I am currently playing Curse of Strahd with a bit of a difficulty increase and we are planning to go to level 15. The Monk I was playing unfortunately perished in a run in with a hoard of vampire spawn. We are now level 4 and I have just rolled a Barbarian 1/Moon Druid 3 character. The reason I distributed the levels like this was to start with 2 level spells, for moon beam when not wild shaped, because I can not damage werewolves while in wild shape until Druid level 6. I plan to eventually get to level 3 Barbarian to go Bear totem, for the resistances and was wonder how I should go about leveling up optimally. Should I go straight to level 3 Barbarian and take the rest Druid, Is there any merit to going to Barbarian 5 for extra attack, Should I stagger my level ups take one in Barbarian and then one druid and repeat?
*Please no spoilers for the module, this is my first time playing it, I just want some advice on leveling.
In case this helps in any way My character is a Variant Human with the Sentinel Feat and my stats after racial bonuses are 13/16/18/14/18/14 (I rolled really well on my stats)
i would personally say after getting level 3 on barbarian just go all on druid. instead of getting to lvl 5 on barbarian you can just wild shape into a beast that can multiattack. it also depends if you wanna play as a caster. (still this is just my personal opinion)
It's hard sometimes, because you don't want to lose out on that 2nd attack. True, as a Moon Druid, you will be using your beast forms. But after you are peeled like an onion of your two wild shapes - in the end (at your core) you are a barbarian. This is definitely a judgement call. Sooner or latter you will have to make the decision to delay higher Druid levels or let the 2nd attack in barbarian form go.
There is a lot here to consider, but for the most part, I wouldn't take more levels of barbarian than you need.
Extra attack doesn't work with multiattack from beast statblocks, meaning you'd have to consider if there are actually any beasts that would benefit using one of their attacks twice rather than the options at the same tier using multiattack.
Without wildshape, you are a druid too. Druids have a great spell list with some useful combat options that only get better as spell levels increase. Each level you take in barbarian delays your spellcasting progression.
Speaking of delaying druid options, each level you take in barbarian pushes back the level that your wildshape gains increases in CR. Moon druids already run into the problem that wildshape is exceedingly powerful at character level 2, but steadily declines in power because the wildshape forms don't scale as fast as other martial PCs. At druid 3/barb 5, you're stuck at CR 1 beasts (some of which already have multiattack), and have pushed off CR 2 beasts by 2 more levels with not much to show for it (since multiattack and extra attack don't stack).
"Speaking of delaying druid options, each level you take in barbarian pushes back the level that your wildshape gains increases in CR. Moon druids already run into the problem that wildshape is exceedingly powerful at character level 2, but steadily declines in power because the wildshape forms don't scale as fast as other martial PCs. At druid 3/barb 5, you're stuck at CR 1 beasts (some of which already have multiattack), and have pushed off CR 2 beasts by 2 more levels with not much to show for it (since multiattack and extra attack don't stack)."
One of things that bothers me is that you only get 2 wild shapes per short rest. I know, you can (usually) get short rests, but it still aggravates me. The other two issues are not being able to communicate or cast spells in animal form. I may have found a work around for those though.
1. Can't communicate in animal form. If you take a dip in warlock and go with the great old one patron, you will get awakened mind which will enable you to communicate with anyone at a range of 30 feet (if they know "any" language - some creatures have a language). There are also two races I know of that have this same limited telepathy: Ghost Wise Halfling & a very new race - Verdan. I see a trend with allowing the Druid and others to communicate telepathically. I think this will continue to open up other options.
2. Can't cast spells in animal form. If you take three levels in sorcerer, you get meta-magic. You will have a pool of 3 sorcerer points. This is enough to cast 1 twinned spell and one subtle spell - or three subtle spells. Subtle spell allows you to cast a spell that has no material components and bypass verbal and somatic parts. This (to me) means you could be in animal form and cast certain spells. The stronger spells on the Druid list do require material components, but there is a surprising number of really good ones with no material component. This should allow three spells cast in animal form. It may not be the intent of the meta-magic but I think it works RAW.
2. Can't cast spells in animal form. If you take three levels in sorcerer, you get meta-magic. You will have a pool of 3 sorcerer points. This is enough to cast 1 twinned spell and one subtle spell - or three subtle spells. Subtle spell allows you to cast a spell that has no material components and bypass verbal and somatic parts. This (to me) means you could be in animal form and cast certain spells. The stronger spells on the Druid list do require material components, but there is a surprising number of really good ones with no material component. This should allow three spells cast in animal form. It may not be the intent of the meta-magic but I think it works RAW.
What do you think?
