I wanted to build a EK fighter for a new campaign that starts at 1st and goes to maybe 10th but one that focuses on very high survivability, good damage pacing, and the ability desire to tank and kite as much as possible. I haven’t seen a build quite like this yet and through I would share it so others can critique it before the game starts in case I overlooked something.
Since this is a build I plan to play level per level I tried to think about how each level will play out instead of building for a specific skill that won’t hit until 7 or 8th level or something like that. The one odd catch is our DM gave us 30 points for our stat buy because the other 3 players are new to the game and wanted to give everyone a slight edge, but not a huge one. Knowing the EK is a bit MAD I am choosing to focus on the rapier and weapon finesse so this is a dex based build. This helps with using a crossbow as a ranged weapon, I can use a shield and gain the armor, and it stacks to help with acrobatics and also higher initiative (which is really important to me in this game since it’s so hard to raise). Then I chose Human variant with points in dex and con and the trait Defensive Duelist (easily clearing the prereq). Choosing the basic outfit of chainmail, rapier and shield, and light crossbow then selecting the fighting style of Defense. For first level my stats look like this:
Ok, so that’s the base 1st level, 2nd level only adds action surge, so that’s that. At 3rd level is where it starts to come together. Take Eldritch Knight, bond with shield and rapier, cantrips are Minor Illusion and Booming Blade, 1st lvl spells are Shield, Absorb Elements, and Find Familiar (for my any spell on list choice). The main idea of the build is to basically spam BB whenever I can, then move back 5ft away from the enemy. This invokes an attack of opportunity but since they can only be melee attacks I’ll pop the Defensive Duelist as a bonus every time to raise the AC up to try and avoid the damage. This forces the enemy to move somewhere to attack assuming it’s melee (which at low levels most are) and triggers the 1d8 thunder damage. A 21 AC is really high for a long time level wise and will go up with better armor and proficiency bonus increases over time. If I’m fighting a boss then I can bonus action on Shield instead and jump to 24 AC for one round if I need the real save (or Absorb Elements). At 4th level just throw the +2 stat into Dex and bump up to +6 atk and 1d8+4 dmg on melee and ranged attacks. At 5th level it gets interesting because BB does base 1d8 thunder on the atk plus its usual 1d8 on movement of the enemy. But I also get 2 melee attacks per attack action if I want to go that route. So the choice is 2x1d8+4 (15 avg dmg) for 2 melee attacks or 4d8+4 (18 avg) with BB (at 5th the spell does 1d8 on attack and 2d8 on enemy movement) for one attack if I can kite him afterwards. The thing I forgot to mention is that my plan was to use a familiar to use the help action on it’s turn to give me advantage on the first attack per round when I can almost guaranteeing a hit with the BB versus less of a chance to hit with the second melee action (plus at 5th the proficiency bonus goes to 3 so DD ac rises to a min of 22). I feel I’d rather bet on the more constant damage than chance of missing half the damage but only if I can kite him at least 5 ft. This particular trade only lasts 2 rounds before the War Magic makes it no issue though since I can use BB and then another melee attack.
The main plan is to use ridiculous armor score to attempt to kite melee enemies to trigger the full damage of BB and see how it scales with level and other abilities. With using a familiar as help it should hit very often and with DD I should get hit not very often. Once it gets to higher levels I figure enemies will lean on magic and ranged attacks more often and the extra attacks per round might just work better tactics and math wise since if I can’t trick them into moving then it won’t trigger that extra damage. It’s not a big deal to drop to just full round attacks if I don’t think I can kite the enemy, like a wizard or something with primary ranged attacks. Since BB scales pretty well and DD also is based on proficiency bonus I feel like this sort of build might work for many levels. What are everyone else’s thoughts? Am I missing something here that makes this not work that well or does it just sound too gimmicky to be fun or functional?
