I know Moon Druids are considered strong early and late while Shepherd Druids can be powerful in the middle levels but I am looking to tip my toes into Druid as a Circle of the Land Druid.
What have you actually experienced playing one of those? Long campaign play first hand observation also considered valid. White Room swanning without actual observation or experience in play will be treated with several tablespoons of salt.
So, I really like the land druid and have a good bit of experience playing different versions. I think the three best are arctic, mountain, and coast.
Arctic is the best overall (considering all 4 tiers of spells) with a fantastic mix of great non-druid spells (slow, cone of cold) and great druid spells that you'll appreciate having always prepared. I started out playing arctic, but it was a lot of play at levels 1-8 which doesn't get you access to the big blaster spell (CoC). Lately I've been favoring Mountain a bit more because despite slow being a great spell, lightning bolt complements the druid spell list much better.
Mountain is all about getting access to lightning bolt. The other spells are pretty good, but having that 8d6 damage to blast with is a game-changer if you want to play your druid as a blaster. Just this afternoon I was in a group that went up against a young white dragon. I cast cast earthbind on him (lucky fail). Then I melded into stone so he couldn't break my concentration. After the party had engaged him a bit (and baited the breath weapon), I came out and blasted him twice with lightning bolt, doing about half his HP in lightning damage (31+35).
Coast is all about the first tier. After that it isn't that good, but mirror image and misty step are both amazing to have. Of the three, this is the one i'm least experienced at. Casting spike growth on yourself when surrounded by enemies then misty stepping away next turn is pretty cool. I'm playing a pirate druid, and it's very fun to RP.
Now, one thing that I think really helps the land druid is to go variant human and take the spell sniper feat. Normally it would be hard to justify fit this into a build at the cost of an ASI. War caster is great, and you could argue it is better overall. But spell sniper is really good and is IMO a lot more fun. Unfortunately druids don't have a lot of ranged spell attacks (thorn whip, produce flame, and ice knife are the only 3 options), so the benefits apply narrowly. But having 60 ft range on thorn whip and produce flame makes things so much better. You can sand back from the front lines and spread out to avoid AOE much more easily. 30 feet for your ranged spell attack cantrips is just woefully inadequate IMO. Also, ice knife is a really fun spell that goes from being decent range to very long range (60-120). Unfortunately it doesn't scale well for higher level casting.
Thorn whip tricks are what makes a caster druid effective. We have a lot of area spell effects that do damage when enemies enter the area, so being able to pull them into it maximizes the effectiveness from your concentration spells. You can do things like thorn whip enemies into spike grown from across the area (40 ft diameter, so impossible without spell sniper). You can pull enemies off of towers that are 40-50 feet above you (and ignore any cover they get from the wall).
Spell Sniper also gives you an extra cantrip, which druids are starved for IMO. As a land druid with spell sniper, you can get all 3 essential attack cantrips (produce flame, primal savagery, and thorn whip) plus two utility cantrips by level four. Most other druid builds only have 3 cantrips until level 10, so they have to made difficult choices and tradeoffs.
Primal savagery does 57% more damage than thorn whip, so when you're in melee you want to have this available.
Produce flame does 29% more damage than thorn whip, so when you're at range you want to have this. Also it's handy in a pinch as a mini-torch or when you need to burn something.
Thorn whip is a must-have for doing tricks.
The last little trick that I will point out is just something that I read recently. Druidcraft is often times pretty useless. But it can be tangentially useful by prompting your DM to roll to see what the weather is the next day. GM's in my experience don't typically bother to worry about the weather, so you almost never get to take advantage of the extra d10 for call lightning. By using druidcraft, you might nudge your DM into deciding to make it story, and you will know to prep call lightning ahead of time. So typically I will now take druidcraft as one of my utility spells.
I like Grassland, it gives you access to Invisibility, Haste, and always have prepared for free Pass without trace and freedom of movement. That plus wild shape to turn into a cat or spider and you become a very good scout or spy.
I also like Swamp for acid arrow and stinking cloud. Acid arrow is a spell that does damage even if you miss. and stinking cloud is a good area control spell that at level 10 you are immune to.
My suggestion is just look at the spell list and find what spell(s) that you don't have access to that you'd like to get. Having some of these spells always available is nice, but the real draw here should be new spells. Here are my thoughts and the spells you get from outside your list:
Artic - Good spells here. Level 3 and a Level 5 spell and they're both useful.
Slow - Pretty solid control spell.
Cone of Cold - Damage spell with Huge area of effect.
Coast - Not crazy about this. You get two level 2 spells that are both defensive.
Mirror Image - good defensive spell that doesn't require concentration.
Misty Step - Bonus action escape spell.
