I agree with filcat and stormknight, RAW, the damage is added to the roll, you only do one roll (since they strike simultaneosly), you add 8d10 one time. The damage would be 9d4+8d10+9 in one target, or 1d4+8d10+1 in 9 different targets.
There isn't nothing about make the damage roll first and them multiply.
I don't follow what you're saying. 9d4 implies magic missile requires separate rolls, OK, fine if that's what you're ruling at your table (as discussed, the RAW is hard to read), but I don't follow the second point. The roll makes sense, that's what is required for nuclear druid. 1d4+8d10+1 applied 9 times on either multiple or one single target.
But you say you're disagreeing with me, I don't see where the disagreement comes in.
Magic missile strike simultaneously (that word is in magic missile text for one reason). So there isn't multiple damage rolls, just one with all dice, for multiple targets or just one.
Of there is just one roll, you add 8d10 one time, nothing in the rule say that you roll for one dart and multiply for the rest (if you have the page of PHB to prove that I'm wrong, tell me, please). So, by RAW you make one roll of 9d4+9 and add 8d10. Or make one roll of 1d4+1 to damage 9 different targets and add 8d10 to that roll.
That combo is based in just one unfortunately tweet of JC talking about another topic that probably he would correct himself after see this. This isn't RAW, even if he really believe that magic missile work that way, this would be RAI, not RAW, since twitter can't be considered RAW.
By the way, in the tweet he say that you can multiply the damage dice because "doesn't make difference", well in that case make a huge difference and that prove this wasn't the original intent of that tweet. And he is cleary talking about about multiple targets since he referred to page 196 that has the rule about it. To one target, you would roll 9d4 one time, as any other damage roll. He said nothing about roll one d4 and multiply the rest.
I know that you really would like that combo work by RAW, sorry but doesn't. You can still house ruled it.
It's not that I really want it to work, it's that I don't understand what you're saying at all.
There's nothing about multiplying dice. That I'm with you on.
"there isn't multiple damage rolls, just one with all dice"
Agreed.
"you make one roll of 9d4+9 and add 8d10. Or make one roll of 1d4+1 to damage 9 different targets and add 8d10 to that roll"
I think this is where it's getting confusing. The rules and Crawford suggest doing 1 damage roll - 1d4+1 - and then that single roll applies for every single dart.
So harvest dice aside, if I'm throwing three darts, I do one roll - 1d4+1, let's say I roll 3, so it's 4 damage.
Then I have three darts, so I apply that 4 damage three times, once for each dart. If I'm targeting one enemy, that's 12 damage, or it's 4 damage on three enemies, or it's 8 on one and 4 on another.
The nuclear druid just assumes you're adding the harvest dice to that first roll ("When you roll damage for a spell, you can increase that damage by adding..."), so instead of 4 damage, it'd be 4 plus whatever comes out of 8d10.
I have no problem if you think this is wrong (though I disagree, based on what's written and what the publishers have provided), but I don't see where you're disagreeing.
I agree with filcat and stormknight, RAW, the damage is added to the roll, you only do one roll (since they strike simultaneosly), you add 8d10 one time. The damage would be 9d4+8d10+9 in one target, or 1d4+8d10+1 in 9 different targets.
There isn't nothing about make the damage roll first and them multiply.
I don't follow what you're saying. 9d4 implies magic missile requires separate rolls, OK, fine if that's what you're ruling at your table (as discussed, the RAW is hard to read), but I don't follow the second point. The roll makes sense, that's what is required for nuclear druid. 1d4+8d10+1 applied 9 times on either multiple or one single target.
But you say you're disagreeing with me, I don't see where the disagreement comes in.
Magic missile strike simultaneously (that word is in magic missile text for one reason). So there isn't multiple damage rolls, just one with all dice, for multiple targets or just one.
Of there is just one roll, you add 8d10 one time, nothing in the rule say that you roll for one dart and multiply for the rest (if you have the page of PHB to prove that I'm wrong, tell me, please). So, by RAW you make one roll of 9d4+9 and add 8d10. Or make one roll of 1d4+1 to damage 9 different targets and add 8d10 to that roll.
