With Circle of the Land, a druid becomes basically as powerful as a cleric. With Dreams and Shepherd you become even less powerful, but you are still strong don't get me wrong. The thing to consider is that whilst things may look amazing on paper, the power totally depends on the DM. Any druid without Moon essentially loses out on the only thing really OP about druids; the ability to use your Wildshape to essentially get infinite hp. The highest hp animals non-Moon druids are changing into would be Giant eagles, Dire Wolves, Brown Bears etc. And whilst at level 20 you can endlessly be any of these, so long as you don't get killed in the form and have no uses left, and cast your spells in that form, many other classes have powerful abilities at 20th level. And even at lower levels many other classes can beat druid. A mono-classed druid can't Counterspell, and compared to wizards have limited versatility. Whilst druids can change their spells known on a long rest, so can clerics, and clerics have many other versatile abilities.
So in conclusion, imo druids are not OP. They are good, but not game-breaking or in need of a nerf.
CursedDungBeetle, you're likely looking at Moon Druid from the perspective of a level 1 to 4 or level 20 game perspective. The power of a Moon Druid falls off a lot once other players hit level 5. The low AC of most wildshape forms means that they lose the wildshape after a round or two of being pummelled. While they have a lot of potential concentration spells, being near the frontline means that using them is risky unless the Druid gets backup from other casters. Being able to wildshape into an Elemental is nice for a few rounds, but it also makes you a big target and expends both wildshape slots until a short rest. That level 11 Fighter? Gets a minimum of 3 attacks per round, likely using a special magic weapon and probably sporting a clear AC of 20 to 22 without having to concentrate on anything. Moon Druids can be potent, but not by themselves after level 4 and until they hit level 18, when they get to cast spells in wildshape.
Moon druids can be very strong at the early of the game on their own, but I think people are sleeping a little on how good they can be later on because of teamwork. In more of a white room scenario yes, they on their own isn't as impressive but what about with that fighter song mentioned? That fighter song mentioned gains a lot of benefit from the druid if they decide to team up with the mounted combat feat, since the druid can provide some impressive mobility and extra damage going into the fray with the enemy. Moon druid also isn't exactly limited to their wildshape shenanigans and still have the entire druid list's worth of utility and various concentration spells. Many of the conjure spells druids have access to are easily some of the strongest in combat spells even ignoring the damage aspect. Don't forget pass without trace also meaning that even a fullplate fighter has a halfway chance of making some stealth checks, let along combining that with someone who is also good at stealth. +20 stealth modifier is practical with a single level dip into rogue which becomes even more amazing when you think of using wildshape in conjunction with it. Durability wise you can sometimes outdo barbarians, ignoring the fact that you can also just multiclass INTO being a barbarian druid mix. Druids are basically the wizards of this edition IMO but are able to multiclass better, and Moon Druid is a solid archetype but not the only good one.
I wouldn't call them weak just because of how good druids are by default, but those inbetween levels you just go back to being good rather than amazing. Wildshape still has impressive use for utility in exploration and the possibility of acting as a powerful mount for people is great. It also gives you more to do in combat since, and this is a bit anecdotal, druids don't have as much they need to personally do in combat other than throw up a concentration spell or two.
Moon druids are useful for large ranges than what many are listing in this thread. While their power does drop off somewhat they aren't as bad as they are made out to be here. And this is somebody that is a bit critical of the Circle of the Moon and the praise that it gets.
Druids however are not OP. While they are strong and they can do a lot when focused by the player towards certain things over others. They do have their weaknesses as well and the strength of their capstone is a bit over stated because of rules grey areas that people like to abuse endlessly. And the fact that there is cheese to use against those max level druids that can take them out quite easily if you know them and have access to them as well.
