Action Surge + Light/Nick

How does action surge work when combined with weapons with the light property and the nick mastery? Can this give a total of 4 attacks?

Action Surge: You can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magic action. Once you use this feature, you can’t do so again until you finish a Short or Long Rest. Starting at level 17, you can use it twice before a rest but only once on a turn.

Light: When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don't add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.

Nick: When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Edit: How I see it, I have the following available during my turn:

• Action
• Action Surge = Action #2
• Bonus Action

Could I, for example, do the following:

1. Action: Attack with a Dagger and then a Shortsword as a single Action thanks to the Nick Mastery.
2. Action Surge = one extra Action: Attack with Dagger, the Light property grants me a Bonus Action.
3. Bonus Action: Attack with Shortsword.

This only uses the Nick Mastery once during this turn. And uses the Light ability twice.

I take 2 actions and 1 bonus action.

• Action 1 = 2 attacks
• Action 2 = 1 attack
• Bonus Action = 1 attack

Therefore, a total of 4 attacks.

Is this an oversight or the intention of the wording?

Edit 2: Thank you to everyone that was kind and patient.

I now believe that this is how Light + Nick + Action Surge works (I will use 3 separate Light weapons for clarity) (I am writing this is for people who didn't understand the rules, like me, so I will try to explain it as simply as I can to avoid misunderstandings. Please correct me if I am wrong, but do so kindly):

1. You use your Action to attack with a dagger, the Light property allows you to make an “Extra Attack” with a shortsword as a Bonus Action. 
   • Action: Attack with Dagger
   • Bonus Action: “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
2. The Nick Mastery moves the “Extra Attack” from the Bonus Action to the Action.
   • Action: Attack with Dagger and “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
   • Bonus Action: [empty]
3. Action Surge gives you 1 non-magic Action. You attack with a club. The club's Light property would normally grant an “Extra Attack” but ‘you can make this “Extra Attack” only once per turn’. You cannot have more than 1 “Extra Attack” during your turn, even though your Bonus Action is now empty. You already used your “Extra Attack” on your Action, therefore, cannot use a second “Extra Attack” on your Action Surge (or any other additional Action).
   • Action: Attack with Dagger and “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
   • Bonus Action: [empty]
   • Action Surge: Attack with Club
   • –End of turn–

The 2024 rules could definitely be written more clearly. (For example, calling the vague “Extra Attack” something clearer like the Light Attack.)

When Nick says “You can make this extra attack only once per turn”, it is saying that you cannot do another Light Attack on that turn even though your Bonus Action is now available.

No, it can't. As stated in the Nick description, the extra attack from the Light property can only be made once per turn. Action Surge gives you an additional action, but it's still part of the same turn, so you can't make the Light attack again.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

No, it can't. As stated in the Nick description, the extra attack from the Light property can only be made once per turn. Action Surge gives you an additional action, but it's still part of the same turn, so you can't make the Light attack again.

'This' is used to refer to previous instance, not some instance that occurs in a different paragraph of text a section earlier. So the only reasonable interpretation is that you can only use NIck once per turn, not that Nick imposes a limitation on the Light property. So you should be able to (in theory):

1. Attack Action. Make an attack with a Light weapon. Make an attack with the Nick property.
2. Action Boost Attack Action. Make an attack with a Light weapon.
3. Bonus Action. Make an attack using the Light property from #2.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

No, it can't. As stated in the Nick description, the extra attack from the Light property can only be made once per turn. Action Surge gives you an additional action, but it's still part of the same turn, so you can't make the Light attack again.

'This' is used to refer to previous instance, not some instance that occurs in a different paragraph of text a section earlier. So the only reasonable interpretation is that you can only use NIck once per turn, not that Nick imposes a limitation on the Light property. So you should be able to (in theory):

1. Attack Action. Make an attack with a Light weapon. Make an attack with the Nick property.
2. Action Boost Attack Action. Make an attack with a Light weapon.
3. Bonus Action. Make an attack using the Light property from #2.

No one is saying that anything refers to "some instance that occurs in a different paragraph of text a section earlier"; I'm not sure where you're getting that from. It does, indeed, seem refer to the previous sentence in the Nick property's description. That description is:

When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Just going by the normal rules of English, the part in blue, "this extra attack", is referring back to the part in green, "the extra attack of the Light property". I don't really see anything else here it could be referring to. The extra attack of the Light property is the only "extra attack" being mentioned that the phrase "this extra attack" could refer to.

Therefore, it seems to me that the intent here is to limit the extra attack of the Light property to only being used once per turn, regardless of whether you're making it as a bonus action or as part of the Attack action. Everything about Nick and Light and dual-wielding in general is kind of a mess in 5.5e, and all of it could obviously be worded more clearly, but I think this is the only interpretation that doesn't rely on inventing concepts that aren't actually in the rules.

