With this rule, Druids can use Wild Shape to turn into beasts with Flying or Swim speeds, even if they are below level 8 and 4, respectively. The normal cap on CR still applies.
If a Druid turns into a form with a Flying or Swim speed, and that Druid is not yet high enough level to use that form normally (i.e. below level 8 or 4, respectively), instead the Druid form will be greatly reduced. It will have a duration of 10 minutes, and the druid will be unable to attack or interact with objects in that form, in addition to other restrictions.
Designer's note: I love druids, but in my experience RAW druids seem to have a number of issues that make them less fun to play.
The average dnd group likes to start at level 1, and mine is no exception. Typically we seem to get our characters to level 6 and then the campaign falls away. I know this is very common and that dnd groups rarely see level 20, and many never even see level 10. This means that those first few levels are the most important for the vast majority of dnd characters.
For most classes, this is fine. But for druids, it all combines to create one very frustrating problem:
I HAVE NEVER ONCE TURNED INTO A BIRD.
That pesky restriction, 'No Flying Speed until level 8' - by the Gods it's frustrating. How is it easier to turn into a Crocodile than a Raven? And why is it equally easy to turn into a Giant Eagle as it is to turn into an Eagle (you get both at level 8)? Why would you ever turn into an Eagle when you could turn into a Giant Eagle? Has any druid in the history of dnd 5e ever actually turned into the Eagle over the Giant version?
I find the restriction on Flying and Swim speeds for Wild Shape to be unnecessarily restrictive and fun sapping. The form is already limited by CR. A level 2 druid turning into an Eagle with a whopping 3 hp and a flying speed really can't be that OP compared to, say, Action Surge, can it? Or a 5th level Sorcerer with the Fly spell? Why can Sorcerers and Wizards fly at level 5, but a Druid has to wait until level 8? By the time druids can fly, every other spellcaster has had access to friggen' Dimension Door for a whole level.
So this Variant rule is designed to give Druids a unique, early, and iconic feature that nobody else gets until later in the game. It's designed to have no impact on combat whatsoever, so it really shouldn't be game breaking. It does give the druid player a lot more options for scouting around, which is the main intended use of this, in order to provide a valuable and flavourful niche to supplement the group. In my opinion, that's how a druid should play. Sure, you could power game with your level 2 Giant Hyena Circle of the Moon Druid. Or, with this variant rule, you can leave combat to the heavy hitters and fulfil a versatile support role instead.
TLDR: I wanna turn into an Eagle at level 2. Sorry for the word vomit.
I propose: halving the normal level restrictions (level 2 swimming, level 4 flying), and if you are not the normal required levels (4 or 8) then your CR limit is halved and your duration is 10 minutrs time half your druid level (rounded up).
I do agree that the existing level restrictions are stricter than spells that grant these movement speeds, and that should not be.
Druids are extremely powerful from levels 2-4. They do not need a boost to make them more fun. If anything, they need to be made less powerful at those levels, not more powerful.
Do you propose letting level 3 Wizards cast Wish because most campaigns won't let them get to that level, and it's just not possible to enjoy D&D if your Druid can't become an Eagle at level 2 and your Wizard can't cash Wish at level 3?
I agree that the no swim speed/fly speed is strange. We have races with swim or fly speed at lvl 1. But if i were to change it, i would only change fly speed and 1 CR from 8th lvl to 6th lvl. A single level before you have access to polymorph.
Do you propose letting level 3 Wizards cast Wish because most campaigns won't let them get to that level, and it's just not possible to enjoy D&D if your Druid can't become an Eagle at level 2 and your Wizard can't cash Wish at level 3?
This is a strange and largely unrelated rant that doesnt compare to what is actually being suggested at all.
It would be more accurate to compare it to granting a level 11 Wizard an extremely limited version of wish (like can only replicate level 5 and lower spells and can't target non-willing creatures with it).
Gabrielrockman - I agree that Druids can be powerful levels 2-4, especially Circle of the Moon. I think Circle of the Moon Wild Shape is actually too powerful, and standard Wild Shape is slightly under powered. This variant rule is designed to create more flexibility rather than more power.
Your second comment is a strawman - I do not recommend letting wizards cast Wish at level 3.
