These are the two questions from the start of this thread that can give some insight into your question. Can't change the numbers here, but they are actually #12 & 13 from the Attack section.
Q: Can a Knight attack a creature through his Echo if only the Echo has line-of-sight to that creature? Is there any penalty if the Knight can’t see the target? A: No by RAW, because the Echo has no "senses" without you using the level 7 ability. Thus an Echo cannot help a Knight see her target. (thanks @LeviRocks)
Q: If a creature has obscurement or cover from the Knight, but the Echo has a clear line-of-sight, is there any penalty to the attack if it originates from the Echo? A: No, because the attack would originate from a position that wouldn't have the cover. (thanks @LeviRocks)
Pretty much the echo is an object and does not have any senses, so it cannot be blinded. If the Fighter cannot see the enemy at all, then it can't attack it. Even if right in front of the Echo. The only time the Fighter can see through the Echo is using the 7th level Echo Avatar ability. Using the Echo sort of like a wizard's familiar you can see and hear through it up to 1000' away. But you cannot attack through it while using this ability.
My DM has been kind to me though. I chose Blind Fighting as my PC's Fighting Style. And he's allowed it to work when the echo was in darkness and not the Fighter. But RAW, it should not work.
A lot of these things can be DM dependent, but the word "you" (as in, the Knight themselves) does a lot of the heavy lifting in many of the Echo Knight features. Specific to the teleport switch, and taking a party member along with you, by RAW the rule reads as:
" As a bonus action you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 ft. of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you. "
To me, as per RAW, this clearly implies that the switch is solely between yourself, and your Echo.
That said, an unconscious party member is technically an object, if memory serves. So, I could probably be convinced to allow it in a particularly relevant or dramatic moment; despite going against my own reading of RAW.
For RAI, your own mileage may vary depending on your particular DM and table, though I would argue that any DM would be quite generous to allow it. Even if the feature itself doesn't explicitly preclude the carrying of a human-sized object, for RAI, the Echo Knight's Echo/Teleport feature seems to share more similarities with spells like Misty Step, rather than say, Dimension Door.
EDIT: Elaborated on previous detail and added Beyond reference to feature quote.
Another scenario maybe covered sorry if I missed it.
A party member was down, I picked them up and then did the switch teleport. I could not see anywhere saying you can't do this?
The definition of teleportation in the 2024 Player's Handbook says that "if you're touching another creature when you teleport, that creature doesn't teleport with you unless the teleportation effect says otherwise", so it doesn't work under 2024 rules as written.
The 2014 rules lack a detailed definition of teleportation like this, but the fact that some teleportation effects (e.g. Dimension Door) explicitly say you can bring someone else along with you argues that that's not allowed with effects that don't explicitly say it is.
This may have been answered earlier but I didn't see it so...
Can the echo move in any way if the fighter doesn't command it to do so?
Also, if the fighter knows Common Sign Language from 2024 rules, could the fighter instruct their echo use it too?
If the answer is yes to both of those questions, here's another:
Can the echo communicate its own opinions/thoughts/observations through Common Sign Language?
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Hi! I am Potato. I am an experienced player and Dungeon Master using 2014 5th edition D&D, and I'm learning my way around 2024 5th edition. I am always happy to help with D&D issues for both players and DMs alike!
My pronouns are they/them; I'm a gayroace* femboy who isn't out of the closet yet...but it's kind of a transparent closet.
This may have been answered earlier but I didn't see it so...
Can the echo move in any way if the fighter doesn't command it to do so?
Also, if the fighter knows Common Sign Language from 2024 rules, could the fighter instruct their echo use it too?
If the answer is yes to both of those questions, here's another:
Can the echo communicate its own opinions/thoughts/observations through Common Sign Language?
I would say no to moving without command from the fighter, and communicating opinions. It is not an entity in itself, it is a "shadow", a remnant of possible version of yourself. It can only do attacks, and the attacks are from the fighter.
This may have been answered earlier but I didn't see it so...
Can the echo move in any way if the fighter doesn't command it to do so?
Also, if the fighter knows Common Sign Language from 2024 rules, could the fighter instruct their echo use it too?
If the answer is yes to both of those questions, here's another:
Can the echo communicate its own opinions/thoughts/observations through Common Sign Language?
What an interesting idea to use your echo for communication or allowing it to communicate or move as an independent entity As SlowestCat mentioned, this isn’t supposed by RAW. But this is certainly something you should discuss with your DM I’ve had a number of ideas for “Echos” that where similar.