For all the roles that they can do to some extent druids are actually fairly balanced. Just when they are seemingly a bit stronger or weaker in a campaign depends on what Circle they belong to and what level range they are within since different ones shine at different points. But it's possible for many classes to shine and do extremely well despite endless rhetoric about one kind of character is over powered or too strong and another kind of character is way too weak or supposed to be useless for one reason or another. The truth is that most of that is basically bunk and more about mass perception than the reality of those classes, the situations they find themselves in, and the style of play that the players can put into them.
your forgetting that druids can concentrate on spells while in elemental shape, meaning a level 11 moon druid can cast investiture of wind, then transform into an earth elemental and go underground. then pop up and use the spell effect to deal 2d10 aoe dmg and pop back underground every round for 10 minutes for an average of 500-1000 dmg total with no way for nearly anything in the game to attack it because its underground on everyone elses turns
your forgetting that druids can concentrate on spells while in elemental shape, meaning a level 11 moon druid can cast investiture of wind, then transform into an earth elemental and go underground. then pop up and use the spell effect to deal 2d10 aoe dmg and pop back underground every round for 10 minutes for an average of 500-1000 dmg total with no way for nearly anything in the game to attack it because its underground on everyone elses turns
They can do it earlier than that if they pick a creature with burrow.
Also a "ready" action exists so an enemy could simply wait to fire off a shot until they appeared.
I don’t feel like we’re OP, strong if played right, but not OP. I don’t think truly much is OP at all this edition. Balance seems to be rather well. This is coming from a happy little mountain Druid :)
I am playing a Moon Druid and While they are not OP, they are VERY good, especially when they get to turn into an Elemental and their spells are also quite good.
With Circle of the Land, a druid becomes basically as powerful as a cleric. With Dreams and Shepherd you become even less powerful, but you are still strong don't get me wrong. The thing to consider is that whilst things may look amazing on paper, the power totally depends on the DM. Any druid without Moon essentially loses out on the only thing really OP about druids; the ability to use your Wildshape to essentially get infinite hp. The highest hp animals non-Moon druids are changing into would be Giant eagles, Dire Wolves, Brown Bears etc. And whilst at level 20 you can endlessly be any of these, so long as you don't get killed in the form and have no uses left, and cast your spells in that form, many other classes have powerful abilities at 20th level. And even at lower levels many other classes can beat druid. A mono-classed druid can't Counterspell, and compared to wizards have limited versatility. Whilst druids can change their spells known on a long rest, so can clerics, and clerics have many other versatile abilities.
So in conclusion, imo druids are not OP. They are good, but not game-breaking or in need of a nerf.
But once you get the OP 20th level, you only get one more level to use it.
With Circle of the Land, a druid becomes basically as powerful as a cleric. With Dreams and Shepherd you become even less powerful, but you are still strong don't get me wrong. The thing to consider is that whilst things may look amazing on paper, the power totally depends on the DM. Any druid without Moon essentially loses out on the only thing really OP about druids; the ability to use your Wildshape to essentially get infinite hp. The highest hp animals non-Moon druids are changing into would be Giant eagles, Dire Wolves, Brown Bears etc. And whilst at level 20 you can endlessly be any of these, so long as you don't get killed in the form and have no uses left, and cast your spells in that form, many other classes have powerful abilities at 20th level. And even at lower levels many other classes can beat druid. A mono-classed druid can't Counterspell, and compared to wizards have limited versatility. Whilst druids can change their spells known on a long rest, so can clerics, and clerics have many other versatile abilities.
So in conclusion, imo druids are not OP. They are good, but not game-breaking or in need of a nerf.
But once you get the OP 20th level, you only get one more level to use it.
Shape changing is not the most OP thing about Druids and even what the Moon Druids get is nothing amazing when it comes to shape changing even though it's a jump up from what other druids get strictly for confrontation purposes. Druids actually have a suite of very strong spells to use that can make them powerful in a lot of caster styles. And Counterspell is actually a very flawed spell with a lot of ways to get around it if dealt with even half way smartly. It doesn't make Wizards some all powerful superior caster.
your forgetting that druids can concentrate on spells while in elemental shape, meaning a level 11 moon druid can cast investiture of wind, then transform into an earth elemental and go underground. then pop up and use the spell effect to deal 2d10 aoe dmg and pop back underground every round for 10 minutes for an average of 500-1000 dmg total with no way for nearly anything in the game to attack it because its underground on everyone elses turns
oh, wow, 2d10 damage at level 11... Stop the presses. BTW enemies holding attacks could hit the elemental when it comes up. And there are many other ways that strategies like this could be easily countered.
