Quote from Fateless>>Arguably the most valuable thing that an Assassin brings to the table is at level 5 with extra attack.
The **** did you get the idea that the assassin rogue gets extra attack? They don’t even have a level 5 subclass ability.
Did you just not read the first two paragraphs of their post? They are talking about what dipping 3 levels into Rogue for SA/Assassinate, and what that brings to the table for up to 17 levels in Monk. They are saying what Assassin brings is most valuable when the main class (Monk) is level 5, and Monks do get extra attack at that point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It's already been said, but both the Rogue and Monk classes require heavy investment in order to play optimally. Monks need their ki points and martial arts damage die, rogues their sneak attack. That's not to say that someone can't do a 10/10 or 11/9 split, but the issues do exist.
That said, going 1-3 levels in either direction doesn't often hurt too much. Assassin 3 works nicely for a stealth-heavy build, and what can't be cheesed this way can often be momentarily bypassed. Shadow Monk 3 gives a nice assortment of spells that make a Rogue's job easier. Minor illusion has many useful applications, and pass w/o trace with expertise in stealth is extremely hard to detect.
Monk 5 gives extra attack and stunning strike. More opprotunities to hit a sneak attack is counterbalanced by SA not hitting as hard. You can TWF to push that chance to 3 tries. Last I checked, this isn't too bad.
15/5 Rogue/Monk EA+SA+FoB = ((4d6+4Dex)×Hit%)+8d6 if one of the first two hits land, and possible chances to stun on any hit
20 Rogue SA+TWF = ((2d6+Dex)×Hit%)+10d6 if either hit lands.
One grants resourceless burst damage, the other battlefield control. How you choose to tailor your ninja is up to you.
Finally, may I turn your attention to Trickery Cleric 2? Having an illusion that can cause pillars of light to fall or phantasmal bells to toll on enemies using a primary stat is yet another option. Oh, and helping your team stealth around even more for no cost is nice too.
15 monk 5 rogue isnt worth it at level 20, because at level 20 most of the time the DM will spit up the group with a threat of AOE attacks or just having creatures pick up throw people around. So as a monk will be way less than a solid 20 monk or rogue because alot of the time you will be separated from the rest of the group and you are left with a delima: use flurry of blows because you dont have sneak attack and will not deal the extra d6s or try to hide and get advantage and only do 2 attacks and deal way less damage that anything else, at best you can run around spamming stunning strike so your other group members get advantage.
No matter how you look at it you will be dealing less damage than any other class or class combo on the field.
On that note: rouges only need one attack, the most optimised rogue sets up his combat by on their first turn taking a bonus action to hide and applying poison to three arrows. Then spend the next three turns popping out of cover, attacking with advantage and hiding again, this can also be done with a melee weapon using disengage bonus action or if you are a swashbuckler or have the mobile feat you can use your bonus action to hide.
As a shadow monk you going to be making 5 attacks per round unless you use your reaction to catch a arrow or something.
Also as a shadow monk you can just become invisible for free as much as you want and teleport and do a free attack
As any type of rogue your damage is limited but comes out in big chunks, overall a ok built fighter paladin can easily out damage everything else anyways, a level 10 paladin can deal out around 50ish damage per round or of they get lucky up to 100+.
On a last note most games wont make it to 50 as most games go to a max of 15 and fun is a important factor, but sometimes if your not doing alot of damage or unable to function as you want it starts becoming a disappoint and is no longer fun to play, if your looking to play a ninja the best class to pick is :rogue 3 assassin, rest of your levels is lore or blade bard, that's right BARD, ninjas were not fighters, they were primarily spys and only rarely acted as assassins and if they did they struck when there target was at their most valuable, ninjas did learn martial arts but only to defend themselves and avoided combat like the plague and bard exceeds at staying away from the flash point of combat while still contributing, on top of that the assassin subclass allows to make up new identities for yourself and the bard levels help you excel at social encounters and being a spy
For the most part, I agree with your argument. Bards are excellent in many ways. Real ninjas have to be good at doing what the thing they're disguised as normally does. Jack of all trades fills in for this, as does many other bard features. However, we're getting off topic here.
As I said earlier, monks are primarily battlefield controllers. At high levels, with extra attack, flurry of blows and stunning strike, their job often boils down to disabling enemies. Raw damage output goes to other classes.
At earlier levels, such as 5, that role is flipped around; they're great at dealing damage, and don't have enough ki to spam stunning strike. It's kind of ironic, really.
Specifically, shadow monks are great at exploration and scouting. High mobility and stealth, coupled with high wisdom and perception, make them ideal scouts. Plate fighters can sneak, too, with the spells they gain. Dipping rogue for thieves' tools and expertise synergizes exceptionally well here.
Well on the note of using stunning strike alpt end game it's not a great option to do as more creatures have high con scores so casters with hold monster or a variety of other powerful control abilities, and in the end game monks still do quite a bit of damage, 1d10+dex or str up to 4 times, the 4 attacks alone stack up hefty damage, if you take two levels in fighter you can get a burst of 6 attacks in one turn. End game thought for melee damage fighters and paladins 100% have the highest damage per round with barbarians, hexblades and arcane trickster rogue pulling in second (I sae arcane trickster over assassins is that you only get the one auto crit per combat and only if they are suprised or unaware, just because they cant see you doesn't mean they are not aware of you, and arcane trickster can cast shadow blade as a 4th level spell then use booming blade for a crazy 6d8+10d6+dex per turn and that is with a non crit! The booming blade damage will crit with the attack!) Magic users will rarely deal as much damage as other casters, there main role is to focus on taking out adds and buffing other group members but can still deal out big chunks of damage but not like pally or fighter levels of chunks
you can use daggers instead of shortswords as they would be doing the same damage
15 extra movement
your unarmed strike are magic
and you can shadow jump
Slow fall
Deflect Missiles which could possible be used to deal sneak attack on someone else's turn
Ki powers 6 times per day (stunning strike, dodge as a bonus action, furry of blows, etc)
You do give up some higher level rogue stuff tho like, 3d6 sneak attack (avg of 10), slippery mind, elusive, and stroke of luck. If you even get to that level.