I think your build hinges on [feat]defensive duelist[/feat] working in a way that it does not. Your AC is not 21, it is 19 and IF a melee attack is gonna hit you you can use your reaction to increase that AC. A reaction can be pretty important in combat, would you forgo attacks of opportunity to have defensive duelist ready? It also won't work on ranged attackers, which you mention but it is really important if your tactic is too withdraw. Then there is being attacked by either a multiattacker or multiple attackers. Sure this might give you the opportunity to pop defensive duelist but... I think your situation is pretty bleak. Especially if your opponent has pack tactics or just wants to flank you.
If I were your DM I would be designing encounters that challenge you, not ones that merely showcase one interesting method of combat.
I think crossbow should be your other bonded weapon. Perhaps duck around a corner cast minor illusion to create a crate of a rock that... looks like cover... what the DM thinks is up to the DM but the point being it's another tactic to employ you don't have to use defensive duelist just because it is there.
I haven't looked it up just this moment but, isn't find familiar not on the EK list?
Cheers
Edit, my bad find familiar is on the wizard list and EK uses the wizard list.
Something is only too gimmicky if it is A) too much hassle to run B) ruins other players enjoyment C) destroys everything with no retaliation possible, making adventuring actually just xp farming and thus making the challenge in challenge rating obsolete - which can take the fun out of the game. D) Your DM says it is and asks you to pick something else!
Alright, on with the choices. Nice that your thinking defensively and about mitigation, few do. Defensive duellist feat is alright, but wouldnt it be better to use your reaction on a shield spell? (its an eldritch knight approved choice after all and you cant use two reactions in one round) It would be a waste under the circumstances to have both unless you really think you will need that extra ac every round (but only against that one attack)
If your thinking about this, you might want to look into admantite armour rather than +X armour to prevent the inevitable bane of high AC, crits not only hitting but hitting so hard all your survival calculations are ruined.
Familiar summoning for advantage is as cheesey as it is apparently 'approved' ask your dm, before hand - its still cheese they might not want at the table.
If your not picking defensive duelist then what could be better for you? Well spell sniper could remove the need for you to carry a missile weapon (firebolt or chill touch are the usual choices taken) and increase your range with it. It would also allow you to remove the 16 in dex, put it into str (enabling all heavy armour for later without nasty penalties) lower dex to 10 and use the points elsewhere, hopefully to increase int for the spell hits
Sentinel will give you an alternative use for reactions and is especially useful if your not 'tank prime' or another friend is in the front line with you. If your ally next to you is attacked you get an extra attack per round - very nice at low levels.
Alternatively Heavy armour mastery - reduce damage from non magic physical by 3 - come on at first for a VH how much damage will this have absorbed by the time your even 3rd level? Lots. Add in a bladeward cantrip when hitting 3rd and when you run into a creature that will hit you every round even with your ac you can reduce your damage taken.
Hope that provides some thoughts, regardless of your choice enjoy your game!
if you are married to defensive duelist; whip might be a nifty flavour weapon. it won't deliver booming blade at 10 ft range due to 5ft range limit on the spell but, you can still use it at 5ft. also it is finesse, just a thought.
@gigaflop: Nah, the build doesn't hinge on it because I am aware of how it works. I know it's only on a reaction action and therefore once a round. My plan was if I am going to intentionally initiate attacks of opportunity to trigger the BB effect then I should try to mitigate that as much as possible. And since DD only works against melee attacks and you can only use melee attacks on AoO (except enemies that have special features to use other attacks instead which are rare) then it works to defend against it every time. SO mostly only trigger the DD when I trigger AoO to mitigate the extra attacks incurred (rely on the main ac for the normal attacks like normal). The only issue is that is also the slot that Shield and Absorb Elements live. So it's going to be situational since if I think there maybe an incoming large attack then I can just not trigger it and wait for the incoming attack and pop Shield or AE. Frankly the EK does not have a lot of spell slots and they refill only on a long rest so using 1st level spells really need to be though out. Can't hide behind Shield for very long when I can only cast it 2-4 times a day (so max 4 rounds per day, for +5 when DD is +3 at 5lvl and matches it at 13lvl but only against melee). I was planning on taking Thunderwave 4th lvl to deal with the occasional pack and try to just position myself to avoid being surrounded with basic movement tactics and acrobatics. Ranged is the usual issues but other than just the usual try to get out of the way and let the party archer and wizard deal with it I'm not much different than the usual melee spec fighter. I looked into the whip and it is just overall lower damage. Then range is cool but would require a lot of feats to make the range trigger the cool effect of attacking with BB at 10ft as a creature moves toward me to put me way behind on damage for an even harder to use gimmick that has much less AC to handle it.