Desert - 2 level 2 spells and a level 3. This gets 3 but I don't think they're great spells.
Blur - Mediocre defensive spell that requires concentration.
Silence - Good spell to take vs casters.
Create food and Water - Not bad for a survival game. It's generally useless at most tables though.
Forest - This is.. meh. Two non-combat spells. Spider climb isn't that useful for you but divination can be useful.
Spider climb - why not just turn into a spider? I guess its good to cast on other people. Anyone that would need help climbing something would likely have this spell anyway.
Divination - Not a bad way to get information.
Grassland - 4 spells?! And they're actually pretty good ones.
Invisibility - Again this isn't something useful to cast on yourself because you can just turn into a spider and no one will notice. It can be useful to cast on someone else though.
Haste - Good combat buff spell.
Divination - Still not a bad way to get information.
Dream - This is potentially a fun spell for out of combat.
Mountain - My personal favorite because I love the idea of a lightningy druid. I like passwall.
Spider Climb - Still of marginal use to you.
Lightning bolt - I can't believe this wasn't a druid spell anyway. Great damage spell.
Passwall - Good way to get around obstacles out of combat.
Swamp
Darkness - This spell definitely has its uses, especially if you can find a way to get truesight or blindsight.
Acid Arrow - Second level damage and you don't have many of those. Not great, but it's not bad, especially if you get that second rounds worth of damage.
Stinking Cloud - What do they think swamps are like?! Good control spell.
Underdark - This one gets... 6 new spells?! Is that right? It's worth taking just for that!
Spider climb - here it is again... Still not good.
Web - pretty good control spell. It would be neat if you could turn into a giant spider after you cast this but alas... you're not a moon druid. Or maybe if you could cast this and spider climb but alas they're both concentration.
Gaseous Form - Situationally useful outside combat.
Stinking Cloud - Still a good control spell.
Greater invisibility - Great spell to cast on anyone in or out of combat.
Cloudkill - Very good damage spell. Can deal a lot of damage if you can keep targets in the area.
I've never actually looked that deep into it before. I think there are some winners and losers.
The losers first!
Coast - You don't need defensive spells that bad.
Desert - It's ok. Silence saves it a little. It's actually pretty good in a survival campaign.
Forest - No reason to take this. Spider climb is pretty much not good for you and if you really want divination, go Grassland and get a bunch of good spells.
Swamp - the only reason you'd take this is if you really wanted Acid Arrow. Darkness is too situational unless you get a way to see through it and you can get Stinking cloud from Underdark which I like a lot better.
Honerable mentions.
Grassland - 4 good spells.
Artic - only 2 new spells but they're good ones.
The Winners!
Underdark - so many good new spells!
Mountain - Lightning Bolt!
That's my opinion though. You might want to look harder at the other spells on the lists. Maybe you really want to always have access to barkskin?
I would value underdark a bit less than you do here, although it is a solid option (and a Duregar druid is a cool concept). Web is a great spell, but we already have entangle. Web is in some ways superior for sure, but they are so close that I think it somewhat diminishes the value of it. Plus there is the Wand of Web which is an uncommon rarity magic item.
Cloudkill is significantly worse than Insect Plague, which all druids get.
Almost identical damage. Cloudkill is 5d8 (22.5) while Insect plague is 4d10(22).
Identical area of effect
Insect plague has 300 ft range compared to cloudkill's 120 ft.
Insect plague does magical piercing damage which is far less likely to suffer from resistances or immunity than poison damage.
Insect plague can be cast in the air, is stationary, and creates difficult terrain. This allows you to do things like create choke points, grapple enemies and hold them in the area, etc.. Cloudkill falls to the ground, moves away from you, obscures enemies in the cloud (sometimes good, sometimes bad), and can be dispersed by strong winds.
Insect plague scales better (1d10 vs 1d8)
I have a similar issue with greater invisibility that I do with haste. It's not that they aren't very powerful abilities, but in-combat you end up using your concentration just to superpower your fighter/barbarian/etc (assuming you want to get the most out of it). To me, that just isn't as fun for this class. I play a land druid because I want to smite things with the power of nature. Sometimes I like to play support classes and that would be a fun part of it, but not for a land druid IMO.
P.S. Spider climb isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be IMO.
you can attack/cast non-concentration spells while using spider climb . Sometimes this allows you to completely cheese encounters.
You retain your ability to talk and manipulate objects (tie a rope off for example) while spider climb.
You can cast spider climb on another creature. Ever needed to scale a cliff with a horse and cart? Give your horse spider walk (might need animal handling check to get it to go up, lol. But that's what you have speak with animals for).
At higher levels, wild shaping into a spider and climbing can be dangerous if you get hit. You're much more likely to maintain concentration on spider climb than maintain your form with a 26 hp giant spider form.