well with rogue I normally only take one level in another class, as most of time I use arcane trickster I normally take 1 level in shadow sorcerer for the 4 cantrips and 120 feet of darkvision, that or wizard so by level 15 I can keep the spells I steal if it is level 4 or lower. (I actually did research on this, if you have one level in wizard and have the spell thief feature, if you successfully counter the spell you gain "For the next 8 hours, you know the spell and can cast it using your spell slots. The creature can't cast that spell until the 8 hours have passed." this means you have learned the spell and know how it works, as a result you can use your wizard feature to copy the spell into your spellbook, given you know the spell for 8 hours and it only takes 2 to copy the spell into your book it is 100% possible, also there is no rule for putting down a spell you already know into a spellbook, many wizards even keep a extra spellbook with copies of all there favorite spells in it in case they lose there main spellbook!)
As for subclass to combine with shadow monk, I like the thief. Fast hands is good, climb speed is meh with a tabaxi but the jump distance is fun, the sneak means while you are in the shadows you are almost invisible. My favorite thing is use magic device which is great.
It's a trap because most players (particularly those that are playing a race with natural weapons) that want to pick up Rogue levels with their Monk do so because "Oh, I'll get to add sneak attack too. Awesome!" without realizing unarmed strikes & natural weapons do not carry the Finesse property. These are also the players that tend to not utilize a finesse monk weapon at all, and rely purely on their unarmed strike.
It has never made sense to me why a monk wouldn't at least have a dagger on them, you get to use the martial arts die with those attacks, can still proc stunning strike, and it gives you a different damage type available. Worst case scenario at some point you'll want to pick up a +1 for getting away from resistance to non-magical weapons, but in the early game it gives you a way around bludgeoning damage. Maybe have a few on you for throwing (although I use darts generally for my monk throwing weapons). I'm a fan for those that make the most sense (way of shadow and way of long death primarily) keeping a short sword around, some of the magical short swords even in just the basic rules can be quite nice for someone who gets advantage a lot.
I really love that Monk 6/Rogue X split as well. I'm currently playing a kobold shadow monk/rogue in the CoS (Curse of Strahd) module, and I think Shadow Monk 6 followed by Rogue levels makes for a significantly stronger character by level 9-10 (when the module ends) as compared to a straight Rogue or straight Monk build.
As a straight rogue, I would need to use 2 weapon fighting to have 2 chances to hit with my sneak attack, thereby losing my bonus action to use Cunning Action. The only exception to this is if I took the Swashbuckler Roguish Archetype or the Mobile feat. For me, I enjoy the Arcane Trickster class much more than a Swashbuckler for the more interesting / diverse role play opportunities (although the Swashbuckler or Inquisitive would probably be more powerful options for this class), and I'd prefer to be doing ASI's over feat selections. By taking 6 levels of Monk, I do lose out on 3d6 of sneak attack damage, yet the additional 2 or 3 attacks (if I use Flurry of Blows) more than makes up for that loss in damage. I do lose several rogue traits, yet the built in Monk abilities, especially the Shadow Step teleport as a bonus action every round, more than compensate for those losses.
If I went straight Shadow Monk, the damage output does not improve at all from levels 6-10 apart from having a few more ki points to power attacks. Yet, an additional 2d6 of sneak damage adds substantially to the damage output. It almost always triggers as well with advantage on an attack after teleporting, or having up to 3 attacks in a round with 2 daggers in hand (using 2 weapon fighting) in more of a straight up attack. Even with 2 daggers in hand, the monk can still attack as normal with one of the first two dagger attacks hitting to cue sneak damage, and then martial arts striking with an elbow or knee and the possibility of adding a stunning strike with that last attack. You do lose some other monk features such as Evasion, Stillness of Mind, an Earlier Feat/ASI, Unarmoured Movement Improvement and Purity of Mind, yet I would argue that the roguish abilities gained more than make up for this. A bonus skill, Expertise in 2 skills, Cunning Action, and the 3rd level Roguish Archetype features really add depth and dimension to your character.
In my game, the GM has allowed me to see through my own Darkness created for the mere expenditure of an additional ki point. Attacking in darkness can be incredibly powerful, and it ensures Sneak Attack damage always cues. As an Arcane Trickster, darkness spells work really well on my bat familiar (darkness is cast on a small gem I have had fitted for him and bats have blindsight) as it flies around the battlefield where needed. Additionally, control flames is an amazing cantrip to snuff out or dim light sources as I see fit, so I rarely need to worry about the absence of shadow. Additionally I rarely need to worry about the Sunlight Sensitivity problems in the CoS module, and attacking using Pack Tactics for a Monk / Rogue is incredible fun. Favorite tactics are running into battle and attacking with advantage, through either darkness or Pact Tactics, and either teleporting away or using Cunning Action to get away from the thick of it. Yet, if there is a juicy wizard or missile user engaging from the back of the battlefield, they are always going to be the top priority. I hope we continue playing this game after the module as well so I can reach the higher levels but, if not, it has certainly been a blast.
The thing I enjoy most about the class is the fun factor. Illusions, skill monkeying, teleporting at will, invisible mage hands, stealth enabling and so many diverse options makes for an incredibly interesting character. I mean, just look at the options he has for bonus actions: -Flurry of blows -Step of the Wind -Additional martial arts attack -Additional weapon attack -Cunning Action Withdraw -Cunning Action Hide -Cunning Action Dash -Teleport and attack with advantage -Do something cool with the invisible Mage Hand -Command my bat familiar to assist or move darkness
Geez you guys are so crazy mean to each other!!! I'd like to preface that all of you criticizing each other about a game..... It's just a game! there is no real right or wrong way to play your character. There are more or less optimal ways in the manner o f damage that you can play, but not a wrong way. (baring of course you decided to make a Monk and carry a great axe around). Just be nicer to people in general, They don't have to play it YOUR way. People come here looking for advice, and counter points, not for it to degenerate into name calling...
