There are two clear winners for elemental attunement, and they're both in the final bullet:
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.
That means a monk can't be stopped by stone or ice, and can tell liquid water to maintain a shape and act like a solid, which means portable cover. This is easily as good as Shape Water - you lose some abilities, like cracking things open by ordering liquid water to turn to ice, but the ability to simply tell a stone wall to get out of your way is incredible. Since the ability does this and more, it's absolutely in the set of S tier cantrips, like Shape Water and Minor Illusion (which it also has some overlap with in how you can use it). I think it's ludicrous to call it Prestidigitation but worse.
Does "earth" include solid stone as well?
The reason I ask, is because the cantrip Mold Earth is only capable of moving "loose earth." It does have effects which affect stone, but none that involve moving or changing its shape. To do what you are saying with solid stone, you would usually need a spell like Stone Shape. I find it unlikely that having a monk that can tunnel through stone at 3rd level when Stone Shape is a 4th level spell is RAI for the ability.
Theres alot of room for DM interpretation for Elemental Attunement, but if you are arguing that a cantrip-like ability can be as powerful as 4th level spells, I feel most DMs will not rule in your favor.
Edit: Also, where are you getting that Elemental Attunement means a monk can't be stopped by ice? Reading the description, their reshaping ability only applies to water or mist, not ice specifically. You could argue that the warming ability allows the ice to be melted into water, but it the ability does not outline how significant the chilling/warming is. Whether this would be sufficient for melting ice (in an environment that may be below freezing temperatures) is definitely not clear cut.
Where do you get your interpretation that ice isn'twater?
When a spell or other effect can turn water into ice or shape ice, it explicitly says so.
[Edit. I may be wrong in this point. I could have sworn a spell in 5e explicitly stated that it allowed the creation and shaping of ice, but I cannot seem to find it. The closest thing I can find is that Shape Water allows you to freeze water for 1 hour. That being said, there is a difference between Water and Ice, as they are different forms of matter. Elemental Attunement states two forms of water it can interact with (water and mist) but it does not state it can interact with ice or act to frezze/unfreeze water as part of the "reshaping" process. So shaping water into an ice wall for cover is a no go]
Water and ice are not different forms of matter. Two Hydrogen, one Oxygen. Alchemically, water is an element (ice certainly isn’t fire, air, or earth).
There are two clear winners for elemental attunement, and they're both in the final bullet:
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.
That means a monk can't be stopped by stone or ice, and can tell liquid water to maintain a shape and act like a solid, which means portable cover. This is easily as good as Shape Water - you lose some abilities, like cracking things open by ordering liquid water to turn to ice, but the ability to simply tell a stone wall to get out of your way is incredible. Since the ability does this and more, it's absolutely in the set of S tier cantrips, like Shape Water and Minor Illusion (which it also has some overlap with in how you can use it). I think it's ludicrous to call it Prestidigitation but worse.
Does "earth" include solid stone as well?
The reason I ask, is because the cantrip Mold Earth is only capable of moving "loose earth." It does have effects which affect stone, but none that involve moving or changing its shape. To do what you are saying with solid stone, you would usually need a spell like Stone Shape. I find it unlikely that having a monk that can tunnel through stone at 3rd level when Stone Shape is a 4th level spell is RAI for the ability.
Theres alot of room for DM interpretation for Elemental Attunement, but if you are arguing that a cantrip-like ability can be as powerful as 4th level spells, I feel most DMs will not rule in your favor.
Edit: Also, where are you getting that Elemental Attunement means a monk can't be stopped by ice? Reading the description, their reshaping ability only applies to water or mist, not ice specifically. You could argue that the warming ability allows the ice to be melted into water, but it the ability does not outline how significant the chilling/warming is. Whether this would be sufficient for melting ice (in an environment that may be below freezing temperatures) is definitely not clear cut.
Where do you get your interpretation that ice isn'twater?
When a spell or other effect can turn water into ice or shape ice, it explicitly says so.
[Edit. I may be wrong in this point. I could have sworn a spell in 5e explicitly stated that it allowed the creation and shaping of ice, but I cannot seem to find it. The closest thing I can find is that Shape Water allows you to freeze water for 1 hour. That being said, there is a difference between Water and Ice, as they are different forms of matter. Elemental Attunement states two forms of water it can interact with (water and mist) but it does not state it can interact with ice or act to frezze/unfreeze water as part of the "reshaping" process. So shaping water into an ice wall for cover is a no go]
Water and ice are not different forms of matter. Two Hydrogen, one Oxygen. Alchemically, water is an element (ice certainly isn’t fire, air, or earth).
...solid (ice), liquid (water), gas (mist). Elemental Attunement only affects two of these three forms of matter.
