I have a question that I just thought of today. If creatures with dark vision can only see the color gray when in a dark area would that make the echo invisible practically since it is a gray translucent figure?
RAW no... but I see your point...
I agree with Devan. Raw is no. That would be DM fiat, if it happened. So make your case and maybe the DM will agree with you? :)
It cuts both ways, really. If an enemy with Darkvision can't see the Echo, then neither can the fighter. Neither can any of their teammates.
Which means depriving the fighter of their subclass-defining feature in darkness.
Which is just not going to happen.
I would argue the player knows where they put the Echo. But I agree this is DM fiat that is likely not going to happen.
Besides giving the Echo adv on attacks and DIS on attacks to the Echo (which is a big deal I agree) it wouldn't affect the fighter too much...
The ability says:
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
You can heighten your echo’s fury. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can make one additional melee attack from the echo’s position.
Neither of these require you to see the Echo..****y that you can see your enemy. So really it would be a buff to the fighter as the Echo would be harder to hit and hit harder in the dark.
I have a question that I just thought of today. If creatures with dark vision can only see the color gray when in a dark area would that make the echo invisible practically since it is a gray translucent figure?
I have a question that I just thought of today. If creatures with dark vision can only see the color gray when in a dark area would that make the echo invisible practically since it is a gray translucent figure?
RAW no... but I see your point...
I agree with Devan. Raw is no. That would be DM fiat, if it happened. So make your case and maybe the DM will agree with you? :)
It cuts both ways, really. If an enemy with Darkvision can't see the Echo, then neither can the fighter. Neither can any of their teammates.
Which means depriving the fighter of their subclass-defining feature in darkness.
Which is just not going to happen.
Unless you're a Fire Genasi who sees in shades of red instead, which negates the issue (from a DM Fiat perspective)
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I have a question that I just thought of today. If creatures with dark vision can only see the color gray when in a dark area would that make the echo invisible practically since it is a gray translucent figure?
RAW no... but I see your point...
I agree with Devan. Raw is no. That would be DM fiat, if it happened. So make your case and maybe the DM will agree with you? :)
It cuts both ways, really. If an enemy with Darkvision can't see the Echo, then neither can the fighter. Neither can any of their teammates.
Which means depriving the fighter of their subclass-defining feature in darkness.
Which is just not going to happen.
Unless you're a Fire Genasi who sees in shades of red instead, which negates the issue (from a DM Fiat perspective)
What an obscure way to fix that situation...but I love it!
I think you'd be able to switch places with your echo up to 1,000 feet away once you get the Echo Avatar ability. Since it states that there is no action required to end the effect, and an Echo is destroyed at the END of the Knight's turn, you could end the Avatar effect, then teleport immediately as a bonus action on the same turn before your Echo goes away. I believe this gets around the issue of not being able to teleport using your Echo Avatar.
RAW, there's nothing stopping this, but it's not intended. The echo should poof as soon as your consciousness leaves it. Avatar is intended as a scouting thing only.
The intent is that you can't do anything with the Echo Knight's echo while using Echo Avatar, other than scout with it. The text stating that intent is mysteriously missing from the book. We'll fix it in a future printing! Sorry about the confusion. #DnD
We'll need to wait and see what the future printing will say. Because currently, dropping it as a free action and using a bonus action to swap places does get around having it up. If they decide that it disappears immediately when you finish using Echo Avatar, then it won't work. If it still follows the "end of your turn" rule, then it should still work.
We'll need to wait and see what the future printing will say. Because currently, dropping it as a free action and using a bonus action to swap places does get around having it up. If they decide that it disappears immediately when you finish using Echo Avatar, then it won't work. If it still follows the "end of your turn" rule, then it should still work.
The breakdown of what is an Action or Bonus Action only applies to combat; where that actually matters. There are no turns outside of combat, so the restriction on it ending at the end of the echo knight's turn is meaningless.
