He is currently a Level 8 human fighter employing the Battle Master Martial Archetype.
He is STR 18, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 11, CHR 10.
He has 69 HP and an AC of 20.
He wears plate armor, and wields a shield and longsword.
He has the following feats: Heavy Armor Master and Shield Master.
His fighting style is protection, but (with the DM's permission), he is currently training to replace protection with defense (but I am open to considering dueling).
Going forward, he intends to perform the following combo in combat: shove prone, drop shield, grapple and then attack his proned, grappled enemies, integrating various maneuvers into the combo to increase its effectiveness.
My question really is what to do at levels 12, 14, 16 and 19. I'm looking for progression options, as well as feedback on my current inclination. My goal is to create a balanced, survivable, fighter that leans tank, as I am the tankiest member of the group.
Here is what I am currently thinking, but I am completely open minded and want to hear your opinions and suggestions.
Levels:
12. +2 STR, bringing it to 20. Helps with attack, damage, and grappling.
14. Resilient feat +1 DEX, bringing it to 14 and adding proficiency to DEX saving throws. My thought is that this will synergize well with the third feature of the Shield Master Feat and will make the character tankier.
16. Prodigy feat, adding expertise to Athletics and proficiency to Sleight of Hand and Smith's Tools. My thought is that this will greatly increase the effectiveness of grappling.
19. +2 CON. More HP = more survivable.
I'm eager to hear your thoughts on this proposed character progression and I'm even more interested in your alternatives. Thanks!
Your progression looks great, but there is a big problem with your combo. Removing your shield is a full action unless you have fast hands from the rogue. I've been struggling with the same thing with my grappler.
Because you already have shield master, I think you should just use that shield bonus action to knock prone every turn. If you are set on grappling and are inclined to get 3-4 levels of rogue, you at least save a feat because you no longer need prodigy and can use that feat for something else. Without going rogue, you could maybe work on tavern brawler to your feat progression and use your shield as an improvised weapon. Alternatively, you could work with your DM to have a quick release or weapon shield made for your character.
Your progression looks great, but there is a big problem with your combo. Removing your shield is a full action unless you have fast hands from the rogue. I've been struggling with the same thing with my grappler.
Because you already have shield master, I think you should just use that shield bonus action to knock prone every turn. If you are set on grappling and are inclined to get 3-4 levels of rogue, you at least save a feat because you no longer need prodigy and can use that feat for something else. Without going rogue, you could maybe work on tavern brawler to your feat progression and use your shield as an improvised weapon. Alternatively, you could work with your DM to have a quick release or weapon shield made for your character.
Hi pwhimp,
Thanks for your reply!
My plan was to drop the shield instead of doff it in order to spare the action. In my mind, the difference was that the shield would fall to the ground rather than be affixed to my person (but no longer wielded). Tactically, this would be less than ideal, for obvious reasons, but it has far better action economy. I have never actually seen rules or interpretation regarding this question of drop vs doff of a shield (or if there even is such a distinction). I also haven't sought adjudication from my DM yet. I wonder what people think is the "correct" interpretation of these mechanics.
Doffing is defined in the equipment section, "Doff. This is the time it takes to take off armor. If you have help, reduce this time by half." I think this means that you can't just drop a shield any more than you could just drop your plate armor. That being said, maybe your DM will be more sensitive to the needs of a struggling grappler and allow dropping a shield (maybe as part of the shield master feat?). If your DM doesn't go for it, you could try asking about the other suggestions (gnomish-made quick-release shield or bashing as an improvised weapon). You could even suggest something like a buckler for only +1 AC but with the ability to drop the shield.
Sorry, I just get blinding pain across the temples when someone suggests this sort of stuff!
"Going forward, he intends to perform the following combo in combat: shove prone, drop shield, grapple and then attack his proned, grappled enemies, integrating various maneuvers into the combo to increase its effectiveness. " QFT
How often are you going to be in a situation when it is going to be a good tactical decision to jump on a downed enemy, bearing in mind that this is a situation in which you have decided to dress up in plate armour and carry a three-foot long sword?
I am reminded of a Monty Python sketch in which army recruits are taught the secrets of self defence vs cherry-bunch wielding adversaries...
The only time I have seen such moves in real life, the wrestler's mum snatched up a folding chair and jumped into the ring and proceeded to attack the referee......
The headache is fading now, replaced by demonic chanting..."Jerry! Jerry! Jer-re-ree!................." Must...drown...it...out...with some...Cream...and..black...curtains.....