That being said, I currently have a Shadow Monk Rogue multi class. for me personally This worked very well with my back story without in my opinion, hurting my monk build too much. I gave up the ability to move along vertical surfaces, and water, but gained the additional damage and the ability to trigger my sneak attack each round at the expense of 1 Ki point. That being said I do carry a katana which (per my DM) he classified as a short sword, finesse, versatile, and, is also a +2 magical weapon, so the bonus to-hit, and damage is very nice. however my character was sold into slavery by a trading company that deals in all things including people. When the moment presented itself during a trade deal with this company, I asked to see the most expensive item that they had, and made sure my Ranger (with locate object saw it) that night I asked him to cast locate object with it and broke in a stole a 150k gp sword. It as extremely difficult, as my Wis, Dex scores are great, but intelligence for things like investigating is not great. but I did manage to get away, though in the moment, I grabbed a case that I thought was the sword and bailed. This has become the new drive for my characters life, to sneak into every one of these trading posts ripping off their most expensive items and selling them CHEAP to a competitor. That made dipping into rogue for if nothing else the expertise into Investigation very worth while. on top of that being able to trigger sneak attack each turn is decent, and works well for me. Don't forget that few campaigns actually get to level 20.
So in essence, to answer the above question to my best ability! 1. Mixing Monk with Rogue is not the #1 optimal build. (Take a look at Tabaxi or Aarakocra Monks) 2. Yes is it fun being able to shadow step into sneak attack while sneak attack is great, as a straight rogue, you are always looking for a way to trigger that sneak attack each round of combat, and having a shadow monk does accomplish that for you, (at the expense of a ki point). 3. Yes there are other (cheaper/better) ways to trigger sneak attack each round without dipping into monk or rogue. 4. I am not 100% hung up on min-maxing a character. If your only goal is to min-max then rogue monk is not the answer. 5. If you're looking for some cool interactions and playing your character the way you want to, (which is what D&D is all about). Then I can tell you from experience that this is a lot of fun. and works just like you think it should.
After all if everybody only ever played the most efficient Min-Maxed characters, what fun would that be? And if your idea of fun is min-maxing your character that's great, but don't look down on those that don't place that as their #1 priority.
I like the idea of a Monk that dips into Rogue for Sneak Attack. A Shadow Monk has some great abilities that tie in well to the sneak attack.
If you take the Human Variant with Magic Initiate (Warlock) as the feat, you can pick up Hex. Other races work as well but you have use an ability score upgrade to get it.
You can start as either Monk or Rogue but I have found I like Way of the Shadow Monk with a dip into Rogue for Sneak attack. Possibly after reaching 8th level in Monk I will dip into something else or continue to expand Rogue. I have actually found that I rarely get above 6th level with any character as the group I play in gets bored and wants a new character. Plus almost every campaign is designed to start at 1st level. Very disappointed with that. It does make some sense though as classes are VERY bottom loaded.
Whichever you choose, gets Hex as a bonus action which provides 1d6 psychic damage and lasts an hour but is concentration. Hex also allows you to choose an ability that gets disadvantage on saving throws. At 5th level (not spell slot but PC level) that becomes 2d6 and keeps scaling so class doesn't matter and you don't need to be a caster to take advantage of it. So a Rogue can get an extra 1d6 Sneak and 1d6 Psychic at 1st level but has to hit on the single attack they get. Monk gets a bonus unarmed strike so if the first doesn't hit the second might, which may be more beneficial then the extra sneak damage. You would need to decide. Keep in mind that Hex works on every HIT, which really shines as you get more attacks in the monk class at higher levels. So for the monk if both attacks hit you get the extra 2d6 like the Rogue would plus one more attack damage and dex modifier. I prefer to take Monk first for this reason as damage is very hard to come by at 1st level.
So if you dip at level 2 so you have Monk and Rogue that are first level each, you get to take advantage of the extra 1d6 Sneak Attack for the monk. Or the Rogue gets to take the Unarmed Strike as a Bonus action. Hex is also a bonus action so you may not get both on your first round. If all works as planned you can in fact do both, see below (you may need a cool DM to pull it off).
How I use this on my 5th level Way of the Shadow Monk/1st level Rogue.
Before a short rest I cast Dark Vision with a Ki point (which will be even more impressive when I get Shadow Step at the Monk's 6th level). Depending on how long your short rest is, you will have 4 to 7 hours remaining on the Dark Vision. I could also use Silence or Pass without Trace tricks but those use Ki points so I usually don't as I want them for Stunning Strike and Flurry of Blows.
I have 16 Dex which gives +3 mod and +9 for both Stealth and Perception due to Expertise in both from Rogue.
