Note that if your teammate goes down after the round that you cast moonbeam or call lightning, then you can still use the actions that they provide and cast healing word. Their actions are not casting spells. Or if you choose to cast a cure wounds, then you can use one of the many bonus actions that the other druid subclasses provide.
I'm confused by what you're trying to communicate here.
Well, maybe that is part of the problem.
Moonbeam and Call lightning both provide an action on subsequent turns. For example, moonbeam says "On each of your turns after you cast this spell, you can use an action to move the beam up to 60 feet in any direction." You are free to use this action and cast a bonus action spell, so you can still use both your action for something valuable and your bonus action, as long as you already have your moonbeam up.
Or, you could use your action on something like a cure wounds spell and your bonus action on something else. Nearly every other druid subclass provides options for bonus actions that aren't spells.
Again. Not interested in comparing to the power of other druid subclasses. Just interested in proving Dreams isn't nearly as bad as OP thinks. Dreams having a bonus action heal to throw into an action heavy routine is good action economy and makes them decent at least.
Ah, if you are talking about scaling as you level, Wis mod scales. If you are talking about scaling as you upcast, first upcasting healing word isn’t a good way to heal. Second, Xd4+wis is still likely to beat Xd6+XtempHP until third level slots with only a +4 wisdom mod. That gets worse once you get a +5 wis mod, and even worse again if there is some other (better) source of temp HP. (With another source temp HP and with a +5 Wis, you would get the same healing out of a 5th level healing word as your 5 balm dice.)
Really, if you are talking about upcasting, you shouldn’t still be comparing healing word to Balm, you should really be considering cure wounds to balm. Cure wounds always wins as long as you have a positive wisdom bonus.
The advantages that Balm is a bonus action and isn’t a spell have already been stated. Those are advantages not worth ignoring. But it doesn’t provide you enough healing to really make you into a healer, and it doesn’t help you do anything else as a druid except save some first level slots. This feature is strictly worse than lay on hands.
Your math is off. Healing word is barely holding even at second level (both caping out at 12 max for +4) upcasting and actually loses out at 3rd level. Even with a +5 mod since Healing words maximum potential is 17 while Healing Balm is 18. And if you have to drag in some extra secondary power to try and compare them at 5th level then it is clear that Healing word has failed because your now not only throwing higher level spell slots at the equation but other resources which may be additional spells slots as well. No spell slots always trumps 2 spell slots. specially higher level spell slots.
As for comparing to cure wounds. No you shouldn't be comparing the two. Because healing balm is functionally the same as healing word. Not cure Wounds. They use the same type of action. they are both ranged. they both heal. They both tick off all the same boxes so Healing Word is the most direct comparison. The literal only trade off distance is healing word has a little more guaranteed healing but Healing Balm does not require a spell slot to cast or even upcast.
Cure wounds is a companion healing spell that should be possessed in conjunction with healing word or Healing Balm and used as appropriate with different requirements for using it that come into play such as being an action and requiring the distance of touch. Your wanting to use Cure wounds as the comparison to make the ability look worse than it is but it doesn't fully equate. Cure Wounds is stronger because it's the one with more limitations as a trade off. And it's meant to partner and alternate as necessary with more ranged weaker heals.
"Note that if your teammate goes down after the round that you cast moonbeam or call lightning, then you can still use the actions that they provide and cast healing word."
The difference is that if you use a mundane action and cast Healing word, it still eats up your spell slots. With Balm, you can use that same action, heal someone for free, and save a spell slot. If you want to heal someone with your bonus action, then using Balm > Healing Word would be the more economical choice every time.
"I am completely of the opinion that healing (in combat or out) should be a last resort."
I mean that's fine. But still, even in these cases, Balm isn't useless because its essentially still (x) amount of free, non-spell slot consuming revives for your teammates.
"Sure you could combine them, but again only comparing them directly, the dreams feature falls short."
I'm sorry, but I still don't see how that's the case? Assuming you cast Healing word or Balm at 1st Level, and assuming you have a wisdom mod of +4, the max you could roll on Balm would be 7hp. The max you could roll on Healing Word is 8hp. With maxed Wisdom, the most it can heal for at a Level 1 casting is 9hp. HW wins only by a negligible 2 points at most just at 1st level, so its honestly roughly similar in value. But just looking at those numbers in a vacuum isn't the way to go. Balm still gives you a more versatile action economy compared to Healing Word, as well as double the range, and the ability to use it while wild-shaped (which is convenient for any Druid). That's not even including the value you get from potentially saving yourself spell slots, and being able to freely "upcast" Balm vs. Healing Word, with the latter giving you diminishing returns with higher level casts.
If the argument is that Balm is a bad feature strictly because healing in 5e sucks then that's a different story.
As for Natural Recovery, its a nice feature, but it's literally just a re-skinned Wizard default feature. There's nothing flavorful or unique about it at all.