Because it's so situational, I probably wouldn't pick it as a prepared spell, but part of the beauty/fun of the extra list of always prepared spells is that when you DO end up in that situation, you have it. Of course this can also be done with a ring of spell storing, but those can be hard to come by.
- Primal Savagery - if I have to melee - Produce Flame - when I don't want to waste a spell slot - Resistance - to buff one of my party members - Ice Knife - even if it doesn't hit the shard explodes and everyone in range has to make a DEX save or take Cold damage - Moonbeam - one of my fav spells - Guardian of Nature - my absolute fav spell, the Great Tree version is perfect for a Land Druid ♥
Out of fights:
- Wildshape - I use it mostly for scouting, my most used wildshapes so far are: Cat, Dog and Poisonous Snake, can't wait for the next level up, so I can turn into a Raven - Shape Water - I use this spell for a lot of stuff, like making ice keys (DM approved), making icy ground etc (made our ragey Barbarian slip xD) - Detect magic - Misty Step - used it to get behind a closed glass door to open it for the party - Pass Without a Trace - for sneaking, as we don't have a rogue - Dispel Magic
I would value underdark a bit less than you do here, although it is a solid option (and a Duregar druid is a cool concept). Web is a great spell, but we already have entangle. Web is in some ways superior for sure, but they are so close that I think it somewhat diminishes the value of it. Plus there is the Wand of Web which is an uncommon rarity magic item.
Cloudkill is significantly worse than Insect Plague, which all druids get.
Almost identical damage. Cloudkill is 5d8 (22.5) while Insect plague is 4d10(22).
Identical area of effect
Insect plague has 300 ft range compared to cloudkill's 120 ft.
Insect plague does magical piercing damage which is far less likely to suffer from resistances or immunity than poison damage.
Insect plague can be cast in the air, is stationary, and creates difficult terrain. This allows you to do things like create choke points, grapple enemies and hold them in the area, etc.. Cloudkill falls to the ground, moves away from you, obscures enemies in the cloud (sometimes good, sometimes bad), and can be dispersed by strong winds.
Insect plague scales better (1d10 vs 1d8)
I have a similar issue with greater invisibility that I do with haste. It's not that they aren't very powerful abilities, but in-combat you end up using your concentration just to superpower your fighter/barbarian/etc (assuming you want to get the most out of it). To me, that just isn't as fun for this class. I play a land druid because I want to smite things with the power of nature. Sometimes I like to play support classes and that would be a fun part of it, but not for a land druid IMO.
P.S. Spider climb isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be IMO.
you can attack/cast non-concentration spells while using spider climb . Sometimes this allows you to completely cheese encounters.
You retain your ability to talk and manipulate objects (tie a rope off for example) while spider climb.
You can cast spider climb on another creature. Ever needed to scale a cliff with a horse and cart? Give your horse spider walk (might need animal handling check to get it to go up, lol. But that's what you have speak with animals for).
At higher levels, wild shaping into a spider and climbing can be dangerous if you get hit. You're much more likely to maintain concentration on spider climb than maintain your form with a 26 hp giant spider form.
Because it's so situational, I probably wouldn't pick it as a prepared spell, but part of the beauty/fun of the extra list of always prepared spells is that when you DO end up in that situation, you have it. Of course this can also be done with a ring of spell storing, but those can be hard to come by.
I mostly agree with everything you said here. I think Cloudkill and insect plague are close enough in power that if you could prepare one for free chances are you'd use that over the other. I also don't like spider climb as a combat spell because if you take damage and lose concentration, all the sudden you're taking fall damage too. Useful if you're fighting enemies with no ranged attacks I suppose. Never thought about casting it on a horse though! That's hilarious.
I know Moon Druids are considered strong early and late while Shepherd Druids can be powerful in the middle levels but I am looking to tip my toes into Druid as a Circle of the Land Druid.
What have you actually experienced playing one of those? Long campaign play first hand observation also considered valid. White Room swanning without actual observation or experience in play will be treated with several tablespoons of salt.
Thanks in advance.
Marked with the sign of the Z!
So, I really like the land druid and have a good bit of experience playing different versions. I think the three best are arctic, mountain, and coast.
Now, one thing that I think really helps the land druid is to go variant human and take the spell sniper feat. Normally it would be hard to justify fit this into a build at the cost of an ASI. War caster is great, and you could argue it is better overall. But spell sniper is really good and is IMO a lot more fun. Unfortunately druids don't have a lot of ranged spell attacks (thorn whip, produce flame, and ice knife are the only 3 options), so the benefits apply narrowly. But having 60 ft range on thorn whip and produce flame makes things so much better. You can sand back from the front lines and spread out to avoid AOE much more easily. 30 feet for your ranged spell attack cantrips is just woefully inadequate IMO. Also, ice knife is a really fun spell that goes from being decent range to very long range (60-120). Unfortunately it doesn't scale well for higher level casting.
