It would be a roll for me. It does say it is a tattoo and tattoos don't transfer into wildshape unless the creature you transfer into has the same tattoo- But Lyxen does have a fair point that equipment can merge or be worn, so I would roll a percentage dice for it. I haven't gotten Tasha's yet, but that sounds pretty dope
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My interpretation has been (since UA) that theres nothing stopping an animal from being tattooed so there's nothing stopping you from "wearing" it still when you shift to keep the effect. It could be argued that moon druids in elemental forms don't have defined enough bodies to be tattooed, but especially since earth elemental form could be an exception to that I'd probably not bother trying to special case the interaction.
From a flavor stand point I'd probably have them show up as colorful fur markings or someting rather than keeping them literal tattoos while wild shaped but thats just cosmetics not a balance change.
If my players had given an arguments as strong as these, I would allow it, but otherwise it's a roll for me.
On the elemental tattoos, I think that it doesn't necessarily have to be a solid tattoo. In a water elemental, this tattoo could be a discoloration in part of the water, and for fire elementals, it could be a smoky aura that creates a certain shape. Maybe for air elementals, the tattoo can be pulsing lightning on one of the creature's 'shoulders' that has the same effect. Of course, earth elementals have it easy, but a tattoo magic item is pretty damn cool roleplay wise. Imagine all the other tattoos you can get and what they do (I don't have Tasha's yet, so there's probably more).
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It's a magical item, actually, not a real tattoo. So you can choose to wear it: "You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it." So for me yes, it can be used while Wild Shaped.
Where do you get that it's not a real tattoo? It begins as a magic item, but when you attune to it, the needles turns into ink. It's no longer equipment. It's literally ink in your skin.
Whether you can use it during wild shape is subject to DM interpretation. I think it's pretty clear that any animal with skin would work. But with insects that have exoskeletons or elementals, that's a bit trickier. I'd probably allow it and just say the ink appears as a pattern or swirls in the form of the elemental if it's aire/fire/water.
Im going to pull this from the exact text from tasha's
"A magic tattoo can look like a brand, scarification, a birthmark, patterns of scale, or any other cosmetic alteration."
So i would say that it could be a distinct pattern that shows up in any form, i would just rule that it is always the same pattern. So someone might see your tattoo in person and in the future see a giant spider with similar markings on its chitin, as a wolf it would be a similar fur discoloration. As air/water/fire elemental it could be a particular and distinct pattern of whirls in your form, maybe the tattoo is present but appears as a glowing rune in your immaterial form.
Side point, I dont think it's actually a bad idea to allow for a different reason. If your AC is always the same, no matter your form, it's a ton less information to keep track of. Less to keep track of means fewer errors. I think it's a cool idea.
It's a magical item, actually, not a real tattoo. So you can choose to wear it: "You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it." So for me yes, it can be used while Wild Shaped.
Where do you get that it's not a real tattoo? It begins as a magic item, but when you attune to it, the needles turns into ink. It's no longer equipment. It's literally ink in your skin.
No. literally no, it's a magic tattoo, most of them need to be attuned, and it gives you magic powers. So no, it's not "just ink in your skin", unless you mean "magic ink that behaves as a magic item". Because, for example, it you end the attunement, the ink disappears and becomes a needle again...
Yes it is magic, but again, it is literally a tattoo. "When the attunement is complete, the needle turns into the ink that becomes the tattoo, which appears on the skin." You quoted the part of wild shape where it says you can choose whether equipment merges with your or falls to the ground, but an attuned magic tattoo is not equipment. It is no longer a physical item, so there is nothing to merge with your form or drop to the ground.. It is literally a tattoo in your skin. Yes, the ink is magical, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a tattoo at this point.
Okay lets back up. It seemed like you were implying that the magic tattoos are equipment that should be treated the same as magical armor, weapons, trinkets, etc and that when you wild shape you choose what happens to it.
I am saying that this is incorrect. After you attune to the needle, it becomes a cosmetic alteration of your body, commonly in the form of a literal tattoo (i.e. ink under the skin) although it can take other forms.
2) Yes the "magic tattoo" is a magic item, but after you attune to it it is no longer a physical "item", i.e. it is no longer equipment that can be worn, dropped to the ground, etc. It's now a part of your body.