Ah, if you are talking about scaling as you level, Wis mod scales. If you are talking about scaling as you upcast, first upcasting healing word isn’t a good way to heal. Second, Xd4+wis is still likely to beat Xd6+XtempHP until third level slots with only a +4 wisdom mod. That gets worse once you get a +5 wis mod, and even worse again if there is some other (better) source of temp HP. (With another source temp HP and with a +5 Wis, you would get the same healing out of a 5th level healing word as your 5 balm dice.)
Really, if you are talking about upcasting, you shouldn’t still be comparing healing word to Balm, you should really be considering cure wounds to balm. Cure wounds always wins as long as you have a positive wisdom bonus.
The advantages that Balm is a bonus action and isn’t a spell have already been stated. Those are advantages not worth ignoring. But it doesn’t provide you enough healing to really make you into a healer, and it doesn’t help you do anything else as a druid except save some first level slots. This feature is strictly worse than lay on hands.
Your math is off. Healing word is barely holding even at second level (both caping out at 12 max for +4) upcasting and actually loses out at 3rd level. Even with a +5 mod since Healing words maximum potential is 17 while Healing Balm is 18. And if you have to drag in some extra secondary power to try and compare them at 5th level then it is clear that Healing word has failed because your now not only throwing higher level spell slots at the equation but other resources which may be additional spells slots as well. No spell slots always trumps 2 spell slots. specially higher level spell slots.
As for comparing to cure wounds. No you shouldn't be comparing the two. Because healing balm is functionally the same as healing word. Not cure Wounds. They use the same type of action. they are both ranged. they both heal. They both tick off all the same boxes so Healing Word is the most direct comparison. The literal only trade off distance is healing word has a little more guaranteed healing but Healing Balm does not require a spell slot to cast or even upcast.
Cure wounds is a companion healing spell that should be possessed in conjunction with healing word or Healing Balm and used as appropriate with different requirements for using it that come into play such as being an action and requiring the distance of touch. Your wanting to use Cure wounds as the comparison to make the ability look worse than it is but it doesn't fully equate. Cure Wounds is stronger because it's the one with more limitations as a trade off. And it's meant to partner and alternate as necessary with more ranged weaker heals.
No. My math is fine. Balm doesn't win until 3rd level. Balm doesn't win until 6th level ignoring temp HP and with a 20 Wis. Balm never beats Cure wounds. That is all fine.
Yes, you should be comparing Balm to cure wounds when upcast because upcasting healing word is bad. Either you are healing to get a person up from unconscious or you are trying to replenish their hitpoints. If you are upcasting healing word to provide healing, you are doing it wrong.
This is all my opinion, and you are entitled to yours, even if I think they're bad. Healing is a last resort and mediocre healing as a resource is worse than the other non-spellslot resources druids could get at level 2.
"Note that if your teammate goes down after the round that you cast moonbeam or call lightning, then you can still use the actions that they provide and cast healing word."
The difference is that if you use a mundane action and cast Healing word, it still eats up your spell slots. With Balm, you can use that same action, heal someone for free, and save a spell slot. If you want to heal someone with your bonus action, then using Balm > Healing Word would be the more economical choice every time.
Wait. The balm dice aren't a resource?
"I am completely of the opinion that healing (in combat or out) should be a last resort."
I mean that's fine. But still, even in these cases, Balm isn't useless because its essentially still (x) amount of free, non-spell slot consuming revives for your teammates.
They don't cost Balm dice? Also, a level 1 spell give you 10 “free” revives for your teammates and my group members tend not to go down at a rate that I need my level's worth of revives in a day anyway.
"Sure you could combine them, but again only comparing them directly, the dreams feature falls short."
I'm sorry, but I still don't see how that's the case? Assuming you cast Healing word or Balm at 1st Level, ...
That quote wasn't talking about balm... It was comparing Hearth of moonlight and shadow to a spell...
I’m sorry, I don’t see your point here. I’ve said elsewhere, if you are trying to get people up, you can do it 10 times a day for a free first level slot (what does free even mean anymore?). If you are trying to provide HP, 1d6 per level isn’t all that much... unless the rest of your party is wizards or sorcerers.
If the argument is that Balm is a bad feature strictly because healing in 5e sucks then that's a different story.
That is partly it, and partly that the healing you get from it (while it has decent action economy and range) isn't good enough to make you good at healing.
As for Natural Recovery, its a nice feature, but it's literally just a re-skinned Wizard default feature. There's nothing flavorful or unique about it at all.
Yep, and 10 spell slots is better than 20d6+20 healing. 1 spell slot is better than 2d6+2 healing. It is better.
Land druid is like vanilla ice cream. Doesn't have the most unique flavor, but it's very good on it's own and sometimes you just feel like having it by itself.