Halfling2099, you raise an interesting point in using Polymorph as a guideline for when classes can transform and what they transform into. Polymorph can transform the target into a beast with a CR equal to or less than their level. That's actually situationally better than Wild Shape. Your point about races with swim/fly speeds at lvl 1 is also a really good one that I hadn't thought of.
DxJxC, thanks for your comments, I have nothing to add really, except to say if it works for you then great ;)
I like the idea. First thing I thought of was making it so becoming a swimming or flying creature uses 2 wild shapes instead of just 1 until they reach the required level.
You would still unlock Swimming with 1 slot first, thus still unlocking its full benefits before flying. Could nerf it a little more but I don't thing I'd go with only 10 minute duration with no attacks other actions. Maybe just have it last half as long.
The question about Wish was necessary to establish that you do understand that more powerful class abilities should be given at higher levels and not lower levels.
Therefore, since we have established that you do understand that higher level class abilities should not be given to lower level characters, the question becomes: why should flight not be considered a higher level class ability? Players having the ability to fly makes things a lot more complicated for the DM, which is why it's perfectly acceptable for them to ban PCs from taking a flying race for their character in a campaign, and why it makes sense for flight to not be given to low level players.
There's already too much power given to low level Circle of the Moon Druids, and levels 4-9 is already a range where Circle of the Moon's power progression is slow compared to other characters. Taking one of the few things they get in that level range and giving it to low level Druids makes this problem even worse.
Since you do acknowledge that some higher level class abilities should not be given to low level characters, what abilities do you suggest be withheld from low level Circle of the Moon Druids until this level 4-9 range? Since apparently Swimming and Flying shouldn't be abilities gained in this level range, what do you propose to put there in their place?
Since you do acknowledge that some higher level class abilities should not be given to low level characters, what abilities do you suggest be withheld from low level Circle of the Moon Druids until this level 4-9 range? Since apparently Swimming and Flying shouldn't be abilities gained in this level range, what do you propose to put there in their place?
Part of my original reply was that druid wild shape is more limited than water breathing and fly which are gained at level 5. And being a wizard casting spells from 60 feet in the air is far more powerful than an eagle that can only make melee attacks and available 3 levels earlier.
I (and the OP) was attempting to propose an option that gave the druid similar utility to the Wizard (in one regard at least) without significantly increasing its power. And I think I succeeded.
And the druid doesnt need any new features at level 4 and 8, it gets an ASI and a spell slot.
Since you do acknowledge that some higher level class abilities should not be given to low level characters, what abilities do you suggest be withheld from low level Circle of the Moon Druids until this level 4-9 range? Since apparently Swimming and Flying shouldn't be abilities gained in this level range, what do you propose to put there in their place?
Part of my original reply was that druid wild shape is more limited than water breathing and fly which are gained at level 5. And being a wizard casting spells from 60 feet in the air is far more powerful than an eagle that can only make melee attacks and available 3 levels earlier.
I (and the OP) was attempting to propose an option that gave the druid similar utility to the Wizard (in one regard at least) without significantly increasing its power. And I think I succeeded.
And the druid doesnt need any new features at level 4 and 8, it gets an ASI and a spell slot.
Druid Wildshape doesn't require concentration, and lasts for an hour for every two levels of Druid you have (unless you make a house rule to change this), whereas Fly requires concentration and only lasts 10 minutes. And you'll take 6D6 falling damage if the Wizard loses concentration while you're 60ft up in the air, unless someone is able to cast Feather Fall.
I don't think anyone is arguing that this should be changed for AL. I think the argument is that homebrewing this rule adds a little utility and a lot of fun in those early levels. Adding DxJxC's limitations further diminishes the reasons for using this as a moon druid. Moon druids value CR for their shape and the uses of their shape in combat too much to bother with changing into a flying creature in most cases. If there were a valid reason to do this then sure. But it would be a massive trade off.
I actually love these ideas and fully intend on allowing the druid at my new table to do something along these lines.
Random thought from a relative newbie: Why not have a reduced CR rating for flying/swimming? CR reduced by 1 or 50%, rounded down, with the lowest available CR being 0 until Levels 4&8.
Druids are extremely powerful from levels 2-4. They do not need a boost to make them more fun. If anything, they need to be made less powerful at those levels, not more powerful.
