The Wild Shape rules tell me I can't use the ape's athletics and perception skill bonuses anyway, as I did not have proficiency in the first place.
It does? No, it only clarifies that you can use the better bonus when there are two sources of proficiency, and thus two different bonuses. If there is only one source of proficiency, then there aren't two ways to choose between. You shouldn't need clarification on which to choose when there isn't a choice, so the authors didn't write a redundant sentence. This goes back to the very first sentence of wildshape: your game statistics are replaced by the beast's. That means you get everything in the stat block in addition to what you retain.
The wildshape rules specifically say you get the beast's proficiencies and only let you use your bonuses if you are also proficient and your bonus is higher. If you are not proficient in athletics or perception, the rules require you to use the ape's skill bonuses.
Well it looks like I stirred up the hornet's nest on this topic. lol. So there are a lot of opinions and I want to get us on the same page I am going to give an example druid and an example beast and we can see where we think this lies with some different interpretations.
Or Druid, Bob, has the following stats: Level 5 (prof bonus +3). Str: 8 (-1) Dex: 16(+3) Con: 14(+2) Int: 10 (+0) Wis: 18(+4) Cha: 10(+0). Skill Prof: Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3)
Bob uses wild shape to transform into a Panther. Keep in mind the panther has expertise in stealth here. Panther has the follow stats that are relevant to the example: Str: 14(+2) Dex: 15(+2) Con: 10 (+0). Skill profs: Perception +4, stealth +6. Now keep in mind that a Panther is a CR 1/4 which means their prof bonus is +2 per the MM.
So Bob uses wild shape. What happens. We know that Bob now has a Str of 14, Dex of 15, and Con of 10. So n this case he gained some Str but lost some dex and Con. Now lets look at the skills. We will just use a couple of the skills that are relevant here.
1) Athletics becomes +2. The Str has increased but neither bob nor the panther are proficient. Perception is +7 because they are both proficient and bob's skill was higher. Stealth becomes +6 because the panther was proficient and has a higher skill bonus. I think this is the way MOST people interpret the rule.
2) Athletics is still +2. Perception is still +7. Stealth is +8 because of the Panther's +2 Dex, but since they are not both proficient we always use Bob's proficiency bonus and since the panther has expertise that would give a +6 on top of the dex.
3) Athletics is still +2. Perception is still + 7. Stealth is +5 because you can gain proficiency but not expertise. And since both are not proficient you have to use Bob's proficiency bonus of +3.
4) Athletics is still +2. Perception is still +7. Stealth is +4 because you can gain proficiency but not expertise and since the skill belonged to the panther you use the panther's proficiency bonus.
Unless I am missing some other options I think this sums up most of what I have seen. The big thing is Do you only choose which skill when they are both proficient or do you always choose the better skill? What happens if Bob had a +8 stealth and was not proficient in stealth and changes to the panther who is? Do you still get the +8 or do you drop to +6 or something else? Please debate!
I've tried to define several "options" earlier ; you do introduce new ones, so I'll add them to the list for future reference.
#Option 1 : Only consider beast's skill bonus when both have proficiency. Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+5) Matches your 3) : D&D:B current's integration, and my personal way of reading RAW.
#Option 2 : Take the better skill bonus without any calculation Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+6) Results matches your 1) - but leads imho to issues, like wrestling centipedes, when the druid has high physical stats. Does not seem so popular here anymore, but has some support on rpg.se. If the druid had a better stealth skill bonus because of high dexterity (like in your Dex 26 example), this is the only method that allows you to keep it - others do use updated ability modifiers, while this one doesn't.
#Option 3 : Take the better available proficiency bonus, calculated from the stat block. Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+6) Results also matches your 1) - but not so popular because of the heavy calculation needed. Here we keep the Panther's +4 "already doubled" proficiency bonus on stealth.
#Option 4 : Always consider beast's skill bonus. Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+6) Results (and method?) matches your 1), and indeed a very popular interpretation - shared by WolfOfTheBees, DxJxC, and filcat.
#Option 5 : Apply beast's expertise on top of druid's proficiency bonus. Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+8) Matches your 2) : I wouldn't use this, because improving a skill bonus because you had no proficiency in the first place makes no sense - and the beast has no explicit rule asking you to double your proficiency bonus. I've seen supporters of option 2 also support this, though.
#Option 6 : Take the better available proficiency bonus, derived from Challenge Rating. Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+4) Matches your 4) : Here's a new challenger ! I've never seen support on this one, though.
I'm sorry, guys. I know you are all trying to help me understand that feature "properly" (thank you for trying!), but it looks like I've been thinking about this for too long to be able to change my mind without some sort of official errata :)
The wildshape rules specifically say you get the beast's proficiencies and only let you use your bonuses if you are also proficient and your bonus is higher. If you are not proficient in athletics or perception, the rules require you to use the ape's skill bonuses.
I think I see where we disagree : to me, "having proficiency" means you can add your proficiency bonus to the relevant ability modifier when rolling for an ability check. Skill bonuses are just subtotals used for convenience on stat blocks and character sheets.
