EDIT: I am totally fine if this thread devolves into a discussion of all the cool multiclasses you can do with monks. They are super cool, and I love seeing all the crazy stuff people come up with.
Hey y'all, I've been racking my brain for the last few days trying to decide what do for this monk character I have and I was wondering if you might be able to help me out with it.
I am considering a multi-class into Rogue and/or Ranger (Revised). Although it wasn't already discussed among my friends, I have also thought about Warlock. What is the most fun/interesting/awesome way to make a kind of ninja-Batman-assassin-like character? First, some background on the campaign and the character concept.
Background:
I'm going to be playing in a campaign, which starts in a subplane of the Shadowfell. Kind of a Barovia feel. My character for it is a Half-Orc Shadow Monk, trained by his master in the woods for an unknown purpose (legit I don't know). When he meets the rest of the party, he's actually just killed his master a few days prior after having been beaten one too many times. He's not very civilized, and at least at the beginning is borderline sociopathic. Character inspiration from Frankenstein's monster (as depicted in the book) and Caliban from The Tempest.
We are starting at level 13, and my DM has said that he doesn't expect us to be in this plane for more than one or two levels.
How I want it to play:
The way I imagine him playing in combat is kind of like a cat with its food.He is a hunter of men, a sadist. He likes to terrorize his opponents, using his Shadow Arts and teleporting capabilities to freak out a target before he strikes. Kind of like Batman in the Arkham game series, or like the terrorization options in Mark of the Ninja. I also would like him to have that assassin quality: when he strikes, he kills. I know there are some house rules for coup-de-grace, but I'd like to avoid house rules as much as possible.
Other things to consider:
My DM is usually very willing to use the Unearthed Arcana material.
He also uses the optional rules for Feats, and for one of my Ability Score Improvements I took Alert, both for flavor reasons and because the +5 Initiative is amazing for this kind of character in particular. The other Ability Score Improvement went to Dex. However, my core Ability Scores are not amazing.
My Ability Scores at level 13 (if I took two or three levels outside Monk) are Str 15, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12 (FYI we rolled stats).
DM house rule:
My DM has already said that he will make one house rule at least: he has added a Shadow Arts technique that for another 2 Ki, I can make it so I can see through my own magical darkness when I cast it. This came from both of us thinking it was kind of dumb for it not to be an option already.
The multi-class options:
The original multi-class I was thinking was Rogue (Assassin) 3, Monk (Shadow) 10. However, my DM has warned me that I would kick myself if I didn't have the level 11 Monk feature while we are in this constantly shadowy, dimly lit place, and as mentioned above we are probably not going to be here for more than one or two levels.
With that in mind, I'm currently thinking at this level Rogue 2, Monk 11. The big benefit this gives is Cunning Action and Expertise, which I would be taking in Intimidation and Stealth. That's probably what I'm going to do at this point, but I'm curious what the community thinks.
The Revised Ranger is also an option. Even a one level dip gets me Favored Enemy (Humanoid) and Natural Explorer, which both fit with the character concept of an assassin who has lived his whole life in the woods. Two levels and I get spellcasting so I can take Hunter's Mark, which adds a ton of damage on a Surprise Round Flurry of Blows, especially if I get to Rogue 3 and have Assassin's surprise Critical Hits. Three levels gets me the Deep Stalker Conclave, including Disguise Self and improved Darkvision among other things.
As far as Warlock...I haven't looked a ton into it, but Hexblade and the Devil's Sight invocation both seem very thematic. Also, can we all agree the Curse Bringer Invocation shouldn't be a greatsword?
The ask:
What do you guys think? What seems like the most bang for your buck at level 13?
I'd also like to start thinking about my future levels, planning out all the way to level 20. The biggest possible dip I'm considering is getting to Rogue 3 (Assassin), Ranger-Revised 3 (Deep Stalker), Monk 14 (Shadow). Maybe up to 4 in Rogue or Ranger just for the Ability Score Improvement. As I said, I haven't looked enough into the Hexblade or any other Warlock stuff to really be able to say.
I have my own ideas which I will likely add to the discussion later, but this post is already long enough, don't you think?