Cursed, You know you can unsubscribe from threads?
People are still discussing what they think about the topic. No, druids are not OP. They get some great combos, but so do many classes.
I really enjoy summoning over wildshape: you can summon many of the same types of creatures that you can wildshape into, and you are still free to act as a caster.
I do think that Moon Druids are basically unkillable by 99% of the creatures in 5e at level 20.
They can just re-up wild shape infinitely and get oodles of THP back every turn so its incredibly hard to kill them.
I do not think that is crazy OP but they are definately one of the strongest entries at level 20. A wizard can still kill them fairly quickly/effectively at that level but they are the top dogs at level 20.
At early levels Moon Druid is very very powerful as they get a boat load of THP and powerful attacks. There they are probably the closest to being OP in general is in tier 1 play.
Cursed, You know you can unsubscribe from threads?
People are still discussing what they think about the topic. No, druids are not OP. They get some great combos, but so do many classes.
I really enjoy summoning over wildshape: you can summon many of the same types of creatures that you can wildshape into, and you are still free to act as a caster.
I think druids are op in 5e, especially moon druids, tell me your thoughts.
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With Circle of the Land, a druid becomes basically as powerful as a cleric. With Dreams and Shepherd you become even less powerful, but you are still strong don't get me wrong. The thing to consider is that whilst things may look amazing on paper, the power totally depends on the DM. Any druid without Moon essentially loses out on the only thing really OP about druids; the ability to use your Wildshape to essentially get infinite hp. The highest hp animals non-Moon druids are changing into would be Giant eagles, Dire Wolves, Brown Bears etc. And whilst at level 20 you can endlessly be any of these, so long as you don't get killed in the form and have no uses left, and cast your spells in that form, many other classes have powerful abilities at 20th level. And even at lower levels many other classes can beat druid. A mono-classed druid can't Counterspell, and compared to wizards have limited versatility. Whilst druids can change their spells known on a long rest, so can clerics, and clerics have many other versatile abilities.
So in conclusion, imo druids are not OP. They are good, but not game-breaking or in need of a nerf.
CursedDungBeetle, you're likely looking at Moon Druid from the perspective of a level 1 to 4 or level 20 game perspective. The power of a Moon Druid falls off a lot once other players hit level 5. The low AC of most wildshape forms means that they lose the wildshape after a round or two of being pummelled. While they have a lot of potential concentration spells, being near the frontline means that using them is risky unless the Druid gets backup from other casters. Being able to wildshape into an Elemental is nice for a few rounds, but it also makes you a big target and expends both wildshape slots until a short rest. That level 11 Fighter? Gets a minimum of 3 attacks per round, likely using a special magic weapon and probably sporting a clear AC of 20 to 22 without having to concentrate on anything. Moon Druids can be potent, but not by themselves after level 4 and until they hit level 18, when they get to cast spells in wildshape.
Moon druids can be very strong at the early of the game on their own, but I think people are sleeping a little on how good they can be later on because of teamwork. In more of a white room scenario yes, they on their own isn't as impressive but what about with that fighter song mentioned? That fighter song mentioned gains a lot of benefit from the druid if they decide to team up with the mounted combat feat, since the druid can provide some impressive mobility and extra damage going into the fray with the enemy. Moon druid also isn't exactly limited to their wildshape shenanigans and still have the entire druid list's worth of utility and various concentration spells. Many of the conjure spells druids have access to are easily some of the strongest in combat spells even ignoring the damage aspect. Don't forget pass without trace also meaning that even a fullplate fighter has a halfway chance of making some stealth checks, let along combining that with someone who is also good at stealth. +20 stealth modifier is practical with a single level dip into rogue which becomes even more amazing when you think of using wildshape in conjunction with it. Durability wise you can sometimes outdo barbarians, ignoring the fact that you can also just multiclass INTO being a barbarian druid mix. Druids are basically the wizards of this edition IMO but are able to multiclass better, and Moon Druid is a solid archetype but not the only good one.