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You can use your action to briefly control elemental forces within 30 feet of you, causing one of the following effects of your choice:
Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone.
Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.
You can use your action to briefly control elemental forces within 30 feet of you, causing one of the following effects of your choice:
Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone.
Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.
”such as .. a spray of light mist”
this clearly isn’t meant to be a limited list
"Cause earth, fire, water or mist to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute"
You can shape 4 things, thats it. Earth (presumably loose earth or stone based on Mold Earth), Water (liquid water), Fire (self explanatory), or Mist (while this is clearly meant to be the "air" aspect, mist is another form of water as well). All of this is to say that ice is not included in that list for things that can be reshaped.
If we say that "water" also includes its solid form (ice), should we also include the liquid form of earth (molten lava)?
Again, if you take Shape Water as an example, it explicitly tells you that you can use its effect to freeze or unfreeze water. For elemental attunement, it states that you can chill or warm a material, but that is a separate effect from the reshaping effect, which does not state it allows you to change an objects form (from water to mist, water to ice, earth to lava, etc). The material must keep its original form and only change its geometric shape.
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You can use your action to briefly control elemental forces within 30 feet of you, causing one of the following effects of your choice:
Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone.
Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.
”such as .. a spray of light mist”
this clearly isn’t meant to be a limited list
"Cause earth, fire, water or mist to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute"
You can shape 4 things, thats it. Earth (presumably loose earth or stone based on Mold Earth), Water (liquid water), Fire (self explanatory), or Mist (while this is clearly meant to be the "air" aspect, mist is another form of water as well). All of this is to say that ice is not included in that list for things that can be reshaped.
If we say that "water" also includes its solid form (ice), should we also include the liquid form of earth (molten lava)?
Again, if you take Shape Water as an example, it explicitly tells you that you can use its effect to freeze or unfreeze water. For elemental attunement, it states that you can chill or warm a material, but that is a separate effect from the reshaping effect, which does not state it allows you to change an objects form (from water to mist, water to ice, earth to lava, etc). The material must keep its original form and only change its geometric shape.
i see your point I think RAW supports you. I personally don't see a balance issue with allowing you to affect ice but I do see what you're basing your argument on.
3) Monks are already good at not needing to carry weapons, their body is a weapon. Also I am not sure producing weapons (especially ceramic ones) works RAW for this ability. It says that it takes a "crude" shape, so getting a sharp edge or the correct weight distribution for a thrown weapon could be too much detail depending on DM interpretation.
There are times when even a monks mobility fails them and a ranged weapon is needed. Flying creatures for one quick example. I believe underwater fists would also be at disadvantage but a dagger wouldn't. ( JC tweet unarmed strikes are "weapon attacks")
Underwater Combat
When adventurers pursue sahuagin back to their undersea homes, fight off sharks in an ancient shipwreck, or find themselves in a flooded dungeon room, they must fight in a challenging environment. Underwater the following rules apply.
When making a melee weapon attack, a creature that doesn't have a swimming speed (either natural or granted by magic) has disadvantage on the attack roll unless the weapon is a dagger, javelin, shortsword, spear, or trident.
Basically this is a weird deep dive. showing how much people miss (Mostly due to the exceptions based rules not for their own faults)
2) Moving fire relies on the fire already being present, so this aspect of using it relies on you using another ED or tag teaming with a party member.
Lanterns, torches, Campfires, alchemist fire. any spell that sets things on fire. you could literally bring the same campfire all day if you keep moving it at the same speed as a normal PC.
You can use your action to briefly control elemental forces within 30 feet of you, causing one of the following effects of your choice:
Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone.
Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.
”such as .. a spray of light mist”
this clearly isn’t meant to be a limited list
"Cause earth, fire, water or mist to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute"
You can shape 4 things, thats it. Earth (presumably loose earth or stone based on Mold Earth), Water (liquid water), Fire (self explanatory), or Mist (while this is clearly meant to be the "air" aspect, mist is another form of water as well). All of this is to say that ice is not included in that list for things that can be reshaped.
If we say that "water" also includes its solid form (ice), should we also include the liquid form of earth (molten lava)?
Again, if you take Shape Water as an example, it explicitly tells you that you can use its effect to freeze or unfreeze water. For elemental attunement, it states that you can chill or warm a material, but that is a separate effect from the reshaping effect, which does not state it allows you to change an objects form (from water to mist, water to ice, earth to lava, etc). The material must keep its original form and only change its geometric shape.
I think you may be right on water and ice being different. I remember JC saying something to that affect but couldn't find where.
Also, different bullets are distinctly different uses. You are absolutely correct on that.
However, your crude form should allow you to create solid water for one minute which is weird because it is exactly how ice would behave minus the heat absorption. As for going through the ice well.. you can shape the fire and focus the heat any way you want so as long as you create the fire it will help. This is why you have access to a hooded-lantern for setting up quick manipulation of the fire.
