Action Surge + Light/Nick - Resolved

I think the previous discussion resembles the discussion that took place in Is Dual Wielder Necessary?

In that thread, I left my own explanation of how Light and Nick work:

• The "extra attack only once per turn" in the Nick Mastery Property refers to the extra attack granted by the Light property. Nick doesn't provide a new extra attack; it shifts the extra attack of the Light property from a Bonus Action to an extra attack as part of the Attack action, and adds a restriction to it: "You can make this extra attack only once per turn".
• Because of the previous rule, if you use Nick, you can only make the Light property's extra attack once per turn.
• The Dual Wielder feat provides another source for a bonus action attack, separate from both Light and Nick.

Also, I shared this example written by SmiteMakesRight_3_5 related to Action Surge:

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from Paradox_Traveler >>

     RAW for both BA and Nick is once per turn, so unless you have a class or Species feature that allows  extra attacks for the attack action, the best one can accomplish is only 3 attacks even with DW.

      DW states one weapon has to be light, the other can be anything other than a two-handed weapon, and basically reuses the same wording as TWF from 2014. But thats the thing, you can’t use Nick twice, so your basically trying to use your BA twice, which by RAW is a no.

If you use a Nick Weapon, the extra attack no longer requires a bonus action. You are restricted to using one Bonus Action a turn.

I think I see a potential source of confusion. See if this clarifies things.

• Light gives you an extra attack.
  • If the Nick Mastery doesn't apply, you need to use a Bonus Action to make this attack and your Bonus Action is not available for other activities, such as the extra attack from Enhanced Dual Wielding.
  • If you are benefitting from Nick, this extra attack does not use a Bonus Action and it is available to use.
  • The once per round limit from Nick only applies to the extra attack from the Light Property and only that source of extra attacks.
  • Effectively the Light property with Nick reads like this:
    • "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action part of the same Attack action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. You make this extra attack only once per turn.  For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative."
• Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you an extra attack.
  • this extra attack always requires that you use a Bonus Action to make the attack.
  • In order to make this extra attack, you must use the Attack and attack with a Light weapon, but it does not use or change the extra attack from the Light weapon property. Notice how Nick says "When you make the extra attack of the Light property..." and Enhanced Dual Wielding says "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property...", Nick changes the behavior of the Light property, but Enhanced Dual Wielding gives you a separate source of an extra attack.
• Because Nick removes the Bonus Action requirement of the extra attack from the Light property, they can be combined.
  • A level 20 Fighter has 4 attacks per turn.
  • With a level 20 Fighter and the Nick Weapon Mastery, that becomes 5 attacks with an Attack action.
  • With a level 20 Fighter that has the Nick Mastery and using a Bonus Action for Enhanced Dual Wielding, that becomes 6 attacks per turn.
  • If the same Fighter uses an Action Surge, they can use an additional Attack action to get 4 more attacks (a total of 10) because Nick limited the extra attack from the Light weapon property to once per turn.

Does that help?

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

When Nick Mastery say You can make this extra attack only once per turn, it refers to the extra attack of the Light property, not Nick effect.

No, it refers to the Nick effect. Subjunctive clauses do not arbitrarily reach many paragraphs away. They refer to the closest reference.

You might consider that the entire Nick paragraph doesn't even exist until you've activated the Nick property. Just like every other mastery.

 There's no subjunctive clauses tha arbitrarily reach many paragraphs away, it refers to the senctence directly preceeding it, which is the closest reference.

Put in context, Nick Mastery exist in this perspective:

• When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. 
• When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Consider this:

Cleave: (description of how the Cleave extra attack works). You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Nick: (description of how the Nick extra attack works). You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

So we have two examples of abilities, in the same section, with the same format. In the first case, it's talking about what was just described in that section. In the second, you're claiming it's not talking about the extra attack that was just described but instead a completely different section elsewhere. That's akin to arguing that if I attack with my Halberd and use Cleave, I can no longer attack with my Halberd that turn.

Surely you can see why that interpretation looks absurd - you have to pretend half the text of the previous sentence simply doesn't exist and then try to rationalize some way to make sense of the rest of the paragraph.