Moon Druids are OP at levels 2-4 and level 10-11 (when they get elemental). All other levels they are reasonably powered or weak.
I wouldn't call them weak just because of how good druids are by default, but those inbetween levels you just go back to being good rather than amazing. Wildshape still has impressive use for utility in exploration and the possibility of acting as a powerful mount for people is great. It also gives you more to do in combat since, and this is a bit anecdotal, druids don't have as much they need to personally do in combat other than throw up a concentration spell or two.
Moon druids are useful for large ranges than what many are listing in this thread. While their power does drop off somewhat they aren't as bad as they are made out to be here. And this is somebody that is a bit critical of the Circle of the Moon and the praise that it gets.
Druids however are not OP. While they are strong and they can do a lot when focused by the player towards certain things over others. They do have their weaknesses as well and the strength of their capstone is a bit over stated because of rules grey areas that people like to abuse endlessly. And the fact that there is cheese to use against those max level druids that can take them out quite easily if you know them and have access to them as well.
For all the roles that they can do to some extent druids are actually fairly balanced. Just when they are seemingly a bit stronger or weaker in a campaign depends on what Circle they belong to and what level range they are within since different ones shine at different points. But it's possible for many classes to shine and do extremely well despite endless rhetoric about one kind of character is over powered or too strong and another kind of character is way too weak or supposed to be useless for one reason or another. The truth is that most of that is basically bunk and more about mass perception than the reality of those classes, the situations they find themselves in, and the style of play that the players can put into them.
your forgetting that druids can concentrate on spells while in elemental shape, meaning a level 11 moon druid can cast investiture of wind, then transform into an earth elemental and go underground. then pop up and use the spell effect to deal 2d10 aoe dmg and pop back underground every round for 10 minutes for an average of 500-1000 dmg total with no way for nearly anything in the game to attack it because its underground on everyone elses turns
They can do it earlier than that if they pick a creature with burrow.
Also a "ready" action exists so an enemy could simply wait to fire off a shot until they appeared.
I don’t feel like we’re OP, strong if played right, but not OP. I don’t think truly much is OP at all this edition. Balance seems to be rather well. This is coming from a happy little mountain Druid :)
I am playing a Moon Druid and While they are not OP, they are VERY good, especially when they get to turn into an Elemental and their spells are also quite good.
It would be best if we stopped posting to this thread, as at that point in time I had a bad grip on what OP was. I know have changed my opinion. :)
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But once you get the OP 20th level, you only get one more level to use it.
Yea, OP is kinda circumstantial
.
Shape changing is not the most OP thing about Druids and even what the Moon Druids get is nothing amazing when it comes to shape changing even though it's a jump up from what other druids get strictly for confrontation purposes. Druids actually have a suite of very strong spells to use that can make them powerful in a lot of caster styles. And Counterspell is actually a very flawed spell with a lot of ways to get around it if dealt with even half way smartly. It doesn't make Wizards some all powerful superior caster.
oh, wow, 2d10 damage at level 11... Stop the presses. BTW enemies holding attacks could hit the elemental when it comes up. And there are many other ways that strategies like this could be easily countered.
Cursed, You know you can unsubscribe from threads?
People are still discussing what they think about the topic. No, druids are not OP. They get some great combos, but so do many classes.
I really enjoy summoning over wildshape: you can summon many of the same types of creatures that you can wildshape into, and you are still free to act as a caster.
I do think that Moon Druids are basically unkillable by 99% of the creatures in 5e at level 20.
They can just re-up wild shape infinitely and get oodles of THP back every turn so its incredibly hard to kill them.
I do not think that is crazy OP but they are definately one of the strongest entries at level 20. A wizard can still kill them fairly quickly/effectively at that level but they are the top dogs at level 20.
At early levels Moon Druid is very very powerful as they get a boat load of THP and powerful attacks. There they are probably the closest to being OP in general is in tier 1 play.
Well, i'll leave you to that. Sorry about this.
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pretty much all druids are at level 20, because infinite wildshape.
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!