That combo is based in just one unfortunately tweet of JC talking about another topic that probably he would correct himself after see this. This isn't RAW, even if he really believe that magic missile work that way, this would be RAI, not RAW, since twitter can't be considered RAW.
By the way, in the tweet he say that you can multiply the damage dice because "doesn't make difference", well in that case make a huge difference and that prove this wasn't the original intent of that tweet. And he is cleary talking about about multiple targets since he referred to page 196 that has the rule about it. To one target, you would roll 9d4 one time, as any other damage roll. He said nothing about roll one d4 and multiply the rest.
I know that you really would like that combo work by RAW, sorry but doesn't. You can still house ruled it.
It's not that I really want it to work, it's that I don't understand what you're saying at all.
There's nothing about multiplying dice. That I'm with you on.
"there isn't multiple damage rolls, just one with all dice"
Agreed.
"you make one roll of 9d4+9 and add 8d10. Or make one roll of 1d4+1 to damage 9 different targets and add 8d10 to that roll"
I think this is where it's getting confusing. The rules and Crawford suggest doing 1 damage roll - 1d4+1 - and then that single roll applies for every single dart.
So harvest dice aside, if I'm throwing three darts, I do one roll - 1d4+1, let's say I roll 3, so it's 4 damage.
Then I have three darts, so I apply that 4 damage three times, once for each dart. If I'm targeting one enemy, that's 12 damage, or it's 4 damage on three enemies, or it's 8 on one and 4 on another.
The nuclear druid just assumes you're adding the harvest dice to that first roll ("When you roll damage for a spell, you can increase that damage by adding..."), so instead of 4 damage, it'd be 4 plus whatever comes out of 8d10.
I have no problem if you think this is wrong (though I disagree, based on what's written and what the publishers have provided), but I don't see where you're disagreeing.
The question is all about Crawford suggest indeed. If he's suggesting that you roll for one dart and them reply the same damage to the rest, you could do (1d4+8d10+1) x9 in the same target (427,5 avg damage). In that case, the combo would work by RAI (Twitter isn't RAW).
But RAW, magic missile don't work that way, if all dart target the same enemy, you roll all d4 once, so you need to roll 9d4+9, them sum 8d10 (75,5 avg damage). The rule that he based on his tweet (PHB 196) is just for multiple targets, and RAW, there's nothing in MM text that when you hit the same target you should treat as multiple target rule.
The funny is, the combo has two parts, harvest dice and magic missile:
The question is all about Crawford suggest indeed. If he's suggesting that you roll for one dart and them reply the same damage to the rest, you could do (1d4+8d10+1) x9 in the same target (427,5 avg damage). In that case, the combo would work by RAI (Twitter isn't RAW).
But RAW, magic missile don't work that way, if all dart target the same enemy, you roll all d4 once, so you need to roll 9d4+9, them sum 8d10 (75,5 avg damage). The rule that he based on his tweet (PHB 196) is just for multiple targets, and RAW, there's nothing in MM text that when you hit the same target you should treat as multiple target rule.
The funny is, the combo has two parts, harvest dice and magic missile:
427 of average damage which is more than half the Tarrasque's hit points. It is clearly broken this way.
Again, in my opinion, doesn't matter how you roll the damage for the magic missiles, one target or more target. The point is that the rule clearly says that you have a limited "storage" of harvesting dice, and even more limited is how many harvesting dice you can use for one spell. the 8d10 rolls have to be split onto the number of magic missiles.
The rule says:" you can spend a number of dice equal to half your druid level".
The question is all about Crawford suggest indeed. If he's suggesting that you roll for one dart and them reply the same damage to the rest, you could do (1d4+8d10+1) x9 in the same target (427,5 avg damage). In that case, the combo would work by RAI (Twitter isn't RAW).
But RAW, magic missile don't work that way, if all dart target the same enemy, you roll all d4 once, so you need to roll 9d4+9, them sum 8d10 (75,5 avg damage). The rule that he based on his tweet (PHB 196) is just for multiple targets, and RAW, there's nothing in MM text that when you hit the same target you should treat as multiple target rule.
The funny is, the combo has two parts, harvest dice and magic missile:
427 of average damage which is more than half the Tarrasque's hit points. It is clearly broken this way.