The spell casting rule for wildshape is a hard rule, as I understand. The restriction is simply "You can’t cast spells," and so gaining the ability to ignore V and S components doesn't fix that.
The druid part of the class features section of Sage Advice essentially says the same (asking about shifting into elemental creatures that can speak).
First off, I just wanna thank any who replied for the advice.
I am aware that multiattack and extra attack don’t stack, I was thinking of it more in the lines of this:
1.) A brown bear (and eventually polar bear) do 2d6 with their claws and only 1d8 with their bite, with extra attack I could do two claw attacks instead, increasing my damage output by a fair bit it think.
2.) With extra attack I would be able to attack twice with any creature, opening up a lot more viable combat options.
As for limited Wild Shapes/Rages, I’m not too worried about running out, because my dm is fairly good at giving us rest at appropriate times so far. If I do run out it’s not the end of the world, because I have my spells and cantrips to fall back on, plus my AC is pretty good in my base form at a 19, which allows me to be a somewhat decent tank at times.
And for leveling I was thinking of going Barbarian 4/Druid 11, my thought process here is that I can get my last 2 ASI’s closer together (one to max my Wis, and the other to either max my Con or take another feat, not sure just yet) and still get access to 6th level spells.
However I’m still torn on wether the extra attack is worth giving up a 6th level slot for, either one could increase my overall damage and usefulness. Also the unarmored movement from Barb 5 would allow me to move around the battle field more and getting advantageous positions for flanking and what not, as well as being able to reach wounded or downed allies to heal them. It would also save me from taking the Mobile for the same reason or potentially increasing my speed further with both unarmored movement and mobile.
Any further advice would be appreciated, especially on potential feats I should look into or if I should just max my con instead. So far I’ve had my eye on:
1.) Mobile: as mentioned before
2.) War Caster: for concentrating on spells, like Moon Beam, and being able to cast spells as AoO’s
3.) Tough: for extra hit points increasing my survivability
4.) Mage Slayer: to potentially shut down spell casters, I have already encountered a few situations where this would have been useful and I know that there are Druids, Hags, etc. in Barovia, as well as Strahd himself, who can cast spells. Although it sounds somewhat useful, I’m not sure if this is a good feat or not, because I never really hear it talked about much.
According to Sage Advice, Tough affects the druid's hit points, and doesn't extend to the wild shape forms.
Going from brown bear to polar bear is essentially like getting a +1 weapon for the bear. You gain the ability to do so at Druid 6, where your attacks are considered magical, and you get a +1 to hit and a +1 to each damage's attacks. Again, you're talking about putting THAT off for 2 levels (that is, 2/3 of what you need to gain to go up a tier in CR). You shouldn't compare a brown bear with extra attack to one without it, you should be comparing a brown bear with extra attack to a polar bear with magical claws - because that is the functional difference at most total character levels. You are foregoing a +1 to hit and +1 on each attack for +2.5 damage on one attack, that is, as long as you are fighting something without non-magical damage resistance.
Assuming a 50% hit rate for the brown bear using extra attack, you get 0.5*(7+4) + 0.5*(7+4) = 11 expected damage on your two attacks with claws. For the Polar bear using multiattack, you get 0.55*(4.5+5) + 0.55*(7+5) = 11.825 expected damage. Don't forget, if the enemy is resistant to non-magical weapons, that 11 goes down to 5.5 but the 11.825 stays where it is. I don't know if generally this is the case, but between the polar bear and the brown bear, going up a tier is better than using extra attack.
And remember, every time you push off a druid level, you are taking the weird Moon druid power level curve (OP at level 2, steadily tailing down with a slight boost at 10, then powerful again only at 20) and making it less effective for you.
Edit: I realized I left off the rage bonus damage, but that is the same at barb3 and barb5 and so doesn't affect the overall results.
Just poking around the beasts and elemental forms available to wild shape, I found very few places exist where a creature using extra attack of a lesser CR is comparable to options in the next tier using their built in attacks/multiattack. The one notable example is that a CR3 giant snapping turtle does 1.2 more expected damage (again estimating a 50% hit rate for it) than the CR5 elemental forms. But for that extra wild shape expenditure, you lose that 1.2 damage, but gain all the resistances, movement and special abilities, and ~50 HP.
The dire wolf does well compared to the polar bear if you consider its pack tactics and ignore the fact that as a barbarian, you have on demand advantage. For a moon druid/barbarian, pack tactics goes from an offensive ability to a defensive one (advantage on your attacks without giving up advantage against you).
" The spell casting rule for wildshape is a hard rule, as I understand. The restriction is simply "You can’t cast spells," and so gaining the ability to ignore V and S components doesn't fix that."
The rules for disengage (no one being able to hit when you do this) was also a hard rule. But I see that sentinel bypasses this, as well as a certain oath of vengeance ability.
