I've played MoonDruid(2x) and Wildfire druid, but I am still not sure about what SubClass that I enjoyed the most... I am a "only Druid" player. From the 3 campaigns I played(OOTA, LMOP and HOTDQ[OnGoing]) the only one I played with another class was because my druid Died... It happens rsrs. I love it's potencial on exploration, investigation and survival. I think I do ok on this aspects.
But nothing thrills me more than Combat... and here is where I am looking for some TIP/opinions! There were one specific situation that I felt "to weak", "almost useless" and that is why I am asking what a druid can do (Feel free to answer considering any subclass): The party of six level(8or9) characters was fighting Fraz-Urb’luu, and I was on a situation that my stronger concentration spell "Conjure Animals" wasn't great since the enemy was immune to its damage. I had no strong potential on buff spells like (Twin Haste), I don't think I got any strong spell to target him, and even if I did, he got very strong Saves, M.Ressistence and L.Ressistence. Well, I was a MoonDruid but getting close to him didn't work very well, I mean, when I did, I took like 90 damage on one turn. (The Beast AC sucks, and no magic itens or equipaments+1+2+3 while shaped). Yeah, I know M.Druid isn't great at that level, but still... Most campaigns have the End Game around lvl 11~15 so been bad during the best fights is really a bummer to me. BTW: Barbarian and Paladin was tanking and dealing they're "normal" amount of damage... Sorcerer, Hasting the Paladin and the Ranger. Cleric, dealing a decent amount of damage with Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians and still got his action to act... CureWounds? Guiding Bolt? Dodge Action for helping tank, you name it. Ranger: Hitting hard with sharpshooter and Hunter's Mark.
So: What would you do to be effective on this fight or faceing other similarly strong opponent?
Fraz-Urb’luu is a CR 23 encounter that's supposed to be sent back to the Abyss in chapter 9 of OotA, or sent back by another demon in the later battle if it wasn't done in chapter 9 as intended. I'm a bit confused why your party of six 8th or 9th level characters were in such a fight in the first place. Ice Storm might have been better attack options. The bludgeoning comes from a magic spell even if the cold would have resistance applied. Moonbeam is damage Fraz doesn't resist can repeat use can help burn through his legendary resistance, but with his high saves and magic resistance he's an issue for spell casters. You might try Moonbeam for something to do but your spell slots are better spent on dispel magic and healing because of the spells he can cast and his +16 to hit means no one in that party should have a significant enough AC to not take heavy damage fast.
Conjure Woodland Being might be slightly better than Conjure Animals.
What I find odd is that Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians would be "doing a decent amount of damage" because at 9th level that cleric would have a 17 save DC if no feats were taken (base 8 + 5 WIS bonus + 4 PROF bonus) against Fraz's +14 WIS save with advantage from magic resistance. That's a ridiculously low failed save rate. The cleric's only going to do about 10 damage upcasting that in a 5th level slot, and not worth it over the 7 damage in the 3rd level slot. Spiritual Weapon is attacking 18 AC with a +9 bonus for a little better than 50/50 chance on 9 or 10 more damage.
Moonbeam does d10's radiant damage instead of Spirit Guardian's d8's and allows for a much farther range because Spirit Guardians centers on the cleric. Other spell options might be Earthbind to take away Fraz's flight or Faerie Fire to grant advantage on attacks. STR, DEX, and CHA saves aren't as strong and those spells are more likely to succeed in a failed save even if it's still a relatively low chance. Given their benefits it's worth risking the attempt.
The ranger with sharpshooter needs a 13 to hit AC 18 (+4 DEX bonus + 4 PROF bonus +2 Style -5 feat penalty; 1 ASI was lost to the feat) for slightly less than 50/50, but given Fraz wasn't simply immune to the attacks as non-magical there's a bonus to make it closer to 50/50. The ranger is doing approximately 23 damage in a round
Your tanks are likely going down fast to the DC 23 save spells Fraz casts, regardless. All Fraz really needs to do is take the high ground flying where Spirit Guardians won't reach and the barbarian or paladin are likely restricted to weaker attacks. Immobilizing the ranger with Phantasmal Force (23 INT save DC) while using legendary actions to launch concentration-free Phantasmal Killer and swooping in to selected targets would cut down damage fast.
I have a hard time thinking that party can do much regardless of class, tbh.