Again, in my opinion, doesn't matter how you roll the damage for the magic missiles, one target or more target. The point is that the rule clearly says that you have a limited "storage" of harvesting dice, and even more limited is how many harvesting dice you can use for one spell. the 8d10 rolls have to be split onto the number of magic missiles.
The rule says:" you can spend a number of dice equal to half your druid level".
I agree with filcat and stormknight, RAW, the damage is added to the roll, you only do one roll (since they strike simultaneosly), you add 8d10 one time. The damage would be 9d4+8d10+9 in one target, or 1d4+8d10+1 in 9 different targets.
There isn't nothing about make the damage roll first and them multiply.
I don't follow what you're saying. 9d4 implies magic missile requires separate rolls, OK, fine if that's what you're ruling at your table (as discussed, the RAW is hard to read), but I don't follow the second point. The roll makes sense, that's what is required for nuclear druid. 1d4+8d10+1 applied 9 times on either multiple or one single target.
But you say you're disagreeing with me, I don't see where the disagreement comes in.
Magic missile strike simultaneously (that word is in magic missile text for one reason). So there isn't multiple damage rolls, just one with all dice, for multiple targets or just one.
Of there is just one roll, you add 8d10 one time, nothing in the rule say that you roll for one dart and multiply for the rest (if you have the page of PHB to prove that I'm wrong, tell me, please). So, by RAW you make one roll of 9d4+9 and add 8d10. Or make one roll of 1d4+1 to damage 9 different targets and add 8d10 to that roll.
That combo is based in just one unfortunately tweet of JC talking about another topic that probably he would correct himself after see this. This isn't RAW, even if he really believe that magic missile work that way, this would be RAI, not RAW, since twitter can't be considered RAW.
By the way, in the tweet he say that you can multiply the damage dice because "doesn't make difference", well in that case make a huge difference and that prove this wasn't the original intent of that tweet. And he is cleary talking about about multiple targets since he referred to page 196 that has the rule about it. To one target, you would roll 9d4 one time, as any other damage roll. He said nothing about roll one d4 and multiply the rest.
I know that you really would like that combo work by RAW, sorry but doesn't. You can still house ruled it.
It's not that I really want it to work, it's that I don't understand what you're saying at all.
There's nothing about multiplying dice. That I'm with you on.
"there isn't multiple damage rolls, just one with all dice"
Agreed.
"you make one roll of 9d4+9 and add 8d10. Or make one roll of 1d4+1 to damage 9 different targets and add 8d10 to that roll"
I think this is where it's getting confusing. The rules and Crawford suggest doing 1 damage roll - 1d4+1 - and then that single roll applies for every single dart.
So harvest dice aside, if I'm throwing three darts, I do one roll - 1d4+1, let's say I roll 3, so it's 4 damage.
Then I have three darts, so I apply that 4 damage three times, once for each dart. If I'm targeting one enemy, that's 12 damage, or it's 4 damage on three enemies, or it's 8 on one and 4 on another.
The nuclear druid just assumes you're adding the harvest dice to that first roll ("When you roll damage for a spell, you can increase that damage by adding..."), so instead of 4 damage, it'd be 4 plus whatever comes out of 8d10.
I have no problem if you think this is wrong (though I disagree, based on what's written and what the publishers have provided), but I don't see where you're disagreeing.
The question is all about Crawford suggest indeed. If he's suggesting that you roll for one dart and them reply the same damage to the rest, you could do (1d4+8d10+1) x9 in the same target (427,5 avg damage). In that case, the combo would work by RAI (Twitter isn't RAW).
But RAW, magic missile don't work that way, if all dart target the same enemy, you roll all d4 once, so you need to roll 9d4+9, them sum 8d10 (75,5 avg damage). The rule that he based on his tweet (PHB 196) is just for multiple targets, and RAW, there's nothing in MM text that when you hit the same target you should treat as multiple target rule.
The funny is, the combo has two parts, harvest dice and magic missile:
Thanks, I completely understand your disagreement now. I don't necessarily hold the same opinion, but I wanted to know what your take was and now I'm clear :)
The question is all about Crawford suggest indeed. If he's suggesting that you roll for one dart and them reply the same damage to the rest, you could do (1d4+8d10+1) x9 in the same target (427,5 avg damage). In that case, the combo would work by RAI (Twitter isn't RAW).