It's a scouting feature, not a long-range teleport. Let it go.
We'll need to wait and see what the future printing will say. Because currently, dropping it as a free action and using a bonus action to swap places does get around having it up. If they decide that it disappears immediately when you finish using Echo Avatar, then it won't work. If it still follows the "end of your turn" rule, then it should still work.
The breakdown of what is an Action or Bonus Action only applies to combat; where that actually matters. There are no turns outside of combat, so the restriction on it ending at the end of the echo knight's turn is meaningless.
It's a scouting feature, not a long-range teleport. Let it go.
I agree with the 2nd part of this. Although given this issue comes from a misprint in the published RAW, we should try to stay understanding of players who read that misprint and, instead of rolling with it like most people probably are, decide to take it upon themselves to check into it, possibly expecting that their character will be able to teleport up to 1,000 feet away.
I want to respond to the 1st part of your comment to say that, although I get why you went with this explaination, using initiative order outside of combat is a perfectly fine way to keep track of who does what in a very short time frame. Had this approach work out really well in a session earlier this week. This is obviously subjective to every game group. I'm just offering a different perspective.
IMO, we should continue to understand that this is a misprint in the RAW and our efforts to inform confused or curious players on this issue should consist of relating that misprinted info.
Question for y'all: if it's a magical "object", what does that make it for the purposes of magical disintegration, i.e. The Disintegrate Spell (and possibly the Dark Star and Ravenous Void spells as well).
If it's a "creation of magical force", then it's toast. And lots of DMs are confronted with whether things like Spiritual Weapon are technical "creations of magical force", so I suppose this touches on folks' interpretation for that ruling. But if it's considered a magical ITEM, or similar to an illusion, then it's technically untargetable and undamageable by the spells.
As it is not a creature, could it technically float unperturbed through the Dark Star spell and whack (or shoot, as the case may be) the channeling spell caster on the other side? For Ravenous Void, while it's not a creature, is it technically an "unsecured object", and still pulled to the center of the Void at the start of the caster's turn, or does it similarly have free rein to go a-caster-whacking? The interactions with THESE spells can't have been unthought of, considering they all sprung from the same campaign. Is this thing made of dunamis thus immune to literally every other dunamis manipulating power provided in that book? Heck, it seems like it can't even be targeted by Immovable Object if it's more than 10 lbs (i.e. weighs the same as the Echo Knight).
An interesting counter to chronomages and gravimages, if so, even at their highest levels.
Question for y'all: if it's a magical "object", what does that make it for the purposes of magical disintegration, i.e. The Disintegrate Spell (and possibly the Dark Star and Ravenous Void spells as well).
If it's a "creation of magical force", then it's toast. And lots of DMs are confronted with whether things like Spiritual Weapon are technical "creations of magical force", so I suppose this touches on folks' interpretation for that ruling. But if it's considered a magical ITEM, or similar to an illusion, then it's technically untargetable and undamageable by the spells.
As it is not a creature, could it technically float unperturbed through the Dark Star spell and whack (or shoot, as the case may be) the channeling spell caster on the other side? For Ravenous Void, while it's not a creature, is it technically an "unsecured object", and still pulled to the center of the Void at the start of the caster's turn, or does it similarly have free rein to go a-caster-whacking? The interactions with THESE spells can't have been unthought of, considering they all sprung from the same campaign. Is this thing made of dunamis thus immune to literally every other dunamis manipulating power provided in that book? Heck, it seems like it can't even be targeted by Immovable Object if it's more than 10 lbs (i.e. weighs the same as the Echo Knight).
An interesting counter to chronomages and gravimages, if so, even at their highest levels.
It's probably intended to serve as a counter to them.
Since the echo isn't a creature, it's not affected by anything which only targets or affects creatures. Because of how the spell is worded, Dark Star simple will not affect it. And depending on how your DM rules, the echo might be an unsecured object and thus subjects to the pull of Ravenous Void. But it's an object, not a creature, so it isn't affected by the damage. And it's immune to being Restrained. That said, it can still make saving throws. A DM might decide to blur the lines and let it resist certain effects. But it is immune to the damage.