It was sometime ago, but what I record is that we were on a city that had 4 "factions/races" one of those were the Zhentarim. We were making a deal with there leader, but in the next day he started to act strangely and we found out it was because of a "jewel" and we broke it(bad decision BTW)... Fraz was inside.
And yeah, was a hell of a fight... The DM "gave us" a free turn while Fraz was "materialazing" and even so we just won because he Criticale Miss twice, giving us AoO(plus "proning" him one of the time). Never was so happy to see a 1 on Roll20. I can agree the fight had TPK possibility, actually in the end of the fight there were just 2, players on there feet.
-About tanking, we got some +2 armors/shields and on this table we rolled for attributs (roll4 d6 use top3) and on top of that we got a bless +2 on one stat on Deepgnome city. Add on that the fact the barbarian (I don't remeber the subclass), had a feature that when he hits the enemy, the creature will just dealt half of the damage on others too and atk with dissadivantage, if I am not mistaken.
The Cleric used Guardians at 5th slot so 5D8: 24/2 = 12 Dam. Spiritual Weapon 4th slot 2d8+5 = 14 (50/50) so 7. Total 19 damage... Adding the action on top of that: Attack? GuidingBolt? I.Wounds? He probably have an average of 35 damage been able to deal 50 on a good turn, without crit.
The ranger had +5DEX and his weapon was +2 so he connected a little bit more than 60% I think, but yeah, the average damage isn't that higher than what you pointed out... Maybe around 25, and if u consider the Haste around 38.
I think I got accustomed to dealing a decent damage with ConjureAnimals + ATK, but on that scenario my GCSnake was dealing an average off 13 damage with like 40% to hit... Thas is less than 4 damage per round.
Fraz wasn't flying btw, the fight took place on a room that he started basically on a corner. But your others ideas was very good... I mean, I don't usually walk with fairy fire but if I did it could be an strong option, and the Moonbean make a lot of sense too! I think my brain always think on 3S.Slot=C.Animals, and 4S.Slot Polimorph (for damage+meatshield) but the Moonbean using a 5th lvl do an average of 13 damage considering him sucedded on all tests. And there still the possibility of my party bloking him so I would be able to free my action... (The 13 Damage could not look much, but it triple of what I was doing and been able to stay on safe place). So yeah, I think it worth the prepation slot, for rare cases like this one.
Going further, maybe playing WildFire, Stars or Spore I could push the damage a little bit further getting some better single target spells and weponize mechanics like spore and spirit.
If you can't get close in your WS and your summons aren't up to snuff, Druids are fantastic support casters. This depends a lot on what you have prepared for the day, but it might not be a bad idea to have some support spells on back up. Druids are unparalleled in the ability to control a battlefield by creating difficult terrain, locking down flying creatures, or giving advantage with Faerie Fire.
It sounds like you wanted to be dealing damage, but that's not always a possibility. Druids are probably the most versatile class, regardless of subclass taken.
@ArntltheBest. Not really, I am down to impact the fight on any way... I mean, a mentioned Haste when I was talking about the Sorcerer; and the slow from Cleric's Spirit Guardians was pretty sick too. I admit that spells that have a "FailSave of NothingHappens" tend to push me away a little bit. (Even more when I am thinking on use it on a single enemy)
With that been said, I was with my default preparation spell since it wasn't a scenario I could not foreseeing... Maybe you are right, and I could use the preparation on some other spells, and that is exactly the point: What spells do you suggest? I mean earthbind is to situational, I am not sure about using one of my preparation on it. Fairy Fire is less situational and probably is a viable option to walk with it, although it falls on the F.Save or N.Happens category.
If you conjured 8 constrictor snakes, you have a bunch of chances to restrain him for a turn - no save if the snakes hit (even if he is immune to the damage). And then he has to waste an action to get free.
As a Stars Druid I find the freebie guiding bolts and bonus action Starry Archer form to be pretty useful at range.
@mcapsam Holy moly...That sounds a great option! Restrain is a really strong debuff, and after the first snake connect is likely more will also do so. 1- If Fraz try to free himself will use his action, that would be a bad option. 2- If he start to kill the snakes, I can just summon more, I got a decent amount of slots on the level already. 3- If he "ignore them", I can consider the restrain condition a "permanent" thing. Thats indeed sounds amazing.