I enjoy playing Land. Natural recovery is great because it lets you do more of the thing that is most impactful for a druid, i.e. casting high level spells. Many times it will literally double the number of spell slots for the highest level spell you can cast. At worst it gives you 33% more (until you get higher than lvl 5 spells).
Well, I just had a circle of dreams join my 8th level party last night (character change) so I guess I'll get some first hand experience with it. First impression wasn't great, but that was mostly because he mistakenly thought the familiar thing in tasha's replaced wild shape. We really needed him to fly someone out of danger (I got 1 away with dimension door) and when I suggested he turn into a giant eagle, he said he can't do it so he just did nothing.
A land druid gets a half a spell slot per level. That is way better than a d6+1 healing because it allows you to do anything that you'd normally be able to do, including prevent way more than 20d6+20 damage. You can't point to a level 2 feature that druids get and find a weaker one. Balm is an Ok feature, but not compared to the other level 2 druid features.
Your math is off, or at least it ignores the limitations and opportunity costs faced by land druids when casting spells. Land druids get half a slot extra per level that they can only access after using spell slots then taking a short rest. This means that land druids will over the course of an adventuring day have access to more high level slots and have more flexibility in what spells they use their slots on out of combat than dreams druids, presuming they have reason to use slots and access to rests. That's great and is a viable thing to build a character around, but dreams druids still come out on top when it comes to total access to "spell slots", "spells" per round, and "spell slots" per encounter. Land druids get half a spell slot extra per level but they have to use a full spell slot every time they cast healing word. Dreams druids get the functional equivalent of an extra full spell slot per level, they are simply limited to using that slot for one particular spell (that limitation would be more problematic if healing at a distance wasn't so darned useful). Even more importantly they can cast a leveled spell and heal at a distance every single round. Dreams druids are objectively better casters than land druids when viewed on a spells per round basis because they aren't limited to cantrips when healing. They are also objectively better on an access to "spell slots" per encounter basis because they get access to every one of their bonus "1st level slots" without having to use a short rest. In most fights that only last 2-4 rounds the differences between land and dreams druids won't matter but in the big boss fights dreams druids have significantly more stamina than land druids and won't be stuck using cantrips.
I will point out that if you’re not using your spell slots then, of course, having more will not matter. If you have one combat a day that lasts 2-4 rounds, there is no chance that you will run out of spell slots whether you have additional resources to heal with. If you have features that rely on short rests, you might be more inclined to take them. Additionally, a dreams druid can still only cast one non-cantrip spell per round. Those are all fairly obvious.
Additionally, a dreams druid can still only cast one non-cantrip spell per round.
Have you not been paying attention to all of the "spell slots" being thrown around in quotation marks, or discussion equating Balm to Healing Word? No one was ever saying the Dreams druid gets to cast more non-cantrips per round. The point is that the functionality of Balm means the Dreams druid gets access to two spell equivalent effects per round without invoking the bonus action casting rule.
If you have one combat a day that lasts 2-4 rounds, there is no chance that you will run out of spell slots whether you have additional resources to heal with.
NH23 never mentioned only having one combat a day.
This means that land druids will over the course of an adventuring day have access to more high level slots and have more flexibility in what spells they use their slots on out of combat than dreams druids, presuming they have reason to use slots and access to rests....
They are also objectively better on an access to "spell slots" per encounter basis because they get access to every one of their bonus "1st level slots" without having to use a short rest. In most fights that only last 2-4 rounds the differences between land and dreams druids won't matter but in the big boss fights dreams druids have significantly more stamina than land druids and won't be stuck using cantrips.
Pointing out it isn't a given to have access to a short rest has its merit when comparing the efficacy of Recovery and Balm. I've certainly been in sessions where the pace is so hectic and everything is so dangerous that we couldn't afford one.
Neither Dreams or Land is going to make use of their 2nd level ability in a session that doesn't require spell slots, so that is a wash and not really worth discussing.
Wolf, your response is just so far off base because of how much you've taken things out of context. NH23 did a good job explaining their thoughts. This should have all been fairly obvious.
You're making a big deal out of this, Zot. That isn't surprising considering our other interactions on these forums. You seem to have a different understanding of the game than I do.
If your side is indicating that a player can get the effect of a spell slot by using a class feature instead of a slot, that is certainly not limited to the Dreams subclass. A class feature isn't a spell, and plenty of PCs (including other druid subclasses) get class features that provide actions or bonus actions. That point is moot.
If you're indicating that you don't have access to rests, then, well, you've already given up access to the best healing source in the game. At that point, then who cares about how much healing you can do because you're already leaving so much on the table.
Certainly I didn't start the war of taking comments out of context. Healing isn't a feature that I'm excited about, and so a mediocre source of it is way less exciting than anything else you can get at level 2 from the druid class. That is all.