So the shadow monk build that I personally love for this is Monk 17/Warlock 3, the reason this works well, is that monk gives you certain tools like the feature that lets you teleport in darkness, the ability spend ki to drop darkness spells and so forth. Warlock helps you capitalize on them- you take devil's sight and now you can see through magical darkness for free (which, you're dropping all over the place for your shadowstep, though i guess your houserule might make this less valuable... but then again why waste 2 ki) and you can use the spell slots for stuff too- like Hex, or Darkness, utility spells etc. You also have access to other invocations- at-will detect magic, at-will disguise self, book of ancient secrets (the tome one, if i didn't quite recall the name) for rituals etc. Fiend is probably standard for thp on killing things is very useful for this get-in-the-backline-and-murder-people kind of build- Archfey is kind of cool from an rp perspective- an assassin with a mystical fear aura sounds cool too, and I can't remember what GOO does- undying could be good i guess, but only really in an undead oriented campaign, and even then it only starts to get in the same ballpark as the other options.
Pact of the blade is flavorful (and fine) and will make you feel like a mythical ninja pulling blades made from shadows and reshaping them at a whim for the kill, but it doesn't have a lot of synergy with anything you're doing mechanically since you don't even really use your weapon's dice once martial arts gets going- chain or tome can probably do more for you, but then again, at this point so long as you have decent ability scores you're probably fine- half orc is a little sub-optimal, but so long as you have your 16 Dex/16 Wis/14 Cha at some point (the last before you multiclass!) not too many levels in, you should be fine, i personally run this build as a half drow to make my stats easier to get, and to give me drow magic to get me ahead of the ki curve and spell slots on darkness without sunlight sensitivity.
Thank you for the response! I will definitely take a look at the Warlock a bit more before we start. I noticed you didn't mention any Unearthed Arcana subclasses—is that because you don't read them or because you don't think they are applicable here?
Thank you for the response! I will definitely take a look at the Warlock a bit more before we start. I noticed you didn't mention any Unearthed Arcana subclasses—is that because you don't read them or because you don't think they are applicable here?
They aren't applicable- none of them synergize very well with the monk from what I remember, hexblade wants you to invest charisma or strength, but you're stuck with dex because you're still a monk, raven queen patron isn't very good, you don't do a lot with light as a shadow monk so undying light is out. I don't remember seeker very well, but it's also worth noting that most DM's don't allow UA, and many of the ones that do won't let you multiclass it because the devs have stated that the UA stuff isn't intended to be ready for it.
3 rogue/6 monk seems solid, and if you use feats you have alot of nice options at the expense of stat increases such as Alert, Defensive dualist, mage slayer and magic initiate (prestidigitaion, mage hand and mage armor)
i use this for a base for a NPC faction in my campaign
depending on the campaign and the DM there might be limitations to the lvl of min/max murderhoboing.and other limitations for multiclassing
I think a straight monk will be good enough. Path without trace is everything you need for stealth. Pushing your level 14 feature back is not the best idea.
Also level 12 will give you a much welcome ability score increase.
Since your stats are int 12 and cha 12, warlock and wizard are out. If you really want to multiclass, I guess rogue 1 for expertise in stealth and 1d6 sneak attack is not the worst idea. You can later add some more levels of rogue. I personally would aim for rogue 4 or 5 depending on how much you value wisdom 20 or uncanny dodge and 1d6 more damage per round.
I believe that the level 2 rogue's cunning action will alleviate the ki point cost and if you were to go for example swashbuckler rogue at level 3 instead of assassin for the auto crit, you will be hypermobile in the sense that you no longer need to spend a bonus action to disengage while safely moving away from your target.
Raven Queen is a more exploration focused Patron, but for all that I'd strongly disagree that it "isn't very good". I'd say that it's even with Fey and Hexblade for a build like this.
Tome and Chain are both good options for the Pact boon, depending on what you want out of it.
I am well on my way to this. Human variant Monk 6/ Fiend Warlock 2. Next level will be to Warlock. Devils Sight and Eldritch Sight are great. Still figuring him out.
Thematically, what type of Ninja character do you want to play?
Ranger or Druid multiclass makes me think of some anime, mostly Naruto, because of the additional magical capabilities to supplement your actions. Favored Terrain/Land Circle may represent the village that raised you.
Fighter multiclass makes me think of Ryu Hayabusa from Ninja Gaiden.
Rogue multiclass makes me think of generic ninja bad guys from movies and cartoons.
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"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
Mage armor is useless for a monk as it doesn't stack with unarmed defense. unless your wisdom is under a 3, it's not needed.
why doesn't it work?
They are both giving you new AC calculations, rather than just bonuses. You have to pick between if you use 10 + Dex + Wis OR 13 + Dex. If the monk's unarmed defense were to stack it would have to be something like "While unarmored, you can add your Wis bonus to your AC" making it be treated like wearing a shield.