But RAW, magic missile don't work that way, if all dart target the same enemy, you roll all d4 once, so you need to roll 9d4+9, them sum 8d10 (75,5 avg damage). The rule that he based on his tweet (PHB 196) is just for multiple targets, and RAW, there's nothing in MM text that when you hit the same target you should treat as multiple target rule.
The funny is, the combo has two parts, harvest dice and magic missile:
427 of average damage which is more than half the Tarrasque's hit points. It is clearly broken this way.
Again, in my opinion, doesn't matter how you roll the damage for the magic missiles, one target or more target. The point is that the rule clearly says that you have a limited "storage" of harvesting dice, and even more limited is how many harvesting dice you can use for one spell. the 8d10 rolls have to be split onto the number of magic missiles.
The rule says:" you can spend a number of dice equal to half your druid level".
8d10 x 9 breaks this rule.
This still doesn't make any sense though. The point is, if Magic Missile takes one damage roll, you're using the dice to increase that damage roll.
i.e. "When you roll damage for a spell, you can increase that damage" - you're rolling the damage once then applying it to each and every dart. You're not using more stored dice at any point. You're just increasing the damage roll for the spell and then using that damage roll multiple times. If you're agreeing with Procobito that MM doesn't work that way, sure, that makes sense. But if you say that MM does work that way, you have to accept that the harvest dice work that way, because of the way damage is rolled and the way harvest dice is worded. Or you can rule at your table that it doesn't, but RAW (assuming MM works in that way) it's fine.
I'm necro-ing this thread to shed some new light on this discussion, dispel a shared misconception and offer a different perspective
Misconception: The Original Poster's interpretation of how Harvest's Scythe interacts with Magic Missile is too powerful.
I'm going to share why the interpretation - whether or not you agree with it - is balanced. Or, at least comparable to a damage combination in the Player's Handbook.
First, let's clarify the interpretation and imagine we have a Druid 6 / Wizard 2. If the character casts a 3rd Level Magic Missile and applies the maximum dice of Harvest's Scythe (half of druid level or 3d10), the total damage per missile is (1d4+1+3d10) or an average of 20 damage per missile (which is 100 damage for all 5 missiles because 3rd Level).
Initially, 100 damage on a single strike sounds like a LOT for an 8th level character, right? Well, is it actually? Let's compare - but compare to what? First, we recognize a maximum damage Harvest's Scythe can only be used twice per long rest. In the example above, the Druid can only do that 100 damage twice. What other class/specialization has a feature that can be used twice per long rest (edit: assuming 1 short rest a day) and effectively adds damage? Answer: Tempest Cleric.
The Tempest Cleric has an excellent comparison mechanic with their Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath. In order to get the most out of the Channel Divinity, we would have a Sorcerer 6 / Cleric 2 in order to cast Lightning Bolt as our Channel Divinity spell. A Lightning Bolt empowered with Destructive Wrath does 48 damage per target. So, if the Lightning Bolt is hitting at least 2 targets, it's doing equivalent damage to the Harvest's Scythe Magic Missile. If the Lightning Bolt hits 3 targets it does 50% more damage than the Druid, 100% more with 4 targets and so on.
Of course, you've probably noticed that Lightning Bolt has a saving throw. However, let's assume the Lightning Bolt hits 3 targets, even if 2 out of 3 targets save, the Sorcerer/Cleric is still doing equivalent damage.
TL:DR Tempest Cleric's Channel Divinity is comparable to Harvest's Scythe when hitting 2 targets. The Channel Divinity is better when hitting more than 2 targets or 4 targets (if they save).
I'm necro-ing this thread to shed some new light on this discussion, dispel a shared misconception and offer a different perspective
Misconception: The Original Poster's interpretation of how Harvest's Scythe interacts with Magic Missile is too powerful.
I'm going to share why the interpretation - whether or not you agree with it - is balanced. Or, at least comparable to a damage combination in the Player's Handbook.
