I´m thinking in a Barbarian/Echo Knight build and I have a doubt about grappling.
From my understanding an echo can make a grapple, since it is a special type of melee attack. I understand that the attack is done by my character, not the shadow, having a free hand.
My doubts starts with the lecture of grappled condition:
The attack occurs through the echo, but the grappler is my character, as long as the echo remains 5 feet from the grappled creature, can it be considered that it can maintain the grappled condition?
Assuming a yes answer, the shadow could now move 15 feet in any direction while grapping. If you decide to go up, keeping the grapple, could it go up in the air? Of course, I'm thinking in falling 3D6 damage per two turn of ascending when the grapple falls down :)
I would find it hard to imagine the echo grappling, and it is probably not part of the intent. As a DM, I probably wouldn’t allow it, but it is up to each DM.
In short, I think the echo is meant more to be similar to a ‘spiritual weapon’ style effect.
That said, I can imagine the primary character grappling, and then attacking the grappled creature via the echo, who’s hands are considered free and could use a two handed weapon.
Beyond the interpretations each DM makes at his table, I think there may be some RAW doubts about how these new abilities interact with everything that already exists.
In doing the FAQ, I realized my post above is probably wrong. An Echo should not be able to attack an creature grappled by the Knight using any attack that the Knight himself can’t do (for example, a two-handed strike). This is because an Echo is simply a ‘portal’ or ‘conduit’ for the Knight’s own attack action. If the Knight can’t attack because he doesn’t have hands free, neither can the Echo.
That said, it is a good question, can an Echo grapple or not. There are good arguments for both sides. But without getting too literal into the letter of the wordings, I’ll ask the question: what harm or balance issues would come from allowing a Knight to grapple an opponent ‘through’ an Echo? What abuse or confusion would it cause? And going with the idea that an Echo is just a conduit for the Knight’s attacks, would the Knight have to keep an hand occupied and have their own movement restricted if grappling ‘through’ an Echo? Oh the many questions it raises.
Outside of game mechanics, what do you think would be the most fun for all involved?
I like the interpretation of an Echo being just a conduit for the Knights' attacks. In other words, we can think of the Knight's reach being amplified through the echo, gaining the squares around it, wherever it is. Thinking that way, I like to allow grapple and shove through the echo, considering that all other requirements are met (the knight needs a free hand to grapple, sizing rules etc.).
I´m thinking the Knight engaging in melee with a foe and helping the wizard in the other side of the room, shoving at distance the creature is engaged with him and helping a retaliation spell attack with advantage (if initiatives are in the correct order xD).
However, in the case of grip, perhaps it would only allow the echo free move on the x-y axes; rising through z axis would load the weight of the creature caught in the Knight, maybe causing him to be encumbered. In a bridge or near to a window in a tower epic scenes could come out.
If the wordings accord echo would say "the reach of the knight is amplified with the eight squares around the echo for melee attacks and reactions" will solve all the questions around sentinel feat, reach weapons, reactions, warcaster etc. more easily than the actual redaction, without any abuse.
I would say that the way i interpret the echos abilities as written that it would absolutely be able to grapple as an attack action considering its a magical copy of your character and would have the same options to attack as your character. I think It has way more versatility than a spiritual wepon even outside of combat since it doesnt have time limit to being manifested sadly nothing specifies that it can interact with objects, but for example its nice to have ahead of the party in dungeons or possibly use it as a distraction. On the grapple fly up then fall damage part of OP it says the echo can move in any direction but i would say its limits in movement are identical to what directions your character would be able to move. i don't believe the echo floats or anything like the spiritual wepon does. Although if your character has a fly speed from racial trait or equipped item that grants fly speed then id say absolutely the echo is a copy of the character including the weapons, equipment, and items on your immediate person that would pertain to combat that apply to the echos abilities. so the grapple fly up and drop strat would work in my opinion under those circumstances, but not if flight is on your character from a spell, potion or other outside sources that haven't been specifically used on the echo that is currently manifested. the echo i would say couldn't use potions while its to some degree physical its not alive, but I'd say it could be targeted by a spell to let it fly the same way your character could be targeted.
I´m thinking in a Barbarian/Echo Knight build and I have a doubt about grappling.
From my understanding an echo can make a grapple, since it is a special type of melee attack. I understand that the attack is done by my character, not the shadow, having a free hand.