A land druid gets a half a spell slot per level. That is way better than a d6+1 healing because it allows you to do anything that you'd normally be able to do, including prevent way more than 20d6+20 damage. You can't point to a level 2 feature that druids get and find a weaker one. Balm is an Ok feature, but not compared to the other level 2 druid features.
but dreams druids still come out on top when it comes to total access to "spell slots", "spells" per round, and "spell slots" per encounter. Land druids get half a spell slot extra per level but they have to use a full spell slot every time they cast healing word. Dreams druids get the functional equivalent of an extra full spell slot per level, they are simply limited to using that slot for one particular spell (that limitation would be more problematic if healing at a distance wasn't so darned useful).Even more importantly they can cast a leveled spell and heal at a distance every single round. Dreams druids are objectively better casters than land druids when viewed on a spells per round basis because they aren't limited to cantrips when healing. They are also objectively better on an access to "spell slots" per encounter basis because they get access to every one of their bonus "1st level slots" without having to use a short rest. In most fights that only last 2-4 rounds the differences between land and dreams druids won't matter but in the big boss fights dreams druids have significantly more stamina than land druids and won't be stuck using cantrips.
A bonus action heal for a small amount is really important occasionally when you need it and not very useful otherwise. Sure, the dreams druid can do it more times than other druids, but other druids can generally do it as much as they need.
I think circle of dreams is bad from an optimization standpoint, but I think it's actually far worse from a "fun" or "design" standpoint. Being almost entirely dedicated to abusing the whole "any amount of healing brings you back from unconscious/dying" is not a good thing IMO.
You're making a big deal out of this, Zot. That isn't surprising considering our other interactions on these forums. You seem to have a different understanding of the game than I do.
Thinly veiled ad hominems. I like a little foreplay.
If your side is indicating that a player can get the effect of a spell slot by using a class feature instead of a slot, that is certainly not limited to the Dreams subclass. A class feature isn't a spell, and plenty of PCs (including other druid subclasses) get class features that provide actions or bonus actions. That point is moot.
I will once again point you to the title of this thread: "Circle of Dreams is one of the worst sublcasses in the game. Prove me wrong." This isn't about trying to prove the Dreams subclass is providing something unique to the game, or better than other options that provide actions and bonus actions. Or that it's even a strong subclass. Just that it's not one of the worst in the game. Discussing Balm's resource and action economy strengths is not a moot point. It's exactly the kind of point that works towards building a case for the subclass not being complete garbage.
Let me reiterate: I don't think Dreams is that good. I think it's solid but unexciting and certainly worse than most if not every other druid. But that does not make it one of the worst subclasses in the game. There are some real duds out there setting the bar pretty low and I think Dreams clears it at least decently well.
If you're indicating that you don't have access to rests, then, well, you've already given up access to the best healing source in the game. At that point, then who cares about how much healing you can do because you're already leaving so much on the table.
Your logic makes no sense. A session where the DM is trying to exhaust you of resources with a high pressure day, without a chance to short rest, is going to be when your party values an extra source of healing the most. What do you mean "who cares?" Everybody that doesn't want to die, that's who. Without those precious hit die to count on Balm is probably at its most valuable.
Certainly I didn't start the war of taking comments out of context. Healing isn't a feature that I'm excited about, and so a mediocre source of it is way less exciting than anything else you can get at level 2 from the druid class. That is all.
There was and never will be a war. It was just you, in one post, taking things out of context.
You are certainly entitled to like any druid subclass more than dreams. For concept reasons, mechanical reasons, whatever. That is a moot point. Because this isn't druid subclass competition day.
Zoltar99 I can certainly appreciate your feelings about the design aspect of Dreams, in general and regarding the healing. I personally don't really like the existence of Spare the Dying so being irked by easy access to that effect makes sense to me. I think in this case you're giving up much more because the opportunity cost of one cantrip is pittance compared to your choice of subclass. So Balm doesn't end up bothering me like Spare can. I am disappointed overall in how the abilities implement the flavor of the concept. It's quite bland.
Mechanically though, I don't think it belongs in the dumpster bin. It's fine. Just fine.
Ok Zot, we may not actually completely disagree. On the other hand, In 5e preventing damage is always better than healing. Every other druid (and most other subclasses) are better equipped to do that.
Your logic on "A session where the DM is trying to exhaust you of resources" doesn't make sense. You can't be exhausted of resources if you don't use them - and that was my point above. More detail can be provided, if you like.
Your logic on "A session where the DM is trying to exhaust you of resources" doesn't make sense. You can't be exhausted of resources if you don't use them - and that was my point above. More detail can be provided, if you like.
Okay, you seem to be stuck on something because you keep harping on this no use of spell slots thing despite me being quite clear in outlining how a DM can exhaust a party's resources, including spell slot and deny a short rest.
This means that land druids will over the course of an adventuring day have access to more high level slots and have more flexibility in what spells they use their slots on out of combat than dreams druids, presuming they have reason to use slots and access to rests.