As far as extra attack not working, the PHB says that your abilities carry over. True, it would not work with multi-attack but if you found a creature to wild shape into that had one attack - that would be an option.
And, interestingly, if you were a barbarian/druid your unarmored defense should carry over to wild shape form. True you will probably not get a creature with both a dex and con bonus (con bonus is more often). But that would still give a few lifts in AC.
" The spell casting rule for wildshape is a hard rule, as I understand. The restriction is simply "You can’t cast spells," and so gaining the ability to ignore V and S components doesn't fix that."
The rules for disengage (no one being able to hit when you do this) was also a hard rule. But I see that sentinel bypasses this, as well as a certain oath of vengeance ability.
As far as extra attack not working, the PHB says that your abilities carry over. True, it would not work with multi-attack but if you found a creature to wild shape into that had one attack - that would be an option.
And, interestingly, if you were a barbarian/druid your unarmored defense should carry over to wild shape form. True you will probably not get a creature with both a dex and con bonus (con bonus is more often). But that would still give a few lifts in AC.
Most of this is wrong. The spellcasting rule is simple. You cannot cast spells. It is not due to anything other than that restriction, which is not lifted until 18th level for the druid. The sorcerer meta magic doesn't say that it bypasses this restriction so it doesn't.
I didn't say that extra attack doesn't work, I said it didn't work with multi-attack. Again, I did the math: Most of the time, using multi-attack at with a higher CR wildshape is better than using extra attack with a lower CR shape. Considering that you'll be at a lower CR than you could have been, you need to account for the decreased CR when you determine if extra attack is worth it. I showed that a polar bear using multi-attack is better than a brown bear using extra attack, even though you might not come to that conclusion intuitively.
You must choose between unarmored defense and the natural armor of the beast. You don't get to stack the dex and con mods on top of what the natural armor AC of the beast is listed as. You get one AC calculation, either the natural armor calculation or the unarmored defense calculation. As long as you are careful about that caveat, you may still see some improvements to AC.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, however....
"You must choose between unarmored defense and the natural armor of the beast. You don't get to stack the dex and con mods on top of what the natural armor AC of the beast is listed as. You get one AC calculation, either the natural armor calculation or the unarmored defense calculation. As long as you are careful about that caveat, you may still see some improvements to AC."
Right, exactly. And why would you not look at which animals which had high dx or con or both and choose unarmored? Besides, I see nothing to say you could not choose this when you wild shape.
"Most of this is wrong. The spell casting rule is simple. You cannot cast spells. It is not due to anything other than that restriction, which is not lifted until 18th level for the druid. The sorcerer meta magic doesn't say that it bypasses this restriction so it doesn't."
And what hard rule that says you can't communicate in animal form, and yet there are two races (perhaps three) that give telepathy and you could take warlock one level and take telepathy thru the great old one? This also is a hard rule, right?
"Most of the time, using multi-attack at with a higher CR wildshape is better than using extra attack with a lower CR shape."
Exactly, but as you said "most of the time". You error in that you assumed I meant under all circumstances. I very rarely talk about absolutes. And you didn't deal with the last issue I brought up that disengage (which is a hard rule) has many exceptions including Oath of Vengeance (1st level), sentinel, etc.
So, I don't think I was "mostly" wrong after all. :-)
Yes. When you reply to me quoting me and don't write what you mean or imply things that you haven't written or hide meanings behind use of vague language instead of absolutes or provide unrelated examples or don't mention the special circumstances that situations require, you will find that at least I will disagree with you. Anytime you, either by omission or direct statement, miss-characterize what I've said, I will disagree with you on principle.
For example, on the hard "no spellcasting in wildshape" rule: You provide examples of other exceptions that are unrelated and underdeveloped. You use the example of communication, but there is no hard rule on communication in wildshape: you are only limited by the form of the new beast. That means certainly anything that bypasses that new form's limitations will work, including racial features you retain. You point to disengage as a hard rule, but this rule actually helps prove my point. Specific features say that they cause disengage to fail to work. The only feature that says that it allows a druid in wildshape to cast is the feature Beast Spells that the druid gains at 18th level. Subtle Spell does not say that it gives a druid this ability, so it doesn't.
Uh, pardon, there is a "hard rule" about Druids not being able to communicate in animal form?
I'm sorry you can't have a gentleman's conversation and look at the facts - without casting your barbs and being hurt by someone challenging your supreme knowledge and goodness. You just seem so tightly wrapped. Yes, I used your words and my examples, please accept my apologies for being so rude. Only the audience will judge between our views, but they will at least know that I'm taking the higher ground. This is my last input on this discussion. Thank you for shutting down open and honest communication.