3) It's not that there is some kind of exception to the rules of Wild Shape for the magic tattoo, it's just that you're treating that tattoo as something that it is not (equipment). They would behave more like a magic potion that you might have drunk than something like a +1 weapon. Really, how would choosing to drop a tattoo, birthmark, or scale pattern work? It wouldn't.
The more relevant rule for magical tattoos would be this part of wild shape:
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
Like I said, the best parallel is a magical potion. You drink it, it becomes part of you for the duration. Same with the tattoo once you attune to it. You aren't "wearing" the tattoo, it's a part of your body.
If you were to consider the tattoo as worn equipment, then the options are
1) it falls to the ground. Not sure how you see that playing out unless you're saying it would de-attune and turn back into the needle.
2) It merges with your body and ceases to function. So no tattoo while shapeshifted.
3) It stays "worn" in which case it cannot change it's size or shape. So imagine you're a goliath or loxodon with a legendary tattoo that covers your torso and arms. You shift into a tiny spider. How are you going to make the tattoo work without changing its size or shape? The liquid ink of the tattoo would probably have 2x or more the volume as the body of the spider. This rule is clearly talking about physical items like armor and weapons. Things that aren't a part of your body.
A magical tattoo is more akin to the Hand or Eye of Vecna than a potion. It's a part of your body and yet at the same time it isn't. It has it's own qualities and it works with your body. Fighting over exactly when it can work is a pointless argument of semantics that under the majority of circumstances isn't really covered by the rules.
As such it's probably best to treat it as somewhere between the two because in reality that is what it actually is. And under many circumstances it is not going to be the greatest improvement in ac even if you do allow them to use it while shape changed. After the first few levels beast forms are notoriously mediocre to low ac to begin with so letting them have a few more points of AC shouldn't greatly offset things for most parties. Specially since barbarian or monk's alternate AC features can transfer over to shape changed forms already anyway.
Honestly if I was in the position of DM I'd be far more worried of Absorbing Tattoo's keyed to psychic damage falling in the hands of a number of Totem barbarians than I would over the small AC gained by a shape changing Druid wearing the Barrier Tattoo since that is actually seriously curbing one of the few weaknesses that they have. I have actually tailored a bit more psychic damage into my campaigns in the past just to keep them a little mindful in the past without having to go overboard on the rest of the party.
I see no reason it wouldn't work. Indeed, its quite common stories for identifying marks like tattoos or scars to carry over to different forms on shapeshifters.
From an armor calculation stand point, you'd treat it like someone putting a mage armor spell on a barbarian or monk. Take the highest value, ignore the lesser. A bear with the Very Rare tattoo would have AC 18.
If you allow a Barrier Tattoo to work while Wild Shape is active (which it is unclear at this time if it can be used this way), it is important to remember that it is not cumulative with Natural Armor. The new form would have a base AC of 10 + Dex modifier just like everyone else before Armor values are applied. If the Wild Shape form has a Dex mod of 0 and an AC of 13 due to Natural Armor, then we know the base effectiveness of that Natural Armor. The Barrier Tattoo may be less useful than the Natural Armor. If it’s the Uncommon version, it gives AC 12, so you’d want the Natural Armor instead. If it’s the Rare version, it would give an AC of 15 with a max Dex mod of +2, which isn’t being used since the form’s Dex mod is 0, making the tattoo better than the firm’s Natural Armor. At best, you’d end up with AC 17, which isn’t really all that game breaking. I can easily generate a Level 1 character with that AC score.
If we assume that keeping it active must also meet the size requirements of other physical items with regards to Wild Shape, we can generally assume that you’d need to take the form of a Small or larger creature to keep it active. Shifting into a Tiny creature, such as a raven, would necessitate having it meld with the form. That said, the tattoo descriptions really only gives us an area of the body covered and it could be seen as exceedingly pedantic (and worse, extremely un-fun) to argue that the volume of ink doesn’t change and limits the forms it can be active on rather than keeping with the relative scale of area covered, which would still be the same for a Tiny creature as it would for a Huge creature.