@Moondruidsneversleep Shield spell is great but at best I can use it 4 rounds per day since EK spells refill on a long rest. And as I write above eventually DD scales better, but also it's at no use penalty, so I can use it once per round every round. As far as armor goes, yea, but since I'm playing from level 1 onward it's going to be very DM dependent on what is available. The familiar has so many other uses for scouting, stealth, fun tricks, delivering spells very long distances, ect... that it's not a one trick owl so the DM would have a hard to time arguing against it. Besides if he doesn't like it he can just kill it every time (maybe even saving me an attack) and force me to summon a new one. And since EK don't have ritual casting I have to spend materials and time and a slot for the day to get another one so it's at a high penalty. Unless he lets me buy scrolls but if he doesn't like it I bet those scrolls will be hard to find. I looked into the damage outputs for using the cantrips with damage and they are all so low I'd rather let the team archer and wizard deal with ranged attacks while I fire a crossbow. I'm never going to do well with it and it would be at such a cut into close range damage I might as well be a Battle Master. I haven't looked into Sentinel or Heavy Armor Mastery really but that could be fun. I like the dex based build because it works well with the initiative bonus perks and the crossbow atk and dmg being basically the same as the the rapier. Also it helps with the acrobatics for dealing with situations where I might have to pull some battle movement if I get surrounded. Generally more lateral choices and perks imho.
I wanted to build a EK fighter for a new campaign that starts at 1st and goes to maybe 10th but one that focuses on very high survivability, good damage pacing, and the ability desire to tank and kite as much as possible. I haven’t seen a build quite like this yet and through I would share it so others can critique it before the game starts in case I overlooked something.
Since this is a build I plan to play level per level I tried to think about how each level will play out instead of building for a specific skill that won’t hit until 7 or 8th level or something like that. The one odd catch is our DM gave us 30 points for our stat buy because the other 3 players are new to the game and wanted to give everyone a slight edge, but not a huge one. Knowing the EK is a bit MAD I am choosing to focus on the rapier and weapon finesse so this is a dex based build. This helps with using a crossbow as a ranged weapon, I can use a shield and gain the armor, and it stacks to help with acrobatics and also higher initiative (which is really important to me in this game since it’s so hard to raise). Then I chose Human variant with points in dex and con and the trait Defensive Duelist (easily clearing the prereq). Choosing the basic outfit of chainmail, rapier and shield, and light crossbow then selecting the fighting style of Defense. For first level my stats look like this:
Str: 13 (+1, 5 points)
Dex: 16 (+3, 15+1 human, 9 points)
Con: 16 (+3, 15+1 human, 9 points)
Int: 14 (+2, 7 points)
Wis: 8 (-1, 0 points
Cha: 8 (-1, 0 points)
Speed 30ft
HP: 13
AC: 19 base, 21 Defensive Duelist (16 chain mail + 2 shield + 1 Defense fighting style + 2 proficiency bonus on DD)
Melee: Rapier +5 atk, 1d8+3 dmg
Ranged: Light Crossbow +5 atk, 1d8 + 3 dmg
Ok, so that’s the base 1st level, 2nd level only adds action surge, so that’s that. At 3rd level is where it starts to come together. Take Eldritch Knight, bond with shield and rapier, cantrips are Minor Illusion and Booming Blade, 1st lvl spells are Shield, Absorb Elements, and Find Familiar (for my any spell on list choice). The main idea of the build is to basically spam BB whenever I can, then move back 5ft away from the enemy. This invokes an attack of opportunity but since they can only be melee attacks I’ll pop the Defensive Duelist as a bonus every time to raise the AC up to try and avoid the damage. This forces the enemy to move somewhere to attack assuming it’s melee (which at low levels most are) and triggers the 1d8 thunder damage. A 21 AC is really high for a long time level wise and will go up with better armor and proficiency bonus increases over time. If I’m fighting a boss then I can bonus action on Shield instead and jump to 24 AC for one round if I need the real save (or Absorb Elements). At 4th level just throw the +2 stat into Dex and bump up to +6 atk and 1d8+4 dmg on melee