As EK, you get 2 1st-level spell slots at level 3 (which makes sense), but that goes up to 3 slots at level 4, not level 6. The pattern repeats, going up by the equivalent of one caster level at 7, 10, 13, &c., with the number of spell slots always matching for a caster with one-third the EK's level rounded up. But as soon as you become multiclass, that calculation is supposed to switch to rounding down. Like I said, that could be by design, but that feels like it goes against much of the philosophy on which e5 has been built. (The same holds true for ranger, paladin, and arcane trickster; EK is just the one where I noticed it.)
A multi-class EK/AT would be especially bad. EK4/AT4 would make you the equivalent of a level 2 caster (3 first-level spells), which is the same as either EK or AT solo at level 4.
Most of 5e's design theory is that everything rounds down. 1/3 casters like EK and AT are outliers, likely because rounding down would be considered overly punishing. Once you twist in other spell slots from MC, that overly punishing restriction is likely no longer in force, because you have other sources of "caster level" to determine your spell slots.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm thinking 2-4 lvls of Order of Scribes with the Wizard Ritual Caster feat and 16-17 levels of EK with War Caster and pole arm master feats....most likely 3 Wiz/17 EK. Add GWM at some point, do a ton of dmg and you have a ton of utility spells you can copy and cast a Rituals. Gets most bang for your bucks...ASI and class features. The final two features of EK extra attack at 19, you can get a 3rd BA attack with your pole arm master and 18th level feature you can also get with Pole Arm Master....assuming you get that high. My build will give you those features sooner. You get 2 action surges and 2 indomitable abilities.
Not necessarily. A wizard can only copy spells into their spellbook as appropriate for their wizard level. Meaning a 4th-level wizard can only know 1st and 2nd-level ritual spells. The feat allows them to go beyond.
I mean, I wouldn't do it. But that's how they work.
If you're already a wizard, the Ritual Caster (Wizard) feat is redundant.
There are a handful of 1st level rituals that aren't on the wizard list so the wizard can't learn them otherwise even if they come across them in scroll form or written down (ceremony, detect poison and disease, purify food and drink, speak with animals, etc.). And even if you take the rituals from the wizard list, that would still save 100 gold pieces (50 gold pieces per spell to copy into the spellbook) and save the trouble of tracking them down in game or selecting them with your limited learned spells at level up. I'm not sure it is worth it, but it isn't totally redundant.
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=========================== Laugh at life or life will laugh at you.
Current D&D Characters: Kromen Flintfist, Hill Dwarf Order of the Scribes Wizard/Armorer Artificer Eiphrok, Half-Orc Oath of Glory Paladin/Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer
A wizard with the Ritual Caster (Wizard) feat will not expand the list of ritual spells they know. You'd have to take Ritual Caster (Cleric), (Druid), or (Bard) for that.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'm thinking 2-4 lvls of Order of Scribes with the Wizard Ritual Caster feat and 16-17 levels of EK with War Caster and pole arm master feats....most likely 3 Wiz/17 EK. Add GWM at some point, do a ton of dmg and you have a ton of utility spells you can copy and cast a Rituals. Gets most bang for your bucks...ASI and class features. The final two features of EK extra attack at 19, you can get a 3rd BA attack with your pole arm master and 18th level feature you can also get with Pole Arm Master....assuming you get that high. My build will give you those features sooner. You get 2 action surges and 2 indomitable abilities.
Update I'm playing this char in an Avernus Campaign, figuring I'd get to 13-15th level by the end. Currently 4th EK with a Variant Feral Tiefling with wings...stats 14/14/14/14/10/10 with manual rolls and racial bonuses. Using Battle Axe and shield...wanted suggestions for feats for well balanced melee gish type...assuming 3 lvls of Wiz / 10-12 of EK by end of campaign. I'm definitely going to take Infernal Constitution but wondered about other suggested feats for melee / caster...of course war caster, ritual caster, shield master, and sentinel are under consideration..anyone have exp or suggestions?
A Eldritch Knight 7 Bladesinger 6 Multiclass might be interesting for you. By level 13 you can use the Bladesinger feature to attack and cast a cantrip like Booming Blade then make another attack with your bonus action through the Warmagic feature of the EK. You also get all the potential 3rd level wizard spells without the limitations of the EK.
This build will be even stronger if you are wielding a finesse weapon and using light armor to make use of the Bladesong feature.
A Eldritch Knight 7 Bladesinger 6 Multiclass might be interesting for you. By level 13 you can use the Bladesinger feature to attack and cast a cantrip like Booming Blade then make another attack with your bonus action through the Warmagic feature of the EK. You also get all the potential 3rd level wizard spells without the limitations of the EK.
