Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Greetings. Know it's fairly common to homebrew buffs for Monks or at least discuss it. Curious to hear thoughts on any of these:
1. d10 hit dice
2. +WIS mod to Focus Point total
3. Way: A) Athlete: gain Tavern Brawler feat; B) Student: gain 1 Monk skill & +2 WIS saves
4. Focused Skill: Spend 1 Focus Point to re-roll skill check
5. Weapon Mastery: Nick, Push, Slow, Sap, Topple, Vex. Levels: 1 (1), 7 (2), 13 (3)
6. Disciplined Training: Can replace Weapon Mastery with +1 to DEX or CON or WIS
I'd say that 5.5 monks are pretty solid as they are. Do you give other classes extra benefits?
Anyway:
1) 5.5 monks have deflect attacks for their resiliency. It's pretty solid.
2) This is very good at low levels, and by mid-levels it's kind of a nonentity, unless you run a lot of combats between short rests.
3) I don't think these are very equivalent -- TB is kind of meh for a monk, particularly an open hand or elements one.
4) This is the most interesting, because it gives them better non-combat performance, which is where they're somewhat lacking (if you can't make good use of mobility OOC), but it seems way too good for the cost, even if it's limited to one try per skill check.
5) Weapon mastery goes poorly with the class fantasy, and it's inherently limited to the non-bonus-action attacks. My view may partially be because I'm playing elements, but I just don't see a need for masteries for a monk.
6) This is way better than mastery
General question: Monks, even with their big glow up, are arguably still weaker than many martials, which are generally weaker than casters. I'd probably want to buff Rogues and Barbarians as well. Obviously your mileage may vary, this is just a brainstorm.
1. Agree Deflect Attacks is good. But it's been pretty well pointed out that this doesn't scale so great over time and uses your Reaction. A d10 to match other martials seems thematically appropriate for a class that seems about physical training & resiliency. To me makes more sense for a Monk to have the hit dice of a Ranger & Fighter than a Rogue & Warlock. Mechanically, Monks also cannot afford high CON to mitigate the d8, especially if they want to take a feat at level 4, like Grappler, a key Monk feat.
2. WIS mod to FPs is the only of these homebrews I am currently playing with, and it has felt really helpful to help allow the Monk to do their cool Monk things. +3 is pretty modest but gives a decent floor.
3. Yeah not too hung up on the exact construction here. I've toyed with the idea that Monks should just get Tavern Brawler as standard to kinda serve as their Weapon Mastery but figured the choice could be cool. The skill thing doesn't need to get bundled with the WIS saves. The WIS saves was just another way to help make the Monk feel like a Monk that is a bit more resilient in thematically appropriate way.
4. Skills - Monks' utility here is actually not the best. There should be some way to help them be more skilled without just throwing expertises at them like they are Rogues or Rangers. I may add that each subclass could provide an appropriate skill, like how Mercy grants Insight & Medicine. Mabye Shadow could get Stealth, Four Elements could get Arcana or Nature. Something that makes sense. But focusing their Monk energy into a skill check seems most mechanically appropriate. Maybe just limit it to once per Short or Long Rest?
5. Weapon Mastery - surprising take, many really seem to feel this is a glaring omission for Monks. Other than perhaps Fighters, they present as one of the most training oriented. They surely deserve something, even if not that maximal list, maybe just for their unarmed strikes. I had thought Tavern Brawler could also just serve as that. But it makes total sense for a Monk to be pushing or toppling enemies at the least. Just having one or two seems way more reasonable than zero.
6. Stat boosts - possibly the hottest take, but it is based on three main factors: A) Need - Monks are arguably the MADest class in the game. They simply must raise their stats at each ASI to stay relevant. Which means no feats, except maybe level 4, but you're likely sacrificing CON to do so. That's very limiting on a class that already has lots of limits. Players should have the freedom to make choices & customize their builds. A simple +1 here & there would allow Monks to take feats or raise their stats a bit more quickly. B) Precedent - other related classes like Fighters & Rogues get full extra ASIs. Not proposing the same for a Monk - shouldn't step on the Fighter's toes. A full ASI is of course +2 or +1/+1 or a whole feat. I'm just talking about a stock +1 to reflect a Monk's training. C) Thematically - again Monks are the disciplined trainers of all the classes. It makes total sense for them to be honing their physical & mental prowess. If the Rogue can get a full extra ASI, surely a Monk could get something similar?
1) Monks are generally better skirmishers than front-line tanks. The D8 hit dies makes more sense thematically as they are more traditionally more agile than tanky.
2) Giving this kind of bonus makes a huge difference at low levels, and is mostly irrelevant by the time you get to tier 3 of play or so. It would make players much more likely to multiclass out of Monk at level 5 or so instead of playing straight class. I generally dislike features that promote multiclassing by being too front-loaded.
3) Getting an extra Origin feat for free, especially a designated one, feels uninspired and tries even harder to pigeonhole players into a certain playstyle. As far as the second option, I would just change the class to be proficient in Dexterity and Wisdom saving throws instead Dexterity and Strength saves. The rest of the classes generally get 1 good save (Dex, Wis, or Con) and one less good save (Str, Int, or Cha). Giving them both Dex and Wis would be both thematic and a little stronger defensively.