The Monk/Rogue should be Sneaking/Scouting ahead and when I detect enemies with my great Perception (+9 due expertise in Perception) I can use a bonus action to cast Hex. I then can now either start combat or let that turn expire and use Stealth (+9 due to Expertise in Stealth) to stay undetected. My Stealth vs their Perception, I was already hidden. Now I have Hex, for up to an hour, and Dark Vision which is still running. I can use the surprise round to gain sneak attack (advantage because the enemy is unaware of me). So, with Hex (extra 2d6 Psychic due to being level 6 character) and Sneak Attack, Extra 1d6 and my +1 short sword (1d6 +1 and Dex +3)I can deal 8 to 28 damage without a crit. I can chose to use a Ki and apply stunning strike if I would like but usually don't at this point. Then for being 5th level Monk I get a 2nd attack action per round so repeat above (less the 1 d6 for sneak so 7-22 possible on a hit). So far that is 15 to 50 damage with my 2 attacks per round. I also still have my bonus action and all Ki points, because I let the round I cast Hex in expire (this is where the cool DM comes in) so this is a new round. I can use a Ki for Fury of Blows, which gives 2 unarmed strikes both at 1d6 due to Monk level and surprise should still give advantage, plus the Hex for both, so each strike if they hit do 3d6 + 3 for dex mod or 6 - 21 x2. If it is still standing I will then use a Ki to try to stun it as that is not a bonus action it just needs a hit with a melee weapon attack. So if all 4 attacks hit I get my weapon damage (1d6 +1 for each or 2d6 +2, 4-14) Unarmed Strikes (1d6 x2 or 2d6, 2-12 Hex (4 times 8d6) Sneak Attack (once, 1d6) and Dex mod (4 times). That should be a minimum of 13 to 78 for the 13 d6's, plus my weapon's +1 and Dex bonuses which total 14 for all 4 hits. That gives 27 to 92 damage in that round, again Assuming they all hit.
If I were to drop the enemy in the first 2 hits before the bonus action I can save it for defense, or use it to Hide or move Hex to a new enemy.
A neat trick (again you may need a cool DM) is to carry a crate of mice with you as the Hex needs a long rest to recover. So when all enemies are dead move the Hex to a mouse and hope you find a new target within the remaining hour. If you are sneaking again and are undiscovered you can kill the mouse and move the Hex and start the shenanigans all over again.
The biggest drawback of this Multiclass is that there are SO many bonus actions available to you that it takes some planning to decide which to use and when.
Shadow step at 6th level also uses a bonus action so you may need to Hex, wait, shadow step and strike. With this method you lose the flurry of blows that round. UNLESS, you have a REALLY cool DM who would allow you to try to allow that round to expire as well and you try to stay hidden right behind them. I don't see that as unreasonable but it would depend on many things in order to have a chance of working.
Remember that Sneak Attack works with ranged weapons as well so you don't have to be in melee, but you can't use stunning strike without a melee attack. Also, all of the crossbows have the Loading label so you need a short bow or thrown weapons for 2 attacks and only finesse weapons (daggers and darts primarily) have the Finesse label for the sneak attack.
It's a trap because most players (particularly those that are playing a race with natural weapons) that want to pick up Rogue levels with their Monk do so because "Oh, I'll get to add sneak attack too. Awesome!" without realizing unarmed strikes & natural weapons do not carry the Finesse property. These are also the players that tend to not utilize a finesse monk weapon at all, and rely purely on their unarmed strike.
Yup. Exactly what is the point of having the ability to obliterate foes with your bare hands if you instead use a sword? Stupidity, for sure.
It's a trap because most players (particularly those that are playing a race with natural weapons) that want to pick up Rogue levels with their Monk do so because "Oh, I'll get to add sneak attack too. Awesome!" without realizing unarmed strikes & natural weapons do not carry the Finesse property. These are also the players that tend to not utilize a finesse monk weapon at all, and rely purely on their unarmed strike.
It has never made sense to me why a monk wouldn't at least have a dagger on them, you get to use the martial arts die with those attacks, can still proc stunning strike, and it gives you a different damage type available. Worst case scenario at some point you'll want to pick up a +1 for getting away from resistance to non-magical weapons, but in the early game it gives you a way around bludgeoning damage. Maybe have a few on you for throwing (although I use darts generally for my monk throwing weapons). I'm a fan for those that make the most sense (way of shadow and way of long death primarily) keeping a short sword around, some of the magical short swords even in just the basic rules can be quite nice for someone who gets advantage a lot.
Not sure why this thread was necro'd but I want to comment on this piece right here.
Monks don't need any of this stuff. Another damage type doesn't really matter because there is no creature that I can think of anymore that gets any kind of special treatment from different kinds of physical damage that I can think of existing in 5e like there was in older editions. On top of that monks don't actually need that dagger to get past Magic Resistance and never have. They've always had some ability long about level 5 or 6 that let's them hit through different kinds of resistances. In some games it's ramped up more and more in levels beyond that but in 5e really all they need for the most part is just their current level 6 power that their fists count as magical weapons. About the only thing that might be useful is some of the extra powers that might come from a magical short sword but that's really give or take until you get into tier 4 of play because the game is balanced around lower numbers and for most levels you don't even need a magical weapon really to function under general circumstances.
Another damage type doesn't really matter because there is no creature that I can think of anymore that gets any kind of special treatment from different kinds of physical damage that I can think of existing in 5e like there was in older editions
Skeletons have vulnerability to bludgeoning (though not resistant to piercing any more)...
Monks are awesome. Shadow monks are situationally devastating. My halfling shadow monk carries a dagger - and also a quarterstaff (eighth staff)... Just devastating (if he can get stunning strike to work...)
Another damage type doesn't really matter because there is no creature that I can think of anymore that gets any kind of special treatment from different kinds of physical damage that I can think of existing in 5e like there was in older editions
Skeletons have vulnerability to bludgeoning (though not resistant to piercing any more)...
Monks are awesome. Shadow monks are situationally devastating. My halfling shadow monk carries a dagger - and also a quarterstaff (eighth staff)... Just devastating (if he can get stunning strike to work...)
Adding to this, a treant resists piercing and bludgeoning, same with a wood woad, and a rakshasa is vulnerable to magical piercing. The monsters exist, it's just that the majority of them aren't so picky. It's like an evocation wizard having fire, cold, lightning, acid and thunder spells despite force being the preferred general option.
Back on topic, with Tasha's available, shadow monks no longer need to dip into warlock to get the Devil's Sight invocation. This means they no longer have to put points into Charisma to dip warlock to maximize their darkness utility!
