First time poster here. I'm thinking about building my second 5e character, currently having lots of fun with a mastermind rogue/raven queen warlock. I like being sneaky, outwitting foes and having some magic at my disposal to make things more interesting, and basically being able to manipulate a situation to my advantage whether in a social, exploration or combat situation. I've had a look at various builds but for now I want to focus on a shadow monk.
I like the class, it has lots of cool features every level and shadow step especially sounds like a lot of fun. My RP idea is that he's a noble who had to run away to sea (not sure exactly why yet), but his pursuers eventually found him and he took refuge in a hermitage devoted to Oghma and the deities of knowledge. In return for this he trained as a sort of shadowy agent and gatherer of knowledge, and is now on a pilgrimage/quest to gather that knowledge from the world. I really like the hook but I'm struggling with the mechanics.
The problem is, I foresee the monk being a bit of a one-trick pony, especially in combat. I'm planning on going variant human for the skilled feat to be a good skill monkey, but it still seems weak in that regard compared to a rogue, especially since it lacks expertise. In addition, in combat it doesn't seem to outshine the rogue either, as it has to use ki to disengage, dash etc which the rogue can do for free, I can't take mobility as the ASIs are needed for the class's MADness, and the extra attacks don't really make up for sneak attack, and don't benefit from anything like Booming Blade (which my mastermind has) as it doesn't work with extra attack. So Stunning Attack seems to be the only advantage and against multiple foes I would have to be burning a lot of ki to disengage and not end up getting ganked. The rogue just seems to do both combat and skills at least as well and in a more flexible way, and it's easier to multiclass to get more out of it since the rogue isn't MAD. It seems like I would just be taking monk because of shadow step and running up vertical walls and slow falling down them is cool, however often I actually get to do that.
Currently my half-solution is to take a 1-2 level dip into knowledge cleric, mainly for RP but the expertise in arcana and religion would be nice and Command and Identify are cool things to have, alongside bonus action Healing Word and maybe Bane to help with Stunning Attack. Oh and Guidance, of course. I would have gone cleric with just a monk dip because the 6th level feature Read Thoughts is so cool but most of the cleric spell list doesn't interest me too much. But it doesn't feel very synergistic, since it's delaying key monk features like Extra and Stunning Attack and ki points, and the most useful cleric spells are concentration. And Knowledge of the Ages would be super-awesome if it didn't only last 10 minutes. I really like the combo for RP, but I don't want to feel handicapped/like a one-hit wonder in combat.
Anyone played with anything like this? Can you compare it to rogue or other sort-of gishy builds? How much fun is it if you like RP and creative solutions to problems rather than just hitting things? Any other monk-based build suggestions?
Cheers!
EDIT: re-reading this I realise it may seem like I'm asking a bit much of the monk. Do I just need to accept that being a monk is all about the stunning strike?
One thing I see a lot is people saying that a Monk isn't quite as deadly as a rogue, doesn't do quite as much damage as a fighter, has to burn Ki to disengage, doesn't have quite as much HP as a paladin, not quite as much AC as a tank..etc...
What is missing is understanding that not many other characters can do all of this "second best". As a shadow monk, you can do good (but not best) damage, good (but not best) field control, good but not best AC, good but not best tanking...
Being able to cast Darkness, Silence is really solid in combat. Teleportation as a bonus action is sick. 1 Ki for disadvantage on attacks against you is pretty awesome, especially if you get your DEX and WIS up for a solid AC. Pass without a Trace is amazing. Minor Illusion is fun. Immunity to disease and poison, 1 action to end fear and charm is sick.
I'm a level 9 shadow monk currently. Everything I can do now is extremely fun and rewarding personally. I really look forward to being able to go invisible. After that, Observant feat for lip reading...which leads right into Tongue of the Sun and Moon, meaning you can lip read anyone.
I could go on, but if we do go to end game, I plan to take at least 1 dip into Cleric as well, primarily because the 20th level cap stone is pretty weak for monks.
I guess my problem was not that I wanted the monk to be best at any one thing, but rather for it not to be completely overshadowed by another class like the rogue, or overshadowed except for one trick (i.e. stunning strike) - it's easy for a rogue to have the same or higher hit points (can spend on CON rather than WIS), same or higher AC (can focus on DEX and use armour), do more damage (focusing on DEX and with sneak attack) and be more mobile in combat (or tanky with dodge), have far more skills, and get useful spells if you're an arcane trickster, or multiclassing which is easier since you're not already MAD. But I think you're right in that I was undervaluing the shadow monk spells and teleport abilities. Problem is I'm expecting to be playing at tier 1 and 2 and at these levels the ki cost for the spells detracts usage of ki in combat significantly, and the teleport ability conflicts with ki bonus action usage. But actually, looking at this another way, Shadow Step actually frees up those ki points to be used on spells instead.
And yeah, the abilities are so flavourful which was why I was considering the class in the first place despite my reservations. But screw it, the class looks loads of fun and well put together, and I'd rather the variety than playing rogue twice.