And finally, my point of all this is that there are ways around a lot of this (that you are not open to) and again, the audience will be the judge. I see D&D opening up with more and more exceptions with only a few hold outs that actually make the decisions. In the end the audience (players) will dictate because they are the consumers who pay....
And my point in all of this is simply that you can do anything you like when you don't care about the rules, but if you want to abide by those rules, then what they say is king. The rules simply don't provide ways around some of their limitations. The only way around those types of rules is ignoring them. Whatever you are saying about D&D opening up and the audience deciding is malarkey when it comes to rules questions.
And yes, I wrote my last response in an annoyed tone. It is very clear from your responses that you don't really consider what else is written on a topic (either by me or in the rule books) before you write your responses and trying to convey anything in that situation is frustrating to me. If that means you are taking the higher ground by using vague friendly language and appeals to the audience to hide your rude responses, so be it.
I thought at first you simply didn't understand the rule and tried to explain. I have learned through your responses that you just want it to work in a way that is different than it was written and don't really care about how it actually works.
I thank everyone who responded, but I think I need to clear some things up again. I am very much aware that multiattack and extra attack do not stack. I am also aware that natural armor and unarmored defense do not stack. Also I know how tough works I simply recommend it because my base form already has a high con and hp so I could push that further to survive longer. And lastly please be civil and do not argue over well established facts, there is no reason to fight it’s just a game at the end of the day.
Now that’s out of the way, time for a quick status update. My party is now 7th level and we have had a combat with Starhd and miraculously came out on top sending him packing back to Castle Ravenloft with bruised ego to regenerate. I am now a Barbarian 3/Druid 4, and I have decided to follow the advice given and not go to Barb 5. Instead I will cap Barbarian off at 4 to take the ASI/Feat earlier as 12 level Druid doesn’t offer much else. I am still debating on whether I finish off my Barbarian levels first or whether I bum rush straight to level 6 Druid, for better wildshape and magical attacks, and then take the Barb 4. I’m leaning more towards the latter since I just took an ASI (to cap my Wis) and don’t have a feat chosen just yet.
I would appreciate any further advice and I’ll end it off again with the feats I have in mind:
Mobile: for extra mobility on the field both in and out of wild shape.
Tough: For extra HP and survivability over all. (I know this only works for my base form and not wild shape)
War Caster: For better concentration checks (although I’ve been doing pretty good on those so far) and the ability to cast spells as AoO’s
Mage Slayer: which again would have helped versus Strahd. But to shutdown spellcasters.
I still think increasing your CR (you only get to 2 at level 6) is probably the best thing you can do to improve your melee prowess as a moon druid. I'd rush to druid 6.
For the next time you get an ASI, I would suggest War Caster (or resilient constitution) before any other feats if you use the common tactic of casting a concentration spell and then using wild shape often. These are much less important if you rage and wild shape. Lucky might be a good choice because it could find use while raging or concentrating. Mage Slayer and mobile are also both good options that would help you out whether you are in caster or beast form.
For the next time you get an ASI, I would suggest War Caster (or resilient constitution) before any other feats if you use the common tactic of casting a concentration spell and then using wild shape often.
I’m already proficient in Con Saves, since I took first level in Barbarian, so resilient wouldn’t do much for me, but War Caster is still an option I’m considering as well as the other options mentioned. Would you think War Caster is less necessary with Con save proficiency, or is it still good option?
I actually did this exact thing in the same campaign planning to go bear druid tank using circle of the moon druid and bear totem barb. I went to lvl 4 barbarian since I wanted to get the feat from that because the dm is letting us use some homebrew feats and I found 1 that doubles the rage uses I have. Next I plan on seeing if I can get 1 that increases the number of wild shape uses I have or something similar. Using the self heals by expending a spell slot in wild shape, the damage resistance from rage, the damage resistance from unarmored defense, and the trick of laving wild shape after the beast gets low on hp just to jump back into it resetting the beast form hp to max I am crazy tough (do less damage then some of the other party members tho). Our party of 4 (myself, another druid that did not multi class, a rouge, and a sorcerer) has managed to kill mobs that we were not supposed to be able to kill and we have not had much trouble (no deaths so far but we managed to kill lady watcher, the 3 hags, the wolves, cleared the druids from the wizard of wines, cleared the druids from the blood tree area, plus other smaller fights and random encounters. I also use my silent speech (Ghostwise Halfling) to communicate with the rogue as they are scouting ahead in stealth or for similar situations which allows me to communicate to each party member letting them know important information as needed but something like Telepathic Bond would probably do the same.
Uh, pardon, there is a "hard rule" about Druids not being able to communicate in animal form?