Hence, when the rules say that "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.", I think you are supposed to gain proficiencies, notskill bonuses.
To me, " Ifthe creature has the same proficiency as youandthe bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." is the only part of the feature that refers to the creature's skill bonus.
Please note that the rewording you used (in red) does not match the actual rule : the rule tells you to use the creature's bonus "IF[condition 1]AND[condition 2]" are met - which means you stick to the the druid's "normal" calculation (including the relevant ability modifier, and his proficiency bonus) if either [condition 1]OR [condition 2] is not met.
This goes back to the very first sentence of wildshape: your game statistics are replaced by the beast's. That means you get everything in the stat block in addition to what you retain.
Would you also keep the creature's Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores - in addition to your own? (This is probably a bigger deal for Shapechange, which uses the same mechanics, but is not limited to beasts.)
That's where we disagree : to me, the following lines specify what you should do regarding ability scores and proficiencies, and we are in that "specific beats general" situation. The feature tells you exactly what to do about abilities and proficiencies, when you can (and thus, cannot) use the creature's skill bonus - and it all replaces what you'd get from the full stat block.
But again : I guess that's OK we have different ways to read it !
I'm sorry, guys. I know you are all trying to help me understand that feature "properly" (thank you for trying!), but it looks like I've been thinking about this for too long to be able to change my mind without some sort of official errata :)
The wildshape rules specifically say you get the beast's proficiencies and only let you use your bonuses if you are also proficient and your bonus is higher. If you are not proficient in athletics or perception, the rules require you to use the ape's skill bonuses.
I think I see where we disagree : to me, "having proficiency" means you can add your proficiency bonus to the relevant ability modifier when rolling for an ability check. Skill bonuses are just subtotals used for convenience on stat blocks and character sheets.
And that is what is already done for the bonus listed in the stat block of the creature, since it is the creature that is proficient after all. Additionally, the creature may have other bonuses to skills besides ability and proficiency. The only numbers of those that we have direct access to from a beast's stat block are the ability modifier and the total.
Hence, when the rules say that "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.", I think you are supposed to gain proficiencies, notskill bonuses.
We're not saying that is how you gain those bonuses. You gain them from the very first sentence of wildshape. Jeremy clarified that part in that Dragon Talk episode: "We intend that you put down your character sheet and pick up the stat block to use as your character." And really, that part was pretty obvious from the sentence before the clarification.
To me, " Ifthe creature has the same proficiency as youandthe bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." is the only part of the feature that refers to the creature's skill bonus.
This sentence only applies when both have the same proficiency, so sure both conditions of the "if" must be met, but if they're not, that doesn't mean you invent rules to deal with those cases. That means in the other three cases, you cannot use this sentence. If the creature has the proficiency and you don't or vice versa, or if neither is proficient, then you default back to the previous explanations of how to arrive at a bonus. If the creature has proficiency and you don't, what is that? This is a legit question because you seem to be ignoring the very first sentence of wildshape, and so your interpretation is flawed from its basis.
Please note that the rewording you used (in red) does not match the actual rule : the rule tells you to use the creature's bonus "IF[condition 1]AND[condition 2]" are met - which means you stick to the the druid's "normal" calculation (including the relevant ability modifier, and his proficiency bonus) if either [condition 1]OR [condition 2] is not met.
No, you stick to the default. For the druid you are correct. For the beast, again, I will point out it has its own default with bonuses printed in their stat blocks for abilities that they have proficiency in. Again, I will ask if you if "your game statistics are replaced by the beast's" doesn't cover when [condition 1] is not met, but the beast has proficiency?
This goes back to the very first sentence of wildshape: your game statistics are replaced by the beast's. That means you get everything in the stat block in addition to what you retain.
Would you also keep the creature's Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores - in addition to your own? (This is probably a bigger deal for Shapechange, which uses the same mechanics, but is not limited to beasts.)
There are exceptions; those exceptions tell you how the work. That means that if the rule doesn't tell you what to do, you default back to this sentence first.
That's where we disagree : to me, the following lines specify what you should do regarding ability scores and proficiencies, and we are in that "specific beats general" situation. The feature tells you exactly what to do about abilities and proficiencies, when you can (and thus, cannot) use the creature's skill bonus - and it all replaces what you'd get from the full stat block.
I agree. They specify what to do in particular cases, but not all. Meaning if you are outside of those cases, you default to the most specific rule pertaining to them, the first sentence of wildshape. I will keep saying this because outside of the exceptions provided further within wildshape, it is the most specific rule to account for anything your character can do while you are in wildshape. The exceptions here tell you exactly what they do. In cases that they don't cover, we don't need to try to invent rules to fit those situations.
But again : I guess that's OK we have different ways to read it !
If two legitimate readings came from a rule, I'd agree too. But to have your reading, you have to ignore text and imply rules from words that aren't on the page.