My doubts starts with the lecture of grappled condition:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions#Grappled => The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
The attack occurs through the echo, but the grappler is my character, as long as the echo remains 5 feet from the grappled creature, can it be considered that it can maintain the grappled condition?
Assuming a yes answer, the shadow could now move 15 feet in any direction while grapping. If you decide to go up, keeping the grapple, could it go up in the air? Of course, I'm thinking in falling 3D6 damage per two turn of ascending when the grapple falls down :)
Thak you very much in advance!
Edited for correction
Because the Echo is an object, I would allow you to Grapple through it once, but I wouldn't allow the Echo to move with a Grappled opponent.
I would find it hard to imagine the echo grappling, and it is probably not part of the intent. As a DM, I probably wouldn’t allow it, but it is up to each DM.
In short, I think the echo is meant more to be similar to a ‘spiritual weapon’ style effect.
That said, I can imagine the primary character grappling, and then attacking the grappled creature via the echo, who’s hands are considered free and could use a two handed weapon.
Beyond the interpretations each DM makes at his table, I think there may be some RAW doubts about how these new abilities interact with everything that already exists.
And I love the work you've stuck to try to clarify in this post: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/64918-an-echo-knight-faq-frequently-asked-questions
:D
Many thanks Khorecs.
In doing the FAQ, I realized my post above is probably wrong. An Echo should not be able to attack an creature grappled by the Knight using any attack that the Knight himself can’t do (for example, a two-handed strike). This is because an Echo is simply a ‘portal’ or ‘conduit’ for the Knight’s own attack action. If the Knight can’t attack because he doesn’t have hands free, neither can the Echo.
That said, it is a good question, can an Echo grapple or not. There are good arguments for both sides. But without getting too literal into the letter of the wordings, I’ll ask the question: what harm or balance issues would come from allowing a Knight to grapple an opponent ‘through’ an Echo? What abuse or confusion would it cause? And going with the idea that an Echo is just a conduit for the Knight’s attacks, would the Knight have to keep an hand occupied and have their own movement restricted if grappling ‘through’ an Echo? Oh the many questions it raises.
Outside of game mechanics, what do you think would be the most fun for all involved?
I like the interpretation of an Echo being just a conduit for the Knights' attacks. In other words, we can think of the Knight's reach being amplified through the echo, gaining the squares around it, wherever it is. Thinking that way, I like to allow grapple and shove through the echo, considering that all other requirements are met (the knight needs a free hand to grapple, sizing rules etc.).
I´m thinking the Knight engaging in melee with a foe and helping the wizard in the other side of the room, shoving at distance the creature is engaged with him and helping a retaliation spell attack with advantage (if initiatives are in the correct order xD).
However, in the case of grip, perhaps it would only allow the echo free move on the x-y axes; rising through z axis would load the weight of the creature caught in the Knight, maybe causing him to be encumbered. In a bridge or near to a window in a tower epic scenes could come out.
If the wordings accord echo would say "the reach of the knight is amplified with the eight squares around the echo for melee attacks and reactions" will solve all the questions around sentinel feat, reach weapons, reactions, warcaster etc. more easily than the actual redaction, without any abuse.
Captain hindsight strikes again!!! xDDD
I would say that the way i interpret the echos abilities as written that it would absolutely be able to grapple as an attack action considering its a magical copy of your character and would have the same options to attack as your character. I think It has way more versatility than a spiritual wepon even outside of combat since it doesnt have time limit to being manifested sadly nothing specifies that it can interact with objects, but for example its nice to have ahead of the party in dungeons or possibly use it as a distraction. On the grapple fly up then fall damage part of OP it says the echo can move in any direction but i would say its limits in movement are identical to what directions your character would be able to move. i don't believe the echo floats or anything like the spiritual wepon does. Although if your character has a fly speed from racial trait or equipped item that grants fly speed then id say absolutely the echo is a copy of the character including the weapons, equipment, and items on your immediate person that would pertain to combat that apply to the echos abilities. so the grapple fly up and drop strat would work in my opinion under those circumstances, but not if flight is on your character from a spell, potion or other outside sources that haven't been specifically used on the echo that is currently manifested. the echo i would say couldn't use potions while its to some degree physical its not alive, but I'd say it could be targeted by a spell to let it fly the same way your character could be targeted.