And finally, my point of all this is that there are ways around a lot of this (that you are not open to) and again, the audience will be the judge. I see D&D opening up with more and more exceptions with only a few hold outs that actually make the decisions. In the end the audience (players) will dictate because they are the consumers who pay....
Have great day! :-)
By a "hard rule" he means a general ban against casting spells specifically. "you can't cast spells". The restriction against speaking is not a general ban. In fact, it's not even a restriction against speaking at all, it simply says that you are limited by the capability of the beast form. If there was a beast form that could speak, then you can speak. I would probably rule that you could communicate in a limited manner if you were to wild shape into a parrot (which I might allow despite there not being a parrot in the MM). You can absolutely communicate with body language in wild shape. If you take the form of an ape, I would allow rudimentary sign language. Hell, I might even let a spider make an attempt to Charlotte's Web a message, although it would take some time and a slight of hand (anus?) check.
In other words, you can go around the restrictions, but you can't go through them. When it comes to the restriction against casting spells, you could do something spell-like such as throw a fireball form a necklace of fireballs but only because that isn't technically casting a spell. It's using an object. The only way to break this restriction is with another rule that specifically says it allows you to cast spells, i.e. the Beast Spells feature at level 18.
I am currently playing Curse of Strahd with a bit of a difficulty increase and we are planning to go to level 15. The Monk I was playing unfortunately perished in a run in with a hoard of vampire spawn. We are now level 4 and I have just rolled a Barbarian 1/Moon Druid 3 character. The reason I distributed the levels like this was to start with 2 level spells, for moon beam when not wild shaped, because I can not damage werewolves while in wild shape until Druid level 6. I plan to eventually get to level 3 Barbarian to go Bear totem, for the resistances and was wonder how I should go about leveling up optimally. Should I go straight to level 3 Barbarian and take the rest Druid, Is there any merit to going to Barbarian 5 for extra attack, Should I stagger my level ups take one in Barbarian and then one druid and repeat?
*Please no spoilers for the module, this is my first time playing it, I just want some advice on leveling.
In case this helps in any way My character is a Variant Human with the Sentinel Feat and my stats after racial bonuses are 13/16/18/14/18/14 (I rolled really well on my stats)
i would personally say after getting level 3 on barbarian just go all on druid. instead of getting to lvl 5 on barbarian you can just wild shape into a beast that can multiattack. it also depends if you wanna play as a caster. (still this is just my personal opinion)
It's hard sometimes, because you don't want to lose out on that 2nd attack. True, as a Moon Druid, you will be using your beast forms. But after you are peeled like an onion of your two wild shapes - in the end (at your core) you are a barbarian. This is definitely a judgement call. Sooner or latter you will have to make the decision to delay higher Druid levels or let the 2nd attack in barbarian form go.
There is a lot here to consider, but for the most part, I wouldn't take more levels of barbarian than you need.
Quote:
"Speaking of delaying druid options, each level you take in barbarian pushes back the level that your wildshape gains increases in CR. Moon druids already run into the problem that wildshape is exceedingly powerful at character level 2, but steadily declines in power because the wildshape forms don't scale as fast as other martial PCs. At druid 3/barb 5, you're stuck at CR 1 beasts (some of which already have multiattack), and have pushed off CR 2 beasts by 2 more levels with not much to show for it (since multiattack and extra attack don't stack)."
One of things that bothers me is that you only get 2 wild shapes per short rest. I know, you can (usually) get short rests, but it still aggravates me. The other two issues are not being able to communicate or cast spells in animal form. I may have found a work around for those though.
1. Can't communicate in animal form. If you take a dip in warlock and go with the great old one patron, you will get awakened mind which will enable you to communicate with anyone at a range of 30 feet (if they know "any" language - some creatures have a language). There are also two races I know of that have this same limited telepathy: Ghost Wise Halfling & a very new race - Verdan. I see a trend with allowing the Druid and others to communicate telepathically. I think this will continue to open up other options.
2. Can't cast spells in animal form. If you take three levels in sorcerer, you get meta-magic. You will have a pool of 3 sorcerer points. This is enough to cast 1 twinned spell and one subtle spell - or three subtle spells. Subtle spell allows you to cast a spell that has no material components and bypass verbal and somatic parts. This (to me) means you could be in animal form and cast certain spells. The stronger spells on the Druid list do require material components, but there is a surprising number of really good ones with no material component. This should allow three spells cast in animal form. It may not be the intent of the meta-magic but I think it works RAW.
What do you think?
The spell casting rule for wildshape is a hard rule, as I understand. The restriction is simply "You can’t cast spells," and so gaining the ability to ignore V and S components doesn't fix that.