How often are you going to be in a situation when it is going to be a good tactical decision to jump on a downed enemy, bearing in mind that this is a situation in which you have decided to dress up in plate armour and carry a three-foot long sword?
Maybe I'm not understanding you. Are you suggesting that you have to jump on an enemy to grapple them? Grappling, though unfortunately named, is more like holding someone in this edition. It only restricts their movement, but not their attacks or defenses. I could agree that greco-roman wrestling is a bad idea in plate armor with a sword, but holding down an opponent with one arm so that you can stab more effectively with the other is a great tactic.
A prone opponent has disadvantage on their attacks and melee attacks against the prone opponent have advantage. Grappling them prevent a prone opponent from getting up. Why is this a bad tactic, especially for a fighter that gets 2-4 attacks and only has to use one of them to grapple?
If you knock someone down, then yes, I would say to grapple them you have to jump on them unless you are an orang-utan*. As a DM, I would then rule that you are also prone. And stabbing someone with a longsword while grappling them? See the orang-utan commment and the "three foot long sword" comment I made earlier.
*Or a large bird or bipedal dinosaur. Or Mr. Tickle or Mr. Fantastic.
In my world, (which has real world experience) grappling requires most of the body.
If you want to take an enemy alive, take a level of wizard and a sleep spell, batter them X times, where X=Your Total Level - 1, then cast sleep. (1 less battering for squishy types.) Also find out the DMs rules on npc death at zero HP and casting revivify.
Barbarians grapple, Battle Masters master battle!
Edit : A certain Dwarf by the name of Pwent may disagree with all of the above...but his goal is rarely to take prisoners.
Edit : forget what I said about sleep and revivify, the PHB states "When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable." So if you want to take a foe alive - just keep swinging.
If you knock someone down, then yes, I would say to grapple them you have to jump on them unless you are an orang-utan*. As a DM, I would then rule that you are also prone. And stabbing someone with a longsword while grappling them? See the orang-utan commment and the "three foot long sword" comment I made earlier.
*Or a large bird or bipedal dinosaur. Or Mr. Tickle or Mr. Fantastic.
In my world, (which has real world experience) grappling requires most of the body.
If you want to take an enemy alive, take a level of wizard and a sleep spell, batter them X times, where X=Your Total Level - 1, then cast sleep. (1 less battering for squishy types.) Also find out the DMs rules on npc death at zero HP and casting revivify.
Barbarians grapple, Battle Masters master battle!
Edit : A certain Dwarf by the name of Pwent may disagree with all of the above...but his goal is rarely to take prisoners.
I can't really change how you would rule, but RAW you don't have to be prone to grapple someone who is prone.
When a target is grappled, the only thing they can't do is move. That could mean something as simple as grabbing the enemies wrist to keep them in place. Two arm lengths is plenty of room to swing a sword.
As for grappling requiring most of the body, that is why I think grappling is a bad name for what is actually happening. It only requires one free hand and you can grapple two enemies at once if you want. You seem to be thinking more along the lines of the grappler feat where you can pin your grapplee, restraining both of you.
Grappling isn't about taking enemies alive, it's about control. Grappling a prone opponent is about making enemies easier to hit and making it harder to hit you. If you want to take an enemy alive, just make melee attacks and tell your DM that you want to do non-lethal damage as outlined here, no revivify necessary.
if you knock them prone, you get advantage on melee attacks against them. You don't get double advantage for grappling them when they're down, just plain old advantage. In this edition there's really no reason to grapple them after they're on the floor, except flavor. I do like the idea of talking to your DM about a smaller shield that you can drop when needed, cause that adds to the flavor. Normally if a player comes to me with an idea and is willing to balance the scales to make it happen, i'd be amenable to figuring it out. Bottom line is always "talk to your DM about it." Who knows, maybe they'll let you make a homebrew feat or maneuver you can swap for another.
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I'm seeking input on my character's progression.
He is currently a Level 8 human fighter employing the Battle Master Martial Archetype.
He is STR 18, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 11, CHR 10.
He has 69 HP and an AC of 20.
He wears plate armor, and wields a shield and longsword.
He has the following feats: Heavy Armor Master and Shield Master.
His fighting style is protection, but (with the DM's permission), he is currently training to replace protection with defense (but I am open to considering dueling).
Going forward, he intends to perform the following combo in combat: shove prone, drop shield, grapple and then attack his proned, grappled enemies, integrating various maneuvers into the combo to increase its effectiveness.