The difference between Cleave and Nick Mastery is that only one of the two actually grant an extra attack, the other modifies an extra attack granted by a different game feature, which is the Light Property. 

That's why  Nick Mastery doesn't say it must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. Yet it still apply.

So when Nick Mastery say it and this, it refers to the extra attack of the Light Property. Yes it repeat the same sentence said in Cleave Mastery, but the major difference is the extra attack is from a different source in context:

Nick: You can make this* extra attack only once per turn. * = The extra attack of the Light Property.

Cleave: You can make this* extra attack only once per turn. * = The extra attack of the Cleave Mastery.

The 'extra attack' being reference is the extra attack modified by the Nick feature. You can't just ignore half of the previous sentence. In both cases, the restriction is on using the Weapon Mastery, not the underlying attacks that created the opportunity for the Weapon Mastery. This is how it works everywhere in the rules: when a feature says "you can only use this once per turn", they're talking about the specific feature being detailed, not features elsewhere that may be related.

Here Nick Mastery doesn't say ''You can ue this mastery only once per turn.''

What the mastery limit is the extra attack of the Light Property because it no longer is limited by the action econimy of Bonus Action itself when modified by Nick. 

Quote from cuteasdeath >>

The 2024 rules could definitely be written more clearly. (For example, calling the vague “Extra Attack” something clearer like the Light Attack.)

hoooo boy... yeah.

The rules are just RIDDLED with the same word being used with a dozen different meanings.

"level" can refer to character level, spell level, spell SLOT level, class level (i.e. 3 levels of Bard)

"action" can refer to things like "Attack[Action]" but those actions can be moved by various features to your BonusAction, though they're still called "actions".

and "attack" has got to be the absolute worst of them. 

"When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike."

right off the bat there, you have the "Attack action" and can make one "attack". So capitalization sometimes is extremely important.

"Level 5: Extra Attack; You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."

I love this terminology. It's just awesome. "Extra Attack" is not the same as "Attack" or "attack". all refer to differen things.

In weapon properties: "Light: When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn."

OOOOH YOU"RE KILLING ME. The Light property lets you make one "extra attack" but that's different than "Extra Attack" from fighter level 5, for example. And that "extra attack" is actually made on your Bonus Action, even though the term "Attack[Action]" refers to a lower case attack you make on your Action.

weapon mastery: "Nick: When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."

again, "attack" and "Attack" mean vitally different things. Also "extra attack" means something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from "Extra Attack". OOOHHHH I WANNA SCREAM!

THene there's the Duel Wielder Feat: "Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon,"

"When you take the Attack action ... and attack with a weapon.. make one extra attack"  <--- THIS IS SO AWESOME!!!! Every occurrence of the word attack there means somethign completely different.

"Level 11: Two Extra Attacks:  You can attack three times instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."

At level 11, you get "two extra attacks" rather than saying you get "ThirdAttack" or something straight forward.

You're killing me, Smalls.

So there's "Attack[Action]" which describes all the things you can do during your Action. And then there's "Extra Attack" which some classes unlock at level 5, and must only be done as part of Attack[Action]. And then there's the "extra attack" you get from light property, whcih is not the same as "Extra Attack", and is sometimes done during your BonusAction and sometimes done during your Action. Then there is the "extra attack" you get from Dual Wielder feat, which is different from "Extra Attack" BUT ALSO different from the Light Property "extra attack". 

DND rules were written by a linguistic madman. It takes new players a year, easily, to learn all the vocabulary, because so much of the vocabulary is the exact same word with many multiple completely different meanings.

THere should be a FirstAttack to mean the first attack you take during Attack[Action]. and then SecondAttack to point to what is called ExtraAttack. Followed by ThirdAttack for high level fighters. And then LightAttack to refer ot the attack one gets with the Light weapon property. And also the DualAttack to refer to the attack one gets from the Dual Wielding feat.

And then anything that is just "attack" becomes a generic term refering to all the other specific possible attacks.

If WOTC wanted to increase how many people play DND, stop making the rules a Nerd Lawyer Heck-Scape and use simple and clear language and stop using one word to mean a dozen different things.