and ranged attacks. At 5th level it gets interesting because BB does base 1d8 thunder on the atk plus its usual 1d8 on movement of the enemy. But I also get 2 melee attacks per attack action if I want to go that route. So the choice is 2x1d8+4 (15 avg dmg) for 2 melee attacks or 4d8+4 (18 avg) with BB (at 5th the spell does 1d8 on attack and 2d8 on enemy movement) for one attack if I can kite him afterwards. The thing I forgot to mention is that my plan was to use a familiar to use the help action on it’s turn to give me advantage on the first attack per round when I can almost guaranteeing a hit with the BB versus less of a chance to hit with the second melee action (plus at 5th the proficiency bonus goes to 3 so DD ac rises to a min of 22). I feel I’d rather bet on the more constant damage than chance of missing half the damage but only if I can kite him at least 5 ft. This particular trade only lasts 2 rounds before the War Magic makes it no issue though since I can use BB and then another melee attack.
The main plan is to use ridiculous armor score to attempt to kite melee enemies to trigger the full damage of BB and see how it scales with level and other abilities. With using a familiar as help it should hit very often and with DD I should get hit not very often. Once it gets to higher levels I figure enemies will lean on magic and ranged attacks more often and the extra attacks per round might just work better tactics and math wise since if I can’t trick them into moving then it won’t trigger that extra damage. It’s not a big deal to drop to just full round attacks if I don’t think I can kite the enemy, like a wizard or something with primary ranged attacks. Since BB scales pretty well and DD also is based on proficiency bonus I feel like this sort of build might work for many levels. What are everyone else’s thoughts? Am I missing something here that makes this not work that well or does it just sound too gimmicky to be fun or functional?
I think your build hinges on [feat]defensive duelist[/feat] working in a way that it does not. Your AC is not 21, it is 19 and IF a melee attack is gonna hit you you can use your reaction to increase that AC. A reaction can be pretty important in combat, would you forgo attacks of opportunity to have defensive duelist ready? It also won't work on ranged attackers, which you mention but it is really important if your tactic is too withdraw. Then there is being attacked by either a multiattacker or multiple attackers. Sure this might give you the opportunity to pop defensive duelist but... I think your situation is pretty bleak. Especially if your opponent has pack tactics or just wants to flank you.
If I were your DM I would be designing encounters that challenge you, not ones that merely showcase one interesting method of combat.
I think crossbow should be your other bonded weapon. Perhaps duck around a corner cast minor illusion to create a crate of a rock that... looks like cover... what the DM thinks is up to the DM but the point being it's another tactic to employ you don't have to use defensive duelist just because it is there.
I haven't looked it up just this moment but, isn't find familiar not on the EK list?
Cheers
Edit, my bad find familiar is on the wizard list and EK uses the wizard list.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Something is only too gimmicky if it is A) too much hassle to run B) ruins other players enjoyment C) destroys everything with no retaliation possible, making adventuring actually just xp farming and thus making the challenge in challenge rating obsolete - which can take the fun out of the game. D) Your DM says it is and asks you to pick something else!
Alright, on with the choices. Nice that your thinking defensively and about mitigation, few do. Defensive duellist feat is alright, but wouldnt it be better to use your reaction on a shield spell? (its an eldritch knight approved choice after all and you cant use two reactions in one round) It would be a waste under the circumstances to have both unless you really think you will need that extra ac every round (but only against that one attack)
If your thinking about this, you might want to look into admantite armour rather than +X armour to prevent the inevitable bane of high AC, crits not only hitting but hitting so hard all your survival calculations are ruined.
Familiar summoning for advantage is as cheesey as it is apparently 'approved' ask your dm, before hand - its still cheese they might not want at the table.