Just because NH23 put them in the same sentence with an "and" doesn't mean that every session where you don't get to short rest is also a session that does not require spell slots. These are not some pair of mutual qualities that are always found together. There can absolutely be sessions that are demanding in terms of combat and push the party to their limit by not giving time to short rest.
And you seem to be stuck too. I'm glad you wanted clarification. I actually wasn't talking about spell slots in the section you quoted. My point is that short rests provide an opportunity for characters to use resources such as hit dice and Natural Recovery that cannot be used without short rests. If you have resources such as hit dice that you have not used, you are not resource starved.
A DM could choose to flat out deny resources any way they choose, in theory even by saying that they will not allow bonus actions to be used. A player's choice to deny the group of a particular resource is hard to judge when trying to compare the value of various resource types, but I think overall makes for a poor argument about the flat out usefulness of a resource. Maybe you won't take any short rests in a day; but on the same token, maybe your group won't take any damage on a given day.
Wait so me and couple others have been talking about the Dreams in terms of all of their virtual "spell slots" when it comes to resources and your response is to talk about every resource except spell slots? I'm genuinely confused. Do you not understand the points people have been making or do you intend on just talking past people?
If you have resources such as hit dice that you have not used, you are not resource starved.
Do you understand the premise of a DM running the party ragged with encounters without giving them time to short rest? Because your responses make it seem like you don't. It essentially negates the existence of hit die for healing. Sure, they're technically still there to use, but if the team never gets a chance to use them what's the difference? So yes, in this type of scenario, the party is absolutely resource starved as they struggle to keep up with the pace of encounters without hit dice healing and renewal of short rest abilities.
A DM could choose to flat out deny resources any way they choose, in theory even by saying that they will not allow bonus actions to be used.
So your argument is that being resource efficient doesn't matter because the DM can do whatever they want? And that the DM could decide to not let you have bonus actions so Balm would be unusable? Come on Wolf, that point is so thin I don't think it even counts as one. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Again.
A player's choice to deny the group of a particular resource is hard to judge when trying to compare the value of various resource types, but I think overall makes for a poor argument about the flat out usefulness of a resource.
You're objectively wrong. An abilility's capacity to function under times of duress, when shit is hitting the fan, is an excellent trait for an ability to have. That's when you need abilities to show up and deliver the most, so pointing out Balm can do that is a great case for its usefulness.
Maybe you won't take any short rests in a day; but on the same token, maybe your group won't take any damage on a given day.
Maybe your DMs don't like to make you sweat, but in my experience pressuring short (and long) rests is a common tactic to make things more challenging. Meanwhile the rarer RP heavy days where little to no combat happens? Well those are generally low pressure days, at least in terms of dying. It's the high pressure ones where you need all of your abilities to function at their highest level. So again, Balm is a solid ability with merit that helps prop up the Dreams druid. It has value, mostly tied in its nature as a bonus action. The fact that it functions well in a low resource session is icing on the cake, and nice icing at that. But it was never what Balm leaned on for the bulk of its value.
I don't know. Most of my time in this thread is defending my position to people who seem to get stuck on one idea at a time. It never seems to be the one that is the thesis: Healing is not good in 5e. Healing is never better than preventing damage. Every other druid subclass gives you something better than healing.
Yes, you might have a DM that takes away your ability to use your resources (that is what taking away short rests is), but even when that happens, it still wont' happen frequently enough to overcome how much better real spellslots are than Balm dice.
I will once again point you to the title of this thread: "Circle of Dreams is one of the worst sublcasses in the game. Prove me wrong."This isn't about trying to prove the Dreams subclass is providing something unique to the game, or better than other options that provide actions and bonus actions.
I don't know. Most of my time in this thread is defending my position to people who seem to get stuck on one idea at a time. It never seems to be the one that is the thesis: Healing is not good in 5e. Healing is never better than preventing damage. Every other druid subclass gives you something better than healing.
I guess I have the answer to my question. Keep on doing your ship passing in the night routine if it makes you happy.
No one is addressing your "thesis" because it's a complicated subject that deserves its own thread and is irrelevant to proving Dreams doesn't belong in the dumpster. You don't need to prove the subclass is anything special to do that. Just pointing out its a full caster with more spellslot-like resources is enough. How many times do I have to say I don't think Dreams is anything special and that proving it's an elite option in any way isn't part of my intended response to the thread?
Well, maybe that is part of the problem.
Moonbeam and Call lightning both provide an action on subsequent turns. For example, moonbeam says "On each of your turns after you cast this spell, you can use an action to move the beam up to 60 feet in any direction." You are free to use this action and cast a bonus action spell, so you can still use both your action for something valuable and your bonus action, as long as you already have your moonbeam up.
Or, you could use your action on something like a cure wounds spell and your bonus action on something else. Nearly every other druid subclass provides options for bonus actions that aren't spells.
And so does Dreams...