I'm personally a big fan of going Ranger 3/Monk X or Ranger 3/Rogue 1/Monk X. Mainly the Hunter Ranger, being able to add an extra 1d8+1d6 to all four unarmed attacks you can do in a turn adds up pretty quickly, averaging something like an extra 30ish damage a round. Ranger has a number of other decent archetypes but Hunter's on hit just adds up much better offensively and the Shadow Monk gives you a decent package for the rest of the thing's you'd like to do. Warlock just doesn't stack up very well damage wise but if you really like the invocations then maybe you'll find it worthwhile, since your Cha is garbage because of how MAD that would end up. Rogue is basically just there for Expertise, since the bonus action teleport is likely to be superior to cunning action in a lot of cases.
Mage armor is useless for a monk as it doesn't stack with unarmed defense. unless your wisdom is under a 3, it's not needed.
why doesn't it work?
They are both giving you new AC calculations, rather than just bonuses. You have to pick between if you use 10 + Dex + Wis OR 13 + Dex. If the monk's unarmed defense were to stack it would have to be something like "While unarmored, you can add your Wis bonus to your AC" making it be treated like wearing a shield.
While that is a valid interpretation, I'm not entirely sure that it's the only valid interpretation. Has that been confirmed anywhere?
I'm just getting back into the game after many years away and AC calcs are completely different than they were before. Most AC calcs I've seen so far are X+Dex, unless you are in armor that does not allow you to use your dex modifier or there's a spell like barkskin that says specifically "your AC is no lower than 16 regardless of armor."
Mage Armor, in contrast, says your "base AC becomes 13+ dex mod." "Base AC" says to me that it is still open for further modifiers, such as a shield or a monk's unarmored AC bonus. Also, the logic of your interpretation says a character in armor would not be affected by Mage Armor by default since the spell give you a "new AC Calculation." Why add the specific disclaimer that putting on armor ends the spell if the spell by its very nature does not work while in armor?
So now we have: Normal unarmored AC: 10+Dex
Monk unarmored AC: 10+Dex+Wis
Normal studded leather: 12+Dex
Monk studded leather: 12+Dex
Normal plate: 18
Monk plate: 18
Normal mage armor: 13+Dex
Monk mage armor: 13+Dex+Wis
I'm not saying it is 100% that I am correct, just that it all fits. So, I ask again, has it been confirmed anywhere by official sources that a monk does not get the extra protection from Mage Armor, or is that just the general consensus?
It has been confirmed, it's a basic gameplay mechanic. https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-january-2016 The wording of monk's unarmored defense presents it as an option for calculating your AC just like mage armor does. It would need to be worded as just a bonus equal to your _____ modifier.
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EDIT: I am totally fine if this thread devolves into a discussion of all the cool multiclasses you can do with monks. They are super cool, and I love seeing all the crazy stuff people come up with.
Hey y'all, I've been racking my brain for the last few days trying to decide what do for this monk character I have and I was wondering if you might be able to help me out with it.
I am considering a multi-class into Rogue and/or Ranger (Revised). Although it wasn't already discussed among my friends, I have also thought about Warlock. What is the most fun/interesting/awesome way to make a kind of ninja-Batman-assassin-like character? First, some background on the campaign and the character concept.
Background:
I'm going to be playing in a campaign, which starts in a subplane of the Shadowfell. Kind of a Barovia feel. My character for it is a Half-Orc Shadow Monk, trained by his master in the woods for an unknown purpose (legit I don't know). When he meets the rest of the party, he's actually just killed his master a few days prior after having been beaten one too many times. He's not very civilized, and at least at the beginning is borderline sociopathic. Character inspiration from Frankenstein's monster (as depicted in the book) and Caliban from The Tempest.
We are starting at level 13, and my DM has said that he doesn't expect us to be in this plane for more than one or two levels.
How I want it to play:
The way I imagine him playing in combat is kind of like a cat with its food.He is a hunter of men, a sadist. He likes to terrorize his opponents, using his Shadow Arts and teleporting capabilities to freak out a target before he strikes. Kind of like Batman in the Arkham game series, or like the terrorization options in Mark of the Ninja. I also would like him to have that assassin quality: when he strikes, he kills. I know there are some house rules for coup-de-grace, but I'd like to avoid house rules as much as possible.
Other things to consider:
My DM is usually very willing to use the Unearthed Arcana material.
He also uses the optional rules for Feats, and for one of my Ability Score Improvements I took Alert, both for flavor reasons and because the +5 Initiative is amazing for this kind of character in particular. The other Ability Score Improvement went to Dex. However, my core Ability Scores are not amazing.
My Ability Scores at level 13 (if I took two or three levels outside Monk) are Str 15, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12 (FYI we rolled stats).