This build will be even stronger if you are wielding a finesse weapon and using light armor to make use of the Bladesong feature.
That’s a really strong option. War Wizard is an interesting one that won’t have the limitations of Bladesong. Abjuration is also viable if you want to be really tanky.
A Eldritch Knight 7 Bladesinger 6 Multiclass might be interesting for you. By level 13 you can use the Bladesinger feature to attack and cast a cantrip like Booming Blade then make another attack with your bonus action through the Warmagic feature of the EK. You also get all the potential 3rd level wizard spells without the limitations of the EK.
This build will be even stronger if you are wielding a finesse weapon and using light armor to make use of the Bladesong feature.
Food for thought currently doing scale male and shield and a battle ax....but the 7/6 split is worthy to look at.
The EK and Bladesinger attack features don't work together. It says in the rules very clearly that extra attack features do not stack, and that you must choose one when attacking if multi classed. Meaning, you either pick EK feature or Bladesinger, not both.
The EK and Bladesinger attack features don't work together. It says in the rules very clearly that extra attack features do not stack, and that you must choose one when attacking if multi classed. Meaning, you either pick EK feature or Bladesinger, not both.
I think you are slightly confused. I never said stacking extra attack features. What I said was you use the Bladesingers extra attack option to attack once and cast a cantrip. The casting of the cantrip will trigger the EK's War Magic feature to allow you to make the extra attack with your bonus action.
No, I'm not confused at all. What I said is what I said, it would be you who is confused it seems.
" If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack."
As you can see, FEATURES aren't additive along with extra attacks.
If you cast a cantrip via Eks attack action, you cannot use BS feature to replace a cantrip since you are using the Eks Extra attack feature. You can't pick and mix as you see fit. You choose one of the extra attack features. So you can either A: Attack and replace or :B Cantrip and BA attack
To be clear, they still do not work together, that is what I'm saying. They. Do.Not.Work.
You keep thinking I'm talking about the extra attacks. I'm not talking about getting more attacks than 2, I'm literally saying WARMAGIC and THE BLADESINGER FEATURE at level 6, CANNOT be used together. You CANNOT replace an attack with a cantrip and then qualify for WARMAGIC. As stated earlier, EXTRA attack features DO NOT stack. Warmagic is an attack FEATURE of the EK. Replacement cantrip is a FEATURE of the BS. Therefore they cannot be used together.
I don't know how to be more clear to you to understand.
Yea I was gonna keep arguing but it ultimately depends on your DM. My DM never found the combo to be too overpowered so it was allowed at my table. Personally I don't feel its broken either since you need to be a lvl 13 with a 6/7 multiclass to pull it off. So yea I will just agree to disagree with you here buddy.
Just out of curiosity can you point me to an exact official ruling that states they cannot be used together?
PHB, page 164:
Extra Attack
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
I also agree that combining the two isn't that OP considering as a pure BS you could do much more damage with your BA by having much higher spell levels and slots. If in a AL setting though or a Dm going by the book, and ek bs can't use both features as much as a Paladin can't cast Wizard spells.
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I'm comparing PHB Eldritch Knight Spellcasting to PHB Multiclass Spellcaster .
As EK, you get 2 1st-level spell slots at level 3 (which makes sense), but that goes up to 3 slots at level 4, not level 6. The pattern repeats, going up by the equivalent of one caster level at 7, 10, 13, &c., with the number of spell slots always matching for a caster with one-third the EK's level rounded up. But as soon as you become multiclass, that calculation is supposed to switch to rounding down. Like I said, that could be by design, but that feels like it goes against much of the philosophy on which e5 has been built. (The same holds true for ranger, paladin, and arcane trickster; EK is just the one where I noticed it.)
A multi-class EK/AT would be especially bad. EK4/AT4 would make you the equivalent of a level 2 caster (3 first-level spells), which is the same as either EK or AT solo at level 4.
Most of 5e's design theory is that everything rounds down. 1/3 casters like EK and AT are outliers, likely because rounding down would be considered overly punishing. Once you twist in other spell slots from MC, that overly punishing restriction is likely no longer in force, because you have other sources of "caster level" to determine your spell slots.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I'm thinking 2-4 lvls of Order of Scribes with the Wizard Ritual Caster feat and 16-17 levels of EK with War Caster and pole arm master feats....most likely 3 Wiz/17 EK. Add GWM at some point, do a ton of dmg and you have a ton of utility spells you can copy and cast a Rituals. Gets most bang for your bucks...ASI and class features. The final two features of EK extra attack at 19, you can get a 3rd BA attack with your pole arm master and 18th level feature you can also get with Pole Arm Master....assuming you get that high. My build will give you those features sooner. You get 2 action surges and 2 indomitable abilities.