One more question, though ; depending on your answer, I might have to add a 7th option to my list, so please answer directly (e.g : with a number) to the question.
Using Erogroth's example, what stealth skill bonus would you give Bob when in Panther shape after he reaches level 20 ?
Unless I am missing some other options I think this sums up most of what I have seen. The big thing is Do you only choose which skill when they are both proficient or do you always choose the better skill? What happens if Bob had a +8 stealth and was not proficient in stealth and changes to the panther who is? Do you still get the +8 or do you drop to +6 or something else? Please debate!
First, Bob can't have a +8 to stealth without proficiency unless there is something else going on. Whether he gets to keep the additional bonus to the skill when he wildshapes depends on where it comes from. Foregoing that, I think the wild shape rules were written under the assumption that proficiency in a skill from the beast or druid would necessitate a higher bonus than not having proficiency in that same skill from the other source. I.e. the assumption is that if the beast is proficient, then the bonus in its stat block is higher than the non-proficient bonus of the druid. The edge cases where the ability bonus of one (the druid) is higher than the total bonus of the other (beast) are different whether it is a mental stat or a physical stat, because the beast's mental stats are replaced but physical stats are retained. For physical stats, it doesn't matter what your old bonus was, you're only left with the beast's physical stats. For mental stats, there is more ambiguity; You could use the bonus in the stat block or the mental ability stat bonus.
One more question, though ; depending on your answer, I might have to add a 7th option to my list, so please answer directly (e.g : with a number) to the question.
Using Erogroth's example, what stealth skill bonus would you give Bob when in Panther shape after he reaches level 20 ?
I am all for not recomputing anything that is already written down for us. If the beast is proficient, I assume that the value to use is the value printed in the stat block - but this is a personal ruling. I know that this is where many people's hang up is (though you seem to be on about something else). Do you re-compute skill bonuses using the new stats and the druid's proficiency bonus for skills that you gain proficiency from the beast? Or do you only compute skill bonuses that way for the druid's proficiences? I'm actually not entirely sure on what is intended here, but I'm fine with just using the printed values for anything the beast is proficient in — since we replace our game statistics with those of the beast.
And finally, none of this points to any change in the analysis of DDB’s bug — the bonus in the stat block is the absolute minimum bonus a character should get to a skill the beast had proficiency in.
I felt your last answer was not consistent with option 4 - because when only the beast has proficiency, if you consider using the ability modifier + proficiency bonus calculation, you are stuck with 2 different values with no rule to tell you which you should use. I don't think a stat block should ever get 2 different values for the same attribute, and it looks like you feel the same.
The way you use it, it is a new option - which is absolutely consistent with what you said before. Call it RAW if you like, I'll label it : #Option 7 : Beast's skill bonus Or druid's proficiency bonus, depending on who gets proficiency.
To clarify the differences between Options 1, 4 and 7, based on the various formulas :
Use the beast's STR, DEX and CON modifier, or the druid's INT, WIS or CHA (aka the "relevant ability modifier") used by all 3 methods when neither the druid, nor the beast, has proficiency. (yay, a consensus!)
Sum the relevant ability modifier with the druid's proficiency bonus (aka "the druid's updated skill bonus") used by option 1 when either the druid, or the beast, has proficiency used by options 4 and 7 when only the druid has proficiency
Use the beast's skill bonus : used by option 7 when only the beast has proficiency.
Use the maximum between the beast's skill bonus, and the druid's updated skill bonus used by all 3 methods when both the druid and the beast have proficiency (yay, another one!) used by option 4 when only the beast has proficiency
I still like option 1 the most (and, consequently, think there's no bug in D&D:B), but you've made strong arguments for option 7, and I also did consider option 4 in the past. I wouldn't bet on which is closer to RAW or RAI - but I'd gladly accept any Sage Advice Compendium update that matches any of these.
I am not sure whether 4 or 7 is correct, owing to there not being text that says anything about the beats's proficiencies beyond gaining the statistics of the beast and what to do if you have two sources of proficiency. My gut says that means you default to the "gaining the statistics of the beast" part of wildshape, but many others compute them differently, and I'm willing to be persuaded either way between those. I think 1 is out because you DO get those bonuses from the first sentence of wildshape.
There is a reading that says that all of the beast proficiencies that you gain via wildshape are now proficiencies that you temporarily have as a druid. Therefore, every proficiency that the beast has is one that you both now have. This splits proficiencies into only two categories: ones that only the druid has and ones that both have. This would make 4 the reading of choice: All of the skill bonuses can be computed as your new ability mod + your druid proficiency bonus, and you consider the total in the stat block when there is one and choose what is higher.
I think the rule is intended to be simple. I think it should be simple but there are questions. If both the druid and the creature are proficient, look at who has the final higher bonus using their prof and ability modifier and using that one. If Bob has a 14 Dex and a +3 prof, then he would end up with +6 stealth from the panther who has the +2 Dex and the +4 prof due to expertise.
