For moon Druids, is the giant elk or the allosaurus a more powerful choice for wildshape and why? I was looking over the available charger forms at CR 2 and noticed that these seemed surprisingly similar.
Giant Elk has fewer hitpoints but better AC. Its charge requires less distance, and does additional damage directly, but only brings it to an average of 18 damage on one attack, then 22 on subsequent turns if it attacks with hooves, however this requires its target to remain prone. The elk's charge has a better save DC for knocking its target prone. Its basic attack has a reach of 10 feet which is good.
Allosaurus has better HP but slightly lower AC. It requires more of a run up for its pounce and has a slightly worse save DC for knocking its target prone. However it can immediately use its bonus action attack if it succeeds, for 23 average damage (across two attacks).
In general I'd say the elk is probably the better all rounder, but the allosaurus does (and takes) more damage; they're pretty even though IMO so just pick whatever fits your character best.
If you are using the rule that you must have seen an animal, one of these options is much more campaign dependent/likely rare than the other.
One can speak a language (Giant Elk is apparently also a language), so it gets a little weird when you have to try to figure out if it can speak other languages and what other languages it can speak. Presumably, it can bugle, which accounts for its own language, but doesn't allow it to speak complex humanoid language (note the languages it can understand but not speak), meaning speaking all of your other languages are off the table.
Overall, I find that they're fairly balanced. I'd choose the Giant Elk every time because the HP difference is about 1 attack's worth (which means you're likely to survive for 1 or 0 more hits as the allosaurus), which the AC might make up for, the charge is easier to handle, you have a range option, and when you are closer, you do more damage. Also, dinosaurs just aren't a thing I was ever into. If you have anything that affects HP, AC, or attacks while wild shaped, the answer might change based on those.
Overall, I find that they're fairly balanced. I'd choose the Giant Elk every time because the HP difference is about 1 attack's worth (which means you're likely to survive for 1 or 0 more hits as the allosaurus), which the AC might make up for, the charge is easier to handle, you have a range option, and when you are closer, you do more damage.
I think you might have missed part of the hooves attack on the Elk; it requires the target be a prone creature, so it's not just a case of closing to 5 feet. This actually makes it quite a difficult attack to use as you can't knock a target prone and then use a hooves attack in the same turn unless you've been Hasted, so you're more likely to be using that attack against enemies that were knocked prone by others, unless you knock something prone and then an ally keeps it down for you (e.g- by grappling it).
Thanks for the input, I think I might go with the giant elk then. The allosaurus seems more reliable, but if I have my party members/summoned animals knocking people prone I like the idea of using hooves a lot.
Also, note the size difference between the two. The Giant Elk can be a frickin road block due to being a Huge creature. This is both detrimental in some cases and beneficial in others depending on party composition and where you are fighting. Its only 1 size group difference, but it's worth noting... although, it's also worth questioning why a 28 foot long Allosaurus is only considered large lol
The AC difference isnt huge by default (13 vs 14), but playing as Monk-Moon Druid with unarmored Defence the AC is noticeably better (15 vs 17 with +4 Wisdom).
For me, I've always preferred Giant Elk for aesthetics and survivability with Reach and retreat. But if you're face tanking or trying to DPS, the dino might be better.
Ok, just to raise the issues ugly head has the character ever seen an allosaurus? If it has it’s a really interesting homebrew or weird storyline if they have. If not then your stuck with the giant elk - oh wait it went extinct @12,000 years ago irl so is it even around in your game - better check your history with the DM. ( the giant elk is basically the giant Irish deer - extinct IRL for 9-12k yrs). I can see a DM allowing the giant elk, I have trouble seeing them allowing the Allosaurus without some very interesting backstory.
The campaign we’re doing isn’t a hyper-realistic modern campaign, so I don’t have to worry about IRL equivalents being extinct or not. And both the giant elk and allosaurus are included in basic rules, no homebrew required. My Druid spent a long time out in the wilds as part of their backstory, and has seen the majority of the beasts that live in forests and grasslands.
Ok, just to raise the issues ugly head has the character ever seen an allosaurus? If it has it’s a really interesting homebrew or weird storyline if they have. If not then your stuck with the giant elk - oh wait it went extinct @12,000 years ago irl so is it even around in your game - better check your history with the DM. ( the giant elk is basically the giant Irish deer - extinct IRL for 9-12k yrs). I can see a DM allowing the giant elk, I have trouble seeing them allowing the Allosaurus without some very interesting backstory.
Also note, Giant Elk are not extinct in the traditional DnD setting . One of the MM descriptions mentions that they are seen as a sign of good omens or something along those lines. Think Tolkien and the Elf lords riding them into battle....