Thorn whip tricks are what makes a caster druid effective. We have a lot of area spell effects that do damage when enemies enter the area, so being able to pull them into it maximizes the effectiveness from your concentration spells. You can do things like thorn whip enemies into spike grown from across the area (40 ft diameter, so impossible without spell sniper). You can pull enemies off of towers that are 40-50 feet above you (and ignore any cover they get from the wall).
Spell Sniper also gives you an extra cantrip, which druids are starved for IMO. As a land druid with spell sniper, you can get all 3 essential attack cantrips (produce flame, primal savagery, and thorn whip) plus two utility cantrips by level four. Most other druid builds only have 3 cantrips until level 10, so they have to made difficult choices and tradeoffs.
The last little trick that I will point out is just something that I read recently. Druidcraft is often times pretty useless. But it can be tangentially useful by prompting your DM to roll to see what the weather is the next day. GM's in my experience don't typically bother to worry about the weather, so you almost never get to take advantage of the extra d10 for call lightning. By using druidcraft, you might nudge your DM into deciding to make it story, and you will know to prep call lightning ahead of time. So typically I will now take druidcraft as one of my utility spells.
I like Grassland, it gives you access to Invisibility, Haste, and always have prepared for free Pass without trace and freedom of movement. That plus wild shape to turn into a cat or spider and you become a very good scout or spy.
I also like Swamp for acid arrow and stinking cloud. Acid arrow is a spell that does damage even if you miss. and stinking cloud is a good area control spell that at level 10 you are immune to.
My suggestion is just look at the spell list and find what spell(s) that you don't have access to that you'd like to get. Having some of these spells always available is nice, but the real draw here should be new spells. Here are my thoughts and the spells you get from outside your list:
I've never actually looked that deep into it before. I think there are some winners and losers.
That's my opinion though. You might want to look harder at the other spells on the lists. Maybe you really want to always have access to barkskin?
I almost said the same thing about invisibility.
I would value underdark a bit less than you do here, although it is a solid option (and a Duregar druid is a cool concept). Web is a great spell, but we already have entangle. Web is in some ways superior for sure, but they are so close that I think it somewhat diminishes the value of it. Plus there is the Wand of Web which is an uncommon rarity magic item.
Cloudkill is significantly worse than Insect Plague, which all druids get.
I have a similar issue with greater invisibility that I do with haste. It's not that they aren't very powerful abilities, but in-combat you end up using your concentration just to superpower your fighter/barbarian/etc (assuming you want to get the most out of it). To me, that just isn't as fun for this class. I play a land druid because I want to smite things with the power of nature. Sometimes I like to play support classes and that would be a fun part of it, but not for a land druid IMO.
P.S. Spider climb isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be IMO.
Because it's so situational, I probably wouldn't pick it as a prepared spell, but part of the beauty/fun of the extra list of always prepared spells is that when you DO end up in that situation, you have it. Of course this can also be done with a ring of spell storing, but those can be hard to come by.
I'm currently playing a Lvl 7 Land Druid (Coast) and love it. https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Gilli/characters/6294975
In fights I mostly use:
- Primal Savagery - if I have to melee
- Produce Flame - when I don't want to waste a spell slot
- Resistance - to buff one of my party members
- Ice Knife - even if it doesn't hit the shard explodes and everyone in range has to make a DEX save or take Cold damage
- Moonbeam - one of my fav spells
- Guardian of Nature - my absolute fav spell, the Great Tree version is perfect for a Land Druid ♥
Out of fights:
- Wildshape - I use it mostly for scouting, my most used wildshapes so far are: Cat, Dog and Poisonous Snake, can't wait for the next level up, so I can turn into a Raven
- Shape Water - I use this spell for a lot of stuff, like making ice keys (DM approved), making icy ground etc (made our ragey Barbarian slip xD)
- Detect magic
- Misty Step - used it to get behind a closed glass door to open it for the party
- Pass Without a Trace - for sneaking, as we don't have a rogue
- Dispel Magic
I mostly agree with everything you said here. I think Cloudkill and insect plague are close enough in power that if you could prepare one for free chances are you'd use that over the other. I also don't like spider climb as a combat spell because if you take damage and lose concentration, all the sudden you're taking fall damage too. Useful if you're fighting enemies with no ranged attacks I suppose. Never thought about casting it on a horse though! That's hilarious.
I think spores is a good choice, but it matters on how you use it
Gracias to all who helped with thoughts on Land Druids.
Marked with the sign of the Z!