Back on topic, with Tasha's available, shadow monks no longer need to dip into warlock to get the Devil's Sight invocation. This means they no longer have to put points into Charisma to dip warlock to maximize their darkness utility!
They do need to pick up Spellcasting or Pact Magic to take that feat. Shadow Monk "spells" don't grant them Spellcasting.
Back on topic, with Tasha's available, shadow monks no longer need to dip into warlock to get the Devil's Sight invocation. This means they no longer have to put points into Charisma to dip warlock to maximize their darkness utility!
They do need to pick up Spellcasting or Pact Magic to take that feat. Shadow Monk "spells" don't grant them Spellcasting.
That's true, but they can opt to pick up a level in either druid or cleric to get access to it instead of warlock for less MADness. I'd likely dip 2 levels for either transforming into an animal or creating a trickery doppelganger.
Another damage type doesn't really matter because there is no creature that I can think of anymore that gets any kind of special treatment from different kinds of physical damage that I can think of existing in 5e like there was in older editions
Skeletons have vulnerability to bludgeoning (though not resistant to piercing any more)...
Monks are awesome. Shadow monks are situationally devastating. My halfling shadow monk carries a dagger - and also a quarterstaff (eighth staff)... Just devastating (if he can get stunning strike to work...)
Adding to this, a treant resists piercing and bludgeoning, same with a wood woad, and a rakshasa is vulnerable to magical piercing. The monsters exist, it's just that the majority of them aren't so picky. It's like an evocation wizard having fire, cold, lightning, acid and thunder spells despite force being the preferred general option.
Back on topic, with Tasha's available, shadow monks no longer need to dip into warlock to get the Devil's Sight invocation. This means they no longer have to put points into Charisma to dip warlock to maximize their darkness utility!
I forgot about the rakshasa having that vulnerability. Granted I worry more about it's invulnerabilities instead. Like any spell below 6th level...
Did you just not read the first two paragraphs of their post? They are talking about what dipping 3 levels into Rogue for SA/Assassinate, and what that brings to the table for up to 17 levels in Monk. They are saying what Assassin brings is most valuable when the main class (Monk) is level 5, and Monks do get extra attack at that point.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It's already been said, but both the Rogue and Monk classes require heavy investment in order to play optimally. Monks need their ki points and martial arts damage die, rogues their sneak attack. That's not to say that someone can't do a 10/10 or 11/9 split, but the issues do exist.
That said, going 1-3 levels in either direction doesn't often hurt too much. Assassin 3 works nicely for a stealth-heavy build, and what can't be cheesed this way can often be momentarily bypassed. Shadow Monk 3 gives a nice assortment of spells that make a Rogue's job easier. Minor illusion has many useful applications, and pass w/o trace with expertise in stealth is extremely hard to detect.
Monk 5 gives extra attack and stunning strike. More opprotunities to hit a sneak attack is counterbalanced by SA not hitting as hard. You can TWF to push that chance to 3 tries. Last I checked, this isn't too bad.
15/5 Rogue/Monk EA+SA+FoB = ((4d6+4Dex)×Hit%)+8d6 if one of the first two hits land, and possible chances to stun on any hit
20 Rogue SA+TWF = ((2d6+Dex)×Hit%)+10d6 if either hit lands.
One grants resourceless burst damage, the other battlefield control. How you choose to tailor your ninja is up to you.
Finally, may I turn your attention to Trickery Cleric 2? Having an illusion that can cause pillars of light to fall or phantasmal bells to toll on enemies using a primary stat is yet another option. Oh, and helping your team stealth around even more for no cost is nice too.
15 monk 5 rogue isnt worth it at level 20, because at level 20 most of the time the DM will spit up the group with a threat of AOE attacks or just having creatures pick up throw people around. So as a monk will be way less than a solid 20 monk or rogue because alot of the time you will be separated from the rest of the group and you are left with a delima: use flurry of blows because you dont have sneak attack and will not deal the extra d6s or try to hide and get advantage and only do 2 attacks and deal way less damage that anything else, at best you can run around spamming stunning strike so your other group members get advantage.
No matter how you look at it you will be dealing less damage than any other class or class combo on the field.
On that note: rouges only need one attack, the most optimised rogue sets up his combat by on their first turn taking a bonus action to hide and applying poison to three arrows. Then spend the next three turns popping out of cover, attacking with advantage and hiding again, this can also be done with a melee weapon using disengage bonus action or if you are a swashbuckler or have the mobile feat you can use your bonus action to hide.
As a shadow monk you going to be making 5 attacks per round unless you use your reaction to catch a arrow or something.
Also as a shadow monk you can just become invisible for free as much as you want and teleport and do a free attack
As any type of rogue your damage is limited but comes out in big chunks, overall a ok built fighter paladin can easily out damage everything else anyways, a level 10 paladin can deal out around 50ish damage per round or of they get lucky up to 100+.
On a last note most games wont make it to 50 as most games go to a max of 15 and fun is a important factor, but sometimes if your not doing alot of damage or unable to function as you want it starts becoming a disappoint and is no longer fun to play, if your looking to play a ninja the best class to pick is :rogue 3 assassin, rest of your levels is lore or blade bard, that's right BARD, ninjas were not fighters, they were primarily spys and only rarely acted as assassins and if they did they struck when there target was at their most valuable, ninjas did learn martial arts but only to defend themselves and avoided combat like the plague and bard exceeds at staying away from the flash point of combat while still contributing, on top of that the assassin subclass allows to make up new identities for yourself and the bard levels help you excel at social encounters and being a spy
For the most part, I agree with your argument. Bards are excellent in many ways. Real ninjas have to be good at doing what the thing they're disguised as normally does. Jack of all trades fills in for this, as does many other bard features. However, we're getting off topic here.
