I looked up literally the other day, and the UrbanDictionary defines it as "not literally"! SMH.
In roleplaying games, descriptions are vital and so language has to be precise.
"DM: The Tarrasque is within a hundred yards of you as the trail suddenly ends at a literally bottomless chasm.
"Player: OK, I'll jump in, take a long rest and then cast teleport back to my tower."
"DM: you take 30D6 falling damage as you smash into the ground at terminal velocity. Literally Terminal. Unless you roll less than your current hit points, of course."
I looked up literally the other day, and the UrbanDictionary defines it as "not literally"! SMH.
In roleplaying games, descriptions are vital and so language has to be precise.
"DM: The Tarrasque is within a hundred yards of you as the trail suddenly ends at a literally bottomless chasm.
"Player: OK, I'll jump in, take a long rest and then cast teleport back to my tower."
"DM: you take 30D6 falling damage as you smash into the ground at terminal velocity. Literally Terminal. Unless you roll less than your current hit points, of course."
"Player: I'm outta here."
... Your mental processes when making these jokes are sometimes a tad hard to follow, did anyone tell you that ever?
Anyway, going back to the main topic, there is no denial that the bonus action does not count as part of the attack action, even if the effect of the bonus action can only be activated after an attack action, otherwise the text would say "as part of your attack action, you can spend/exhaust/forego your Bonus action to do xyz" (a kind of wording that I believe is currently found nowhere in the manuals, btw). All this to say: there's little discussing that the intended mechanic is to sacrifice a weapon attack in favor of the +2 AC.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
unfortunately while i agree i feel like the bonus action attack granted with the Martial Arts feature should be part of the attack action, this was sort of answered by Jeremy Crawford on twitter:
so yes from level 3-5 to use the +2 AC feature you would have to use an unarmed strike as your only attack in exchange for the +2AC but after 5th level, you could then get one weapon and one unarmed as part of an attack action. all in all, i still think Kensei is pretty cool, even if the 11th level perk is kind of useless unless you have a very stingy DM. hahaha
unfortunately while i agree i feel like the bonus action attack granted with the Martial Arts feature should be part of the attack action, this was sort of answered by Jeremy Crawford on twitter:
so yes from level 3-5 to use the +2 AC feature you would have to use an unarmed strike as your only attack in exchange for the +2AC but after 5th level, you could then get one weapon and one unarmed as part of an attack action. all in all, i still think Kensei is pretty cool, even if the 11th level perk is kind of useless unless you have a very stingy DM. hahaha
honestly that does answer it quite a bit, but still kinda lame. Ah well, I already made my own version of it in homebrew, and it could be up to a dm either way, but for now I would still be content playing it as well.
thanks for finding that tweet though!
but another question I had... I suppose sharpening the blade works with a flame tongue weapon?
unfortunately while i agree i feel like the bonus action attack granted with the Martial Arts feature should be part of the attack action, this was sort of answered by Jeremy Crawford on twitter:
so yes from level 3-5 to use the +2 AC feature you would have to use an unarmed strike as your only attack in exchange for the +2AC but after 5th level, you could then get one weapon and one unarmed as part of an attack action. all in all, i still think Kensei is pretty cool, even if the 11th level perk is kind of useless unless you have a very stingy DM. hahaha
honestly that does answer it quite a bit, but still kinda lame. Ah well, I already made my own version of it in homebrew, and it could be up to a dm either way, but for now I would still be content playing it as well.
thanks for finding that tweet though!
but another question I had... I suppose sharpening the blade works with a flame tongue weapon?
Indeed it does. It works with any magic weapon that does not already grant an attack bonus (part of the reason why I created the Chromatic Homebrew weapon [still developing a new version of it]).
What is really amazing is that we are having this argument about something that was written in plain English. Both sides are equally convinced that the meaning is clear as day and can't really be understood in any other fashion.
It's no wonder religions splinter when their holy texts have been translated and re translated into wildly different languages. Religion - the ultimate game of 'Chinese Whispers' and an easy adventure hook for every occasion.
What is really amazing is that we are having this argument about something that was written in plain English. Both sides are equally convinced that the meaning is clear as day and can't really be understood in any other fashion.
It's no wonder religions splinter when their holy texts have been translated and re translated into wildly different languages. Religion - the ultimate game of 'Chinese Whispers' and an easy adventure hook for every occasion.