@mcapsam Holy moly...That sounds a great option! Restrain is a really strong debuff, and after the first snake connect is likely more will also do so. 1- If Fraz try to free himself will use his action, that would be a bad option. 2- If he start to kill the snakes, I can just summon more, I got a decent amount of slots on the level already. 3- If he "ignore them", I can consider the restrain condition a "permanent" thing. Thats indeed sounds amazing.
About the radiant damage, sound like a plan too.
Though looking at the stat block of Fraz-Urb’luu he can dispel magic at will. So it would only take one action to get rid of all of the snakes. But for many other battles, it could be a good option.
Eh, I would say that the creatures created by that spell are one creature or magical effect, so I'd say you could dispel them 1 at a time. On the other hand, the DM gets the final say on what creatures you conjure with conjure animals.
@mcapsam Holy moly...That sounds a great option! Restrain is a really strong debuff, and after the first snake connect is likely more will also do so. 1- If Fraz try to free himself will use his action, that would be a bad option. 2- If he start to kill the snakes, I can just summon more, I got a decent amount of slots on the level already. 3- If he "ignore them", I can consider the restrain condition a "permanent" thing. Thats indeed sounds amazing.
About the radiant damage, sound like a plan too.
Though looking at the stat block of Fraz-Urb’luu he can dispel magic at will. So it would only take one action to get rid of all of the snakes. But for many other battles, it could be a good option.
He can actually do worse to them than that. He can cast confusion. Catch them and potentially some of the party too. Not care if he's part of it because he's immune to the charmed condition and just really screw people over. On top of doing tons of damage he can end up in a position where the party is attacking themselves or are getting bound up by the snakes or things like that.
he really is a fight that should just wipe the floor with characters at that level and if he doesn't it's likely that the ST is taking it easy on the group.
If you conjured 8 constrictor snakes, you have a bunch of chances to restrain him for a turn - no save if the snakes hit (even if he is immune to the damage). And then he has to waste an action to get free.
As a Stars Druid I find the freebie guiding bolts and bonus action Starry Archer form to be pretty useful at range.
The main issue with this is that RAW you can't pick what gets conjured when you cast conjure animals.
You have a few good options against this guy. Faery Fire targets his worst save and will give everyone advantage. Earthbind will negate his ability to fly (which could be hugely important depending on your team's abilities) and the STR save is almost as good to target as DEX (+9 vs 8). Watery Sphere would restrain him and bring him down into melee range with a STR save. For my money, that's the most effective spell to target him with.
You can also be of huge help to the team simply by throwing out dispel magic on teammates that get hit by confusion/phantasmal killer and/or freedom of movement so that they don't get restrained by his tail attack.
If he wasn't immune to poison, I would say do faery fire then hit him with contagion (preferably delivered via familiar). On a hit, the target is poisoned for a minimum of 3 rounds while they have to make con saves to avoid getting a really nasty disease (insta-death).
I've played MoonDruid(2x) and Wildfire druid, but I am still not sure about what SubClass that I enjoyed the most...
I am a "only Druid" player. From the 3 campaigns I played(OOTA, LMOP and HOTDQ[OnGoing]) the only one I played with another class was because my druid Died... It happens rsrs.
I love it's potencial on exploration, investigation and survival. I think I do ok on this aspects.
But nothing thrills me more than Combat... and here is where I am looking for some TIP/opinions!
There were one specific situation that I felt "to weak", "almost useless" and that is why I am asking what a druid can do (Feel free to answer considering any subclass):
The party of six level(8or9) characters was fighting Fraz-Urb’luu, and I was on a situation that my stronger concentration spell "Conjure Animals" wasn't great since the enemy was immune to its damage. I had no strong potential on buff spells like (Twin Haste), I don't think I got any strong spell to target him, and even if I did, he got very strong Saves, M.Ressistence and L.Ressistence.
Well, I was a MoonDruid but getting close to him didn't work very well, I mean, when I did, I took like 90 damage on one turn. (The Beast AC sucks, and no magic itens or equipaments+1+2+3 while shaped). Yeah, I know M.Druid isn't great at that level, but still... Most campaigns have the End Game around lvl 11~15 so been bad during the best fights is really a bummer to me.
BTW: Barbarian and Paladin was tanking and dealing they're "normal" amount of damage...
Sorcerer, Hasting the Paladin and the Ranger.
Cleric, dealing a decent amount of damage with Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians and still got his action to act... CureWounds? Guiding Bolt? Dodge Action for helping tank, you name it.
Ranger: Hitting hard with sharpshooter and Hunter's Mark.