First, let's clarify the interpretation and imagine we have a Druid 6 / Wizard 2. If the character casts a 3rd Level Magic Missile and applies the maximum dice of Harvest's Scythe (half of druid level or 3d10), the total damage per missile is (1d4+1+3d10) or an average of 20 damage per missile (which is 100 damage for all 5 missiles because 3rd Level).
Initially, 100 damage on a single strike sounds like a LOT for an 8th level character, right? Well, is it actually? Let's compare - but compare to what? First, we recognize a maximum damage Harvest's Scythe can only be used twice per long rest. In the example above, the Druid can only do that 100 damage twice. What other class/specialization has a feature that can be used twice per long rest and effectively adds damage? Answer: Tempest Cleric.
The Tempest Cleric has an excellent comparison mechanic with their Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath. In order to get the most out of the Channel Divinity, we would have a Sorcerer 6 / Cleric 2 in order to cast Lightning Bolt as our Channel Divinity spell. A Lightning Bolt empowered with Destructive Wrath does 48 damage per target. So, if the Lightning Bolt is hitting at least 2 targets, it's doing equivalent damage to the Harvest's Scythe Magic Missile. If the Lightning Bolt hits 3 targets it does 50% more damage than the Druid, 100% more with 4 targets and so on.
Of course, you've probably noticed that Lightning Bolt has a saving throw. However, let's assume the Lightning Bolt hits 3 targets, even if 2 out of 3 targets save, the Sorcerer/Cleric is still doing equivalent damage.
TL:DR Tempest Cleric's Channel Divinity is comparable to Harvest's Scythe when hitting 2 targets. The Channel Divinity is better when hitting more than 2 targets or 4 targets (if they save).
Channel Divinity uses are based on cleric level, so your counterexample character doesn't work.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Ah, I failed to clarify I am assuming one short rest between each long rest. Though I suppose a generous DM could allow more than one short rest between long rests but this would put the mechanics strongly in favor of the Cleric! Thank you for pointing that out!
I'm necro-ing this thread to shed some new light on this discussion, dispel a shared misconception and offer a different perspective
I'm going to share why the interpretation - whether or not you agree with it - is balanced. Or, at least comparable to a damage combination in the Player's Handbook.
First, let's clarify the interpretation and imagine we have a Druid 6 / Wizard 2. If the character casts a 3rd Level Magic Missile and applies the maximum dice of Harvest's Scythe (half of druid level or 3d10), the total damage per missile is (1d4+1+3d10) or an average of 20 damage per missile (which is 100 damage for all 5 missiles because 3rd Level).
Initially, 100 damage on a single strike sounds like a LOT for an 8th level character, right? Well, is it actually? Let's compare - but compare to what? First, we recognize a maximum damage Harvest's Scythe can only be used twice per long rest. In the example above, the Druid can only do that 100 damage twice. What other class/specialization has a feature that can be used twice per long rest (edit: assuming 1 short rest a day) and effectively adds damage? Answer: Tempest Cleric.
The Tempest Cleric has an excellent comparison mechanic with their Channel Divinity: Destructive Wrath. In order to get the most out of the Channel Divinity, we would have a Sorcerer 6 / Cleric 2 in order to cast Lightning Bolt as our Channel Divinity spell. A Lightning Bolt empowered with Destructive Wrath does 48 damage per target. So, if the Lightning Bolt is hitting at least 2 targets, it's doing equivalent damage to the Harvest's Scythe Magic Missile. If the Lightning Bolt hits 3 targets it does 50% more damage than the Druid, 100% more with 4 targets and so on.
Of course, you've probably noticed that Lightning Bolt has a saving throw. However, let's assume the Lightning Bolt hits 3 targets, even if 2 out of 3 targets save, the Sorcerer/Cleric is still doing equivalent damage.
TL:DR Tempest Cleric's Channel Divinity is comparable to Harvest's Scythe when hitting 2 targets. The Channel Divinity is better when hitting more than 2 targets or 4 targets (if they save).
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Ah, I failed to clarify I am assuming one short rest between each long rest. Though I suppose a generous DM could allow more than one short rest between long rests but this would put the mechanics strongly in favor of the Cleric! Thank you for pointing that out!