Let put aside Moon druids because I think their Level-wild shape CR level table needs to be nerfed a bit. But Druids get 1 fewer cantrips than Clerics and Wizards, unlike Clerics who get their domain at level 1 Druids get their sub-class at level 2, druid cantrips and spells do less damage than Wizards and Clerics, and they're not supposed to wear metal armor unlike Cleics, and unlike Wizards and Clerics they don't get a shield spell. And while druids do get wild shape at 2nd level, the most powerful beast they can transform into is a giant wolf spider with 11 HP or a giant frog with 18 HP. And they're stuck with these 1/4 CR beasts until Level 4. So how are druids extremely powerful at levels 2-4?
Other than Moon druids, please explain what makes druids extremely powerful at levels 2-4, compared to other classes at levels 2-4.
With this rule, Druids can use Wild Shape to turn into beasts with Flying or Swim speeds, even if they are below level 8 and 4, respectively. The normal cap on CR still applies.
If a Druid turns into a form with a Flying or Swim speed, and that Druid is not yet high enough level to use that form normally (i.e. below level 8 or 4, respectively), instead the Druid form will be greatly reduced. It will have a duration of 10 minutes, and the druid will be unable to attack or interact with objects in that form, in addition to other restrictions.
Designer's note:
I love druids, but in my experience RAW druids seem to have a number of issues that make them less fun to play.
The average dnd group likes to start at level 1, and mine is no exception. Typically we seem to get our characters to level 6 and then the campaign falls away. I know this is very common and that dnd groups rarely see level 20, and many never even see level 10. This means that those first few levels are the most important for the vast majority of dnd characters.
For most classes, this is fine. But for druids, it all combines to create one very frustrating problem:
I HAVE NEVER ONCE TURNED INTO A BIRD.
That pesky restriction, 'No Flying Speed until level 8' - by the Gods it's frustrating. How is it easier to turn into a Crocodile than a Raven? And why is it equally easy to turn into a Giant Eagle as it is to turn into an Eagle (you get both at level 8)? Why would you ever turn into an Eagle when you could turn into a Giant Eagle? Has any druid in the history of dnd 5e ever actually turned into the Eagle over the Giant version?
I find the restriction on Flying and Swim speeds for Wild Shape to be unnecessarily restrictive and fun sapping. The form is already limited by CR. A level 2 druid turning into an Eagle with a whopping 3 hp and a flying speed really can't be that OP compared to, say, Action Surge, can it? Or a 5th level Sorcerer with the Fly spell? Why can Sorcerers and Wizards fly at level 5, but a Druid has to wait until level 8? By the time druids can fly, every other spellcaster has had access to friggen' Dimension Door for a whole level.
So this Variant rule is designed to give Druids a unique, early, and iconic feature that nobody else gets until later in the game. It's designed to have no impact on combat whatsoever, so it really shouldn't be game breaking. It does give the druid player a lot more options for scouting around, which is the main intended use of this, in order to provide a valuable and flavourful niche to supplement the group. In my opinion, that's how a druid should play. Sure, you could power game with your level 2 Giant Hyena Circle of the Moon Druid. Or, with this variant rule, you can leave combat to the heavy hitters and fulfil a versatile support role instead.
TLDR: I wanna turn into an Eagle at level 2. Sorry for the word vomit.
Comments welcome!
I propose: halving the normal level restrictions (level 2 swimming, level 4 flying), and if you are not the normal required levels (4 or 8) then your CR limit is halved and your duration is 10 minutrs time half your druid level (rounded up).
I do agree that the existing level restrictions are stricter than spells that grant these movement speeds, and that should not be.
Druids are extremely powerful from levels 2-4. They do not need a boost to make them more fun. If anything, they need to be made less powerful at those levels, not more powerful.
Do you propose letting level 3 Wizards cast Wish because most campaigns won't let them get to that level, and it's just not possible to enjoy D&D if your Druid can't become an Eagle at level 2 and your Wizard can't cash Wish at level 3?
I agree that the no swim speed/fly speed is strange. We have races with swim or fly speed at lvl 1. But if i were to change it, i would only change fly speed and 1 CR from 8th lvl to 6th lvl. A single level before you have access to polymorph.
This is a strange and largely unrelated rant that doesnt compare to what is actually being suggested at all.
It would be more accurate to compare it to granting a level 11 Wizard an extremely limited version of wish (like can only replicate level 5 and lower spells and can't target non-willing creatures with it).