In the normal rules of English, the part in blue references the entire concept of the attack - including the conditionals added after the comma. You can't just arbitrarily exclude necessary conditions attached to the idea. 'This' is referring to the attack that was moved into your Attack Action. It is the answer to the question "what is the Nick Attack?" not the answer to the question "what was the Nick Attack before it became the Nick Attack?".

Moreover, taken in the context of the rules, putting the "once per turn" limitation on Nick would be truly bizarre if your intent was for it to work the way you suggest. You would move that line to the description of the Light property.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

 In the normal rules of English, the part in blue references the entire concept of the attack - including the conditionals added after the comma. You can't just arbitrarily exclude necessary conditions attached to the idea. 'This' is referring to the attack that was moved into your Attack Action. It is the answer to the question "what is the Nick Attack?" not the answer to the question "what was the Nick Attack before it became the Nick Attack?".

Nothing after the comma is a "conditional". The part after the comma is modifying how the extra attack of the Light property works when this weapon mastery property is used. 

"This" is not the answer to "what is the Nick Attack?" or "what was the Nick Attack before it became the Nick Attack?", because there is no "Nick Attack". This ability does not add a new attack the way that something like Extra Attack does; it just changes the timing of an existing attack. If the intent were for it to add a whole new attack that had different rules, it would be worded more like the Dual Wielder feat (which does add a new attack with different rules).

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

 Moreover, taken in the context of the rules, putting the "once per turn" limitation on Nick would be truly bizarre if your intent was for it to work the way you suggest. You would move that line to the description of the Light property.

The reason they didn't put that in the Light property is that, on its own, the fact that the Light attack is made as a bonus action is enough to limit it to once per turn already. This language in the Nick property is necessary to maintain that restriction when the attack is no longer a bonus action.

To be clear, I don't think that was a good idea; this is an example of the 5.5e philosophy of "never say anything that's even a tiny bit redundant" and the kind of confusion it can cause.

 How I see it, I have the following available during my turn:

• Action
• Action Surge = Action #2
• Bonus Action

Could I, for example, do the following:

1. Action: Attack with a Dagger and then a Shortsword as a single Action thanks to the Nick Mastery.
2. Action Surge = one extra Action: Attack with Dagger, the Light property grants me a Bonus Action.
3. Bonus Action: Attack with Shortsword.

This only uses the Nick Mastery once during this turn. And uses the Light ability twice.

I take 2 actions and 1 bonus action.

• Action 1 = 2 attacks
• Action 2 = 1 attack
• Bonus Action = 1 attack

Therefore, a total of 4 attacks.

Is this an oversight or the intention of the wording?

Quote from cuteasdeath >>

 How I see it, I have the following available during my turn:

• Action
• Action Surge = Action #2
• Bonus Action

Could I, for example, do the following:

1. Action: Attack with a Dagger and then a Shortsword as a single Action thanks to the Nick Mastery.
2. Action Surge = one extra Action: Attack with Dagger, the Light property grants me a Bonus Action.
3. Bonus Action: Attack with Shortsword.

This only uses the Nick Mastery once during this turn. And uses the Light ability twice.

I take 2 actions and 1 bonus action.

• Action 1 = 2 attacks
• Action 2 = 1 attack
• Bonus Action = 1 attack

Therefore, a total of 4 attacks.

Is this an oversight or the intention of the wording?

All the wording around dual-wielding in 5.5e is extremely unclear, and there has been a lot of disagreement about it in the community.

My position is that since the Nick property explicitly says you can only make the Light attack once per turn, in your example you can only make three attacks: one Attack action makes a normal attack and the Light attack, and the second makes one normal attack. Your bonus action is then free for some other purpose but can't be used to make an attack (unless you have some other feature, like Polearm Master, that grants a bonus action attack).

VerilyRaze's position is (if I'm understanding it correctly) that the Nick property grants its own special attack separate from the Light property attack, and that this attack and the Light attack can be used in combination in the same turn (the former as part of one of the two Attack actions, the latter as a bonus action).

In the absence of any official ruling establishing how it's meant to work, it's up to your DM to decide how it works at their table.

My position is that what the Nick property says is that you can only modify your Light extra attack once per turn and the limitation in the text of Nick doesn't have any effect on an unrelated body of text elsewhere in the rules. "This extra attack" refer to the specific type of attack described in the previous sentence, not an unrelated extra attack described elsewhere.

The extra attack of the Light Property can only be made once per turn, regardless of Nick Mastery or additional action from Action Surge. 

This has been clarified in Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook | Dungeons & Dragons;

Nick

Example Weapon: Dagger

To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.