And yes they are based on the Giant Irish Elk variant... with the exception of a few of the more fruity beasts, most Beasts are based on a real world counterpart
I can see accepting the giant elk - especially from those from sylvan/elven/primordial type areas. What I have trouble with is dinosaurs unless your world has a “lost continent” area with human inhabitants. I think but haven’t checked that Chult in FR may have some but that is the only place I think where you could have actually seen a live one to be able to summon it later.
Honestly.. I 100% agree with your sentiment about Dino's and most DM'S probably will as well... but there's always that one DM running a campagin that just watched Jurassic Park or played Turok for the first time in the last week....
I can see accepting the giant elk - especially from those from sylvan/elven/primordial type areas. What I have trouble with is dinosaurs unless your world has a “lost continent” area with human inhabitants. I think but haven’t checked that Chult in FR may have some but that is the only place I think where you could have actually seen a live one to be able to summon it later.
Yeah, there are dinosaurs all over the place in ToA/Chult
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Adding this in, as I'm surprised more groups don't use the idea: Wild Shape tourism. Since druids can only change into a beast they have seen, it makes sense that druids would go and see every beast they think would be useful. And when they come back, change into that beast for the other members of thier Circle, and pass it down thru the generations. So unless you want to change into a very rare & elusive beast, or come from a very reclusive Circle, you should be able to Wild Shape into anything from the core books / setting books as part of becoming a level 1 druid.
Adding this in, as I'm surprised more groups don't use the idea: Wild Shape tourism. Since druids can only change into a beast they have seen, it makes sense that druids would go and see every beast they think would be useful. And when they come back, change into that beast for the other members of thier Circle, and pass it down thru the generations. So unless you want to change into a very rare & elusive beast, or come from a very reclusive Circle, you should be able to Wild Shape into anything from the core books / setting books as part of becoming a level 1 druid.
Reading this thread this morning I was about to write a similar thing. Unless your character just became a Druid with no actual training by a mentor (self-taught) other druids of their circle can show them the wild shape forms.
Reading this thread this morning I was about to write a similar thing. Unless your character just became a Druid with no actual training by a mentor (self-taught) other druids of their circle can show them the wild shape forms.
I guess it depends on what you interpret the learning process to be, in RAW it just says "seen" which I've often felt was a bit weak. For example, if you threw an octopus across a room in front of me I'll have technically "seen" it, but what do I really know about it? If I didn't know its name or what "octo" meant would I know how many limbs it had, or how they move or operate? Would I know it has a beak?
I've always tended to assume that it takes more than just to see a creature, but to spend time observing and learning about how it moves and behaves before you could really say you mastered a form; as a DM I'd be inclined to impose disadvantage for anything a druid only saw briefly, on the basis that they'd be clumsy and passing themselves off as the real thing poorly. I do like the idea of travelling druids sharing their wildshape forms though, but I'd maybe treat it as a form of training; i.e- you'd need to spend time learning each new form, so it wouldn't be enough to just assume that a single visit means you know every possible creature you could ever want to wildshape into (plus if they're not an archdruid they only have a limited number of transformations per day anyway).
Reading this thread this morning I was about to write a similar thing. Unless your character just became a Druid with no actual training by a mentor (self-taught) other druids of their circle can show them the wild shape forms.
I guess it depends on what you interpret the learning process to be, in RAW it just says "seen" which I've often felt was a bit weak. For example, if you threw an octopus across a room in front of me I'll have technically "seen" it, but what do I really know about it? If I didn't know its name or what "octo" meant would I know how many limbs it had, or how they move or operate? Would I know it has a beak?
I've always tended to assume that it takes more than just to see a creature, but to spend time observing and learning about how it moves and behaves before you could really say you mastered a form; as a DM I'd be inclined to impose disadvantage for anything a druid only saw briefly, on the basis that they'd be clumsy and passing themselves off as the real thing poorly. I do like the idea of traveling druids sharing their wildshape forms though, but I'd maybe treat it as a form of training; i.e- you'd need to spend time learning each new form, so it wouldn't be enough to just assume that a single visit means you know every possible creature you could ever want to wildshape into (plus if they're not an archdruid they only have a limited number of transformations per day anyway).
Absolutely, it should be a in-depth education, not a casual observation as you fly past. But druids circles have centuries to visit the various areas of the world, and to share that knowledge with each other. By a quick DDB search, there 168 beasts of CR 0-1, minus the swarms. That means 1 druid can spend 2 days teaching/learning each beast, and still have time left at the end of the year.