The druid part of the class features section of Sage Advice essentially says the same (asking about shifting into elemental creatures that can speak).
First off, I just wanna thank any who replied for the advice.
I am aware that multiattack and extra attack don’t stack, I was thinking of it more in the lines of this:
1.) A brown bear (and eventually polar bear) do 2d6 with their claws and only 1d8 with their bite, with extra attack I could do two claw attacks instead, increasing my damage output by a fair bit it think.
2.) With extra attack I would be able to attack twice with any creature, opening up a lot more viable combat options.
As for limited Wild Shapes/Rages, I’m not too worried about running out, because my dm is fairly good at giving us rest at appropriate times so far. If I do run out it’s not the end of the world, because I have my spells and cantrips to fall back on, plus my AC is pretty good in my base form at a 19, which allows me to be a somewhat decent tank at times.
And for leveling I was thinking of going Barbarian 4/Druid 11, my thought process here is that I can get my last 2 ASI’s closer together (one to max my Wis, and the other to either max my Con or take another feat, not sure just yet) and still get access to 6th level spells.
However I’m still torn on wether the extra attack is worth giving up a 6th level slot for, either one could increase my overall damage and usefulness. Also the unarmored movement from Barb 5 would allow me to move around the battle field more and getting advantageous positions for flanking and what not, as well as being able to reach wounded or downed allies to heal them. It would also save me from taking the Mobile for the same reason or potentially increasing my speed further with both unarmored movement and mobile.
Any further advice would be appreciated, especially on potential feats I should look into or if I should just max my con instead. So far I’ve had my eye on:
1.) Mobile: as mentioned before
2.) War Caster: for concentrating on spells, like Moon Beam, and being able to cast spells as AoO’s
3.) Tough: for extra hit points increasing my survivability
4.) Mage Slayer: to potentially shut down spell casters, I have already encountered a few situations where this would have been useful and I know that there are Druids, Hags, etc. in Barovia, as well as Strahd himself, who can cast spells. Although it sounds somewhat useful, I’m not sure if this is a good feat or not, because I never really hear it talked about much.
According to Sage Advice, Tough affects the druid's hit points, and doesn't extend to the wild shape forms.
Going from brown bear to polar bear is essentially like getting a +1 weapon for the bear. You gain the ability to do so at Druid 6, where your attacks are considered magical, and you get a +1 to hit and a +1 to each damage's attacks. Again, you're talking about putting THAT off for 2 levels (that is, 2/3 of what you need to gain to go up a tier in CR). You shouldn't compare a brown bear with extra attack to one without it, you should be comparing a brown bear with extra attack to a polar bear with magical claws - because that is the functional difference at most total character levels. You are foregoing a +1 to hit and +1 on each attack for +2.5 damage on one attack, that is, as long as you are fighting something without non-magical damage resistance.
Assuming a 50% hit rate for the brown bear using extra attack, you get 0.5*(7+4) + 0.5*(7+4) = 11 expected damage on your two attacks with claws. For the Polar bear using multiattack, you get 0.55*(4.5+5) + 0.55*(7+5) = 11.825 expected damage. Don't forget, if the enemy is resistant to non-magical weapons, that 11 goes down to 5.5 but the 11.825 stays where it is. I don't know if generally this is the case, but between the polar bear and the brown bear, going up a tier is better than using extra attack.
And remember, every time you push off a druid level, you are taking the weird Moon druid power level curve (OP at level 2, steadily tailing down with a slight boost at 10, then powerful again only at 20) and making it less effective for you.
Edit: I realized I left off the rage bonus damage, but that is the same at barb3 and barb5 and so doesn't affect the overall results.
Just poking around the beasts and elemental forms available to wild shape, I found very few places exist where a creature using extra attack of a lesser CR is comparable to options in the next tier using their built in attacks/multiattack. The one notable example is that a CR3 giant snapping turtle does 1.2 more expected damage (again estimating a 50% hit rate for it) than the CR5 elemental forms. But for that extra wild shape expenditure, you lose that 1.2 damage, but gain all the resistances, movement and special abilities, and ~50 HP.
The dire wolf does well compared to the polar bear if you consider its pack tactics and ignore the fact that as a barbarian, you have on demand advantage. For a moon druid/barbarian, pack tactics goes from an offensive ability to a defensive one (advantage on your attacks without giving up advantage against you).
Hi,
" The spell casting rule for wildshape is a hard rule, as I understand. The restriction is simply "You can’t cast spells," and so gaining the ability to ignore V and S components doesn't fix that."
The rules for disengage (no one being able to hit when you do this) was also a hard rule. But I see that sentinel bypasses this, as well as a certain oath of vengeance ability.
