The title says it all can a Echo knight flank useing its echo? I'm on the side of saying yes, but would like there to be some penalty if the echo dies, like disadvantege on next attack.
Or let there be some feture to let ennemys see through the echo some how, and negate the flanking affect for the encounter of they spend a action to detect the echo.
That said given the abilitys of the Echo knight you don't really know who the attack is comeing from even if you know its not "real" so am a bit on the fence still but leaning towards alowing flanking.
If your campaign uses the optional flanking rules, then i would say yes. The echo is capable of delivering attacks, so that means it can be considered to be threatening. If you and your echo are positioned correctly, i don't see any problem with you both having the benefits of flanking your enemy.
The Echo Knight can allow their Echo to provide flanking BUT it comes at the cost of them no longer providing it in their location. I think this fits the overall vibe I get off the Archetype. It would allow them to provide flanking to an ally, but not to them selves.
Since this is a choice the Echo Knight would make on their turn, their Echo gaining the benefit from Flanking would also be determined at the same time. If the Echo has it, it can gain the benefits but the Knight PC looses both.
I wouldn't let it as Spiritual Weapon doesn't provide flanking. Also because it's a bonus action to get advantage on every melee attack on every turn with the only cost being a bonus and no resource and that doesn't fly with me at all.
If you're an Echo Knight in D&D, the magical echo you create is an image of yourself that occupies its space. It isn't a creature. If this translucent, gray image were meant to be a creature, the rule would say so. #DnD
Mercer's ruling makes sense to me. The echo isn't a creature unto itself, it's an extension of you. Plus, the idea of a greatsword-wielding Echo Knight with GWM being able to basically give themselves advantage on ALL their attacks could get ugly, especially if they also had Elven Accuracy. :)
Mercer's ruling makes sense to me. The echo isn't a creature unto itself, it's an extension of you. Plus, the idea of a greatsword-wielding Echo Knight with GWM being able to basically give themselves advantage on ALL their attacks could get ugly, especially if they also had Elven Accuracy. :)
Well if you were a hexblade warlock multiclassed with echo knight. Elven Accuracy doesn’t work on attack rolls using STR.
Why on earth would a Hexblade/Echo Knight be using STR to make attacks? Hexblade would use CHA. SAD always beats MAD and CHA is fine with Elven Accuracy.
Why on earth would a Hexblade/Echo Knight be using STR to make attacks? Hexblade would use CHA. SAD always beats MAD and CHA is fine with Elven Accuracy.
JD2319 talked about using GWM and Elven Accuracy with Echo Knight but those conflict as Elven Accuracy doesn't work with STR. I meant that if he multiclassed with Hexblade then it would be a viable build and wouldn't conflict. I guess I worded it poorly.
The echo is considered an object, so no you cannot flank with it. If you really want it, state your case to the dm. The echo being an object is a trade off. Since it’s not a creature, it can’t give flanking advantage. However, since it’s not a creature it can’t provoke opportunity attacks and is immune to auras and spells that don’t damage objects. Reach an enemy 45ft away without actually having to deal with auras or OA’s. I don’t think an echo knight should be directly in the fray so it could flank, the echoes should be doing the work and providing a way for the knight to escape if someone should get through to him/her.
your echo can not give people flanking. however. Can you give your own attack advantage by flanking with yourself.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space.
Does it work if you make an attack from your echo, who is in a flanking position. The atttack you make from the echo would get advantage because you are flanking the creature, in a sense the question is can you flank with yourself?
"If you're an Echo Knight in D&D, the magical echo you create is an image of yourself that occupies its space. It isn't a creature. If this translucent, gray image were meant to be a creature, the rule would say so. #DnD" - From Jeremy Crawford.
"Since the echo is a feature, and not an “ally” creature, technically it does not flank." - From Matt Mercer
I would say yes. If you are the one drawing the attention. In fact I built a EK/Swashbuckler Rouge. After some discussion with my DM would allow 2 sneak attacks in a round at lvl 5. I as the character would get into melee with an enemy summon echo behind enemy and attack getting sneak attack #1. Then echo retreats making one on one combat with main character which procs swashbuckler sneak attack.
I would say yes. If you are the one drawing the attention. In fact I built a EK/Swashbuckler Rouge. After some discussion with my DM would allow 2 sneak attacks in a round at lvl 5. I as the character would get into melee with an enemy summon echo behind enemy and attack getting sneak attack #1. Then echo retreats making one on one combat with main character which procs swashbuckler sneak attack.
The DM can allow what ever they like, but by RAW, you can't do this.