As I said earlier, monks are primarily battlefield controllers. At high levels, with extra attack, flurry of blows and stunning strike, their job often boils down to disabling enemies. Raw damage output goes to other classes.
At earlier levels, such as 5, that role is flipped around; they're great at dealing damage, and don't have enough ki to spam stunning strike. It's kind of ironic, really.
Specifically, shadow monks are great at exploration and scouting. High mobility and stealth, coupled with high wisdom and perception, make them ideal scouts. Plate fighters can sneak, too, with the spells they gain. Dipping rogue for thieves' tools and expertise synergizes exceptionally well here.
Well on the note of using stunning strike alpt end game it's not a great option to do as more creatures have high con scores so casters with hold monster or a variety of other powerful control abilities, and in the end game monks still do quite a bit of damage, 1d10+dex or str up to 4 times, the 4 attacks alone stack up hefty damage, if you take two levels in fighter you can get a burst of 6 attacks in one turn. End game thought for melee damage fighters and paladins 100% have the highest damage per round with barbarians, hexblades and arcane trickster rogue pulling in second (I sae arcane trickster over assassins is that you only get the one auto crit per combat and only if they are suprised or unaware, just because they cant see you doesn't mean they are not aware of you, and arcane trickster can cast shadow blade as a 4th level spell then use booming blade for a crazy 6d8+10d6+dex per turn and that is with a non crit! The booming blade damage will crit with the attack!) Magic users will rarely deal as much damage as other casters, there main role is to focus on taking out adds and buffing other group members but can still deal out big chunks of damage but not like pally or fighter levels of chunks
I like the 14R/6M split, it gives you:
You do give up some higher level rogue stuff tho like, 3d6 sneak attack (avg of 10), slippery mind, elusive, and stroke of luck. If you even get to that level.
well with rogue I normally only take one level in another class, as most of time I use arcane trickster I normally take 1 level in shadow sorcerer for the 4 cantrips and 120 feet of darkvision, that or wizard so by level 15 I can keep the spells I steal if it is level 4 or lower. (I actually did research on this, if you have one level in wizard and have the spell thief feature, if you successfully counter the spell you gain "For the next 8 hours, you know the spell and can cast it using your spell slots. The creature can't cast that spell until the 8 hours have passed." this means you have learned the spell and know how it works, as a result you can use your wizard feature to copy the spell into your spellbook, given you know the spell for 8 hours and it only takes 2 to copy the spell into your book it is 100% possible, also there is no rule for putting down a spell you already know into a spellbook, many wizards even keep a extra spellbook with copies of all there favorite spells in it in case they lose there main spellbook!)
As for subclass to combine with shadow monk, I like the thief. Fast hands is good, climb speed is meh with a tabaxi but the jump distance is fun, the sneak means while you are in the shadows you are almost invisible. My favorite thing is use magic device which is great.
It has never made sense to me why a monk wouldn't at least have a dagger on them, you get to use the martial arts die with those attacks, can still proc stunning strike, and it gives you a different damage type available. Worst case scenario at some point you'll want to pick up a +1 for getting away from resistance to non-magical weapons, but in the early game it gives you a way around bludgeoning damage. Maybe have a few on you for throwing (although I use darts generally for my monk throwing weapons). I'm a fan for those that make the most sense (way of shadow and way of long death primarily) keeping a short sword around, some of the magical short swords even in just the basic rules can be quite nice for someone who gets advantage a lot.
I really love that Monk 6/Rogue X split as well. I'm currently playing a kobold shadow monk/rogue in the CoS (Curse of Strahd) module, and I think Shadow Monk 6 followed by Rogue levels makes for a significantly stronger character by level 9-10 (when the module ends) as compared to a straight Rogue or straight Monk build.
As a straight rogue, I would need to use 2 weapon fighting to have 2 chances to hit with my sneak attack, thereby losing my bonus action to use Cunning Action. The only exception to this is if I took the Swashbuckler Roguish Archetype or the Mobile feat. For me, I enjoy the Arcane Trickster class much more than a Swashbuckler for the more interesting / diverse role play opportunities (although the Swashbuckler or Inquisitive would probably be more powerful options for this class), and I'd prefer to be doing ASI's over feat selections. By taking 6 levels of Monk, I do lose out on 3d6 of sneak attack damage, yet the additional 2 or 3 attacks (if I use Flurry of Blows) more than makes up for that loss in damage. I do lose several rogue traits, yet the built in Monk abilities, especially the Shadow Step teleport as a bonus action every round, more than compensate for those losses.
If I went straight Shadow Monk, the damage output does not improve at all from levels 6-10 apart from having a few more ki points to power attacks. Yet, an additional 2d6 of sneak damage adds substantially to the damage output. It almost always triggers as well with advantage on an attack after teleporting, or having up to 3 attacks in a round with 2 daggers in hand (using 2 weapon fighting) in more of a straight up attack. Even with 2 daggers in hand, the monk can still attack as normal with one of the first two dagger attacks hitting to cue sneak damage, and then martial arts striking with an elbow or knee and the possibility of adding a stunning strike with that last attack. You do lose some other monk features such as Evasion, Stillness of Mind, an Earlier Feat/ASI, Unarmoured Movement Improvement and Purity of Mind, yet I would argue that the roguish abilities gained more than make up for this. A bonus skill, Expertise in 2 skills, Cunning Action, and the 3rd level Roguish Archetype features really add depth and dimension to your character.