You can use your action to briefly control elemental forces within 30 feet of you, causing one of the following effects of your choice:
Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone.
Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.
”such as .. a spray of light mist”
this clearly isn’t meant to be a limited list
"Cause earth, fire, water or mist to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute"
You can shape 4 things, thats it. Earth (presumably loose earth or stone based on Mold Earth), Water (liquid water), Fire (self explanatory), or Mist (while this is clearly meant to be the "air" aspect, mist is another form of water as well). All of this is to say that ice is not included in that list for things that can be reshaped.
If we say that "water" also includes its solid form (ice), should we also include the liquid form of earth (molten lava)?
Again, if you take Shape Water as an example, it explicitly tells you that you can use its effect to freeze or unfreeze water. For elemental attunement, it states that you can chill or warm a material, but that is a separate effect from the reshaping effect, which does not state it allows you to change an objects form (from water to mist, water to ice, earth to lava, etc). The material must keep its original form and only change its geometric shape.
I think you may be right on water and ice being different. I remember JC saying something to that affect but couldn't find where.
Also, different bullets are distinctly different uses. You are absolutely correct on that.
However, your crude form should allow you to create solid water for one minute which is weird because it is exactly how ice would behave minus the heat absorption. As for going through the ice well.. you can shape the fire and focus the heat any way you want so as long as you create the fire it will help. This is why you have access to a hooded-lantern for setting up quick manipulation of the fire.
Yeah, I dont think melting ice is any issue. Its just a matter of reshaping it.
Also, I think one can validate the difference between water and ice in 4EM by looking at another ED. Shape of the Flowing River costs 1 ki and explicitly allows the reshaping / form changing of water to ice or vice versa along with other neat effects
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Water and ice are not different forms of matter. Two Hydrogen, one Oxygen. Alchemically, water is an element (ice certainly isn’t fire, air, or earth).
...solid (ice), liquid (water), gas (mist). Elemental Attunement only affects two of these three forms of matter.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
You can use your action to briefly control elemental forces within 30 feet of you, causing one of the following effects of your choice:
”such as .. a spray of light mist”
this clearly isn’t meant to be a limited list
"Cause earth, fire, water or mist to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute"
You can shape 4 things, thats it. Earth (presumably loose earth or stone based on Mold Earth), Water (liquid water), Fire (self explanatory), or Mist (while this is clearly meant to be the "air" aspect, mist is another form of water as well). All of this is to say that ice is not included in that list for things that can be reshaped.
If we say that "water" also includes its solid form (ice), should we also include the liquid form of earth (molten lava)?
Again, if you take Shape Water as an example, it explicitly tells you that you can use its effect to freeze or unfreeze water. For elemental attunement, it states that you can chill or warm a material, but that is a separate effect from the reshaping effect, which does not state it allows you to change an objects form (from water to mist, water to ice, earth to lava, etc). The material must keep its original form and only change its geometric shape.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
i see your point I think RAW supports you. I personally don't see a balance issue with allowing you to affect ice but I do see what you're basing your argument on.
There are times when even a monks mobility fails them and a ranged weapon is needed. Flying creatures for one quick example. I believe underwater fists would also be at disadvantage but a dagger wouldn't. ( JC tweet unarmed strikes are "weapon attacks")
Underwater Combat
When adventurers pursue sahuagin back to their undersea homes, fight off sharks in an ancient shipwreck, or find themselves in a flooded dungeon room, they must fight in a challenging environment. Underwater the following rules apply.
When making a melee weapon attack, a creature that doesn't have a swimming speed (either natural or granted by magic) has disadvantage on the attack roll unless the weapon is a dagger, javelin, shortsword, spear, or trident.
Basically this is a weird deep dive. showing how much people miss (Mostly due to the exceptions based rules not for their own faults)
Lanterns, torches, Campfires, alchemist fire. any spell that sets things on fire. you could literally bring the same campfire all day if you keep moving it at the same speed as a normal PC.
I think you may be right on water and ice being different. I remember JC saying something to that affect but couldn't find where.
Also, different bullets are distinctly different uses. You are absolutely correct on that.
However, your crude form should allow you to create solid water for one minute which is weird because it is exactly how ice would behave minus the heat absorption. As for going through the ice well.. you can shape the fire and focus the heat any way you want so as long as you create the fire it will help. This is why you have access to a hooded-lantern for setting up quick manipulation of the fire.
Yeah, I dont think melting ice is any issue. Its just a matter of reshaping it.
Also, I think one can validate the difference between water and ice in 4EM by looking at another ED. Shape of the Flowing River costs 1 ki and explicitly allows the reshaping / form changing of water to ice or vice versa along with other neat effects
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!