DM house rule:
My DM has already said that he will make one house rule at least: he has added a Shadow Arts technique that for another 2 Ki, I can make it so I can see through my own magical darkness when I cast it. This came from both of us thinking it was kind of dumb for it not to be an option already.
The multi-class options:
The original multi-class I was thinking was Rogue (Assassin) 3, Monk (Shadow) 10. However, my DM has warned me that I would kick myself if I didn't have the level 11 Monk feature while we are in this constantly shadowy, dimly lit place, and as mentioned above we are probably not going to be here for more than one or two levels.
With that in mind, I'm currently thinking at this level Rogue 2, Monk 11. The big benefit this gives is Cunning Action and Expertise, which I would be taking in Intimidation and Stealth. That's probably what I'm going to do at this point, but I'm curious what the community thinks.
The Revised Ranger is also an option. Even a one level dip gets me Favored Enemy (Humanoid) and Natural Explorer, which both fit with the character concept of an assassin who has lived his whole life in the woods. Two levels and I get spellcasting so I can take Hunter's Mark, which adds a ton of damage on a Surprise Round Flurry of Blows, especially if I get to Rogue 3 and have Assassin's surprise Critical Hits. Three levels gets me the Deep Stalker Conclave, including Disguise Self and improved Darkvision among other things.
As far as Warlock...I haven't looked a ton into it, but Hexblade and the Devil's Sight invocation both seem very thematic. Also, can we all agree the Curse Bringer Invocation shouldn't be a greatsword?
The ask:
What do you guys think? What seems like the most bang for your buck at level 13?
I'd also like to start thinking about my future levels, planning out all the way to level 20. The biggest possible dip I'm considering is getting to Rogue 3 (Assassin), Ranger-Revised 3 (Deep Stalker), Monk 14 (Shadow). Maybe up to 4 in Rogue or Ranger just for the Ability Score Improvement. As I said, I haven't looked enough into the Hexblade or any other Warlock stuff to really be able to say.
I have my own ideas which I will likely add to the discussion later, but this post is already long enough, don't you think?
Thank you all so much in advance.
For a deeper dive into the option of Multiclassing Ranger, I wrote this up for my friends. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_NwNu-5muztWzKS_jxqnAADWqqQ1_x74d3b13yFKw_I/edit?usp=sharing
So the shadow monk build that I personally love for this is Monk 17/Warlock 3, the reason this works well, is that monk gives you certain tools like the feature that lets you teleport in darkness, the ability spend ki to drop darkness spells and so forth. Warlock helps you capitalize on them- you take devil's sight and now you can see through magical darkness for free (which, you're dropping all over the place for your shadowstep, though i guess your houserule might make this less valuable... but then again why waste 2 ki) and you can use the spell slots for stuff too- like Hex, or Darkness, utility spells etc. You also have access to other invocations- at-will detect magic, at-will disguise self, book of ancient secrets (the tome one, if i didn't quite recall the name) for rituals etc. Fiend is probably standard for thp on killing things is very useful for this get-in-the-backline-and-murder-people kind of build- Archfey is kind of cool from an rp perspective- an assassin with a mystical fear aura sounds cool too, and I can't remember what GOO does- undying could be good i guess, but only really in an undead oriented campaign, and even then it only starts to get in the same ballpark as the other options.
Pact of the blade is flavorful (and fine) and will make you feel like a mythical ninja pulling blades made from shadows and reshaping them at a whim for the kill, but it doesn't have a lot of synergy with anything you're doing mechanically since you don't even really use your weapon's dice once martial arts gets going- chain or tome can probably do more for you, but then again, at this point so long as you have decent ability scores you're probably fine- half orc is a little sub-optimal, but so long as you have your 16 Dex/16 Wis/14 Cha at some point (the last before you multiclass!) not too many levels in, you should be fine, i personally run this build as a half drow to make my stats easier to get, and to give me drow magic to get me ahead of the ki curve and spell slots on darkness without sunlight sensitivity.
Thank you for the response! I will definitely take a look at the Warlock a bit more before we start. I noticed you didn't mention any Unearthed Arcana subclasses—is that because you don't read them or because you don't think they are applicable here?
3 rogue/6 monk seems solid, and if you use feats you have alot of nice options at the expense of stat increases such as Alert, Defensive dualist, mage slayer and magic initiate (prestidigitaion, mage hand and mage armor)
i use this for a base for a NPC faction in my campaign
depending on the campaign and the DM there might be limitations to the lvl of min/max murderhoboing.and other limitations for multiclassing
I think a straight monk will be good enough. Path without trace is everything you need for stealth. Pushing your level 14 feature back is not the best idea.