I would say yes. If you are the one drawing the attention. In fact I built a EK/Swashbuckler Rouge. After some discussion with my DM would allow 2 sneak attacks in a round at lvl 5. I as the character would get into melee with an enemy summon echo behind enemy and attack getting sneak attack #1. Then echo retreats making one on one combat with main character which procs swashbuckler sneak attack.
The DM can allow what ever they like, but by RAW, you can do this.
I think you meant “can’t do this.”
oops, typo
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The title says it all can a Echo knight flank useing its echo? I'm on the side of saying yes, but would like there to be some penalty if the echo dies, like disadvantege on next attack.
Or let there be some feture to let ennemys see through the echo some how, and negate the flanking affect for the encounter of they spend a action to detect the echo.
That said given the abilitys of the Echo knight you don't really know who the attack is comeing from even if you know its not "real" so am a bit on the fence still but leaning towards alowing flanking.
Thoughts?
Related. Does the Echo gain benefit from Flanking?
If your campaign uses the optional flanking rules, then i would say yes. The echo is capable of delivering attacks, so that means it can be considered to be threatening. If you and your echo are positioned correctly, i don't see any problem with you both having the benefits of flanking your enemy.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Considering that the Echo is not a creature, I would say that it does not qualify for the optional Flanking rules just like Spiritual Weapon.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
I'm curious on this too.
Not in public you can't!!!
;-)
As of now this is where I stand.
The Echo Knight can allow their Echo to provide flanking BUT it comes at the cost of them no longer providing it in their location. I think this fits the overall vibe I get off the Archetype. It would allow them to provide flanking to an ally, but not to them selves.
Since this is a choice the Echo Knight would make on their turn, their Echo gaining the benefit from Flanking would also be determined at the same time. If the Echo has it, it can gain the benefits but the Knight PC looses both.
I wouldn't let it as Spiritual Weapon doesn't provide flanking. Also because it's a bonus action to get advantage on every melee attack on every turn with the only cost being a bonus and no resource and that doesn't fly with me at all.
https://twitter.com/metaskie/status/1240058648493252616
Is it intended for an echo knight to gain flanking advantage from his manifest echo?
Since the echo is a feature, and not an “ally” creature, technically it does not flank.
Matt Mercer is enough of an authority on Wildemount stuff, but just in case you wanted another voice of agreement...
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Mercer's ruling makes sense to me. The echo isn't a creature unto itself, it's an extension of you. Plus, the idea of a greatsword-wielding Echo Knight with GWM being able to basically give themselves advantage on ALL their attacks could get ugly, especially if they also had Elven Accuracy. :)
Well if you were a hexblade warlock multiclassed with echo knight. Elven Accuracy doesn’t work on attack rolls using STR.
Your secret is safe with my indifference - Percy
Why on earth would a Hexblade/Echo Knight be using STR to make attacks? Hexblade would use CHA. SAD always beats MAD and CHA is fine with Elven Accuracy.
JD2319 talked about using GWM and Elven Accuracy with Echo Knight but those conflict as Elven Accuracy doesn't work with STR. I meant that if he multiclassed with Hexblade then it would be a viable build and wouldn't conflict. I guess I worded it poorly.
Your secret is safe with my indifference - Percy
The echo is considered an object, so no you cannot flank with it. If you really want it, state your case to the dm. The echo being an object is a trade off. Since it’s not a creature, it can’t give flanking advantage. However, since it’s not a creature it can’t provoke opportunity attacks and is immune to auras and spells that don’t damage objects. Reach an enemy 45ft away without actually having to deal with auras or OA’s. I don’t think an echo knight should be directly in the fray so it could flank, the echoes should be doing the work and providing a way for the knight to escape if someone should get through to him/her.
idk if this logic works but
your echo can not give people flanking. however. Can you give your own attack advantage by flanking with yourself.
Does it work if you make an attack from your echo, who is in a flanking position. The atttack you make from the echo would get advantage because you are flanking the creature, in a sense the question is can you flank with yourself?
"If you're an Echo Knight in D&D, the magical echo you create is an image of yourself that occupies its space. It isn't a creature. If this translucent, gray image were meant to be a creature, the rule would say so. #DnD" - From Jeremy Crawford.
"Since the echo is a feature, and not an “ally” creature, technically it does not flank." - From Matt Mercer
It does not get flanking or give flanking.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
I would say yes. If you are the one drawing the attention. In fact I built a EK/Swashbuckler Rouge. After some discussion with my DM would allow 2 sneak attacks in a round at lvl 5. I as the character would get into melee with an enemy summon echo behind enemy and attack getting sneak attack #1. Then echo retreats making one on one combat with main character which procs swashbuckler sneak attack.
The DM can allow what ever they like, but by RAW, you can't do this.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
oops, typo
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master