Ok, just to raise the issues ugly head has the character ever seen an allosaurus? If it has it’s a really interesting homebrew or weird storyline if they have. If not then your stuck with the giant elk - oh wait it went extinct @12,000 years ago irl so is it even around in your game - better check your history with the DM. ( the giant elk is basically the giant Irish deer - extinct IRL for 9-12k yrs). I can see a DM allowing the giant elk, I have trouble seeing them allowing the Allosaurus without some very interesting backstory.
So, when did dragons go extinct IRL? Are they still out there? /s
This is a fantasy game, and even if it were real it's set in a different world than ours. Whether something is extinct or even exists in our world has no bearing on the game.
Yes it’s a fantasy game, but even in fantasy just how likely do you think allosauri are? Could some relic population of Dino’s exist even in our world? Possibly in the depths of the Congo but the odds are slim to zip. In any world with metal working humans Dino populations should be fringe not mainstream. That is in a world like the FRs Dino’s in Chult make a sense, Dino’s in the High Forest or Cormanthor do not. For the vast majority of humans Dino’s wouldn’t even be something they heard of or they would be so misunderstood they would generate legends like the real world legends of giant snakes, lizards and crocs that created our myths of dragons. A tabaxi Druid/ranger from Chult summoning an allosaurus instead of a giant elk I can accept, a high forest elf Druid doing the same I can not. It may be a completely different world but pretty much the same concerns - the majority of the game world is probably reasonably close to what our modern world would have been like any when from 13k CBE to 1600ce with islands of strange simply so we can work with it with our western historical/environmental social knowledge as players.
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For moon Druids, is the giant elk or the allosaurus a more powerful choice for wildshape and why? I was looking over the available charger forms at CR 2 and noticed that these seemed surprisingly similar.
Giant Elk
One of it's melee attacks can be made at 10 foot range.
It's actually kind of hard to say:
Giant Elk has fewer hitpoints but better AC. Its charge requires less distance, and does additional damage directly, but only brings it to an average of 18 damage on one attack, then 22 on subsequent turns if it attacks with hooves, however this requires its target to remain prone. The elk's charge has a better save DC for knocking its target prone. Its basic attack has a reach of 10 feet which is good.
Allosaurus has better HP but slightly lower AC. It requires more of a run up for its pounce and has a slightly worse save DC for knocking its target prone. However it can immediately use its bonus action attack if it succeeds, for 23 average damage (across two attacks).
In general I'd say the elk is probably the better all rounder, but the allosaurus does (and takes) more damage; they're pretty even though IMO so just pick whatever fits your character best.
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If you are using the rule that you must have seen an animal, one of these options is much more campaign dependent/likely rare than the other.
One can speak a language (Giant Elk is apparently also a language), so it gets a little weird when you have to try to figure out if it can speak other languages and what other languages it can speak. Presumably, it can bugle, which accounts for its own language, but doesn't allow it to speak complex humanoid language (note the languages it can understand but not speak), meaning speaking all of your other languages are off the table.
Overall, I find that they're fairly balanced. I'd choose the Giant Elk every time because the HP difference is about 1 attack's worth (which means you're likely to survive for 1 or 0 more hits as the allosaurus), which the AC might make up for, the charge is easier to handle, you have a range option,
and when you are closer, you do more damage. Also, dinosaurs just aren't a thing I was ever into. If you have anything that affects HP, AC, or attacks while wild shaped, the answer might change based on those.I think you might have missed part of the hooves attack on the Elk; it requires the target be a prone creature, so it's not just a case of closing to 5 feet. This actually makes it quite a difficult attack to use as you can't knock a target prone and then use a hooves attack in the same turn unless you've been Hasted, so you're more likely to be using that attack against enemies that were knocked prone by others, unless you knock something prone and then an ally keeps it down for you (e.g- by grappling it).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Thanks for the input, I think I might go with the giant elk then. The allosaurus seems more reliable, but if I have my party members/summoned animals knocking people prone I like the idea of using hooves a lot.
Also, note the size difference between the two. The Giant Elk can be a frickin road block due to being a Huge creature. This is both detrimental in some cases and beneficial in others depending on party composition and where you are fighting. Its only 1 size group difference, but it's worth noting... although, it's also worth questioning why a 28 foot long Allosaurus is only considered large lol
The AC difference isnt huge by default (13 vs 14), but playing as Monk-Moon Druid with unarmored Defence the AC is noticeably better (15 vs 17 with +4 Wisdom).
For me, I've always preferred Giant Elk for aesthetics and survivability with Reach and retreat. But if you're face tanking or trying to DPS, the dino might be better.