So: What would you do to be effective on this fight or faceing other similarly strong opponent?
Thanks for your time and attention!
Fraz-Urb’luu is a CR 23 encounter that's supposed to be sent back to the Abyss in chapter 9 of OotA, or sent back by another demon in the later battle if it wasn't done in chapter 9 as intended. I'm a bit confused why your party of six 8th or 9th level characters were in such a fight in the first place. Ice Storm might have been better attack options. The bludgeoning comes from a magic spell even if the cold would have resistance applied. Moonbeam is damage Fraz doesn't resist can repeat use can help burn through his legendary resistance, but with his high saves and magic resistance he's an issue for spell casters. You might try Moonbeam for something to do but your spell slots are better spent on dispel magic and healing because of the spells he can cast and his +16 to hit means no one in that party should have a significant enough AC to not take heavy damage fast.
Conjure Woodland Being might be slightly better than Conjure Animals.
What I find odd is that Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians would be "doing a decent amount of damage" because at 9th level that cleric would have a 17 save DC if no feats were taken (base 8 + 5 WIS bonus + 4 PROF bonus) against Fraz's +14 WIS save with advantage from magic resistance. That's a ridiculously low failed save rate. The cleric's only going to do about 10 damage upcasting that in a 5th level slot, and not worth it over the 7 damage in the 3rd level slot. Spiritual Weapon is attacking 18 AC with a +9 bonus for a little better than 50/50 chance on 9 or 10 more damage.
Moonbeam does d10's radiant damage instead of Spirit Guardian's d8's and allows for a much farther range because Spirit Guardians centers on the cleric. Other spell options might be Earthbind to take away Fraz's flight or Faerie Fire to grant advantage on attacks. STR, DEX, and CHA saves aren't as strong and those spells are more likely to succeed in a failed save even if it's still a relatively low chance. Given their benefits it's worth risking the attempt.
The ranger with sharpshooter needs a 13 to hit AC 18 (+4 DEX bonus + 4 PROF bonus +2 Style -5 feat penalty; 1 ASI was lost to the feat) for slightly less than 50/50, but given Fraz wasn't simply immune to the attacks as non-magical there's a bonus to make it closer to 50/50. The ranger is doing approximately 23 damage in a round
Your tanks are likely going down fast to the DC 23 save spells Fraz casts, regardless. All Fraz really needs to do is take the high ground flying where Spirit Guardians won't reach and the barbarian or paladin are likely restricted to weaker attacks. Immobilizing the ranger with Phantasmal Force (23 INT save DC) while using legendary actions to launch concentration-free Phantasmal Killer and swooping in to selected targets would cut down damage fast.
I have a hard time thinking that party can do much regardless of class, tbh.
It was sometime ago, but what I record is that we were on a city that had 4 "factions/races" one of those were the Zhentarim. We were making a deal with there leader, but in the next day he started to act strangely and we found out it was because of a "jewel" and we broke it(bad decision BTW)... Fraz was inside.
And yeah, was a hell of a fight... The DM "gave us" a free turn while Fraz was "materialazing" and even so we just won because he Criticale Miss twice, giving us AoO(plus "proning" him one of the time). Never was so happy to see a 1 on Roll20. I can agree the fight had TPK possibility, actually in the end of the fight there were just 2, players on there feet.
-About tanking, we got some +2 armors/shields and on this table we rolled for attributs (roll4 d6 use top3) and on top of that we got a bless +2 on one stat on Deepgnome city. Add on that the fact the barbarian (I don't remeber the subclass), had a feature that when he hits the enemy, the creature will just dealt half of the damage on others too and atk with dissadivantage, if I am not mistaken.
The Cleric used Guardians at 5th slot so 5D8: 24/2 = 12 Dam. Spiritual Weapon 4th slot 2d8+5 = 14 (50/50) so 7. Total 19 damage... Adding the action on top of that: Attack? GuidingBolt? I.Wounds? He probably have an average of 35 damage been able to deal 50 on a good turn, without crit.
The ranger had +5DEX and his weapon was +2 so he connected a little bit more than 60% I think, but yeah, the average damage isn't that higher than what you pointed out... Maybe around 25, and if u consider the Haste around 38.
I think I got accustomed to dealing a decent damage with ConjureAnimals + ATK, but on that scenario my GCSnake was dealing an average off 13 damage with like 40% to hit... Thas is less than 4 damage per round.