Where it gets confusing is what if Bob is proficient in Athletics? Bob has a str of 8 so with his prof bonus he will have athletics +2. So after wild shape is his athletics +2 or has it gone up to +5 since he gained the Panther's strength? If this is the case, then lets say bob transforms into a Cat and Bob is also proficient in stealth and Bob has a Dex of 18. Bob's stealth normally is a +7, but since he is a cat his dex has dropped from 18 to 15. So does he only get +5 since his dex is only +2 but he can choose the higher prof bonus which is his +3? What I am wondering is does the rule basically say if both the druid and the beast are proficient you Can't change the Dex bonus since we know that it belongs to the beast, but you can choose the proficiency bonus. I mean how does a cat get a +7 stealth? It can't if it has a dex of+2 and a prof bonus of either +2 or +3. The only way it can get a +7 is if we say "don't worry about it. Just take the +7 cause it's easier than doing math.
This would make 4 the reading of choice: All of the skill bonuses can be computed as your new ability mod + your druid proficiency bonus, and you consider the total in the stat block when there is one and choose what is higher.
It is indeed probably the most elegant solution (@Erogroth : if looking for simplicity, look no further!) - but It did not get much support on rpg.se. Which probably does not mean much, as option 2 is still the top one there.
The Wild Shape rules tell me I can't use the ape's athletics and perception skill bonuses anyway, as I did not have proficiency in the first place.
It does? No, it only clarifies that you can use the better bonus when there are two sources of proficiency, and thus two different bonuses. If there is only one source of proficiency, then there aren't two ways to choose between. You shouldn't need clarification on which to choose when there isn't a choice, so the authors didn't write a redundant sentence. This goes back to the very first sentence of wildshape: your game statistics are replaced by the beast's. That means you get everything in the stat block in addition to what you retain.
The wildshape rules specifically say you get the beast's proficiencies and only let you use your bonuses if you are also proficient and your bonus is higher. If you are not proficient in athletics or perception, the rules require you to use the ape's skill bonuses.
Serious question here (as in, not a rhetorical question to make a point): what happens when the DM calls for a Dexterity (Athletics) check? There's a disconnect between monster stat blocks and PC rules, which is that there's no such thing as "skill bonus" for PCs, because PCs never make skill checks. They make ability checks, and they can apply their proficiency bonus if they have a relevant proficiency*. How would the various voices in this thread deal with is? Is the DM required to completely readjust how they think about calling for rolls because the druid suddenly has monster stats?
*This is explicitly true even if playing with fixed ability-skill associations, but the answer in that case is "it doesn't matter how relevant athletics is, it's a DEX task so sucks to be you," which isn't interesting or illuminating to the discussion.
Serious question here (as in, not a rhetorical question to make a point): what happens when the DM calls for a Dexterity (Athletics) check? There's a disconnect between monster stat blocks and PC rules, which is that there's no such thing as "skill bonus" for PCs, because PCs never make skill checks. They make ability checks, and they can apply their proficiency bonus if they have a relevant proficiency*. How would the various voices in this thread deal with is? Is the DM required to completely readjust how they think about calling for rolls because the druid suddenly has monster stats?
*This is explicitly true even if playing with fixed ability-skill associations, but the answer in that case is "it doesn't matter how relevant athletics is, it's a DEX task so sucks to be you," which isn't interesting or illuminating to the discussion.
If they have an athletics bonus in their stat block, I would say that they could use that on any X (athletics) check, even a charisma (athletics) check should one be called for. Should they recalculate a new bonus to that check to see if it is higher, too? Who knows. The bonuses to skills for creatures are just that in my eyes: totals to add to particular skills. They're also calculated in mysterious ways; they're not always simply regular ability mod + proficiency bonus, and they're even occasionally different from ability mod + double proficiency (expertise). Above that, those skill bonuses also never explained; nothing tells you what the beast's proficiency bonus is (besides back-calculation or guessing from the CR charts) or what ability mod was used to calculate them.
If they don't have a bonus in their stat block then the relevant way to calculate the bonus would be (the druid's) proficiency bonus (if relevant) + ability mod that was called for.
I know technically, we call for ability checks rather than skill checks; but functionally, we are mostly interested in skill checks. I would probably effectively treat them as such.
Serious question here (as in, not a rhetorical question to make a point): what happens when the DM calls for a Dexterity (Athletics) check? There's a disconnect between monster stat blocks and PC rules, which is that there's no such thing as "skill bonus" for PCs, because PCs never make skill checks. They make ability checks, and they can apply their proficiency bonus if they have a relevant proficiency*. How would the various voices in this thread deal with is? Is the DM required to completely readjust how they think about calling for rolls because the druid suddenly has monster stats?
*This is explicitly true even if playing with fixed ability-skill associations, but the answer in that case is "it doesn't matter how relevant athletics is, it's a DEX task so sucks to be you," which isn't interesting or illuminating to the discussion.
I'd say: ask the DM. The rules don't say what to do with monsters that have to make skill checks with a different ability than usual (I don't think, if they do then follow that).