Again. Not interested in comparing to the power of other druid subclasses. Just interested in proving Dreams isn't nearly as bad as OP thinks. Dreams having a bonus action heal to throw into an action heavy routine is good action economy and makes them decent at least.
Your math is off. Healing word is barely holding even at second level (both caping out at 12 max for +4) upcasting and actually loses out at 3rd level. Even with a +5 mod since Healing words maximum potential is 17 while Healing Balm is 18. And if you have to drag in some extra secondary power to try and compare them at 5th level then it is clear that Healing word has failed because your now not only throwing higher level spell slots at the equation but other resources which may be additional spells slots as well. No spell slots always trumps 2 spell slots. specially higher level spell slots.
As for comparing to cure wounds. No you shouldn't be comparing the two. Because healing balm is functionally the same as healing word. Not cure Wounds. They use the same type of action. they are both ranged. they both heal. They both tick off all the same boxes so Healing Word is the most direct comparison. The literal only trade off distance is healing word has a little more guaranteed healing but Healing Balm does not require a spell slot to cast or even upcast.
Cure wounds is a companion healing spell that should be possessed in conjunction with healing word or Healing Balm and used as appropriate with different requirements for using it that come into play such as being an action and requiring the distance of touch. Your wanting to use Cure wounds as the comparison to make the ability look worse than it is but it doesn't fully equate. Cure Wounds is stronger because it's the one with more limitations as a trade off. And it's meant to partner and alternate as necessary with more ranged weaker heals.
The difference is that if you use a mundane action and cast Healing word, it still eats up your spell slots. With Balm, you can use that same action, heal someone for free, and save a spell slot. If you want to heal someone with your bonus action, then using Balm > Healing Word would be the more economical choice every time.
"I am completely of the opinion that healing (in combat or out) should be a last resort."
I mean that's fine. But still, even in these cases, Balm isn't useless because its essentially still (x) amount of free, non-spell slot consuming revives for your teammates.
"Sure you could combine them, but again only comparing them directly, the dreams feature falls short."
I'm sorry, but I still don't see how that's the case? Assuming you cast Healing word or Balm at 1st Level, and assuming you have a wisdom mod of +4, the max you could roll on Balm would be 7hp. The max you could roll on Healing Word is 8hp. With maxed Wisdom, the most it can heal for at a Level 1 casting is 9hp. HW wins only by a negligible 2 points at most just at 1st level, so its honestly roughly similar in value. But just looking at those numbers in a vacuum isn't the way to go. Balm still gives you a more versatile action economy compared to Healing Word, as well as double the range, and the ability to use it while wild-shaped (which is convenient for any Druid). That's not even including the value you get from potentially saving yourself spell slots, and being able to freely "upcast" Balm vs. Healing Word, with the latter giving you diminishing returns with higher level casts.
If the argument is that Balm is a bad feature strictly because healing in 5e sucks then that's a different story.
As for Natural Recovery, its a nice feature, but it's literally just a re-skinned Wizard default feature. There's nothing flavorful or unique about it at all.
No. My math is fine. Balm doesn't win until 3rd level. Balm doesn't win until 6th level ignoring temp HP and with a 20 Wis. Balm never beats Cure wounds. That is all fine.
Yes, you should be comparing Balm to cure wounds when upcast because upcasting healing word is bad. Either you are healing to get a person up from unconscious or you are trying to replenish their hitpoints. If you are upcasting healing word to provide healing, you are doing it wrong.
This is all my opinion, and you are entitled to yours, even if I think they're bad. Healing is a last resort and mediocre healing as a resource is worse than the other non-spellslot resources druids could get at level 2.
Wait. The balm dice aren't a resource?
They don't cost Balm dice? Also, a level 1 spell give you 10 “free” revives for your teammates and my group members tend not to go down at a rate that I need my level's worth of revives in a day anyway.
That quote wasn't talking about balm... It was comparing Hearth of moonlight and shadow to a spell...
I’m sorry, I don’t see your point here. I’ve said elsewhere, if you are trying to get people up, you can do it 10 times a day for a free first level slot (what does free even mean anymore?). If you are trying to provide HP, 1d6 per level isn’t all that much... unless the rest of your party is wizards or sorcerers.
That is partly it, and partly that the healing you get from it (while it has decent action economy and range) isn't good enough to make you good at healing.
Yep, and 10 spell slots is better than 20d6+20 healing. 1 spell slot is better than 2d6+2 healing. It is better.
Land druid is like vanilla ice cream. Doesn't have the most unique flavor, but it's very good on it's own and sometimes you just feel like having it by itself.
I enjoy playing Land. Natural recovery is great because it lets you do more of the thing that is most impactful for a druid, i.e. casting high level spells. Many times it will literally double the number of spell slots for the highest level spell you can cast. At worst it gives you 33% more (until you get higher than lvl 5 spells).