Literally.
Now I just think your actively antagonizing people, which is great for a discussion on a role playing game! Thanks for your input I guess.
Anyways, is there any more gameplay discussion on the kinsei's place in the party? We already covered the rules debate of the agile parry, and how it activates, but I want to learn even more about the tactics of it compared to other classes (weapon builds, strengths, stuff like that) that answers the main question of why play kensei.
"Why play a Kensei" can be answered, in my opinion, with the same answer as "why play a champion". That answer is, imho, flavor.
Are there better performing (in terms of pure party utility) subclasses? Little doubt there are. Can these subclasses be played the same as the Kensei/Champion? Hardly without changing the inherit flavor of the subclass.
Tactics-wise, I believe we cover that as well when discussing the mechanic of Agile party (I dare say my post explained quite in detail how the progression of the Kensei affects how you can play it). Anyway, the tactics are, imho, as simple as they get: you are a front-facing, up close combatant, little need to move in-and-out of the combat range of the enemy, full-on damage, as you have better than the average monk damage until level 17, and you can sacrifice a bit of that damage in order to stay with you feet planted and still not suffer damage. On top of this, you have all the other mobility-enhancing and freedom of movement capabilities that other up-close basic classes (Fighter and Barbarian) do not have and are able to overcome damage reductions better than said classes, while admittedly being prone to be outperformed in sheer nova damage output.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Antagonising? I prefer to think of it as agitating. :)
I think roleplayers need to have some fascination with the "human condition." Why do people play elves and half-elves and wizards if not to highlight the differences in how these other races might act in various situations, compared with the baseline - humans?
We humans are probably much more diverse than your average stone carving dwarf or tree-hugging elf, and yet humans seem to be the minority in most adventuring parties (only 20% according to Vic Reeves' Big Book of Statistics for all Occasions.)
I can't be the only one to imagine the cultured intercourse, name calling, stick throwing, competition driving, rioting in the streets, internecine warfare that could come about by 2 clans arguing about such a tiny detail. Which side will the PCs favour? Will they be able to stop laughing at the poor fools long enough to set up a "Fistful of Dollars" type encounter.
Why play Kensei? Unless you are Japanese or Okinawan, then even the human ones probably come from a culture different to yours. A culture with swords! And Ninja. And Dinosaurs! That argument probably won't sway anyone not already on this boat with me.
Honestly - if you want mechanical reasons to play a Kensei, I don't think you will get them. They seem fairly weak compared with most other classes. If you are playing D&D as a glorified version of Descent, then Kensei is the choice of the experienced player who wants to take a disadvantage for the sake of game balance. But it does have a nice set of decisions to be made when in combat - burn Ki for offense or defence (30 minutes of meditation will get it back), use your speed to tactical advantage, re-roll failed saving throws (Diamond Soul), laugh at poison and middle-aged spread, effective with bows and swords....the list of options is literally fairly short, which is not a great line to end my defence. Sorry.
Personally I think that if you are having to be talked into playing a Kensei, then you should pick another class. Or pick Kensei. All the classes seem more fun than they were 20-30 years ago.
He says that Kensei are not the most powerful in combat (I agree) and that their tactics are comparatively simple and in your face (I disagree.) Perhaps that is why you should play a Kensei; they are as inscrutable as the land which inspired them.
He says that Kensei are not the most powerful in combat (I agree) and that their tactics are comparatively simple and in your face (I disagree.) Perhaps that is why you should play a Kensei; they are as inscrutable as the land which inspired them.
How is their tactic, from a subclass standpoint, only taking into consideration what it actually adds to the basic Monk class, any more complicated than I explained?
I am genuinely interested in knowing where you disagree with me.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
In the beginning there was combat, and for melee combatants the choice came down to attack, or not attack. (Basic D&D and Advanced versions 1&2)
Then you had the whole 'Player's Options' era, where you could do a bunch of 'clever' stuff that was rarely as effective as just clubbing your opponent.
Then there was 4th Edition : Glorious lists of options for all classes, at-will powers, encounter powers, daily powers, utility powers.....sometimes either a bit overwhelming, or just too long winded and complicated to keep track of...but ultimately, a bit regimented.