For example, one concept I had was that the echo was actually my knight’s figurative shadow, their darker half. It had its own mind and would sometimes move about while my knight was asleep. Or act on its own in combat, such as choosing to kill its target instead of sparring the enemy as the knight wished. But this can all be done through roleplaying, while still keeping within the rules. I could say the echo is moving of its own accord against the knights will, but it is still using the knights action/turn to do it. If you do wish to give it a degree of independence, I would just suggest that it shouldn’t give you added advantaged in combat. Or you could even give control to the DM if it moved or acted independently as if it were half an NPC. Ultimately this would of course be a call for your DM. But I do love your creativity thinking.
I personally think the rules are primarily there for balance, but roleplaying-wise you can flavor them however you want and think outside the box description.
This may have been answered earlier but I didn't see it so...
Can the echo move in any way if the fighter doesn't command it to do so?
Also, if the fighter knows Common Sign Language from 2024 rules, could the fighter instruct their echo use it too?
If the answer is yes to both of those questions, here's another:
Can the echo communicate its own opinions/thoughts/observations through Common Sign Language?
RAW, absolutely not. The echo is a magical object. It has no actions, movements, nor abilities of it's own.
Rule of Cool or DM decision, you can technically do as you wish. Moving on it's own could be interesting as The_Humble_Giant has stated. But I think that gives it too much freedom. It speaking on it's own out of combat via sign language could be great RP.
I'm playing a Goliath Barb/Fighter echo knight. His twin brother died in front of him wearing a ring of Mind Shielding given to them by a shadowy figure. The ring was meant to help make him better than his brother. At least that's what the figure told him, to give it to his brother and he would no longer be better than him. So he did. The next day, his brother died running off alone to fight some monster they heard attacking people in the woods. By the time my guy got there, brother was in half on the ground and the creature gone. He took the ring back and put it on, then crashed and slept on the ground by his dead brother.
Next morning, creepy guy was there as he woke. Talking about "it worked". He picked up his dead brother's axe, swung it and the guy fell in half too. But it was the echo that killed the guy 20 feet away. Now his brother's soul is stuck in the Ring of Mind Shielding, is the source of his echo, the ring went invisible on it's own, and he can't take it off. But he can hear his brother.
Also, we're in Tryanny of Dragons and my guy got Hazirawn, a neutral evil sentient sword. So he's got the voice of good in his head as his brother, and a voice of evil in the sword. Two opposing views in his head at all times. RP shenanigans are fun. I mostly let him make faces with the echo to reflect his emotions. It was also a way to give the other players some indication it wasn't JUST a shadow, nor was it him. Even if it looks just like him cause, you know, twins.
RAW, nothing in the text of Echo Knight describes the echo as a magical object, and the general rules for objects in the PH'14 don't apply. There wasn't a definition, so we relied on an interpretation issued by Jeremy Crawford.
Since the Rules Glossary was added, we can safely call it an object.
In my understanding a target includes a creature and an object which the Echo is (see this thread). Unless target is defined in the rules somewhere…
What do you think please?
PS: Tactically it might be useless. Though Protection DnD2024 would be better because the effect lasts much longer. If the echo was next to a monster and the knight next to the echo, then the monster could walk around the echo in order to attack the knight. This would make the echo useless. Instead it is more advantageous to place the echo next to a monster and the knight more than 10ft away. This binds the monster (loosing at least one attack or granting the echo an opportunity attack) and lets the knight use PAM ReactiveStrike etc.
In my understanding a target includes a creature and an object which the Echo is (see this thread). Unless target is defined in the rules somewhere…
What do you think please?
PS: Tactically it might be useless. Though Protection DnD2024 would be better because the effect lasts much longer. If the echo was next to a monster and the knight next to the echo, then the monster could walk around the echo in order to attack the knight. This would make the echo useless. Instead it is more advantageous to place the echo next to a monster and the knight more than 10ft away. This binds the monster (loosing at least one attack or granting the echo an opportunity attack) and lets the knight use PAM ReactiveStrike etc.
2024 Interception doesn't work because it triggers upon a creature hitting another creature, and the Echo is not a creature. 2014 Interception and both versions of Protection should work as they're not limited to attacks targeting creatures.
But you're right, it would only apply in situations where the Echo is attacked while next to you, which is not usually where you want it to be.
Another scenario maybe covered sorry if I missed it.
A party member was down, I picked them up and then did the switch teleport. I could not see anywhere saying you can't do this?
To the best of my understanding, it depends on how down they are.
If they are just unconscious, then no. They are still considered a living creature and are subject to the rules of teleportation.
If they are completely DEAD, as in 3 failed death saves, then they are now considered an object and can travel with you as long as you can carry it. A Wizard can't simply put his hand on a fully grown dead adult Orc and teleport with him. The Wizard cannot carry the weight. But an Orc, Minitour, Goliath, or any strong species can most likely carry the burden of another party member. Or someone that is enlarged might be able to.
We just did this with an NPC companion that went down in a fight. We teleported away and the Goliath picked her body up. As soon as we got to the destination, our Cleric revived her.