A very good question - that asks for a ruling by any DM, as the rules don't even try to cover it. It is not specific to wild shape by the way : any NPC, familiar, conjured monster, ranger's companion, polymorphed PC (and others) use monster's stat blocks - and may lead to that situation when you use the "Skills with Different Abilities" variant rule.
As i'm using option 1 for a druid, I'd probably ask the player to disregard the beast's skill bonuses, and use relevant ability modifiers + his own proficiency bonus. If they both have proficiency and the druid insists on "benefiting from the beast's heigthened expertise", I'd let him calculate the specific proficiency bonus the beast has for that skill, and use it instead of his own - as long as he does so quickly and accurately. I'd be more reluctant to use the skill bonus "as is" if there is a big difference between ability scores.
I feel this is not worth arguing for at the table - because it won't happen often (beasts mostly have perception and stealth proficiencies, and there are not that much situations where you'd use other stats for these two), and the difference is not that significant (at most +2, and only during tier 1, if you are using the relevant ability modifier).
That "what is at stake?" question is also useful to evaluate the various methods : When using option 1, a low level druid may feel cheated and say "I should be able to use the creature's skill bonus !". It only happens when he gains a skill from a beast with some "hidden expertise", and the stakes are low : +1 or +2. That's what started this topic. When using option 7, a high level druid may feel cheated an say "I should be able to use my own proficiency bonus!". It happens often when he gains a skill from a beast (if you play a high level druid...), and the stakes are a bit higher : up to +4. Using option 4 always gives the better results to the druid (unless the player is considering option 2 or 3...) - and it's probably another good property of that method.
Serious question here (as in, not a rhetorical question to make a point): what happens when the DM calls for a Dexterity (Athletics) check? There's a disconnect between monster stat blocks and PC rules, which is that there's no such thing as "skill bonus" for PCs, because PCs never make skill checks. They make ability checks, and they can apply their proficiency bonus if they have a relevant proficiency*. How would the various voices in this thread deal with is? Is the DM required to completely readjust how they think about calling for rolls because the druid suddenly has monster stats?
*This is explicitly true even if playing with fixed ability-skill associations, but the answer in that case is "it doesn't matter how relevant athletics is, it's a DEX task so sucks to be you," which isn't interesting or illuminating to the discussion.
I don't believe monster stat blocks were designed with this particular optional variant rule in mind, as you i think point out. Since proficiency bonus is not a stat of a monster that is easily accessible, the only real options for a monster to make a non-standard skill check are to make a straight ability check for the ability (i.e. without proficiency) or to continue to use their skill bonus in their stat block (i.e. the only way we have to deal with an ability check related to a skill where proficiency matters).
Once wildshape is thrown into things, then the druid has the option of adding their proficiency bonus to their (new) ability mod.
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The wildshape rules specifically say you get the beast's proficiencies and only let you use your bonuses if you are also proficient and your bonus is higher. If you are not proficient in athletics or perception, the rules require you to use the ape's skill bonuses.
Well it looks like I stirred up the hornet's nest on this topic. lol. So there are a lot of opinions and I want to get us on the same page I am going to give an example druid and an example beast and we can see where we think this lies with some different interpretations.
Or Druid, Bob, has the following stats: Level 5 (prof bonus +3). Str: 8 (-1) Dex: 16(+3) Con: 14(+2) Int: 10 (+0) Wis: 18(+4) Cha: 10(+0). Skill Prof: Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3)
Bob uses wild shape to transform into a Panther. Keep in mind the panther has expertise in stealth here. Panther has the follow stats that are relevant to the example: Str: 14(+2) Dex: 15(+2) Con: 10 (+0). Skill profs: Perception +4, stealth +6. Now keep in mind that a Panther is a CR 1/4 which means their prof bonus is +2 per the MM.
So Bob uses wild shape. What happens. We know that Bob now has a Str of 14, Dex of 15, and Con of 10. So n this case he gained some Str but lost some dex and Con. Now lets look at the skills. We will just use a couple of the skills that are relevant here.
1) Athletics becomes +2. The Str has increased but neither bob nor the panther are proficient. Perception is +7 because they are both proficient and bob's skill was higher. Stealth becomes +6 because the panther was proficient and has a higher skill bonus. I think this is the way MOST people interpret the rule.
2) Athletics is still +2. Perception is still +7. Stealth is +8 because of the Panther's +2 Dex, but since they are not both proficient we always use Bob's proficiency bonus and since the panther has expertise that would give a +6 on top of the dex.
3) Athletics is still +2. Perception is still + 7. Stealth is +5 because you can gain proficiency but not expertise. And since both are not proficient you have to use Bob's proficiency bonus of +3.
4) Athletics is still +2. Perception is still +7. Stealth is +4 because you can gain proficiency but not expertise and since the skill belonged to the panther you use the panther's proficiency bonus.
