and I'm more than happy to trade the bonus damage to be able to do so.
Also, the sporcerer build doesn't come online until level 8. And it involves yet another action in combat to set up your defenses thanks to mirror image. Not to mention all these spell slots being used on shield, mirror image, sorcery points...a huge cost you are glossing over. Sorry, but I'm just not seeing it.