In my game, the GM has allowed me to see through my own Darkness created for the mere expenditure of an additional ki point. Attacking in darkness can be incredibly powerful, and it ensures Sneak Attack damage always cues. As an Arcane Trickster, darkness spells work really well on my bat familiar (darkness is cast on a small gem I have had fitted for him and bats have blindsight) as it flies around the battlefield where needed. Additionally, control flames is an amazing cantrip to snuff out or dim light sources as I see fit, so I rarely need to worry about the absence of shadow. Additionally I rarely need to worry about the Sunlight Sensitivity problems in the CoS module, and attacking using Pack Tactics for a Monk / Rogue is incredible fun. Favorite tactics are running into battle and attacking with advantage, through either darkness or Pact Tactics, and either teleporting away or using Cunning Action to get away from the thick of it. Yet, if there is a juicy wizard or missile user engaging from the back of the battlefield, they are always going to be the top priority. I hope we continue playing this game after the module as well so I can reach the higher levels but, if not, it has certainly been a blast.
The thing I enjoy most about the class is the fun factor. Illusions, skill monkeying, teleporting at will, invisible mage hands, stealth enabling and so many diverse options makes for an incredibly interesting character. I mean, just look at the options he has for bonus actions:
-Flurry of blows
-Step of the Wind
-Additional martial arts attack
-Additional weapon attack
-Cunning Action Withdraw
-Cunning Action Hide
-Cunning Action Dash
-Teleport and attack with advantage
-Do something cool with the invisible Mage Hand
-Command my bat familiar to assist or move darkness
What is not to like!?
Geez you guys are so crazy mean to each other!!! I'd like to preface that all of you criticizing each other about a game..... It's just a game! there is no real right or wrong way to play your character. There are more or less optimal ways in the manner o f damage that you can play, but not a wrong way. (baring of course you decided to make a Monk and carry a great axe around). Just be nicer to people in general, They don't have to play it YOUR way. People come here looking for advice, and counter points, not for it to degenerate into name calling...
That being said, I currently have a Shadow Monk Rogue multi class. for me personally This worked very well with my back story without in my opinion, hurting my monk build too much. I gave up the ability to move along vertical surfaces, and water, but gained the additional damage and the ability to trigger my sneak attack each round at the expense of 1 Ki point. That being said I do carry a katana which (per my DM) he classified as a short sword, finesse, versatile, and, is also a +2 magical weapon, so the bonus to-hit, and damage is very nice. however my character was sold into slavery by a trading company that deals in all things including people. When the moment presented itself during a trade deal with this company, I asked to see the most expensive item that they had, and made sure my Ranger (with locate object saw it) that night I asked him to cast locate object with it and broke in a stole a 150k gp sword. It as extremely difficult, as my Wis, Dex scores are great, but intelligence for things like investigating is not great. but I did manage to get away, though in the moment, I grabbed a case that I thought was the sword and bailed. This has become the new drive for my characters life, to sneak into every one of these trading posts ripping off their most expensive items and selling them CHEAP to a competitor. That made dipping into rogue for if nothing else the expertise into Investigation very worth while. on top of that being able to trigger sneak attack each turn is decent, and works well for me. Don't forget that few campaigns actually get to level 20.
So in essence, to answer the above question to my best ability!
1. Mixing Monk with Rogue is not the #1 optimal build. (Take a look at Tabaxi or Aarakocra Monks)
2. Yes is it fun being able to shadow step into sneak attack while sneak attack is great, as a straight rogue, you are always looking for a way to trigger that sneak attack each round of combat, and having a shadow monk does accomplish that for you, (at the expense of a ki point).
3. Yes there are other (cheaper/better) ways to trigger sneak attack each round without dipping into monk or rogue.
4. I am not 100% hung up on min-maxing a character. If your only goal is to min-max then rogue monk is not the answer.
5. If you're looking for some cool interactions and playing your character the way you want to, (which is what D&D is all about). Then I can tell you from experience that this is a lot of fun. and works just like you think it should.
After all if everybody only ever played the most efficient Min-Maxed characters, what fun would that be? And if your idea of fun is min-maxing your character that's great, but don't look down on those that don't place that as their #1 priority.
HUZZAH TO THE PLAYERS!!!!!!
I like the idea of a Monk that dips into Rogue for Sneak Attack. A Shadow Monk has some great abilities that tie in well to the sneak attack.
If you take the Human Variant with Magic Initiate (Warlock) as the feat, you can pick up Hex. Other races work as well but you have use an ability score upgrade to get it.
You can start as either Monk or Rogue but I have found I like Way of the Shadow Monk with a dip into Rogue for Sneak attack. Possibly after reaching 8th level in Monk I will dip into something else or continue to expand Rogue. I have actually found that I rarely get above 6th level with any character as the group I play in gets bored and wants a new character. Plus almost every campaign is designed to start at 1st level. Very disappointed with that. It does make some sense though as classes are VERY bottom loaded.
Whichever you choose, gets Hex as a bonus action which provides 1d6 psychic damage and lasts an hour but is concentration. Hex also allows you to choose an ability that gets disadvantage on saving throws. At 5th level (not spell slot but PC level) that becomes 2d6 and keeps scaling so class doesn't matter and you don't need to be a caster to take advantage of it. So a Rogue can get an extra 1d6 Sneak and 1d6 Psychic at 1st level but has to hit on the single attack they get. Monk gets a bonus unarmed strike so if the first doesn't hit the second might, which may be more beneficial then the extra sneak damage. You would need to decide. Keep in mind that Hex works on every HIT, which really shines as you get more attacks in the monk class at higher levels. So for the monk if both attacks hit you get the extra 2d6 like the Rogue would plus one more attack damage and dex modifier. I prefer to take Monk first for this reason as damage is very hard to come by at 1st level.
So if you dip at level 2 so you have Monk and Rogue that are first level each, you get to take advantage of the extra 1d6 Sneak Attack for the monk. Or the Rogue gets to take the Unarmed Strike as a Bonus action. Hex is also a bonus action so you may not get both on your first round. If all works as planned you can in fact do both, see below (you may need a cool DM to pull it off).