Unless I am missing some other options I think this sums up most of what I have seen. The big thing is Do you only choose which skill when they are both proficient or do you always choose the better skill? What happens if Bob had a +8 stealth and was not proficient in stealth and changes to the panther who is? Do you still get the +8 or do you drop to +6 or something else? Please debate!
I've tried to define several "options" earlier ; you do introduce new ones, so I'll add them to the list for future reference.
#Option 1 : Only consider beast's skill bonus when both have proficiency.
Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+5)
Matches your 3) : D&D:B current's integration, and my personal way of reading RAW.
#Option 2 : Take the better skill bonus without any calculation
Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+6)
Results matches your 1) - but leads imho to issues, like wrestling centipedes, when the druid has high physical stats. Does not seem so popular here anymore, but has some support on rpg.se. If the druid had a better stealth skill bonus because of high dexterity (like in your Dex 26 example), this is the only method that allows you to keep it - others do use updated ability modifiers, while this one doesn't.
#Option 3 : Take the better available proficiency bonus, calculated from the stat block.
Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+6)
Results also matches your 1) - but not so popular because of the heavy calculation needed. Here we keep the Panther's +4 "already doubled" proficiency bonus on stealth.
#Option 4 : Always consider beast's skill bonus.
Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+6)
Results (and method?) matches your 1), and indeed a very popular interpretation - shared by WolfOfTheBees, DxJxC, and filcat.
#Option 5 : Apply beast's expertise on top of druid's proficiency bonus.
Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+8)
Matches your 2) : I wouldn't use this, because improving a skill bonus because you had no proficiency in the first place makes no sense - and the beast has no explicit rule asking you to double your proficiency bonus. I've seen supporters of option 2 also support this, though.
#Option 6 : Take the better available proficiency bonus, derived from Challenge Rating.
Wild shaped skill bonuses : Insight: Wis(+7) Medicine: Wis (+7) Nature: Int (+3) Perception: Wis (+7) Religion: Int (+3), Stealth:Dex (+4)
Matches your 4) : Here's a new challenger ! I've never seen support on this one, though.
I'm sorry, guys.
I know you are all trying to help me understand that feature "properly" (thank you for trying!), but it looks like I've been thinking about this for too long to be able to change my mind without some sort of official errata :)
I think I see where we disagree : to me, "having proficiency" means you can add your proficiency bonus to the relevant ability modifier when rolling for an ability check.
Skill bonuses are just subtotals used for convenience on stat blocks and character sheets.
Hence, when the rules say that "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.", I think you are supposed to gain proficiencies, not skill bonuses.
To me, " If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." is the only part of the feature that refers to the creature's skill bonus.
Please note that the rewording you used (in red) does not match the actual rule : the rule tells you to use the creature's bonus "IF [condition 1] AND [condition 2]" are met - which means you stick to the the druid's "normal" calculation (including the relevant ability modifier, and his proficiency bonus) if either [condition 1] OR [condition 2] is not met.
Would you also keep the creature's Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores - in addition to your own? (This is probably a bigger deal for Shapechange, which uses the same mechanics, but is not limited to beasts.)
That's where we disagree : to me, the following lines specify what you should do regarding ability scores and proficiencies, and we are in that "specific beats general" situation.
The feature tells you exactly what to do about abilities and proficiencies, when you can (and thus, cannot) use the creature's skill bonus - and it all replaces what you'd get from the full stat block.
But again : I guess that's OK we have different ways to read it !
And that is what is already done for the bonus listed in the stat block of the creature, since it is the creature that is proficient after all. Additionally, the creature may have other bonuses to skills besides ability and proficiency. The only numbers of those that we have direct access to from a beast's stat block are the ability modifier and the total.
We're not saying that is how you gain those bonuses. You gain them from the very first sentence of wildshape. Jeremy clarified that part in that Dragon Talk episode: "We intend that you put down your character sheet and pick up the stat block to use as your character." And really, that part was pretty obvious from the sentence before the clarification.
This sentence only applies when both have the same proficiency, so sure both conditions of the "if" must be met, but if they're not, that doesn't mean you invent rules to deal with those cases. That means in the other three cases, you cannot use this sentence. If the creature has the proficiency and you don't or vice versa, or if neither is proficient, then you default back to the previous explanations of how to arrive at a bonus. If the creature has proficiency and you don't, what is that? This is a legit question because you seem to be ignoring the very first sentence of wildshape, and so your interpretation is flawed from its basis.
No, you stick to the default. For the druid you are correct. For the beast, again, I will point out it has its own default with bonuses printed in their stat blocks for abilities that they have proficiency in. Again, I will ask if you if "your game statistics are replaced by the beast's" doesn't cover when [condition 1] is not met, but the beast has proficiency?
There are exceptions; those exceptions tell you how the work. That means that if the rule doesn't tell you what to do, you default back to this sentence first.