Ok, just to raise the issues ugly head has the character ever seen an allosaurus? If it has it’s a really interesting homebrew or weird storyline if they have. If not then your stuck with the giant elk - oh wait it went extinct @12,000 years ago irl so is it even around in your game - better check your history with the DM. ( the giant elk is basically the giant Irish deer - extinct IRL for 9-12k yrs). I can see a DM allowing the giant elk, I have trouble seeing them allowing the Allosaurus without some very interesting backstory.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The campaign we’re doing isn’t a hyper-realistic modern campaign, so I don’t have to worry about IRL equivalents being extinct or not. And both the giant elk and allosaurus are included in basic rules, no homebrew required. My Druid spent a long time out in the wilds as part of their backstory, and has seen the majority of the beasts that live in forests and grasslands.
Also note, Giant Elk are not extinct in the traditional DnD setting . One of the MM descriptions mentions that they are seen as a sign of good omens or something along those lines. Think Tolkien and the Elf lords riding them into battle....
And yes they are based on the Giant Irish Elk variant... with the exception of a few of the more fruity beasts, most Beasts are based on a real world counterpart
I can see accepting the giant elk - especially from those from sylvan/elven/primordial type areas. What I have trouble with is dinosaurs unless your world has a “lost continent” area with human inhabitants. I think but haven’t checked that Chult in FR may have some but that is the only place I think where you could have actually seen a live one to be able to summon it later.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Honestly.. I 100% agree with your sentiment about Dino's and most DM'S probably will as well... but there's always that one DM running a campagin that just watched Jurassic Park or played Turok for the first time in the last week....
I know, I’m just saying as a reminder - there are enough DMs that string adventures together without actually running a campaign.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah, there are dinosaurs all over the place in ToA/Chult
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Adding this in, as I'm surprised more groups don't use the idea: Wild Shape tourism. Since druids can only change into a beast they have seen, it makes sense that druids would go and see every beast they think would be useful. And when they come back, change into that beast for the other members of thier Circle, and pass it down thru the generations. So unless you want to change into a very rare & elusive beast, or come from a very reclusive Circle, you should be able to Wild Shape into anything from the core books / setting books as part of becoming a level 1 druid.
Reading this thread this morning I was about to write a similar thing. Unless your character just became a Druid with no actual training by a mentor (self-taught) other druids of their circle can show them the wild shape forms.
I guess it depends on what you interpret the learning process to be, in RAW it just says "seen" which I've often felt was a bit weak. For example, if you threw an octopus across a room in front of me I'll have technically "seen" it, but what do I really know about it? If I didn't know its name or what "octo" meant would I know how many limbs it had, or how they move or operate? Would I know it has a beak?
I've always tended to assume that it takes more than just to see a creature, but to spend time observing and learning about how it moves and behaves before you could really say you mastered a form; as a DM I'd be inclined to impose disadvantage for anything a druid only saw briefly, on the basis that they'd be clumsy and passing themselves off as the real thing poorly. I do like the idea of travelling druids sharing their wildshape forms though, but I'd maybe treat it as a form of training; i.e- you'd need to spend time learning each new form, so it wouldn't be enough to just assume that a single visit means you know every possible creature you could ever want to wildshape into (plus if they're not an archdruid they only have a limited number of transformations per day anyway).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Absolutely, it should be a in-depth education, not a casual observation as you fly past. But druids circles have centuries to visit the various areas of the world, and to share that knowledge with each other. By a quick DDB search, there 168 beasts of CR 0-1, minus the swarms. That means 1 druid can spend 2 days teaching/learning each beast, and still have time left at the end of the year.
So, when did dragons go extinct IRL? Are they still out there? /s
This is a fantasy game, and even if it were real it's set in a different world than ours. Whether something is extinct or even exists in our world has no bearing on the game.
Yes it’s a fantasy game, but even in fantasy just how likely do you think allosauri are? Could some relic population of Dino’s exist even in our world? Possibly in the depths of the Congo but the odds are slim to zip. In any world with metal working humans Dino populations should be fringe not mainstream. That is in a world like the FRs Dino’s in Chult make a sense, Dino’s in the High Forest or Cormanthor do not. For the vast majority of humans Dino’s wouldn’t even be something they heard of or they would be so misunderstood they would generate legends like the real world legends of giant snakes, lizards and crocs that created our myths of dragons. A tabaxi Druid/ranger from Chult summoning an allosaurus instead of a giant elk I can accept, a high forest elf Druid doing the same I can not. It may be a completely different world but pretty much the same concerns - the majority of the game world is probably reasonably close to what our modern world would have been like any when from 13k CBE to 1600ce with islands of strange simply so we can work with it with our western historical/environmental social knowledge as players.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.