As far as extra attack not working, the PHB says that your abilities carry over. True, it would not work with multi-attack but if you found a creature to wild shape into that had one attack - that would be an option.
And, interestingly, if you were a barbarian/druid your unarmored defense should carry over to wild shape form. True you will probably not get a creature with both a dex and con bonus (con bonus is more often). But that would still give a few lifts in AC.
Most of this is wrong. The spellcasting rule is simple. You cannot cast spells. It is not due to anything other than that restriction, which is not lifted until 18th level for the druid. The sorcerer meta magic doesn't say that it bypasses this restriction so it doesn't.
I didn't say that extra attack doesn't work, I said it didn't work with multi-attack. Again, I did the math: Most of the time, using multi-attack at with a higher CR wildshape is better than using extra attack with a lower CR shape. Considering that you'll be at a lower CR than you could have been, you need to account for the decreased CR when you determine if extra attack is worth it. I showed that a polar bear using multi-attack is better than a brown bear using extra attack, even though you might not come to that conclusion intuitively.
You must choose between unarmored defense and the natural armor of the beast. You don't get to stack the dex and con mods on top of what the natural armor AC of the beast is listed as. You get one AC calculation, either the natural armor calculation or the unarmored defense calculation. As long as you are careful about that caveat, you may still see some improvements to AC.
Hi,
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, however....
"You must choose between unarmored defense and the natural armor of the beast. You don't get to stack the dex and con mods on top of what the natural armor AC of the beast is listed as. You get one AC calculation, either the natural armor calculation or the unarmored defense calculation. As long as you are careful about that caveat, you may still see some improvements to AC."
Right, exactly. And why would you not look at which animals which had high dx or con or both and choose unarmored? Besides, I see nothing to say you could not choose this when you wild shape.
"Most of this is wrong. The spell casting rule is simple. You cannot cast spells. It is not due to anything other than that restriction, which is not lifted until 18th level for the druid. The sorcerer meta magic doesn't say that it bypasses this restriction so it doesn't."
And what hard rule that says you can't communicate in animal form, and yet there are two races (perhaps three) that give telepathy and you could take warlock one level and take telepathy thru the great old one? This also is a hard rule, right?
"Most of the time, using multi-attack at with a higher CR wildshape is better than using extra attack with a lower CR shape."
Exactly, but as you said "most of the time". You error in that you assumed I meant under all circumstances. I very rarely talk about absolutes. And you didn't deal with the last issue I brought up that disengage (which is a hard rule) has many exceptions including Oath of Vengeance (1st level), sentinel, etc.
So, I don't think I was "mostly" wrong after all. :-)
Yes. When you reply to me quoting me and don't write what you mean or imply things that you haven't written or hide meanings behind use of vague language instead of absolutes or provide unrelated examples or don't mention the special circumstances that situations require, you will find that at least I will disagree with you. Anytime you, either by omission or direct statement, miss-characterize what I've said, I will disagree with you on principle.
For example, on the hard "no spellcasting in wildshape" rule: You provide examples of other exceptions that are unrelated and underdeveloped. You use the example of communication, but there is no hard rule on communication in wildshape: you are only limited by the form of the new beast. That means certainly anything that bypasses that new form's limitations will work, including racial features you retain. You point to disengage as a hard rule, but this rule actually helps prove my point. Specific features say that they cause disengage to fail to work. The only feature that says that it allows a druid in wildshape to cast is the feature Beast Spells that the druid gains at 18th level. Subtle Spell does not say that it gives a druid this ability, so it doesn't.
Uh, pardon, there is a "hard rule" about Druids not being able to communicate in animal form?
I'm sorry you can't have a gentleman's conversation and look at the facts - without casting your barbs and being hurt by someone challenging your supreme knowledge and goodness. You just seem so tightly wrapped. Yes, I used your words and my examples, please accept my apologies for being so rude. Only the audience will judge between our views, but they will at least know that I'm taking the higher ground. This is my last input on this discussion. Thank you for shutting down open and honest communication.
And finally, my point of all this is that there are ways around a lot of this (that you are not open to) and again, the audience will be the judge. I see D&D opening up with more and more exceptions with only a few hold outs that actually make the decisions. In the end the audience (players) will dictate because they are the consumers who pay....
Have great day! :-)
And my point in all of this is simply that you can do anything you like when you don't care about the rules, but if you want to abide by those rules, then what they say is king. The rules simply don't provide ways around some of their limitations. The only way around those types of rules is ignoring them. Whatever you are saying about D&D opening up and the audience deciding is malarkey when it comes to rules questions.