If your not picking defensive duelist then what could be better for you? Well spell sniper could remove the need for you to carry a missile weapon (firebolt or chill touch are the usual choices taken) and increase your range with it. It would also allow you to remove the 16 in dex, put it into str (enabling all heavy armour for later without nasty penalties) lower dex to 10 and use the points elsewhere, hopefully to increase int for the spell hits
Sentinel will give you an alternative use for reactions and is especially useful if your not 'tank prime' or another friend is in the front line with you. If your ally next to you is attacked you get an extra attack per round - very nice at low levels.
Alternatively Heavy armour mastery - reduce damage from non magic physical by 3 - come on at first for a VH how much damage will this have absorbed by the time your even 3rd level? Lots. Add in a bladeward cantrip when hitting 3rd and when you run into a creature that will hit you every round even with your ac you can reduce your damage taken.
Hope that provides some thoughts, regardless of your choice enjoy your game!
if you are married to defensive duelist; whip might be a nifty flavour weapon. it won't deliver booming blade at 10 ft range due to 5ft range limit on the spell but, you can still use it at 5ft. also it is finesse, just a thought.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
@gigaflop: Nah, the build doesn't hinge on it because I am aware of how it works. I know it's only on a reaction action and therefore once a round. My plan was if I am going to intentionally initiate attacks of opportunity to trigger the BB effect then I should try to mitigate that as much as possible. And since DD only works against melee attacks and you can only use melee attacks on AoO (except enemies that have special features to use other attacks instead which are rare) then it works to defend against it every time. SO mostly only trigger the DD when I trigger AoO to mitigate the extra attacks incurred (rely on the main ac for the normal attacks like normal). The only issue is that is also the slot that Shield and Absorb Elements live. So it's going to be situational since if I think there maybe an incoming large attack then I can just not trigger it and wait for the incoming attack and pop Shield or AE. Frankly the EK does not have a lot of spell slots and they refill only on a long rest so using 1st level spells really need to be though out. Can't hide behind Shield for very long when I can only cast it 2-4 times a day (so max 4 rounds per day, for +5 when DD is +3 at 5lvl and matches it at 13lvl but only against melee). I was planning on taking Thunderwave 4th lvl to deal with the occasional pack and try to just position myself to avoid being surrounded with basic movement tactics and acrobatics. Ranged is the usual issues but other than just the usual try to get out of the way and let the party archer and wizard deal with it I'm not much different than the usual melee spec fighter. I looked into the whip and it is just overall lower damage. Then range is cool but would require a lot of feats to make the range trigger the cool effect of attacking with BB at 10ft as a creature moves toward me to put me way behind on damage for an even harder to use gimmick that has much less AC to handle it.
@Moondruidsneversleep Shield spell is great but at best I can use it 4 rounds per day since EK spells refill on a long rest. And as I write above eventually DD scales better, but also it's at no use penalty, so I can use it once per round every round. As far as armor goes, yea, but since I'm playing from level 1 onward it's going to be very DM dependent on what is available. The familiar has so many other uses for scouting, stealth, fun tricks, delivering spells very long distances, ect... that it's not a one trick owl so the DM would have a hard to time arguing against it. Besides if he doesn't like it he can just kill it every time (maybe even saving me an attack) and force me to summon a new one. And since EK don't have ritual casting I have to spend materials and time and a slot for the day to get another one so it's at a high penalty. Unless he lets me buy scrolls but if he doesn't like it I bet those scrolls will be hard to find. I looked into the damage outputs for using the cantrips with damage and they are all so low I'd rather let the team archer and wizard deal with ranged attacks while I fire a crossbow. I'm never going to do well with it and it would be at such a cut into close range damage I might as well be a Battle Master. I haven't looked into Sentinel or Heavy Armor Mastery really but that could be fun. I like the dex based build because it works well with the initiative bonus perks and the crossbow atk and dmg being basically the same as the the rapier. Also it helps with the acrobatics for dealing with situations where I might have to pull some battle movement if I get surrounded. Generally more lateral choices and perks imho.
But thanks for the feedback, it's exactly what I was looking for, a second look at it and discus issues that I may not see playtesting it in my head.