I agree. They specify what to do in particular cases, but not all. Meaning if you are outside of those cases, you default to the most specific rule pertaining to them, the first sentence of wildshape. I will keep saying this because outside of the exceptions provided further within wildshape, it is the most specific rule to account for anything your character can do while you are in wildshape. The exceptions here tell you exactly what they do. In cases that they don't cover, we don't need to try to invent rules to fit those situations.
If two legitimate readings came from a rule, I'd agree too. But to have your reading, you have to ignore text and imply rules from words that aren't on the page.
I'm glad I finally understood why we disagree !
One more question, though ; depending on your answer, I might have to add a 7th option to my list, so please answer directly (e.g : with a number) to the question.
Using Erogroth's example, what stealth skill bonus would you give Bob when in Panther shape after he reaches level 20 ?
First, Bob can't have a +8 to stealth without proficiency unless there is something else going on. Whether he gets to keep the additional bonus to the skill when he wildshapes depends on where it comes from. Foregoing that, I think the wild shape rules were written under the assumption that proficiency in a skill from the beast or druid would necessitate a higher bonus than not having proficiency in that same skill from the other source. I.e. the assumption is that if the beast is proficient, then the bonus in its stat block is higher than the non-proficient bonus of the druid. The edge cases where the ability bonus of one (the druid) is higher than the total bonus of the other (beast) are different whether it is a mental stat or a physical stat, because the beast's mental stats are replaced but physical stats are retained. For physical stats, it doesn't matter what your old bonus was, you're only left with the beast's physical stats. For mental stats, there is more ambiguity; You could use the bonus in the stat block or the mental ability stat bonus.
I am all for not recomputing anything that is already written down for us. If the beast is proficient, I assume that the value to use is the value printed in the stat block - but this is a personal ruling. I know that this is where many people's hang up is (though you seem to be on about something else). Do you re-compute skill bonuses using the new stats and the druid's proficiency bonus for skills that you gain proficiency from the beast? Or do you only compute skill bonuses that way for the druid's proficiences? I'm actually not entirely sure on what is intended here, but I'm fine with just using the printed values for anything the beast is proficient in — since we replace our game statistics with those of the beast.
And finally, none of this points to any change in the analysis of DDB’s bug — the bonus in the stat block is the absolute minimum bonus a character should get to a skill the beast had proficiency in.
I felt your last answer was not consistent with option 4 - because when only the beast has proficiency, if you consider using the ability modifier + proficiency bonus calculation, you are stuck with 2 different values with no rule to tell you which you should use. I don't think a stat block should ever get 2 different values for the same attribute, and it looks like you feel the same.
The way you use it, it is a new option - which is absolutely consistent with what you said before. Call it RAW if you like, I'll label it :
#Option 7 : Beast's skill bonus Or druid's proficiency bonus, depending on who gets proficiency.
To clarify the differences between Options 1, 4 and 7, based on the various formulas :
Use the beast's STR, DEX and CON modifier, or the druid's INT, WIS or CHA (aka the "relevant ability modifier")
used by all 3 methods when neither the druid, nor the beast, has proficiency. (yay, a consensus!)
Sum the relevant ability modifier with the druid's proficiency bonus (aka "the druid's updated skill bonus")
used by option 1 when either the druid, or the beast, has proficiency
used by options 4 and 7 when only the druid has proficiency
Use the beast's skill bonus :
used by option 7 when only the beast has proficiency.
Use the maximum between the beast's skill bonus, and the druid's updated skill bonus
used by all 3 methods when both the druid and the beast have proficiency (yay, another one!)
used by option 4 when only the beast has proficiency
I still like option 1 the most (and, consequently, think there's no bug in D&D:B), but you've made strong arguments for option 7, and I also did consider option 4 in the past. I wouldn't bet on which is closer to RAW or RAI - but I'd gladly accept any Sage Advice Compendium update that matches any of these.
I am not sure whether 4 or 7 is correct, owing to there not being text that says anything about the beats's proficiencies beyond gaining the statistics of the beast and what to do if you have two sources of proficiency. My gut says that means you default to the "gaining the statistics of the beast" part of wildshape, but many others compute them differently, and I'm willing to be persuaded either way between those. I think 1 is out because you DO get those bonuses from the first sentence of wildshape.
There is a reading that says that all of the beast proficiencies that you gain via wildshape are now proficiencies that you temporarily have as a druid. Therefore, every proficiency that the beast has is one that you both now have. This splits proficiencies into only two categories: ones that only the druid has and ones that both have. This would make 4 the reading of choice: All of the skill bonuses can be computed as your new ability mod + your druid proficiency bonus, and you consider the total in the stat block when there is one and choose what is higher.
I think the rule is intended to be simple. I think it should be simple but there are questions. If both the druid and the creature are proficient, look at who has the final higher bonus using their prof and ability modifier and using that one. If Bob has a 14 Dex and a +3 prof, then he would end up with +6 stealth from the panther who has the +2 Dex and the +4 prof due to expertise.