And yes, I wrote my last response in an annoyed tone. It is very clear from your responses that you don't really consider what else is written on a topic (either by me or in the rule books) before you write your responses and trying to convey anything in that situation is frustrating to me. If that means you are taking the higher ground by using vague friendly language and appeals to the audience to hide your rude responses, so be it.
I thought at first you simply didn't understand the rule and tried to explain. I have learned through your responses that you just want it to work in a way that is different than it was written and don't really care about how it actually works.
I thank everyone who responded, but I think I need to clear some things up again. I am very much aware that multiattack and extra attack do not stack. I am also aware that natural armor and unarmored defense do not stack. Also I know how tough works I simply recommend it because my base form already has a high con and hp so I could push that further to survive longer. And lastly please be civil and do not argue over well established facts, there is no reason to fight it’s just a game at the end of the day.
Now that’s out of the way, time for a quick status update. My party is now 7th level and we have had a combat with Starhd and miraculously came out on top sending him packing back to Castle Ravenloft with bruised ego to regenerate. I am now a Barbarian 3/Druid 4, and I have decided to follow the advice given and not go to Barb 5. Instead I will cap Barbarian off at 4 to take the ASI/Feat earlier as 12 level Druid doesn’t offer much else. I am still debating on whether I finish off my Barbarian levels first or whether I bum rush straight to level 6 Druid, for better wildshape and magical attacks, and then take the Barb 4. I’m leaning more towards the latter since I just took an ASI (to cap my Wis) and don’t have a feat chosen just yet.
I would appreciate any further advice and I’ll end it off again with the feats I have in mind:
Mobile: for extra mobility on the field both in and out of wild shape.
Tough: For extra HP and survivability over all. (I know this only works for my base form and not wild shape)
War Caster: For better concentration checks (although I’ve been doing pretty good on those so far) and the ability to cast spells as AoO’s
Mage Slayer: which again would have helped versus Strahd. But to shutdown spellcasters.
I still think increasing your CR (you only get to 2 at level 6) is probably the best thing you can do to improve your melee prowess as a moon druid. I'd rush to druid 6.
For the next time you get an ASI, I would suggest War Caster (or resilient constitution) before any other feats if you use the common tactic of casting a concentration spell and then using wild shape often. These are much less important if you rage and wild shape. Lucky might be a good choice because it could find use while raging or concentrating. Mage Slayer and mobile are also both good options that would help you out whether you are in caster or beast form.
I’m already proficient in Con Saves, since I took first level in Barbarian, so resilient wouldn’t do much for me, but War Caster is still an option I’m considering as well as the other options mentioned. Would you think War Caster is less necessary with Con save proficiency, or is it still good option?
I actually did this exact thing in the same campaign planning to go bear druid tank using circle of the moon druid and bear totem barb. I went to lvl 4 barbarian since I wanted to get the feat from that because the dm is letting us use some homebrew feats and I found 1 that doubles the rage uses I have. Next I plan on seeing if I can get 1 that increases the number of wild shape uses I have or something similar. Using the self heals by expending a spell slot in wild shape, the damage resistance from rage, the damage resistance from unarmored defense, and the trick of laving wild shape after the beast gets low on hp just to jump back into it resetting the beast form hp to max I am crazy tough (do less damage then some of the other party members tho). Our party of 4 (myself, another druid that did not multi class, a rouge, and a sorcerer) has managed to kill mobs that we were not supposed to be able to kill and we have not had much trouble (no deaths so far but we managed to kill lady watcher, the 3 hags, the wolves, cleared the druids from the wizard of wines, cleared the druids from the blood tree area, plus other smaller fights and random encounters. I also use my silent speech (Ghostwise Halfling) to communicate with the rogue as they are scouting ahead in stealth or for similar situations which allows me to communicate to each party member letting them know important information as needed but something like Telepathic Bond would probably do the same.
By a "hard rule" he means a general ban against casting spells specifically. "you can't cast spells". The restriction against speaking is not a general ban. In fact, it's not even a restriction against speaking at all, it simply says that you are limited by the capability of the beast form. If there was a beast form that could speak, then you can speak. I would probably rule that you could communicate in a limited manner if you were to wild shape into a parrot (which I might allow despite there not being a parrot in the MM). You can absolutely communicate with body language in wild shape. If you take the form of an ape, I would allow rudimentary sign language. Hell, I might even let a spider make an attempt to Charlotte's Web a message, although it would take some time and a slight of hand (anus?) check.
In other words, you can go around the restrictions, but you can't go through them. When it comes to the restriction against casting spells, you could do something spell-like such as throw a fireball form a necklace of fireballs but only because that isn't technically casting a spell. It's using an object. The only way to break this restriction is with another rule that specifically says it allows you to cast spells, i.e. the Beast Spells feature at level 18.