Another scenario maybe covered sorry if I missed it.
A party member was down, I picked them up and then did the switch teleport. I could not see anywhere saying you can't do this?
To the best of my understanding, it depends on how down they are.
If they are just unconscious, then no. They are still considered a living creature and are subject to the rules of teleportation.
If they are completely DEAD, as in 3 failed death saves, then they are now considered an object and can travel with you as long as you can carry it. A Wizard can't simply put his hand on a fully grown dead adult Orc and teleport with him. The Wizard cannot carry the weight. But an Orc, Minitour, Goliath, or any strong species can most likely carry the burden of another party member. Or someone that is enlarged might be able to.
We just did this with an NPC companion that went down in a fight. We teleported away and the Goliath picked her body up. As soon as we got to the destination, our Cleric revived her.
I think the Rules Glossary disagrees with you.
When you teleport, all the equipment you’re wearing and carrying teleports with you. If you’re touching another creature when you teleport, that creature doesn’t teleport with you unless the teleportation effect says otherwise.
Just being an object is insufficient. You can't simply place your hand on a barrel or chest and "bamf" away with it. The item must be (a) equipped and (b) worn or carried.
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Since the Echo Knight attacks as if it were in the echo's space, something like Darkness would impart the Blinded condition.
These are the two questions from the start of this thread that can give some insight into your question. Can't change the numbers here, but they are actually #12 & 13 from the Attack section.
A: No by RAW, because the Echo has no "senses" without you using the level 7 ability. Thus an Echo cannot help a Knight see her target. (thanks @LeviRocks)
A: No, because the attack would originate from a position that wouldn't have the cover. (thanks @LeviRocks)
Pretty much the echo is an object and does not have any senses, so it cannot be blinded. If the Fighter cannot see the enemy at all, then it can't attack it. Even if right in front of the Echo. The only time the Fighter can see through the Echo is using the 7th level Echo Avatar ability. Using the Echo sort of like a wizard's familiar you can see and hear through it up to 1000' away. But you cannot attack through it while using this ability.
My DM has been kind to me though. I chose Blind Fighting as my PC's Fighting Style. And he's allowed it to work when the echo was in darkness and not the Fighter. But RAW, it should not work.
Another scenario maybe covered sorry if I missed it.
A party member was down, I picked them up and then did the switch teleport. I could not see anywhere saying you can't do this?
A lot of these things can be DM dependent, but the word "you" (as in, the Knight themselves) does a lot of the heavy lifting in many of the Echo Knight features. Specific to the teleport switch, and taking a party member along with you, by RAW the rule reads as:
To me, as per RAW, this clearly implies that the switch is solely between yourself, and your Echo.
That said, an unconscious party member is technically an object, if memory serves. So, I could probably be convinced to allow it in a particularly relevant or dramatic moment; despite going against my own reading of RAW.
For RAI, your own mileage may vary depending on your particular DM and table, though I would argue that any DM would be quite generous to allow it. Even if the feature itself doesn't explicitly preclude the carrying of a human-sized object, for RAI, the Echo Knight's Echo/Teleport feature seems to share more similarities with spells like Misty Step, rather than say, Dimension Door.
EDIT: Elaborated on previous detail and added Beyond reference to feature quote.
Frequently flippant; sorry for being an apologist.
The definition of teleportation in the 2024 Player's Handbook says that "if you're touching another creature when you teleport, that creature doesn't teleport with you unless the teleportation effect says otherwise", so it doesn't work under 2024 rules as written.
The 2014 rules lack a detailed definition of teleportation like this, but the fact that some teleportation effects (e.g. Dimension Door) explicitly say you can bring someone else along with you argues that that's not allowed with effects that don't explicitly say it is.
pronouns: he/she/they
This may have been answered earlier but I didn't see it so...
Can the echo move in any way if the fighter doesn't command it to do so?
Also, if the fighter knows Common Sign Language from 2024 rules, could the fighter instruct their echo use it too?
If the answer is yes to both of those questions, here's another:
Can the echo communicate its own opinions/thoughts/observations through Common Sign Language?
Hi! I am Potato. I am an experienced player and Dungeon Master using 2014 5th edition D&D, and I'm learning my way around 2024 5th edition. I am always happy to help with D&D issues for both players and DMs alike!
My pronouns are they/them; I'm a gayroace* femboy who isn't out of the closet yet...but it's kind of a transparent closet.
"We're all mad here." --The Cheshire Cat
*Made up that word, very proud of it
I would say no to moving without command from the fighter, and communicating opinions. It is not an entity in itself, it is a "shadow", a remnant of possible version of yourself. It can only do attacks, and the attacks are from the fighter.