Also level 12 will give you a much welcome ability score increase.
Since your stats are int 12 and cha 12, warlock and wizard are out. If you really want to multiclass, I guess rogue 1 for expertise in stealth and 1d6 sneak attack is not the worst idea. You can later add some more levels of rogue. I personally would aim for rogue 4 or 5 depending on how much you value wisdom 20 or uncanny dodge and 1d6 more damage per round.
Mage armor is useless for a monk as it doesn't stack with unarmed defense. unless your wisdom is under a 3, it's not needed.
I believe that the level 2 rogue's cunning action will alleviate the ki point cost and if you were to go for example swashbuckler rogue at level 3 instead of assassin for the auto crit, you will be hypermobile in the sense that you no longer need to spend a bonus action to disengage while safely moving away from your target.
Raven Queen is a more exploration focused Patron, but for all that I'd strongly disagree that it "isn't very good". I'd say that it's even with Fey and Hexblade for a build like this.
Tome and Chain are both good options for the Pact boon, depending on what you want out of it.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
I am well on my way to this. Human variant Monk 6/ Fiend Warlock 2. Next level will be to Warlock. Devils Sight and Eldritch Sight are great. Still figuring him out.
Thematically, what type of Ninja character do you want to play?
Ranger or Druid multiclass makes me think of some anime, mostly Naruto, because of the additional magical capabilities to supplement your actions. Favored Terrain/Land Circle may represent the village that raised you.
Fighter multiclass makes me think of Ryu Hayabusa from Ninja Gaiden.
Rogue multiclass makes me think of generic ninja bad guys from movies and cartoons.
"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
the two multi class characters i have worked out is a "ninja" style rogue(assassin)/monk(shadow) and a war dancer bard(sword college)/monk(kensei)
Alas.. the creation has been aborted. My character was ripped apart by a demon.
im pretty sure you could make a slight alteration of the hounds talk with aria when she talks to him about her training..
something in the lines of: the demon had tought hide and sharp f***ing claws! xD
why doesn't it work?
They are both giving you new AC calculations, rather than just bonuses. You have to pick between if you use 10 + Dex + Wis OR 13 + Dex. If the monk's unarmed defense were to stack it would have to be something like "While unarmored, you can add your Wis bonus to your AC" making it be treated like wearing a shield.
I'm personally a big fan of going Ranger 3/Monk X or Ranger 3/Rogue 1/Monk X. Mainly the Hunter Ranger, being able to add an extra 1d8+1d6 to all four unarmed attacks you can do in a turn adds up pretty quickly, averaging something like an extra 30ish damage a round. Ranger has a number of other decent archetypes but Hunter's on hit just adds up much better offensively and the Shadow Monk gives you a decent package for the rest of the thing's you'd like to do. Warlock just doesn't stack up very well damage wise but if you really like the invocations then maybe you'll find it worthwhile, since your Cha is garbage because of how MAD that would end up. Rogue is basically just there for Expertise, since the bonus action teleport is likely to be superior to cunning action in a lot of cases.
if you want to go the magic initiate route, shield of faith or protection from evil and good is pretty neat
While that is a valid interpretation, I'm not entirely sure that it's the only valid interpretation. Has that been confirmed anywhere?
I'm just getting back into the game after many years away and AC calcs are completely different than they were before. Most AC calcs I've seen so far are X+Dex, unless you are in armor that does not allow you to use your dex modifier or there's a spell like barkskin that says specifically "your AC is no lower than 16 regardless of armor."
Mage Armor, in contrast, says your "base AC becomes 13+ dex mod." "Base AC" says to me that it is still open for further modifiers, such as a shield or a monk's unarmored AC bonus. Also, the logic of your interpretation says a character in armor would not be affected by Mage Armor by default since the spell give you a "new AC Calculation." Why add the specific disclaimer that putting on armor ends the spell if the spell by its very nature does not work while in armor?
So now we have:
Normal unarmored AC: 10+Dex
Monk unarmored AC: 10+Dex+Wis
Normal studded leather: 12+Dex
Monk studded leather: 12+Dex
Normal plate: 18
Monk plate: 18
Normal mage armor: 13+Dex
Monk mage armor: 13+Dex+Wis
I'm not saying it is 100% that I am correct, just that it all fits. So, I ask again, has it been confirmed anywhere by official sources that a monk does not get the extra protection from Mage Armor, or is that just the general consensus?
It has been confirmed, it's a basic gameplay mechanic. https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-january-2016 The wording of monk's unarmored defense presents it as an option for calculating your AC just like mage armor does. It would need to be worded as just a bonus equal to your _____ modifier.