Where it gets confusing is what if Bob is proficient in Athletics? Bob has a str of 8 so with his prof bonus he will have athletics +2. So after wild shape is his athletics +2 or has it gone up to +5 since he gained the Panther's strength? If this is the case, then lets say bob transforms into a Cat and Bob is also proficient in stealth and Bob has a Dex of 18. Bob's stealth normally is a +7, but since he is a cat his dex has dropped from 18 to 15. So does he only get +5 since his dex is only +2 but he can choose the higher prof bonus which is his +3? What I am wondering is does the rule basically say if both the druid and the beast are proficient you Can't change the Dex bonus since we know that it belongs to the beast, but you can choose the proficiency bonus. I mean how does a cat get a +7 stealth? It can't if it has a dex of+2 and a prof bonus of either +2 or +3. The only way it can get a +7 is if we say "don't worry about it. Just take the +7 cause it's easier than doing math.
It is indeed probably the most elegant solution (@Erogroth : if looking for simplicity, look no further!) - but It did not get much support on rpg.se. Which probably does not mean much, as option 2 is still the top one there.
There is an easy solution and that is an official update in Sage Advice.
I have also tweeted JC to get clarity but no response as of yet. Perhaps if more people respond asking for a clearing definition he will respond accordingly. https://twitter.com/erogroth/status/1228428035377881088
Serious question here (as in, not a rhetorical question to make a point): what happens when the DM calls for a Dexterity (Athletics) check? There's a disconnect between monster stat blocks and PC rules, which is that there's no such thing as "skill bonus" for PCs, because PCs never make skill checks. They make ability checks, and they can apply their proficiency bonus if they have a relevant proficiency*. How would the various voices in this thread deal with is? Is the DM required to completely readjust how they think about calling for rolls because the druid suddenly has monster stats?
*This is explicitly true even if playing with fixed ability-skill associations, but the answer in that case is "it doesn't matter how relevant athletics is, it's a DEX task so sucks to be you," which isn't interesting or illuminating to the discussion.
If they have an athletics bonus in their stat block, I would say that they could use that on any X (athletics) check, even a charisma (athletics) check should one be called for. Should they recalculate a new bonus to that check to see if it is higher, too? Who knows. The bonuses to skills for creatures are just that in my eyes: totals to add to particular skills. They're also calculated in mysterious ways; they're not always simply regular ability mod + proficiency bonus, and they're even occasionally different from ability mod + double proficiency (expertise). Above that, those skill bonuses also never explained; nothing tells you what the beast's proficiency bonus is (besides back-calculation or guessing from the CR charts) or what ability mod was used to calculate them.
If they don't have a bonus in their stat block then the relevant way to calculate the bonus would be (the druid's) proficiency bonus (if relevant) + ability mod that was called for.
I know technically, we call for ability checks rather than skill checks; but functionally, we are mostly interested in skill checks. I would probably effectively treat them as such.
I'd say: ask the DM. The rules don't say what to do with monsters that have to make skill checks with a different ability than usual (I don't think, if they do then follow that).
A very good question - that asks for a ruling by any DM, as the rules don't even try to cover it. It is not specific to wild shape by the way : any NPC, familiar, conjured monster, ranger's companion, polymorphed PC (and others) use monster's stat blocks - and may lead to that situation when you use the "Skills with Different Abilities" variant rule.
As i'm using option 1 for a druid, I'd probably ask the player to disregard the beast's skill bonuses, and use relevant ability modifiers + his own proficiency bonus. If they both have proficiency and the druid insists on "benefiting from the beast's heigthened expertise", I'd let him calculate the specific proficiency bonus the beast has for that skill, and use it instead of his own - as long as he does so quickly and accurately. I'd be more reluctant to use the skill bonus "as is" if there is a big difference between ability scores.
I feel this is not worth arguing for at the table - because it won't happen often (beasts mostly have perception and stealth proficiencies, and there are not that much situations where you'd use other stats for these two), and the difference is not that significant (at most +2, and only during tier 1, if you are using the relevant ability modifier).
That "what is at stake?" question is also useful to evaluate the various methods :
When using option 1, a low level druid may feel cheated and say "I should be able to use the creature's skill bonus !". It only happens when he gains a skill from a beast with some "hidden expertise", and the stakes are low : +1 or +2. That's what started this topic.
When using option 7, a high level druid may feel cheated an say "I should be able to use my own proficiency bonus!". It happens often when he gains a skill from a beast (if you play a high level druid...), and the stakes are a bit higher : up to +4.
Using option 4 always gives the better results to the druid (unless the player is considering option 2 or 3...) - and it's probably another good property of that method.
I don't believe monster stat blocks were designed with this particular optional variant rule in mind, as you i think point out. Since proficiency bonus is not a stat of a monster that is easily accessible, the only real options for a monster to make a non-standard skill check are to make a straight ability check for the ability (i.e. without proficiency) or to continue to use their skill bonus in their stat block (i.e. the only way we have to deal with an ability check related to a skill where proficiency matters).
Once wildshape is thrown into things, then the druid has the option of adding their proficiency bonus to their (new) ability mod.