When it comes to Disintegrate, the echo would probably be destroyed. It's a magical object, but not a magical item, and the spell would destroy a 10-foot section of a Wall of Force. But it's a waste of a 6th-level spell slot for an object with only 1 hit point that can be conjured back into existence, as a bonus action, ad infinitum.
Can we cast booming blade through the echo if you have a warcaster feat?
There've been debates, but I personally say yes because the reaction that the echo triggers for you is called "an opportunity attack," and war caster lets you replace the opportunity attack with a spellcast instead.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Can we cast booming blade through the echo if you have a warcaster feat?
There've been debates, but I personally say yes because the reaction that the echo triggers for you is called "an opportunity attack," and war caster lets you replace the opportunity attack with a spellcast instead.
I don't think it breaks anything to allow this, but RAW I don't think this works.
When you cast booming blade, you serve as the point of origin for the spell. To allow this, you'd have to change the point of origin for the spell from the spellcaster to their echo. And I'm not sure that's allowed.
Can we cast booming blade through the echo if you have a warcaster feat?
There've been debates, but I personally say yes because the reaction that the echo triggers for you is called "an opportunity attack," and war caster lets you replace the opportunity attack with a spellcast instead.
I don't think it breaks anything to allow this, but RAW I don't think this works.
When you cast booming blade, you serve as the point of origin for the spell. To allow this, you'd have to change the point of origin for the spell from the spellcaster to their echo. And I'm not sure that's allowed.
And this is where the debate is. I rule it as okay because you're explicitly replacing the Opportunity Attack, but others may rule it differently. I *think* the strictly RAW is you can't, but I find that kinda dumb and defeating of the point of the echo a tad.
...funny how this is one of those hills where I die not on the RAW side.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Can we cast booming blade through the echo if you have a warcaster feat?
There've been debates, but I personally say yes because the reaction that the echo triggers for you is called "an opportunity attack," and war caster lets you replace the opportunity attack with a spellcast instead.
I don't think it breaks anything to allow this, but RAW I don't think this works.
When you cast booming blade, you serve as the point of origin for the spell. To allow this, you'd have to change the point of origin for the spell from the spellcaster to their echo. And I'm not sure that's allowed.
And this is where the debate is. I rule it as okay because you're explicitly replacing the Opportunity Attack, but others may rule it differently. I *think* the strictly RAW is you can't, but I find that kinda dumb and defeating of the point of the echo a tad.
...funny how this is one of those hills where I die not on the RAW side.
I mean, rule of cool, I'd allow it. Instead of making an opportunity attack as if you were in the echo's space, you're casting a spell as if you were in the echo's space. As I said, I don't think it breaks anything.
But I'm also sick and tired of people multiclassing or trying to pick up feats for the same repetitive nonsense over and over again. Is it a potent combination? Yes. Is it cookie-cutter? Also yes. Is it really worth picking up War Caster just for one cantrip? I sure as heck don't think so.
Can we cast booming blade through the echo if you have a warcaster feat?
There've been debates, but I personally say yes because the reaction that the echo triggers for you is called "an opportunity attack," and war caster lets you replace the opportunity attack with a spellcast instead.
I don't think it breaks anything to allow this, but RAW I don't think this works.
When you cast booming blade, you serve as the point of origin for the spell. To allow this, you'd have to change the point of origin for the spell from the spellcaster to their echo. And I'm not sure that's allowed.
And this is where the debate is. I rule it as okay because you're explicitly replacing the Opportunity Attack, but others may rule it differently. I *think* the strictly RAW is you can't, but I find that kinda dumb and defeating of the point of the echo a tad.
...funny how this is one of those hills where I die not on the RAW side.
