Yeah this is how it works But the Elephant would still have +2 on stealth (Dex (-1) + Prof(+3)) is still good at stealth than a normy elephant -1 and Even if you don't normally have a proficiency in a skill You gain proficiency when Turning into a creature that has it. but you don't gain Expertise .... You compare the creature expertise with your Proficiency + Stat and what ever is higher is the thing you would use.
That's why I wished Wizards would have added to the side what was the creature proficiency and how does their attack or ability break down to . they do that for any creature that has spell casting why not for everything then ? Instead of giving it a passing mention in the DMG. Because do you know if you are proficient in Athletics then the Escape DC for your animals forms would increase Alot ? because It says in the DMG it is 8+Srt(Athletics)
and it works the Same for the ShapeChange Spell You gain Legendary Resistance but not legendary action
in the other hand the spell true Polymorph let you gain the Legendary Actions but dont let you change anything. you use it as it is.
But here is a question that confuses me .... it says that you retain your stuff from your classes and racial stuff ..... Would Racial ,Class ASI as will ASI in feats count ?? not the score but the Bonus .... Because it something you gain from Leveling or your race . if the state change the base state but what about the ASI you Accumulate. Its a gray spot because in one hand it is a state in the other its something you gain from leveling or racial feat. for example can a Dragonborn druid (As shown in the picture :D) would add +2 str to their bear form? as Written I see the argument that you get to add the bonus TBH. But I understand that would make Druids more unruly than ever before. so I just used the states before that
I disagree.. some races have prof in a bite.. claws and tavern brawler feat you have access to under the new form ..op as it seems..but once you get away from rules as written, you really are going to be walking a fine line the rest of the campaign.... always having to keep in mind what you changed before.
This does not sound correct. Any supporting information or reference? I was under the impression you strictly just use the beast's stat block.
I *think* FullMetalBunny is also trying to refute your comments...but I'm not sure. FMB?
Yes, I am refuting his statement. Usually when I see filcat post on a rules question I mostly don't bother adding in 2 cents, but I did today.
I threw in a little annoyance I personally have with the rules, how many Beasts don't make any mechanical sense by the rules. I think the two got mixed up.
Refutation Clarification
My point is the rules say you use the highest Proficiency Bonus IF you share the Proficiency.
Because a Druid doesn't share any Natural Weapon Proficiency, you always use the Beast's block instead.
I think I'm agreeing with FMB but I'll just state.
In the Beasts statblock you will not find any attacks that are labeled as unarmed strikes/attacks. They are all marked as melee weapon attacks. This is true for all Natural weapons for any form you'll be able to take with wild shape. Thus your proficiency in Unarmed attacks does not help you. Furthermore they are all untyped melee weapon attacks so they don't fall under the perview of classes that have proficiency over entire groups of weapons such as simple or Martial.
All of the races that have a "Natural Weapon" mechanically use a racial ability to specifically alter unarmed attacks. So their ability to use it does not actually transfer over to anything that has a similar kind of "natural weapon" that would be in a beast forms stat block. This allows for that race (such as the tabaxi) to use their unarmed alteration for that attack with something like martial arts (for the first 3 levels) and for unarmed attacks in general in their natural form but nothing else.
The issue of adding proficiency to attacks is one of the ways that many people actually break the rules without realizing it. They hear the word proficiency and anything that uses that number they just change. But that's not actually how the ability is written. It does not speak in any way about gaining a bonus to "weapon proficiency". So by technicality if you want to follow the RAW that form will never be better at attacking no matter what level the druid gets to. To me if people want to add it at high level. I don't think it hurts much of anything. Might be a bit more problematic at low level. But it's not actually an kind of large benefit at high level. Even if that form is going to hit once or twice more. It's not necessarily going to survive long enough to really make that hit and higher level CR forms kind of have Higher proficiency bonus built into them. This is part of the reason that Circle of the Moon has such an expanded list of forms they can use. To make the forms directly combat viable for a lot longer period.
But here is a question that confuses me .... it says that you retain your stuff from your classes and racial stuff ..... Would Racial ,Class ASI as will ASI in feats count ?? not the score but the Bonus .... Because it something you gain from Leveling or your race . if the state change the base state but what about the ASI you Accumulate. Its a gray spot because in one hand it is a state in the other its something you gain from leveling or racial feat. for example can a Dragonborn druid (As shown in the picture :D) would add +2 str to their bear form? as Written I see the argument that you get to add the bonus TBH. But I understand that would make Druids more unruly than ever before. so I just used the states before that
Those stat adjustments are all to your natural form and natural stats. Shape changing supercedes all of those bonuses and what they apply to and takes affect instead. So Getting a stat increase (which is arguably tied to your natural physiology if it's in a physical stat) Would not take affect to your altered form. It's not really a grey area. A racial bonus such the Dragonborn's +2 to strength does not apply anymore because while changed the Dragonborn does not have access to the physiological musculature that gave him that natural advantage. the same with an Elf's dexterity bonus. They do not have access to the natural elven litheness that creates that situation. ASI's from leveling up are in effect stat bonuses based on either physical or mental training that has built up from and in between your adventures and they change your natural body. They hit that hard line of do not apply to your new body because it is physiologically different.