What an interesting idea to use your echo for communication or allowing it to communicate or move as an independent entity As SlowestCat mentioned, this isn’t supposed by RAW. But this is certainly something you should discuss with your DM I’ve had a number of ideas for “Echos” that where similar.
For example, one concept I had was that the echo was actually my knight’s figurative shadow, their darker half. It had its own mind and would sometimes move about while my knight was asleep. Or act on its own in combat, such as choosing to kill its target instead of sparring the enemy as the knight wished. But this can all be done through roleplaying, while still keeping within the rules. I could say the echo is moving of its own accord against the knights will, but it is still using the knights action/turn to do it. If you do wish to give it a degree of independence, I would just suggest that it shouldn’t give you added advantaged in combat. Or you could even give control to the DM if it moved or acted independently as if it were half an NPC. Ultimately this would of course be a call for your DM. But I do love your creativity thinking.
I personally think the rules are primarily there for balance, but roleplaying-wise you can flavor them however you want and think outside the box description.
RAW, absolutely not. The echo is a magical object. It has no actions, movements, nor abilities of it's own.
Rule of Cool or DM decision, you can technically do as you wish. Moving on it's own could be interesting as The_Humble_Giant has stated. But I think that gives it too much freedom. It speaking on it's own out of combat via sign language could be great RP.
I'm playing a Goliath Barb/Fighter echo knight. His twin brother died in front of him wearing a ring of Mind Shielding given to them by a shadowy figure. The ring was meant to help make him better than his brother. At least that's what the figure told him, to give it to his brother and he would no longer be better than him. So he did. The next day, his brother died running off alone to fight some monster they heard attacking people in the woods. By the time my guy got there, brother was in half on the ground and the creature gone. He took the ring back and put it on, then crashed and slept on the ground by his dead brother.
Next morning, creepy guy was there as he woke. Talking about "it worked". He picked up his dead brother's axe, swung it and the guy fell in half too. But it was the echo that killed the guy 20 feet away. Now his brother's soul is stuck in the Ring of Mind Shielding, is the source of his echo, the ring went invisible on it's own, and he can't take it off. But he can hear his brother.
Also, we're in Tryanny of Dragons and my guy got Hazirawn, a neutral evil sentient sword. So he's got the voice of good in his head as his brother, and a voice of evil in the sword. Two opposing views in his head at all times. RP shenanigans are fun. I mostly let him make faces with the echo to reflect his emotions. It was also a way to give the other players some indication it wasn't JUST a shadow, nor was it him. Even if it looks just like him cause, you know, twins.
RAW, nothing in the text of Echo Knight describes the echo as a magical object, and the general rules for objects in the PH'14 don't apply. There wasn't a definition, so we relied on an interpretation issued by Jeremy Crawford.
Since the Rules Glossary was added, we can safely call it an object.
Hi guys,
I wonder if the FightingStyles DnD2014/2024 Protection or DnD2014 Interception can be applied to the Echo from DnD2014. I think it can.
Protection / Interception: When a creature you can see attacks / hits a TARGET other than you that is within 5 feet of you … (http://dnd2024.*******.com/feat:protection) (https://dnd5e.*******.com/fighter)
In my understanding a target includes a creature and an object which the Echo is (see this thread). Unless target is defined in the rules somewhere…
What do you think please?
PS: Tactically it might be useless. Though Protection DnD2024 would be better because the effect lasts much longer. If the echo was next to a monster and the knight next to the echo, then the monster could walk around the echo in order to attack the knight. This would make the echo useless. Instead it is more advantageous to place the echo next to a monster and the knight more than 10ft away. This binds the monster (loosing at least one attack or granting the echo an opportunity attack) and lets the knight use PAM ReactiveStrike etc.
2024 Interception doesn't work because it triggers upon a creature hitting another creature, and the Echo is not a creature. 2014 Interception and both versions of Protection should work as they're not limited to attacks targeting creatures.
But you're right, it would only apply in situations where the Echo is attacked while next to you, which is not usually where you want it to be.
pronouns: he/she/they
To the best of my understanding, it depends on how down they are.
If they are just unconscious, then no. They are still considered a living creature and are subject to the rules of teleportation.
If they are completely DEAD, as in 3 failed death saves, then they are now considered an object and can travel with you as long as you can carry it. A Wizard can't simply put his hand on a fully grown dead adult Orc and teleport with him. The Wizard cannot carry the weight. But an Orc, Minitour, Goliath, or any strong species can most likely carry the burden of another party member. Or someone that is enlarged might be able to.
We just did this with an NPC companion that went down in a fight. We teleported away and the Goliath picked her body up. As soon as we got to the destination, our Cleric revived her.
I think the Rules Glossary disagrees with you.
Just being an object is insufficient. You can't simply place your hand on a barrel or chest and "bamf" away with it. The item must be (a) equipped and (b) worn or carried.