Realistically speaking, the Barrier Tattoo doesn’t provide such extreme protection that there is any “game breaking” implications of simply allowing it to remain active regardless of the size of the form taken by Wild Shape. The most important part is that it does not stack with Natural Armor and likely provides only slightly greater protection, if any at all as determined by the quality level. Just make sure you also enforce the Dex mod limitations inherent to the tattoo and you’ll be fine. The game won’t break and the Druid player will have fun, which is the most important part. Remember, D&D is a collaborative storytelling activity and not a competition.
The very rare option gives a static AC:18, if used as a Brown Bear (AC:11) or Fire element (AC:13), it provides a pretty good boost! As OP my intention was to ask whether it would work with Wild Shape. Consensus is mixed, but my DM was said yes (woohoo) and I agree that it is reasonable to have a magic tattoo appear on a wild shaped druid.
The very rare option gives a static AC:18, if used as a Brown Bear (AC:11) or Fire element (AC:13), it provides a pretty good boost! As OP my intention was to ask whether it would work with Wild Shape. Consensus is mixed, but my DM was said yes (woohoo) and I agree that it is reasonable to have a magic tattoo appear on a wild shaped druid.
It seems huge in a theory crafting and pure number look scenario but it's not the most significant increase at level 8 when you can first do it and beyond. Particularly with no real abilities to increase it over that amount. And on the fire elemental it's even less and still doesn't deal with the real weakness of the fire elemental. It's water susceptibility. And the fire elemental form actually wants to be hit in some respects because it will deal damage back. Even if that damage isn't the greatest. It's still mostly free damage.
If I played a moon druid, I wouldn't really care about the Barrier Tattoo. There are better options.
[Uncommon] Eldritch Claw gives you +1 to hit and damage and has a once per day activated, bonus action ability that gives you 15 foot reach and 1d6 extra force damage for 1 minute
[Rare] Ghost Step tattoo gives you 3 bonus actions that give you physical resistance to non-magical damage and get you out of grapple/restrain for 1 round. You can also pass through solid objects. It's a pretty solid option.
[Legendary] Blood Fury Tattoo is amazing, obviously. You get 10 charges you can use to do a life drain attack (4d6 necrotic damage on hit) or make a reaction attack (with advantage) when you're hit.
Blood Fury is obv amazing, but Eldrich Claw wouldn't work. It's been confirmed before that wild shape attacks are not unarmed strikes [link], so no +1. The 15ft reach should work though because they are considered natural weapons.
Be aware that, if its not in the official Errata PDF, Jeremy Crawford tweets are no longer official rules, just suggestions, so you still have to ask your DM if they agree with that.
Blood Fury is obv amazing, but Eldrich Claw wouldn't work. It's been confirmed before that wild shape attacks are not unarmed strikes [link], so no +1. The 15ft reach should work though because they are considered natural weapons.
this may be what I was remembering when I mentioned in a thread that martial arts doesn't work when shape changed with the animal forms natural weapons.
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In Tasha's, there is a magic item Barrier Tattoo that provides a new AC calculation if you aren't wearing armour.
The monster manual says:
Because natural armour and wearing armour are different, this means if I allow the tattoo to stay, it can be used while Wild Shaped?
It would be a roll for me. It does say it is a tattoo and tattoos don't transfer into wildshape unless the creature you transfer into has the same tattoo- But Lyxen does have a fair point that equipment can merge or be worn, so I would roll a percentage dice for it. I haven't gotten Tasha's yet, but that sounds pretty dope
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My interpretation has been (since UA) that theres nothing stopping an animal from being tattooed so there's nothing stopping you from "wearing" it still when you shift to keep the effect. It could be argued that moon druids in elemental forms don't have defined enough bodies to be tattooed, but especially since earth elemental form could be an exception to that I'd probably not bother trying to special case the interaction.
From a flavor stand point I'd probably have them show up as colorful fur markings or someting rather than keeping them literal tattoos while wild shaped but thats just cosmetics not a balance change.
If my players had given an arguments as strong as these, I would allow it, but otherwise it's a roll for me.
On the elemental tattoos, I think that it doesn't necessarily have to be a solid tattoo. In a water elemental, this tattoo could be a discoloration in part of the water, and for fire elementals, it could be a smoky aura that creates a certain shape. Maybe for air elementals, the tattoo can be pulsing lightning on one of the creature's 'shoulders' that has the same effect. Of course, earth elementals have it easy, but a tattoo magic item is pretty damn cool roleplay wise. Imagine all the other tattoos you can get and what they do (I don't have Tasha's yet, so there's probably more).