What you retain is certain skills and abilities that are not inherently tied to the physical state of your body unless there is another rule specifically prohibiting them. An inherent ability to cast a racial spell for example or the ability to drive yourself into a rage. The mental training to push yourself to make that extra set of strikes from Action Surge. The inherent savagery to take advantage of that critical hit that Half-Orcs get. Etc...
If it didn't work this way. there are some dragons out there that would have become the most devastatingly murderous bunnies ever in existance… Probably even outdoing the one in Monty Python.
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Yeah this is how it works
But the Elephant would still have +2 on stealth (Dex (-1) + Prof(+3)) is still good at stealth than a normy elephant -1
and Even if you don't normally have a proficiency in a skill You gain proficiency when Turning into a creature that has it.
but you don't gain Expertise .... You compare the creature expertise with your Proficiency + Stat and what ever is higher is the thing you would use.
That's why I wished Wizards would have added to the side what was the creature proficiency and how does their attack or ability break down to . they do that for any creature that has spell casting why not for everything then ?
Instead of giving it a passing mention in the DMG.
Because do you know if you are proficient in Athletics then the Escape DC for your animals forms would increase Alot ? because It says in the DMG it is 8+Srt(Athletics)
and it works the Same for the ShapeChange Spell
You gain Legendary Resistance but not legendary action
in the other hand the spell true Polymorph let you gain the Legendary Actions but dont let you change anything. you use it as it is.
But here is a question that confuses me .... it says that you retain your stuff from your classes and racial stuff ..... Would Racial ,Class ASI as will ASI in feats count ?? not the score but the Bonus .... Because it something you gain from Leveling or your race . if the state change the base state but what about the ASI you Accumulate.
Its a gray spot because in one hand it is a state in the other its something you gain from leveling or racial feat.
for example can a Dragonborn druid (As shown in the picture :D) would add +2 str to their bear form?
as Written I see the argument that you get to add the bonus TBH.
But I understand that would make Druids more unruly than ever before. so I just used the states before that
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
I disagree.. some races have prof in a bite.. claws and tavern brawler feat you have access to under the new form ..op as it seems..but once you get away from rules as written, you really are going to be walking a fine line the rest of the campaign.... always having to keep in mind what you changed before.
I think I'm agreeing with FMB but I'll just state.
In the Beasts statblock you will not find any attacks that are labeled as unarmed strikes/attacks. They are all marked as melee weapon attacks. This is true for all Natural weapons for any form you'll be able to take with wild shape. Thus your proficiency in Unarmed attacks does not help you. Furthermore they are all untyped melee weapon attacks so they don't fall under the perview of classes that have proficiency over entire groups of weapons such as simple or Martial.
All of the races that have a "Natural Weapon" mechanically use a racial ability to specifically alter unarmed attacks. So their ability to use it does not actually transfer over to anything that has a similar kind of "natural weapon" that would be in a beast forms stat block. This allows for that race (such as the tabaxi) to use their unarmed alteration for that attack with something like martial arts (for the first 3 levels) and for unarmed attacks in general in their natural form but nothing else.
The issue of adding proficiency to attacks is one of the ways that many people actually break the rules without realizing it. They hear the word proficiency and anything that uses that number they just change. But that's not actually how the ability is written. It does not speak in any way about gaining a bonus to "weapon proficiency". So by technicality if you want to follow the RAW that form will never be better at attacking no matter what level the druid gets to. To me if people want to add it at high level. I don't think it hurts much of anything. Might be a bit more problematic at low level. But it's not actually an kind of large benefit at high level. Even if that form is going to hit once or twice more. It's not necessarily going to survive long enough to really make that hit and higher level CR forms kind of have Higher proficiency bonus built into them. This is part of the reason that Circle of the Moon has such an expanded list of forms they can use. To make the forms directly combat viable for a lot longer period.
Those stat adjustments are all to your natural form and natural stats. Shape changing supercedes all of those bonuses and what they apply to and takes affect instead. So Getting a stat increase (which is arguably tied to your natural physiology if it's in a physical stat) Would not take affect to your altered form. It's not really a grey area. A racial bonus such the Dragonborn's +2 to strength does not apply anymore because while changed the Dragonborn does not have access to the physiological musculature that gave him that natural advantage. the same with an Elf's dexterity bonus. They do not have access to the natural elven litheness that creates that situation. ASI's from leveling up are in effect stat bonuses based on either physical or mental training that has built up from and in between your adventures and they change your natural body. They hit that hard line of do not apply to your new body because it is physiologically different.
What you retain is certain skills and abilities that are not inherently tied to the physical state of your body unless there is another rule specifically prohibiting them. An inherent ability to cast a racial spell for example or the ability to drive yourself into a rage. The mental training to push yourself to make that extra set of strikes from Action Surge. The inherent savagery to take advantage of that critical hit that Half-Orcs get. Etc...
If it didn't work this way. there are some dragons out there that would have become the most devastatingly murderous bunnies ever in existance… Probably even outdoing the one in Monty Python.