If you're already a wizard, the Ritual Caster (Wizard) feat is redundant.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Not necessarily. A wizard can only copy spells into their spellbook as appropriate for their wizard level. Meaning a 4th-level wizard can only know 1st and 2nd-level ritual spells. The feat allows them to go beyond.
I mean, I wouldn't do it. But that's how they work.
There are a handful of 1st level rituals that aren't on the wizard list so the wizard can't learn them otherwise even if they come across them in scroll form or written down (ceremony, detect poison and disease, purify food and drink, speak with animals, etc.). And even if you take the rituals from the wizard list, that would still save 100 gold pieces (50 gold pieces per spell to copy into the spellbook) and save the trouble of tracking them down in game or selecting them with your limited learned spells at level up. I'm not sure it is worth it, but it isn't totally redundant.
===========================
Laugh at life or life will laugh at you.
Current D&D Characters:
Kromen Flintfist, Hill Dwarf Order of the Scribes Wizard/Armorer Artificer
Eiphrok, Half-Orc Oath of Glory Paladin/Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer
A wizard with the Ritual Caster (Wizard) feat will not expand the list of ritual spells they know. You'd have to take Ritual Caster (Cleric), (Druid), or (Bard) for that.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Update I'm playing this char in an Avernus Campaign, figuring I'd get to 13-15th level by the end. Currently 4th EK with a Variant Feral Tiefling with wings...stats 14/14/14/14/10/10 with manual rolls and racial bonuses. Using Battle Axe and shield...wanted suggestions for feats for well balanced melee gish type...assuming 3 lvls of Wiz / 10-12 of EK by end of campaign. I'm definitely going to take Infernal Constitution but wondered about other suggested feats for melee / caster...of course war caster, ritual caster, shield master, and sentinel are under consideration..anyone have exp or suggestions?
A Eldritch Knight 7 Bladesinger 6 Multiclass might be interesting for you. By level 13 you can use the Bladesinger feature to attack and cast a cantrip like Booming Blade then make another attack with your bonus action through the Warmagic feature of the EK. You also get all the potential 3rd level wizard spells without the limitations of the EK.
This build will be even stronger if you are wielding a finesse weapon and using light armor to make use of the Bladesong feature.
That’s a really strong option. War Wizard is an interesting one that won’t have the limitations of Bladesong. Abjuration is also viable if you want to be really tanky.
Food for thought currently doing scale male and shield and a battle ax....but the 7/6 split is worthy to look at.
The EK and Bladesinger attack features don't work together. It says in the rules very clearly that extra attack features do not stack, and that you must choose one when attacking if multi classed. Meaning, you either pick EK feature or Bladesinger, not both.
I think you are slightly confused. I never said stacking extra attack features. What I said was you use the Bladesingers extra attack option to attack once and cast a cantrip. The casting of the cantrip will trigger the EK's War Magic feature to allow you to make the extra attack with your bonus action.
No, I'm not confused at all. What I said is what I said, it would be you who is confused it seems.
" If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack."
As you can see, FEATURES aren't additive along with extra attacks.
If you cast a cantrip via Eks attack action, you cannot use BS feature to replace a cantrip since you are using the Eks Extra attack feature. You can't pick and mix as you see fit. You choose one of the extra attack features. So you can either A: Attack and replace or :B Cantrip and BA attack
To be clear, they still do not work together, that is what I'm saying. They. Do.Not.Work.
You keep thinking I'm talking about the extra attacks. I'm not talking about getting more attacks than 2, I'm literally saying WARMAGIC and THE BLADESINGER FEATURE at level 6, CANNOT be used together. You CANNOT replace an attack with a cantrip and then qualify for WARMAGIC. As stated earlier, EXTRA attack features DO NOT stack. Warmagic is an attack FEATURE of the EK. Replacement cantrip is a FEATURE of the BS. Therefore they cannot be used together.
I don't know how to be more clear to you to understand.
Yea I was gonna keep arguing but it ultimately depends on your DM. My DM never found the combo to be too overpowered so it was allowed at my table. Personally I don't feel its broken either since you need to be a lvl 13 with a 6/7 multiclass to pull it off. So yea I will just agree to disagree with you here buddy.
Personally I don't care if your Dm allows it. It's their game and they can play it as they see fit.
By RAW I'm correct, which is my point.
Just out of curiosity can you point me to an exact official ruling that states they cannot be used together?
PHB, page 164:
I also agree that combining the two isn't that OP considering as a pure BS you could do much more damage with your BA by having much higher spell levels and slots. If in a AL setting though or a Dm going by the book, and ek bs can't use both features as much as a Paladin can't cast Wizard spells.