I mean, rule of cool, I'd allow it. Instead of making an opportunity attack as if you were in the echo's space, you're casting a spell as if you were in the echo's space. As I said, I don't think it breaks anything.
But I'm also sick and tired of people multiclassing or trying to pick up feats for the same repetitive nonsense over and over again. Is it a potent combination? Yes. Is it cookie-cutter? Also yes. Is it really worth picking up War Caster just for one cantrip? I sure as heck don't think so.
Touche, and very valid.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
the adv. on concentration component of Warcaster is also beneficial if you are multi-classing for spells.
Echo Knight/Divine Soul Sorcerer is a great combo for flexibility both in melee (with the echo) and spellcasting utility (bless, bane, counterspell, haste, blink, etc.)
I'm kinda new to Dnd so the thing you said about being repetitive are all new to me and quite enjoyable as of the time of writing. The reason I asked because I made a echo knight 3/wizard X. I wanted a tanky wizard and looked for a good fighter subclass and stumbled upon echo knight.
What I wanted initially was to make the echo just a meat shield for melee enemies before they could reach my wizard. Then what happened was enemies are ignoring my echo because its attack of opportunity don't have enough damage. So then I searched if I could activate booming blade as I already have warcaster to add more damage and they wouldn't ignore my echo anymore.
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I would argue the player knows where they put the Echo. But I agree this is DM fiat that is likely not going to happen.
Besides giving the Echo adv on attacks and DIS on attacks to the Echo (which is a big deal I agree) it wouldn't affect the fighter too much...
The ability says:
Neither of these require you to see the Echo..****y that you can see your enemy. So really it would be a buff to the fighter as the Echo would be harder to hit and hit harder in the dark.
No, because there are at least 50 shades of grey.
Unless you're a Fire Genasi who sees in shades of red instead, which negates the issue (from a DM Fiat perspective)
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
What an obscure way to fix that situation...but I love it!
I think you'd be able to switch places with your echo up to 1,000 feet away once you get the Echo Avatar ability. Since it states that there is no action required to end the effect, and an Echo is destroyed at the END of the Knight's turn, you could end the Avatar effect, then teleport immediately as a bonus action on the same turn before your Echo goes away. I believe this gets around the issue of not being able to teleport using your Echo Avatar.
RAW, there's nothing stopping this, but it's not intended. The echo should poof as soon as your consciousness leaves it. Avatar is intended as a scouting thing only.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242199682534608896?s=19
The intent is that you can't do anything with the Echo Knight's echo while using Echo Avatar, other than scout with it. The text stating that intent is mysteriously missing from the book. We'll fix it in a future printing! Sorry about the confusion. #DnD
We'll need to wait and see what the future printing will say. Because currently, dropping it as a free action and using a bonus action to swap places does get around having it up. If they decide that it disappears immediately when you finish using Echo Avatar, then it won't work. If it still follows the "end of your turn" rule, then it should still work.
The breakdown of what is an Action or Bonus Action only applies to combat; where that actually matters. There are no turns outside of combat, so the restriction on it ending at the end of the echo knight's turn is meaningless.
It's a scouting feature, not a long-range teleport. Let it go.
I agree with the 2nd part of this. Although given this issue comes from a misprint in the published RAW, we should try to stay understanding of players who read that misprint and, instead of rolling with it like most people probably are, decide to take it upon themselves to check into it, possibly expecting that their character will be able to teleport up to 1,000 feet away.
I want to respond to the 1st part of your comment to say that, although I get why you went with this explaination, using initiative order outside of combat is a perfectly fine way to keep track of who does what in a very short time frame. Had this approach work out really well in a session earlier this week. This is obviously subjective to every game group. I'm just offering a different perspective.
IMO, we should continue to understand that this is a misprint in the RAW and our efforts to inform confused or curious players on this issue should consist of relating that misprinted info.
Question for y'all: if it's a magical "object", what does that make it for the purposes of magical disintegration, i.e. The Disintegrate Spell (and possibly the Dark Star and Ravenous Void spells as well).