Hi guys,
First time poster here. I'm thinking about building my second 5e character, currently having lots of fun with a mastermind rogue/raven queen warlock. I like being sneaky, outwitting foes and having some magic at my disposal to make things more interesting, and basically being able to manipulate a situation to my advantage whether in a social, exploration or combat situation. I've had a look at various builds but for now I want to focus on a shadow monk.
I like the class, it has lots of cool features every level and shadow step especially sounds like a lot of fun. My RP idea is that he's a noble who had to run away to sea (not sure exactly why yet), but his pursuers eventually found him and he took refuge in a hermitage devoted to Oghma and the deities of knowledge. In return for this he trained as a sort of shadowy agent and gatherer of knowledge, and is now on a pilgrimage/quest to gather that knowledge from the world. I really like the hook but I'm struggling with the mechanics.
The problem is, I foresee the monk being a bit of a one-trick pony, especially in combat. I'm planning on going variant human for the skilled feat to be a good skill monkey, but it still seems weak in that regard compared to a rogue, especially since it lacks expertise. In addition, in combat it doesn't seem to outshine the rogue either, as it has to use ki to disengage, dash etc which the rogue can do for free, I can't take mobility as the ASIs are needed for the class's MADness, and the extra attacks don't really make up for sneak attack, and don't benefit from anything like Booming Blade (which my mastermind has) as it doesn't work with extra attack. So Stunning Attack seems to be the only advantage and against multiple foes I would have to be burning a lot of ki to disengage and not end up getting ganked. The rogue just seems to do both combat and skills at least as well and in a more flexible way, and it's easier to multiclass to get more out of it since the rogue isn't MAD. It seems like I would just be taking monk because of shadow step and running up vertical walls and slow falling down them is cool, however often I actually get to do that.
Currently my half-solution is to take a 1-2 level dip into knowledge cleric, mainly for RP but the expertise in arcana and religion would be nice and Command and Identify are cool things to have, alongside bonus action Healing Word and maybe Bane to help with Stunning Attack. Oh and Guidance, of course. I would have gone cleric with just a monk dip because the 6th level feature Read Thoughts is so cool but most of the cleric spell list doesn't interest me too much. But it doesn't feel very synergistic, since it's delaying key monk features like Extra and Stunning Attack and ki points, and the most useful cleric spells are concentration. And Knowledge of the Ages would be super-awesome if it didn't only last 10 minutes. I really like the combo for RP, but I don't want to feel handicapped/like a one-hit wonder in combat.
Anyone played with anything like this? Can you compare it to rogue or other sort-of gishy builds? How much fun is it if you like RP and creative solutions to problems rather than just hitting things? Any other monk-based build suggestions?
Cheers!
EDIT: re-reading this I realise it may seem like I'm asking a bit much of the monk. Do I just need to accept that being a monk is all about the stunning strike?
One thing I see a lot is people saying that a Monk isn't quite as deadly as a rogue, doesn't do quite as much damage as a fighter, has to burn Ki to disengage, doesn't have quite as much HP as a paladin, not quite as much AC as a tank..etc...
What is missing is understanding that not many other characters can do all of this "second best". As a shadow monk, you can do good (but not best) damage, good (but not best) field control, good but not best AC, good but not best tanking...
Being able to cast Darkness, Silence is really solid in combat. Teleportation as a bonus action is sick. 1 Ki for disadvantage on attacks against you is pretty awesome, especially if you get your DEX and WIS up for a solid AC. Pass without a Trace is amazing. Minor Illusion is fun. Immunity to disease and poison, 1 action to end fear and charm is sick.
I'm a level 9 shadow monk currently. Everything I can do now is extremely fun and rewarding personally. I really look forward to being able to go invisible. After that, Observant feat for lip reading...which leads right into Tongue of the Sun and Moon, meaning you can lip read anyone.
I could go on, but if we do go to end game, I plan to take at least 1 dip into Cleric as well, primarily because the 20th level cap stone is pretty weak for monks.
Thanks for the reply.
I guess my problem was not that I wanted the monk to be best at any one thing, but rather for it not to be completely overshadowed by another class like the rogue, or overshadowed except for one trick (i.e. stunning strike) - it's easy for a rogue to have the same or higher hit points (can spend on CON rather than WIS), same or higher AC (can focus on DEX and use armour), do more damage (focusing on DEX and with sneak attack) and be more mobile in combat (or tanky with dodge), have far more skills, and get useful spells if you're an arcane trickster, or multiclassing which is easier since you're not already MAD. But I think you're right in that I was undervaluing the shadow monk spells and teleport abilities. Problem is I'm expecting to be playing at tier 1 and 2 and at these levels the ki cost for the spells detracts usage of ki in combat significantly, and the teleport ability conflicts with ki bonus action usage. But actually, looking at this another way, Shadow Step actually frees up those ki points to be used on spells instead.
And yeah, the abilities are so flavourful which was why I was considering the class in the first place despite my reservations. But screw it, the class looks loads of fun and well put together, and I'd rather the variety than playing rogue twice.