How I use this on my 5th level Way of the Shadow Monk/1st level Rogue.
Before a short rest I cast Dark Vision with a Ki point (which will be even more impressive when I get Shadow Step at the Monk's 6th level). Depending on how long your short rest is, you will have 4 to 7 hours remaining on the Dark Vision. I could also use Silence or Pass without Trace tricks but those use Ki points so I usually don't as I want them for Stunning Strike and Flurry of Blows.
I have 16 Dex which gives +3 mod and +9 for both Stealth and Perception due to Expertise in both from Rogue.
The Monk/Rogue should be Sneaking/Scouting ahead and when I detect enemies with my great Perception (+9 due expertise in Perception) I can use a bonus action to cast Hex. I then can now either start combat or let that turn expire and use Stealth (+9 due to Expertise in Stealth) to stay undetected. My Stealth vs their Perception, I was already hidden. Now I have Hex, for up to an hour, and Dark Vision which is still running. I can use the surprise round to gain sneak attack (advantage because the enemy is unaware of me). So, with Hex (extra 2d6 Psychic due to being level 6 character) and Sneak Attack, Extra 1d6 and my +1 short sword (1d6 +1 and Dex +3)I can deal 8 to 28 damage without a crit. I can chose to use a Ki and apply stunning strike if I would like but usually don't at this point. Then for being 5th level Monk I get a 2nd attack action per round so repeat above (less the 1 d6 for sneak so 7-22 possible on a hit). So far that is 15 to 50 damage with my 2 attacks per round. I also still have my bonus action and all Ki points, because I let the round I cast Hex in expire (this is where the cool DM comes in) so this is a new round. I can use a Ki for Fury of Blows, which gives 2 unarmed strikes both at 1d6 due to Monk level and surprise should still give advantage, plus the Hex for both, so each strike if they hit do 3d6 + 3 for dex mod or 6 - 21 x2. If it is still standing I will then use a Ki to try to stun it as that is not a bonus action it just needs a hit with a melee weapon attack. So if all 4 attacks hit I get my weapon damage (1d6 +1 for each or 2d6 +2, 4-14) Unarmed Strikes (1d6 x2 or 2d6, 2-12 Hex (4 times 8d6) Sneak Attack (once, 1d6) and Dex mod (4 times). That should be a minimum of 13 to 78 for the 13 d6's, plus my weapon's +1 and Dex bonuses which total 14 for all 4 hits. That gives 27 to 92 damage in that round, again Assuming they all hit.
If I were to drop the enemy in the first 2 hits before the bonus action I can save it for defense, or use it to Hide or move Hex to a new enemy.
A neat trick (again you may need a cool DM) is to carry a crate of mice with you as the Hex needs a long rest to recover. So when all enemies are dead move the Hex to a mouse and hope you find a new target within the remaining hour. If you are sneaking again and are undiscovered you can kill the mouse and move the Hex and start the shenanigans all over again.
The biggest drawback of this Multiclass is that there are SO many bonus actions available to you that it takes some planning to decide which to use and when.
Shadow step at 6th level also uses a bonus action so you may need to Hex, wait, shadow step and strike. With this method you lose the flurry of blows that round. UNLESS, you have a REALLY cool DM who would allow you to try to allow that round to expire as well and you try to stay hidden right behind them. I don't see that as unreasonable but it would depend on many things in order to have a chance of working.
Remember that Sneak Attack works with ranged weapons as well so you don't have to be in melee, but you can't use stunning strike without a melee attack. Also, all of the crossbows have the Loading label so you need a short bow or thrown weapons for 2 attacks and only finesse weapons (daggers and darts primarily) have the Finesse label for the sneak attack.
Yup. Exactly what is the point of having the ability to obliterate foes with your bare hands if you instead use a sword? Stupidity, for sure.
Not sure why this thread was necro'd but I want to comment on this piece right here.
Monks don't need any of this stuff. Another damage type doesn't really matter because there is no creature that I can think of anymore that gets any kind of special treatment from different kinds of physical damage that I can think of existing in 5e like there was in older editions. On top of that monks don't actually need that dagger to get past Magic Resistance and never have. They've always had some ability long about level 5 or 6 that let's them hit through different kinds of resistances. In some games it's ramped up more and more in levels beyond that but in 5e really all they need for the most part is just their current level 6 power that their fists count as magical weapons. About the only thing that might be useful is some of the extra powers that might come from a magical short sword but that's really give or take until you get into tier 4 of play because the game is balanced around lower numbers and for most levels you don't even need a magical weapon really to function under general circumstances.
Skeletons have vulnerability to bludgeoning (though not resistant to piercing any more)...
Monks are awesome. Shadow monks are situationally devastating. My halfling shadow monk carries a dagger - and also a quarterstaff (eighth staff)... Just devastating (if he can get stunning strike to work...)
Adding to this, a treant resists piercing and bludgeoning, same with a wood woad, and a rakshasa is vulnerable to magical piercing. The monsters exist, it's just that the majority of them aren't so picky. It's like an evocation wizard having fire, cold, lightning, acid and thunder spells despite force being the preferred general option.
Back on topic, with Tasha's available, shadow monks no longer need to dip into warlock to get the Devil's Sight invocation. This means they no longer have to put points into Charisma to dip warlock to maximize their darkness utility!
They do need to pick up Spellcasting or Pact Magic to take that feat. Shadow Monk "spells" don't grant them Spellcasting.
That's true, but they can opt to pick up a level in either druid or cleric to get access to it instead of warlock for less MADness. I'd likely dip 2 levels for either transforming into an animal or creating a trickery doppelganger.
I forgot about the rakshasa having that vulnerability. Granted I worry more about it's invulnerabilities instead. Like any spell below 6th level...
If you're a rogue and you fight with fitness you can get your surprise and sneak attack by being a barbarian and recklessly attack.