I love roleplaying, message me so we can set something up.
I talk everything D&D, message me for questions, chat, arguements, or roleplay!
Where do you get that it's not a real tattoo? It begins as a magic item, but when you attune to it, the needles turns into ink. It's no longer equipment. It's literally ink in your skin.
Whether you can use it during wild shape is subject to DM interpretation. I think it's pretty clear that any animal with skin would work. But with insects that have exoskeletons or elementals, that's a bit trickier. I'd probably allow it and just say the ink appears as a pattern or swirls in the form of the elemental if it's aire/fire/water.
Im going to pull this from the exact text from tasha's
"A magic tattoo can look like a brand, scarification, a birthmark, patterns of scale, or any other cosmetic alteration."
So i would say that it could be a distinct pattern that shows up in any form, i would just rule that it is always the same pattern. So someone might see your tattoo in person and in the future see a giant spider with similar markings on its chitin, as a wolf it would be a similar fur discoloration. As air/water/fire elemental it could be a particular and distinct pattern of whirls in your form, maybe the tattoo is present but appears as a glowing rune in your immaterial form.
Side point, I dont think it's actually a bad idea to allow for a different reason. If your AC is always the same, no matter your form, it's a ton less information to keep track of. Less to keep track of means fewer errors. I think it's a cool idea.
Yes it is magic, but again, it is literally a tattoo. "When the attunement is complete, the needle turns into the ink that becomes the tattoo, which appears on the skin." You quoted the part of wild shape where it says you can choose whether equipment merges with your or falls to the ground, but an attuned magic tattoo is not equipment. It is no longer a physical item, so there is nothing to merge with your form or drop to the ground.. It is literally a tattoo in your skin. Yes, the ink is magical, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a tattoo at this point.
Okay lets back up. It seemed like you were implying that the magic tattoos are equipment that should be treated the same as magical armor, weapons, trinkets, etc and that when you wild shape you choose what happens to it.
I am saying that this is incorrect. After you attune to the needle, it becomes a cosmetic alteration of your body, commonly in the form of a literal tattoo (i.e. ink under the skin) although it can take other forms.
1) Never said they weren't subject to attunement.
2) Yes the "magic tattoo" is a magic item, but after you attune to it it is no longer a physical "item", i.e. it is no longer equipment that can be worn, dropped to the ground, etc. It's now a part of your body.
3) It's not that there is some kind of exception to the rules of Wild Shape for the magic tattoo, it's just that you're treating that tattoo as something that it is not (equipment). They would behave more like a magic potion that you might have drunk than something like a +1 weapon. Really, how would choosing to drop a tattoo, birthmark, or scale pattern work? It wouldn't.
The more relevant rule for magical tattoos would be this part of wild shape:
Like I said, the best parallel is a magical potion. You drink it, it becomes part of you for the duration. Same with the tattoo once you attune to it. You aren't "wearing" the tattoo, it's a part of your body.
If you were to consider the tattoo as worn equipment, then the options are
1) it falls to the ground. Not sure how you see that playing out unless you're saying it would de-attune and turn back into the needle.
2) It merges with your body and ceases to function. So no tattoo while shapeshifted.
3) It stays "worn" in which case it cannot change it's size or shape. So imagine you're a goliath or loxodon with a legendary tattoo that covers your torso and arms. You shift into a tiny spider. How are you going to make the tattoo work without changing its size or shape? The liquid ink of the tattoo would probably have 2x or more the volume as the body of the spider. This rule is clearly talking about physical items like armor and weapons. Things that aren't a part of your body.
A magical tattoo is more akin to the Hand or Eye of Vecna than a potion. It's a part of your body and yet at the same time it isn't. It has it's own qualities and it works with your body. Fighting over exactly when it can work is a pointless argument of semantics that under the majority of circumstances isn't really covered by the rules.
As such it's probably best to treat it as somewhere between the two because in reality that is what it actually is. And under many circumstances it is not going to be the greatest improvement in ac even if you do allow them to use it while shape changed. After the first few levels beast forms are notoriously mediocre to low ac to begin with so letting them have a few more points of AC shouldn't greatly offset things for most parties. Specially since barbarian or monk's alternate AC features can transfer over to shape changed forms already anyway.