Now you have 5th Edition settling somewhere in the middle - streamlined rules, but with meaningful choices available every round.
The monk, with 3 or 4 points of ki available after each short rest, can attack and then have either a 'free' bonus attack, or spend 1 pt of ki to do a flurry of blows. He could instead spend that point to dodge (patient defense), or remove himself from combat altogether without fear of opportunity attacks (Disengage.) The agile parry (when exchanging a weapon attack for a weaker unarmed attack) just adds to the choices. Deflecting arrows - might want to save some Ki to fling an arrow back at an opponent (especially if that opponent has a dark elf handcrossbow with sleep darts.)
So not quite as "simple as you get." Mostly though, I said I disagree to highlight my point that even those of us that agree (you and I) don't always agree for the same reasons.
Other classes seem simpler: Archery style ranger combat : Bonus action - mark target. Attack action - shoot target. Move action - why bother, I can hit from here? Sorcerer : Firebolt!
The battle master fighter, with all those superiority dice options, seems even more fun than the Kensei, but with less of my favourite flavour. Each to his own.
Understood, you meant as whole together with the class features, not only in relation to the additions it implements. As said, my point on the Kensei being simple was in comparison to other subclasses, taking into consideration only what it actually adds to the basic class, which I agree is not a simple one to begin with in the Monk’s case.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Antagonizing? I prefer to think of it as agitating. :)
I think roleplayers need to have some fascination with the "human condition." Why do people play elves and half-elves and wizards if not to highlight the differences in how these other races might act in various situations, compared with the baseline - humans.
First, wizard is not a race. Second, my "fascination" with the human condition is nothing more than trying to figure out how to cure it.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Antagonizing? I prefer to think of it as agitating. :)
I think roleplayers need to have some fascination with the "human condition." Why do people play elves and half-elves and wizards if not to highlight the differences in how these other races might act in various situations, compared with the baseline - humans.
First, wizard is not a race. Second, my "fascination" with the human condition is nothing more than trying to figure out how to cure it.
"Why do people play elves and half-elves and wizards...." Is a referential mis-quote; in this instance, Wizard IS a race. Don't argue with Professor Tolkien - without his plagiarising of Norse Lore, D&D would have a distinctly different landscape. I am aware that there are few kensei in LOTR, even the Peter Jackson version. :) I can see Merry or Pippin dipping a couple of levels for one though.
I knew someone would rise to the bait - Thank you for not disappointing. ;)
You are taking the “attack action” during your “standard action”. During a standard action you can attack, cast a spell, dash, disengage, dodge, help, or hide. A “bonus action” is the term used for the additional action that certain abilities let you do. The extra unarmed strike monks can do means that as a “bonus action” they can make an unarmed attack, meaning they can take the “attack action” using their unarmed strikes. Similarly if you use step of the wind then on your “bonus action” you can take the “disengage” or “dash” action as an additional actions. Therefore since monks make the “attack action” during the “bonus action” it is within the rules to weapon attack as a standard action, unarmed strike as a bonus action and still get the +2 AC.
You are taking the “attack action” during your “standard action”. During a standard action you can attack, cast a spell, dash, disengage, dodge, help, or hide. A “bonus action” is the term used for the additional action that certain abilities let you do. The extra unarmed strike monks can do means that as a “bonus action” they can make an unarmed attack, meaning they can take the “attack action” using their unarmed strikes. Similarly if you use step of the wind then on your “bonus action” you can take the “disengage” or “dash” action as an additional actions. Therefore since monks make the “attack action” during the “bonus action” it is within the rules to weapon attack as a standard action, unarmed strike as a bonus action and still get the +2 AC.
In 5th edition there is no such thing as a "standard action". There are Actions, Bonus action and Reactions. An attack performed as a Bonus Action is still an Bonus Action, separate from your Action, therefore the unarmed attack made with a Bonus Action is not part of the Attack Action needed to trigger Agile Parry. You need the Attack Action to be able to perform the Bonus Action unarmed attack, but that does not make that attack part of the Attack Action.
Agile Parry has been designed specifically this way to offer a tactical choice between attack and defence. Monk can have at lower level higher AC than most classes, giving them a free +2 to AC at level 3 with no tradeoff would be extremely unjust to any other class. At level 5 the choice becomes easier, as having two attacks per Attack Action lets you keep up the +2 AC without much loss in damage output.