Well, I just had a circle of dreams join my 8th level party last night (character change) so I guess I'll get some first hand experience with it. First impression wasn't great, but that was mostly because he mistakenly thought the familiar thing in tasha's replaced wild shape. We really needed him to fly someone out of danger (I got 1 away with dimension door) and when I suggested he turn into a giant eagle, he said he can't do it so he just did nothing.
Your math is off, or at least it ignores the limitations and opportunity costs faced by land druids when casting spells. Land druids get half a slot extra per level that they can only access after using spell slots then taking a short rest. This means that land druids will over the course of an adventuring day have access to more high level slots and have more flexibility in what spells they use their slots on out of combat than dreams druids, presuming they have reason to use slots and access to rests. That's great and is a viable thing to build a character around, but dreams druids still come out on top when it comes to total access to "spell slots", "spells" per round, and "spell slots" per encounter. Land druids get half a spell slot extra per level but they have to use a full spell slot every time they cast healing word. Dreams druids get the functional equivalent of an extra full spell slot per level, they are simply limited to using that slot for one particular spell (that limitation would be more problematic if healing at a distance wasn't so darned useful). Even more importantly they can cast a leveled spell and heal at a distance every single round. Dreams druids are objectively better casters than land druids when viewed on a spells per round basis because they aren't limited to cantrips when healing. They are also objectively better on an access to "spell slots" per encounter basis because they get access to every one of their bonus "1st level slots" without having to use a short rest. In most fights that only last 2-4 rounds the differences between land and dreams druids won't matter but in the big boss fights dreams druids have significantly more stamina than land druids and won't be stuck using cantrips.
I will point out that if you’re not using your spell slots then, of course, having more will not matter. If you have one combat a day that lasts 2-4 rounds, there is no chance that you will run out of spell slots whether you have additional resources to heal with. If you have features that rely on short rests, you might be more inclined to take them. Additionally, a dreams druid can still only cast one non-cantrip spell per round. Those are all fairly obvious.
Have you not been paying attention to all of the "spell slots" being thrown around in quotation marks, or discussion equating Balm to Healing Word? No one was ever saying the Dreams druid gets to cast more non-cantrips per round. The point is that the functionality of Balm means the Dreams druid gets access to two spell equivalent effects per round without invoking the bonus action casting rule.
NH23 never mentioned only having one combat a day.
Pointing out it isn't a given to have access to a short rest has its merit when comparing the efficacy of Recovery and Balm. I've certainly been in sessions where the pace is so hectic and everything is so dangerous that we couldn't afford one.
Neither Dreams or Land is going to make use of their 2nd level ability in a session that doesn't require spell slots, so that is a wash and not really worth discussing.
Wolf, your response is just so far off base because of how much you've taken things out of context. NH23 did a good job explaining their thoughts. This should have all been fairly obvious.
You're making a big deal out of this, Zot. That isn't surprising considering our other interactions on these forums. You seem to have a different understanding of the game than I do.
If your side is indicating that a player can get the effect of a spell slot by using a class feature instead of a slot, that is certainly not limited to the Dreams subclass. A class feature isn't a spell, and plenty of PCs (including other druid subclasses) get class features that provide actions or bonus actions. That point is moot.
If you're indicating that you don't have access to rests, then, well, you've already given up access to the best healing source in the game. At that point, then who cares about how much healing you can do because you're already leaving so much on the table.
Certainly I didn't start the war of taking comments out of context. Healing isn't a feature that I'm excited about, and so a mediocre source of it is way less exciting than anything else you can get at level 2 from the druid class. That is all.
A bonus action heal for a small amount is really important occasionally when you need it and not very useful otherwise. Sure, the dreams druid can do it more times than other druids, but other druids can generally do it as much as they need.
I think circle of dreams is bad from an optimization standpoint, but I think it's actually far worse from a "fun" or "design" standpoint. Being almost entirely dedicated to abusing the whole "any amount of healing brings you back from unconscious/dying" is not a good thing IMO.
Thinly veiled ad hominems. I like a little foreplay.
I will once again point you to the title of this thread: "Circle of Dreams is one of the worst sublcasses in the game. Prove me wrong." This isn't about trying to prove the Dreams subclass is providing something unique to the game, or better than other options that provide actions and bonus actions. Or that it's even a strong subclass. Just that it's not one of the worst in the game. Discussing Balm's resource and action economy strengths is not a moot point. It's exactly the kind of point that works towards building a case for the subclass not being complete garbage.
Let me reiterate: I don't think Dreams is that good. I think it's solid but unexciting and certainly worse than most if not every other druid. But that does not make it one of the worst subclasses in the game. There are some real duds out there setting the bar pretty low and I think Dreams clears it at least decently well.
Your logic makes no sense. A session where the DM is trying to exhaust you of resources with a high pressure day, without a chance to short rest, is going to be when your party values an extra source of healing the most. What do you mean "who cares?" Everybody that doesn't want to die, that's who. Without those precious hit die to count on Balm is probably at its most valuable.