4) Focused skill is an interesting idea, and a nice bump for those important skill checks. I would limit this to make it once per check like all other similar features, and maybe give them a bonus to the check equal to their Wisdom mod.
5) As a purely martial class (barring subclasses), I think it makes sense to give them Weapon Masteries. I wouldn't limit it by specific masteries as you have it listed, but rather limit it to Monk Weapons, and give them 2 masteries at Monk level 1 (similar to most other martials like Rogues).
6) I am not a fan of features that can increase raw stats at early levels. Many tables use point buy for stats because it puts everyone on a level playing field stat-wise. Making Monk the only class that can have higher than a 17 in a stat before level 4 introduces a power imbalance. Also, if you give this at levels 1/2, it will promote multiclass dips to grab those extra easy-access stat points.
Good thoughts.
1) Saying Monks have to be skirmishers is to me far more pigeonholing than granting them a particular origin feat. They're fast, sure, and they have some mobility options, but it's pretty clear they dramatically take away from their damage output, which is mainly based on multiple attacks, which you can't do if you are constantly disengaging, etc.
More generally, how effective or actionable is skirmishing as a strategy? There's no guarantee that your party makeup or most battles will allow this to be effective or even terribly doable. I'm 10 levels into a Monk, and I can say as one of the melees, I am often needed to stand in and deal dmg & take hits. Running all over the place has rarely seemed strategic. That said, a d10 is no cure-all anyway - not the hill I'd die on, but it still seems more intuitive than a d8 for reasons stated.
2) Forgot about multiclassing. I'm not suggesting hard & fast rules. Since this is all homebrew, could just stipulate only applies if you don't multiclass. On timing, early is when the boost is needed most. It's a flat bonus of +3 that doesn't scale until you raise it, likely at level 12. Seems pretty sensible.
3) Don't care about Tavern Brawler all that much. Would prefer Weapon Mastery. On WIS save proficiency, I think it thematically makes sense, but as others point out, Monk would be the only class that is proficient in two key saves from the start. That seems like a hard pattern to break. Just thought something made sense.
4) I like this idea as well. WIS bonus to skill also sounds right. Modest but meaningful. Again put limits to it, once per check, once per Short or Long Rest.
5) Forgot Rogues got Weapon Masteries. Yeah Monks should totally get that, equal amount, limited to Monk Weapons/unarmed strikes.
6) Fair point. I'm not wed to the early boost. More interested in later as a reflection of training over time vs. some innate power. You just want it early enough to still be relevant (so like 7 & 13?). And again since homebrewing, could just stipulate this is only for singleclass Monk.
I'm curious what makes you say that.
They probably don't fare as well from an optimization standpoint, but that's not the same thing as being weaker. They're the utility infielder of martials -- if you need somebody to fill in any given martial role, the monk can do it, usually from their baseline abilities. They don't tank as well as the tanks, nor strike as well as the strikers, nor control as well as the controllers, but they can do it all moderately well.
Grappler's not that key, and very playstyle-dependent.
They don't have weapon masteries because they're the class that doesn't have to use weapons.
It's a matter of game design. If they had been given weapon masteries, they would've been weakened elsewhere to compensate. It would not have been a freebie. And then you have an ability that you don't use if you're playing to the class fantasy, instead of a more general ability that's useful whether or not you use weapons.
The rogue and fighter get those ASIs because they're otherwise lacking in stuff. They're designed simple, with fewer inherent extra abilities than other classes. They get ASIs where others would get a whole new power. (And the expectation is that they will use those on feats.)
And yes, monks are very prone to taking stat bumps, and that isn't ideal, and they're kind of light on non-combat utility (except for mobility, which is not nothing). But I don't know what I'd have removed from the design in exchange.
You don't have to take Grappler. Just a common example. Basic point being the ASI demands close to lock you out of taking feats, and that is less fun design. That said, Grappler has obvious synergy with Monk's unarmed attacks and gives it some control options.
Not having Weapon Masteries because they don't have to use weapons is a non-sequitur. They can use weapons, and as a martial should have at least minimal access to some masteries. Again, some Mastery-type effects for a Monk's unarmed strikes is fairly intuitive. As a class they are masters of unarmed combat. That should be reflected in more than just a growing damage die.
I don't think I'd exchange out anything really. The idea was to buff them in ways that seem intuitive and helpful for a more enjoyable experience. That's not to be conflated with no weaknesses. (e.g. Sequilonis' skill idea is modest, not outshining Rogues' skill expertises, but provides a little something, much like Barbarians' Primal Knowledge). But odd exemptions and aspects that kind of lock you out of choices are limiting design.
As for Monks compared to other classes, I mostly agree with your summary description - rather than just skirmishers, they can kind of do several things decently. I defend Monks regularly. That said, Fighters can easily replicate their own control effects via feats and/or subclasses, while having superior damage, HP, AC, and saves (thanks to Indomitable coming on at 9 versus Monks' Disciplined Survivor much later at level 14). As mentioned above, I think Rogues & Barbarians could use some buffs as well.
So: a d10 hit die, +3 Focus Points, a couple Weapon Masteries, a once per Short Rest +3 to a skill check at the cost of one Focus Point - all of that together is hardly earth shattering. I guess the +1 to a stat could be a bit fiddly to balance maybe? But when compared to casters, the needle aint' movin that much honestly.