It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.

The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.

Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.

So for example you can effectively:

• Attack with Shortsword [Attack Action]
• Attack with Dagger [Nick Mastery]
• Attack with Dagger or Shortsword [Action Surge]

This leaves your Bonus Action free to do anything else except the extra Light Property since it already been made.

The guide doesn't support what you're claiming. What it actually says is that you can't make the same extra attack with both Nick and the Bonus Action. It's mute on what happens when you trigger the Light property multiple times.

The guide support that when saying ''Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack.''

If you  make the extra attack of the Light Property as apart of the  Attack action with Nick Mastery, making the extra attack of the Light Property as a Bonus Action as well would make a third attack which is that they say you can't.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

The guide support that when saying ''Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack.''

If you  make the extra attack of the Light Property as apart of the  Attack action with Nick Mastery, making the extra attack of the Light Property as a Bonus Action as well would make a third attack which is that they say you can't.

Just for the sake of clarity: what VerilyRaze is saying is that if you trigger the ability to make a Light property extra attack more than once in the same turn (by taking two Attack actions, via Action Surge or similar effects) you should be able to use Nick to make the extra attack twice — not one in the Attack action and one as a bonus action, but one within each of the two Attack actions. I don't agree with this, but they're correct that the article you quoted does not specifically address this case one way or the other.

The article say you only get one extra attack and Nick Mastery say you can make this extra attack only once per turn.

So i don't see a way to make the extra attack of the Light Property more than 1/turn this way.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

What the guide says is that you only get one attack for each time you trigger the Light property - which is the same as what the rules say. What Nick says is that you can only trigger the Nick effect once per turn. The guide isn't actually very informative because it's only detailing a specific example which doesn't actually touch on any of the issues we're discussing here (since it involves only a single attack during your Attack Action).

If the guide was saying that the Light property has a per turn limit it would say that. It doesn't. Nor do the actual rules.

Likewise, the once/turn limit on Nick is referencing Nick itself, not the Light property in general.

You can't just take a single clause out of context - especially when that clause contains references to the surrounding text.

When Nick Mastery say You can make this extra attack only once per turn, it refers to the extra attack of the Light property, not Nick effect.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

When Nick Mastery say You can make this extra attack only once per turn, it refers to the extra attack of the Light property, not Nick effect.

No, it refers to the Nick effect. Subjunctive clauses do not arbitrarily reach many paragraphs away. They refer to the closest reference.

You might consider that the entire Nick paragraph doesn't even exist until you've activated the Nick property. Just like every other mastery.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

When Nick Mastery say You can make this extra attack only once per turn, it refers to the extra attack of the Light property, not Nick effect.

No, it refers to the Nick effect. Subjunctive clauses do not arbitrarily reach many paragraphs away. They refer to the closest reference.

You might consider that the entire Nick paragraph doesn't even exist until you've activated the Nick property. Just like every other mastery.

It seems clear we're not going to come to an agreement here, but I do just want to clarify that no one is saying that anything "reaches many paragraphs away" or anything like that. That's not what anyone is arguing here. (That is also not what a "subjunctive clause" is.)

The position is that when it says "this extra attack", it is referring to "the extra attack of the Light property", as mentioned in the previous clause in the same sentence. 

Thank you to everyone that was kind and patient.

I now believe that this is how Light + Nick + Action Surge works (I will use 3 separate Light weapons for clarity) (I am writing this is for people who didn't understand the rules, like me, so I will try to explain it as simply as I can to avoid misunderstandings. Please correct me if I am wrong, but do so kindly):

1. You use your Action to attack with a dagger, the Light property allows you to make an “Extra Attack” with a shortsword as a Bonus Action. 
   • Action: Attack with Dagger
   • Bonus Action: “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
2. The Nick Mastery moves the “Extra Attack” from the Bonus Action to the Action.
   • Action: Attack with Dagger and “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
   • Bonus Action: [empty]
3. Action Surge gives you 1 non-magic Action. You attack with a club. The club's Light property would normally grant an “Extra Attack” but ‘you can make this “Extra Attack” only once per turn’. You cannot have more than 1 “Extra Attack” during your turn, even though your Bonus Action is now empty. You already used your “Extra Attack” on your Action, therefore, cannot use a second “Extra Attack” on your Action Surge (or any other additional Action).
   • Action: Attack with Dagger and “Extra Attack” with Shortsword
   • Bonus Action: [empty]
   • Action Surge: Attack with Club
   • –End of turn–

The 2024 rules could definitely be written more clearly. (For example, calling the vague “Extra Attack” something clearer like the Light Attack.)

When Nick says “You can make this extra attack only once per turn”, it is saying that you cannot do another Light Attack on that turn even though your Bonus Action is now available.