Fraz wasn't flying btw, the fight took place on a room that he started basically on a corner. But your others ideas was very good... I mean, I don't usually walk with fairy fire but if I did it could be an strong option, and the Moonbean make a lot of sense too! I think my brain always think on 3S.Slot=C.Animals, and 4S.Slot Polimorph (for damage+meatshield) but the Moonbean using a 5th lvl do an average of 13 damage considering him sucedded on all tests. And there still the possibility of my party bloking him so I would be able to free my action... (The 13 Damage could not look much, but it triple of what I was doing and been able to stay on safe place). So yeah, I think it worth the prepation slot, for rare cases like this one.
Going further, maybe playing WildFire, Stars or Spore I could push the damage a little bit further getting some better single target spells and weponize mechanics like spore and spirit.
Thanks man!
If you can't get close in your WS and your summons aren't up to snuff, Druids are fantastic support casters. This depends a lot on what you have prepared for the day, but it might not be a bad idea to have some support spells on back up. Druids are unparalleled in the ability to control a battlefield by creating difficult terrain, locking down flying creatures, or giving advantage with Faerie Fire.
It sounds like you wanted to be dealing damage, but that's not always a possibility. Druids are probably the most versatile class, regardless of subclass taken.
@ArntltheBest. Not really, I am down to impact the fight on any way... I mean, a mentioned Haste when I was talking about the Sorcerer; and the slow from Cleric's Spirit Guardians was pretty sick too. I admit that spells that have a "FailSave of NothingHappens" tend to push me away a little bit. (Even more when I am thinking on use it on a single enemy)
With that been said, I was with my default preparation spell since it wasn't a scenario I could not foreseeing... Maybe you are right, and I could use the preparation on some other spells, and that is exactly the point: What spells do you suggest? I mean earthbind is to situational, I am not sure about using one of my preparation on it. Fairy Fire is less situational and probably is a viable option to walk with it, although it falls on the F.Save or N.Happens category.
If you conjured 8 constrictor snakes, you have a bunch of chances to restrain him for a turn - no save if the snakes hit (even if he is immune to the damage). And then he has to waste an action to get free.
As a Stars Druid I find the freebie guiding bolts and bonus action Starry Archer form to be pretty useful at range.
@mcapsam Holy moly...That sounds a great option! Restrain is a really strong debuff, and after the first snake connect is likely more will also do so.
1- If Fraz try to free himself will use his action, that would be a bad option.
2- If he start to kill the snakes, I can just summon more, I got a decent amount of slots on the level already.
3- If he "ignore them", I can consider the restrain condition a "permanent" thing.
Thats indeed sounds amazing.
About the radiant damage, sound like a plan too.
If you have 5th level spells, wall of stone is always a great choice in that situation where you're fighting something that way outclasses you.
Though looking at the stat block of Fraz-Urb’luu he can dispel magic at will. So it would only take one action to get rid of all of the snakes. But for many other battles, it could be a good option.
Eh, I would say that the creatures created by that spell are one creature or magical effect, so I'd say you could dispel them 1 at a time. On the other hand, the DM gets the final say on what creatures you conjure with conjure animals.
He can actually do worse to them than that. He can cast confusion. Catch them and potentially some of the party too. Not care if he's part of it because he's immune to the charmed condition and just really screw people over. On top of doing tons of damage he can end up in a position where the party is attacking themselves or are getting bound up by the snakes or things like that.
he really is a fight that should just wipe the floor with characters at that level and if he doesn't it's likely that the ST is taking it easy on the group.
The main issue with this is that RAW you can't pick what gets conjured when you cast conjure animals.
You have a few good options against this guy. Faery Fire targets his worst save and will give everyone advantage. Earthbind will negate his ability to fly (which could be hugely important depending on your team's abilities) and the STR save is almost as good to target as DEX (+9 vs 8). Watery Sphere would restrain him and bring him down into melee range with a STR save. For my money, that's the most effective spell to target him with.
You can also be of huge help to the team simply by throwing out dispel magic on teammates that get hit by confusion/phantasmal killer and/or freedom of movement so that they don't get restrained by his tail attack.
If he wasn't immune to poison, I would say do faery fire then hit him with contagion (preferably delivered via familiar). On a hit, the target is poisoned for a minimum of 3 rounds while they have to make con saves to avoid getting a really nasty disease (insta-death).