Honestly if I was in the position of DM I'd be far more worried of Absorbing Tattoo's keyed to psychic damage falling in the hands of a number of Totem barbarians than I would over the small AC gained by a shape changing Druid wearing the Barrier Tattoo since that is actually seriously curbing one of the few weaknesses that they have. I have actually tailored a bit more psychic damage into my campaigns in the past just to keep them a little mindful in the past without having to go overboard on the rest of the party.
I see no reason it wouldn't work. Indeed, its quite common stories for identifying marks like tattoos or scars to carry over to different forms on shapeshifters.
From an armor calculation stand point, you'd treat it like someone putting a mage armor spell on a barbarian or monk. Take the highest value, ignore the lesser. A bear with the Very Rare tattoo would have AC 18.
If you allow a Barrier Tattoo to work while Wild Shape is active (which it is unclear at this time if it can be used this way), it is important to remember that it is not cumulative with Natural Armor. The new form would have a base AC of 10 + Dex modifier just like everyone else before Armor values are applied. If the Wild Shape form has a Dex mod of 0 and an AC of 13 due to Natural Armor, then we know the base effectiveness of that Natural Armor. The Barrier Tattoo may be less useful than the Natural Armor. If it’s the Uncommon version, it gives AC 12, so you’d want the Natural Armor instead. If it’s the Rare version, it would give an AC of 15 with a max Dex mod of +2, which isn’t being used since the form’s Dex mod is 0, making the tattoo better than the firm’s Natural Armor. At best, you’d end up with AC 17, which isn’t really all that game breaking. I can easily generate a Level 1 character with that AC score.
If we assume that keeping it active must also meet the size requirements of other physical items with regards to Wild Shape, we can generally assume that you’d need to take the form of a Small or larger creature to keep it active. Shifting into a Tiny creature, such as a raven, would necessitate having it meld with the form. That said, the tattoo descriptions really only gives us an area of the body covered and it could be seen as exceedingly pedantic (and worse, extremely un-fun) to argue that the volume of ink doesn’t change and limits the forms it can be active on rather than keeping with the relative scale of area covered, which would still be the same for a Tiny creature as it would for a Huge creature.
Realistically speaking, the Barrier Tattoo doesn’t provide such extreme protection that there is any “game breaking” implications of simply allowing it to remain active regardless of the size of the form taken by Wild Shape. The most important part is that it does not stack with Natural Armor and likely provides only slightly greater protection, if any at all as determined by the quality level. Just make sure you also enforce the Dex mod limitations inherent to the tattoo and you’ll be fine. The game won’t break and the Druid player will have fun, which is the most important part. Remember, D&D is a collaborative storytelling activity and not a competition.
The very rare option gives a static AC:18, if used as a Brown Bear (AC:11) or Fire element (AC:13), it provides a pretty good boost! As OP my intention was to ask whether it would work with Wild Shape. Consensus is mixed, but my DM was said yes (woohoo) and I agree that it is reasonable to have a magic tattoo appear on a wild shaped druid.
It seems huge in a theory crafting and pure number look scenario but it's not the most significant increase at level 8 when you can first do it and beyond. Particularly with no real abilities to increase it over that amount. And on the fire elemental it's even less and still doesn't deal with the real weakness of the fire elemental. It's water susceptibility. And the fire elemental form actually wants to be hit in some respects because it will deal damage back. Even if that damage isn't the greatest. It's still mostly free damage.
If I played a moon druid, I wouldn't really care about the Barrier Tattoo. There are better options.
Blood Fury is obv amazing, but Eldrich Claw wouldn't work. It's been confirmed before that wild shape attacks are not unarmed strikes [link], so no +1. The 15ft reach should work though because they are considered natural weapons.
oh, that's a bummer. I figured it was the same as insignia of claws (unarmed strikes and natural weapons).
Be aware that, if its not in the official Errata PDF, Jeremy Crawford tweets are no longer official rules, just suggestions, so you still have to ask your DM if they agree with that.
this may be what I was remembering when I mentioned in a thread that martial arts doesn't work when shape changed with the animal forms natural weapons.