Gabrielrockman - I agree that Druids can be powerful levels 2-4, especially Circle of the Moon. I think Circle of the Moon Wild Shape is actually too powerful, and standard Wild Shape is slightly under powered. This variant rule is designed to create more flexibility rather than more power.
Your second comment is a strawman - I do not recommend letting wizards cast Wish at level 3.
Halfling2099, you raise an interesting point in using Polymorph as a guideline for when classes can transform and what they transform into. Polymorph can transform the target into a beast with a CR equal to or less than their level. That's actually situationally better than Wild Shape. Your point about races with swim/fly speeds at lvl 1 is also a really good one that I hadn't thought of.
DxJxC, thanks for your comments, I have nothing to add really, except to say if it works for you then great ;)
I like the idea. First thing I thought of was making it so becoming a swimming or flying creature uses 2 wild shapes instead of just 1 until they reach the required level.
You would still unlock Swimming with 1 slot first, thus still unlocking its full benefits before flying. Could nerf it a little more but I don't thing I'd go with only 10 minute duration with no attacks other actions. Maybe just have it last half as long.
The question about Wish was necessary to establish that you do understand that more powerful class abilities should be given at higher levels and not lower levels.
Therefore, since we have established that you do understand that higher level class abilities should not be given to lower level characters, the question becomes: why should flight not be considered a higher level class ability? Players having the ability to fly makes things a lot more complicated for the DM, which is why it's perfectly acceptable for them to ban PCs from taking a flying race for their character in a campaign, and why it makes sense for flight to not be given to low level players.
There's already too much power given to low level Circle of the Moon Druids, and levels 4-9 is already a range where Circle of the Moon's power progression is slow compared to other characters. Taking one of the few things they get in that level range and giving it to low level Druids makes this problem even worse.
Since you do acknowledge that some higher level class abilities should not be given to low level characters, what abilities do you suggest be withheld from low level Circle of the Moon Druids until this level 4-9 range? Since apparently Swimming and Flying shouldn't be abilities gained in this level range, what do you propose to put there in their place?
Part of my original reply was that druid wild shape is more limited than water breathing and fly which are gained at level 5. And being a wizard casting spells from 60 feet in the air is far more powerful than an eagle that can only make melee attacks and available 3 levels earlier.
I (and the OP) was attempting to propose an option that gave the druid similar utility to the Wizard (in one regard at least) without significantly increasing its power. And I think I succeeded.
And the druid doesnt need any new features at level 4 and 8, it gets an ASI and a spell slot.
Druid Wildshape doesn't require concentration, and lasts for an hour for every two levels of Druid you have (unless you make a house rule to change this), whereas Fly requires concentration and only lasts 10 minutes. And you'll take 6D6 falling damage if the Wizard loses concentration while you're 60ft up in the air, unless someone is able to cast Feather Fall.
A simpler solution would be to just add the spell "Fly" to the Druid's spell list (Water Breathing is already on there).
I don't think anyone is arguing that this should be changed for AL. I think the argument is that homebrewing this rule adds a little utility and a lot of fun in those early levels. Adding DxJxC's limitations further diminishes the reasons for using this as a moon druid. Moon druids value CR for their shape and the uses of their shape in combat too much to bother with changing into a flying creature in most cases. If there were a valid reason to do this then sure. But it would be a massive trade off.
I actually love these ideas and fully intend on allowing the druid at my new table to do something along these lines.
Random thought from a relative newbie: Why not have a reduced CR rating for flying/swimming? CR reduced by 1 or 50%, rounded down, with the lowest available CR being 0 until Levels 4&8.
Let put aside Moon druids because I think their Level-wild shape CR level table needs to be nerfed a bit. But Druids get 1 fewer cantrips than Clerics and Wizards, unlike Clerics who get their domain at level 1 Druids get their sub-class at level 2, druid cantrips and spells do less damage than Wizards and Clerics, and they're not supposed to wear metal armor unlike Cleics, and unlike Wizards and Clerics they don't get a shield spell. And while druids do get wild shape at 2nd level, the most powerful beast they can transform into is a giant wolf spider with 11 HP or a giant frog with 18 HP. And they're stuck with these 1/4 CR beasts until Level 4. So how are druids extremely powerful at levels 2-4?
Other than Moon druids, please explain what makes druids extremely powerful at levels 2-4, compared to other classes at levels 2-4.
Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in the last year.