If it's a "creation of magical force", then it's toast. And lots of DMs are confronted with whether things like Spiritual Weapon are technical "creations of magical force", so I suppose this touches on folks' interpretation for that ruling. But if it's considered a magical ITEM, or similar to an illusion, then it's technically untargetable and undamageable by the spells.
As it is not a creature, could it technically float unperturbed through the Dark Star spell and whack (or shoot, as the case may be) the channeling spell caster on the other side? For Ravenous Void, while it's not a creature, is it technically an "unsecured object", and still pulled to the center of the Void at the start of the caster's turn, or does it similarly have free rein to go a-caster-whacking? The interactions with THESE spells can't have been unthought of, considering they all sprung from the same campaign. Is this thing made of dunamis thus immune to literally every other dunamis manipulating power provided in that book? Heck, it seems like it can't even be targeted by Immovable Object if it's more than 10 lbs (i.e. weighs the same as the Echo Knight).
An interesting counter to chronomages and gravimages, if so, even at their highest levels.
It's probably intended to serve as a counter to them.
Since the echo isn't a creature, it's not affected by anything which only targets or affects creatures. Because of how the spell is worded, Dark Star simple will not affect it. And depending on how your DM rules, the echo might be an unsecured object and thus subjects to the pull of Ravenous Void. But it's an object, not a creature, so it isn't affected by the damage. And it's immune to being Restrained. That said, it can still make saving throws. A DM might decide to blur the lines and let it resist certain effects. But it is immune to the damage.
When it comes to Disintegrate, the echo would probably be destroyed. It's a magical object, but not a magical item, and the spell would destroy a 10-foot section of a Wall of Force. But it's a waste of a 6th-level spell slot for an object with only 1 hit point that can be conjured back into existence, as a bonus action, ad infinitum.
Can we cast booming blade through the echo if you have a warcaster feat?
There've been debates, but I personally say yes because the reaction that the echo triggers for you is called "an opportunity attack," and war caster lets you replace the opportunity attack with a spellcast instead.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I don't think it breaks anything to allow this, but RAW I don't think this works.
When you cast booming blade, you serve as the point of origin for the spell. To allow this, you'd have to change the point of origin for the spell from the spellcaster to their echo. And I'm not sure that's allowed.
And this is where the debate is. I rule it as okay because you're explicitly replacing the Opportunity Attack, but others may rule it differently. I *think* the strictly RAW is you can't, but I find that kinda dumb and defeating of the point of the echo a tad.
...funny how this is one of those hills where I die not on the RAW side.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I mean, rule of cool, I'd allow it. Instead of making an opportunity attack as if you were in the echo's space, you're casting a spell as if you were in the echo's space. As I said, I don't think it breaks anything.
But I'm also sick and tired of people multiclassing or trying to pick up feats for the same repetitive nonsense over and over again. Is it a potent combination? Yes. Is it cookie-cutter? Also yes. Is it really worth picking up War Caster just for one cantrip? I sure as heck don't think so.
Touche, and very valid.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
the adv. on concentration component of Warcaster is also beneficial if you are multi-classing for spells.
Echo Knight/Divine Soul Sorcerer is a great combo for flexibility both in melee (with the echo) and spellcasting utility (bless, bane, counterspell, haste, blink, etc.)
I'm kinda new to Dnd so the thing you said about being repetitive are all new to me and quite enjoyable as of the time of writing. The reason I asked because I made a echo knight 3/wizard X. I wanted a tanky wizard and looked for a good fighter subclass and stumbled upon echo knight.
What I wanted initially was to make the echo just a meat shield for melee enemies before they could reach my wizard. Then what happened was enemies are ignoring my echo because its attack of opportunity don't have enough damage. So then I searched if I could activate booming blade as I already have warcaster to add more damage and they wouldn't ignore my echo anymore.