My question really is what to do at levels 12, 14, 16 and 19. I'm looking for progression options, as well as feedback on my current inclination. My goal is to create a balanced, survivable, fighter that leans tank, as I am the tankiest member of the group.
Here is what I am currently thinking, but I am completely open minded and want to hear your opinions and suggestions.
Levels:
12. +2 STR, bringing it to 20. Helps with attack, damage, and grappling.
14. Resilient feat +1 DEX, bringing it to 14 and adding proficiency to DEX saving throws. My thought is that this will synergize well with the third feature of the Shield Master Feat and will make the character tankier.
16. Prodigy feat, adding expertise to Athletics and proficiency to Sleight of Hand and Smith's Tools. My thought is that this will greatly increase the effectiveness of grappling.
19. +2 CON. More HP = more survivable.
I'm eager to hear your thoughts on this proposed character progression and I'm even more interested in your alternatives. Thanks!
Your progression looks great, but there is a big problem with your combo. Removing your shield is a full action unless you have fast hands from the rogue. I've been struggling with the same thing with my grappler.
Because you already have shield master, I think you should just use that shield bonus action to knock prone every turn. If you are set on grappling and are inclined to get 3-4 levels of rogue, you at least save a feat because you no longer need prodigy and can use that feat for something else. Without going rogue, you could maybe work on tavern brawler to your feat progression and use your shield as an improvised weapon. Alternatively, you could work with your DM to have a quick release or weapon shield made for your character.
Doffing is defined in the equipment section, "Doff. This is the time it takes to take off armor. If you have help, reduce this time by half." I think this means that you can't just drop a shield any more than you could just drop your plate armor. That being said, maybe your DM will be more sensitive to the needs of a struggling grappler and allow dropping a shield (maybe as part of the shield master feat?). If your DM doesn't go for it, you could try asking about the other suggestions (gnomish-made quick-release shield or bashing as an improvised weapon). You could even suggest something like a buckler for only +1 AC but with the ability to drop the shield.
Those are all good suggestions. Thanks!
Aaaarrrggghhhhhh!
Sorry, I just get blinding pain across the temples when someone suggests this sort of stuff!
"Going forward, he intends to perform the following combo in combat: shove prone, drop shield, grapple and then attack his proned, grappled enemies, integrating various maneuvers into the combo to increase its effectiveness. " QFT
How often are you going to be in a situation when it is going to be a good tactical decision to jump on a downed enemy, bearing in mind that this is a situation in which you have decided to dress up in plate armour and carry a three-foot long sword?
I am reminded of a Monty Python sketch in which army recruits are taught the secrets of self defence vs cherry-bunch wielding adversaries...
The only time I have seen such moves in real life, the wrestler's mum snatched up a folding chair and jumped into the ring and proceeded to attack the referee......
The headache is fading now, replaced by demonic chanting..."Jerry! Jerry! Jer-re-ree!................." Must...drown...it...out...with some...Cream...and..black...curtains.....
Roleplaying since Runequest.
If you knock someone down, then yes, I would say to grapple them you have to jump on them unless you are an orang-utan*. As a DM, I would then rule that you are also prone.
And stabbing someone with a longsword while grappling them? See the orang-utan commment and the "three foot long sword" comment I made earlier.
*Or a large bird or bipedal dinosaur. Or Mr. Tickle or Mr. Fantastic.
In my world, (which has real world experience) grappling requires most of the body.
If you want to take an enemy alive, take a level of wizard and a sleep spell, batter them X times, where X=Your Total Level - 1, then cast sleep. (1 less battering for squishy types.)
Also find out the DMs rules on npc death at zero HP and casting revivify.
Barbarians grapple, Battle Masters master battle!
Edit : A certain Dwarf by the name of Pwent may disagree with all of the above...but his goal is rarely to take prisoners.
Edit : forget what I said about sleep and revivify, the PHB states "When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable."
So if you want to take a foe alive - just keep swinging.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Hey Plundered,
Thanks for your input.
if you knock them prone, you get advantage on melee attacks against them. You don't get double advantage for grappling them when they're down, just plain old advantage. In this edition there's really no reason to grapple them after they're on the floor, except flavor. I do like the idea of talking to your DM about a smaller shield that you can drop when needed, cause that adds to the flavor. Normally if a player comes to me with an idea and is willing to balance the scales to make it happen, i'd be amenable to figuring it out. Bottom line is always "talk to your DM about it." Who knows, maybe they'll let you make a homebrew feat or maneuver you can swap for another.