Currently, my 5th level Kensei has constantly 20 AC thanks to this, and still manage to out-damage almost everyone in my party (at least for 5 turns thanks to Flurry of Blows)
Both Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows (as well as the two weapon fighting rules) say that you perform the bonus action attack as part of the Attack Action. The default rules have the Attack Action as a regular Action/standard action/whatever you want to call it.
Both Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows (as well as the two weapon fighting rules) say that you perform the bonus action attack as part of the Attack Action. The default rules have the Attack Action as a regular Action/standard action/whatever you want to call it.
Attacking is not the same as an Attack Action.
Sorry to correct you, Mephista, but nowhere in the description for Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows it says "as part of the Attack action" (as other feature specifically do), otherwise the interpretation Titanium would be correct.
Those descriptions just say that an Attack Action needs to be performed in order to use the bonus action for an unarmed strike/flurry of blows.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
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Nah, "the kids" use it all the time.
C.f. Absolutely, literally, actually.......
I looked up literally the other day, and the UrbanDictionary defines it as "not literally"!
SMH.
In roleplaying games, descriptions are vital and so language has to be precise.
"DM: The Tarrasque is within a hundred yards of you as the trail suddenly ends at a literally bottomless chasm.
"Player: OK, I'll jump in, take a long rest and then cast teleport back to my tower."
"DM: you take 30D6 falling damage as you smash into the ground at terminal velocity. Literally Terminal. Unless you roll less than your current hit points, of course."
"Player: I'm outta here."
Roleplaying since Runequest.
All this to say: there's little discussing that the intended mechanic is to sacrifice a weapon attack in favor of the +2 AC.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
unfortunately while i agree i feel like the bonus action attack granted with the Martial Arts feature should be part of the attack action, this was sort of answered by Jeremy Crawford on twitter:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/576781743123910656
so yes from level 3-5 to use the +2 AC feature you would have to use an unarmed strike as your only attack in exchange for the +2AC but after 5th level, you could then get one weapon and one unarmed as part of an attack action. all in all, i still think Kensei is pretty cool, even if the 11th level perk is kind of useless unless you have a very stingy DM. hahaha
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Essentially you are foregoing your weapon attack to defend with the weapon. Hence giving you the +2 to AC.
What is really amazing is that we are having this argument about something that was written in plain English. Both sides are equally convinced that the meaning is clear as day and can't really be understood in any other fashion.
It's no wonder religions splinter when their holy texts have been translated and re translated into wildly different languages. Religion - the ultimate game of 'Chinese Whispers' and an easy adventure hook for every occasion.
Literally.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
"Why play a Kensei" can be answered, in my opinion, with the same answer as "why play a champion". That answer is, imho, flavor.
Are there better performing (in terms of pure party utility) subclasses? Little doubt there are. Can these subclasses be played the same as the Kensei/Champion? Hardly without changing the inherit flavor of the subclass.
Tactics-wise, I believe we cover that as well when discussing the mechanic of Agile party (I dare say my post explained quite in detail how the progression of the Kensei affects how you can play it). Anyway, the tactics are, imho, as simple as they get: you are a front-facing, up close combatant, little need to move in-and-out of the combat range of the enemy, full-on damage, as you have better than the average monk damage until level 17, and you can sacrifice a bit of that damage in order to stay with you feet planted and still not suffer damage. On top of this, you have all the other mobility-enhancing and freedom of movement capabilities that other up-close basic classes (Fighter and Barbarian) do not have and are able to overcome damage reductions better than said classes, while admittedly being prone to be outperformed in sheer nova damage output.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Antagonising?
I prefer to think of it as agitating. :)
I think roleplayers need to have some fascination with the "human condition." Why do people play elves and half-elves and wizards if not to highlight the differences in how these other races might act in various situations, compared with the baseline - humans?
We humans are probably much more diverse than your average stone carving dwarf or tree-hugging elf, and yet humans seem to be the minority in most adventuring parties (only 20% according to Vic Reeves' Big Book of Statistics for all Occasions.)
I can't be the only one to imagine the cultured intercourse, name calling, stick throwing, competition driving, rioting in the streets, internecine warfare that could come about by 2 clans arguing about such a tiny detail. Which side will the PCs favour? Will they be able to stop laughing at the poor fools long enough to set up a "Fistful of Dollars" type encounter.