There was and never will be a war. It was just you, in one post, taking things out of context.
You are certainly entitled to like any druid subclass more than dreams. For concept reasons, mechanical reasons, whatever. That is a moot point. Because this isn't druid subclass competition day.
Zoltar99 I can certainly appreciate your feelings about the design aspect of Dreams, in general and regarding the healing. I personally don't really like the existence of Spare the Dying so being irked by easy access to that effect makes sense to me. I think in this case you're giving up much more because the opportunity cost of one cantrip is pittance compared to your choice of subclass. So Balm doesn't end up bothering me like Spare can. I am disappointed overall in how the abilities implement the flavor of the concept. It's quite bland.
Mechanically though, I don't think it belongs in the dumpster bin. It's fine. Just fine.
Ok Zot, we may not actually completely disagree. On the other hand, In 5e preventing damage is always better than healing. Every other druid (and most other subclasses) are better equipped to do that.
Your logic on "A session where the DM is trying to exhaust you of resources" doesn't make sense. You can't be exhausted of resources if you don't use them - and that was my point above. More detail can be provided, if you like.
Okay, you seem to be stuck on something because you keep harping on this no use of spell slots thing despite me being quite clear in outlining how a DM can exhaust a party's resources, including spell slot and deny a short rest.
Just because NH23 put them in the same sentence with an "and" doesn't mean that every session where you don't get to short rest is also a session that does not require spell slots. These are not some pair of mutual qualities that are always found together. There can absolutely be sessions that are demanding in terms of combat and push the party to their limit by not giving time to short rest.
And you seem to be stuck too. I'm glad you wanted clarification. I actually wasn't talking about spell slots in the section you quoted. My point is that short rests provide an opportunity for characters to use resources such as hit dice and Natural Recovery that cannot be used without short rests. If you have resources such as hit dice that you have not used, you are not resource starved.
A DM could choose to flat out deny resources any way they choose, in theory even by saying that they will not allow bonus actions to be used. A player's choice to deny the group of a particular resource is hard to judge when trying to compare the value of various resource types, but I think overall makes for a poor argument about the flat out usefulness of a resource. Maybe you won't take any short rests in a day; but on the same token, maybe your group won't take any damage on a given day.
Wait so me and couple others have been talking about the Dreams in terms of all of their virtual "spell slots" when it comes to resources and your response is to talk about every resource except spell slots? I'm genuinely confused. Do you not understand the points people have been making or do you intend on just talking past people?
Do you understand the premise of a DM running the party ragged with encounters without giving them time to short rest? Because your responses make it seem like you don't. It essentially negates the existence of hit die for healing. Sure, they're technically still there to use, but if the team never gets a chance to use them what's the difference? So yes, in this type of scenario, the party is absolutely resource starved as they struggle to keep up with the pace of encounters without hit dice healing and renewal of short rest abilities.
So your argument is that being resource efficient doesn't matter because the DM can do whatever they want? And that the DM could decide to not let you have bonus actions so Balm would be unusable? Come on Wolf, that point is so thin I don't think it even counts as one. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Again.
You're objectively wrong. An abilility's capacity to function under times of duress, when shit is hitting the fan, is an excellent trait for an ability to have. That's when you need abilities to show up and deliver the most, so pointing out Balm can do that is a great case for its usefulness.
Maybe your DMs don't like to make you sweat, but in my experience pressuring short (and long) rests is a common tactic to make things more challenging. Meanwhile the rarer RP heavy days where little to no combat happens? Well those are generally low pressure days, at least in terms of dying. It's the high pressure ones where you need all of your abilities to function at their highest level. So again, Balm is a solid ability with merit that helps prop up the Dreams druid. It has value, mostly tied in its nature as a bonus action. The fact that it functions well in a low resource session is icing on the cake, and nice icing at that. But it was never what Balm leaned on for the bulk of its value.
I don't know. Most of my time in this thread is defending my position to people who seem to get stuck on one idea at a time. It never seems to be the one that is the thesis: Healing is not good in 5e. Healing is never better than preventing damage. Every other druid subclass gives you something better than healing.
Yes, you might have a DM that takes away your ability to use your resources (that is what taking away short rests is), but even when that happens, it still wont' happen frequently enough to overcome how much better real spellslots are than Balm dice.
I guess I have the answer to my question. Keep on doing your ship passing in the night routine if it makes you happy.
No one is addressing your "thesis" because it's a complicated subject that deserves its own thread and is irrelevant to proving Dreams doesn't belong in the dumpster. You don't need to prove the subclass is anything special to do that. Just pointing out its a full caster with more spellslot-like resources is enough. How many times do I have to say I don't think Dreams is anything special and that proving it's an elite option in any way isn't part of my intended response to the thread?