Why play Kensei?
Unless you are Japanese or Okinawan, then even the human ones probably come from a culture different to yours. A culture with swords! And Ninja. And Dinosaurs! That argument probably won't sway anyone not already on this boat with me.
Honestly - if you want mechanical reasons to play a Kensei, I don't think you will get them. They seem fairly weak compared with most other classes.
If you are playing D&D as a glorified version of Descent, then Kensei is the choice of the experienced player who wants to take a disadvantage for the sake of game balance. But it does have a nice set of decisions to be made when in combat - burn Ki for offense or defence (30 minutes of meditation will get it back), use your speed to tactical advantage, re-roll failed saving throws (Diamond Soul), laugh at poison and middle-aged spread, effective with bows and swords....the list of options is literally fairly short, which is not a great line to end my defence. Sorry.
Personally I think that if you are having to be talked into playing a Kensei, then you should pick another class. Or pick Kensei.
All the classes seem more fun than they were 20-30 years ago.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
LOL
Lek's reply crossed in the post with mine....
He says that Kensei are not the most powerful in combat (I agree) and that their tactics are comparatively simple and in your face (I disagree.)
Perhaps that is why you should play a Kensei; they are as inscrutable as the land which inspired them.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
In the beginning there was combat, and for melee combatants the choice came down to attack, or not attack. (Basic D&D and Advanced versions 1&2)
Then you had the whole 'Player's Options' era, where you could do a bunch of 'clever' stuff that was rarely as effective as just clubbing your opponent.
Then there was 4th Edition : Glorious lists of options for all classes, at-will powers, encounter powers, daily powers, utility powers.....sometimes either a bit overwhelming, or just too long winded and complicated to keep track of...but ultimately, a bit regimented.
Now you have 5th Edition settling somewhere in the middle - streamlined rules, but with meaningful choices available every round.
The monk, with 3 or 4 points of ki available after each short rest, can attack and then have either a 'free' bonus attack, or spend 1 pt of ki to do a flurry of blows. He could instead spend that point to dodge (patient defense), or remove himself from combat altogether without fear of opportunity attacks (Disengage.) The agile parry (when exchanging a weapon attack for a weaker unarmed attack) just adds to the choices. Deflecting arrows - might want to save some Ki to fling an arrow back at an opponent (especially if that opponent has a dark elf handcrossbow with sleep darts.)
So not quite as "simple as you get."
Mostly though, I said I disagree to highlight my point that even those of us that agree (you and I) don't always agree for the same reasons.
Other classes seem simpler:
Archery style ranger combat : Bonus action - mark target. Attack action - shoot target. Move action - why bother, I can hit from here?
Sorcerer : Firebolt!
The battle master fighter, with all those superiority dice options, seems even more fun than the Kensei, but with less of my favourite flavour. Each to his own.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Understood, you meant as whole together with the class features, not only in relation to the additions it implements. As said, my point on the Kensei being simple was in comparison to other subclasses, taking into consideration only what it actually adds to the basic class, which I agree is not a simple one to begin with in the Monk’s case.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Roleplaying since Runequest.
You are taking the “attack action” during your “standard action”. During a standard action you can attack, cast a spell, dash, disengage, dodge, help, or hide. A “bonus action” is the term used for the additional action that certain abilities let you do. The extra unarmed strike monks can do means that as a “bonus action” they can make an unarmed attack, meaning they can take the “attack action” using their unarmed strikes. Similarly if you use step of the wind then on your “bonus action” you can take the “disengage” or “dash” action as an additional actions. Therefore since monks make the “attack action” during the “bonus action” it is within the rules to weapon attack as a standard action, unarmed strike as a bonus action and still get the +2 AC.
An attack performed as a Bonus Action is still an Bonus Action, separate from your Action, therefore the unarmed attack made with a Bonus Action is not part of the Attack Action needed to trigger Agile Parry. You need the Attack Action to be able to perform the Bonus Action unarmed attack, but that does not make that attack part of the Attack Action.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Both Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows (as well as the two weapon fighting rules) say that you perform the bonus action attack as part of the Attack Action. The default rules have the Attack Action as a regular Action/standard action/whatever you want to call it.
Attacking is not the same as an Attack Action.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games