So I have a first level Tabaxi Rogue with ability scores of 11 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis and 17 Cha that I intend to multiclass into a Shadow monk with my 4th level
Originally I was musing with the idea of taking the scout roguish archetype, but have recently had some doubts after looking into assassin a bit
I was hoping for any other opinions on these two ideas for this multiclass, whether popping out of a shadow for an automatic crit on an unsuspecting foe or a massive amount of mobility piqued your interest more, how youd go about these combinations with feats and level dispersion etc. or perhaps even whether youd use a different rogue subclass instead!
The Assassinate ability requires gaining Suprise for any hit to become a critical. Surprise is hard to pull off, depends on your party, and it's often nearly impossible to surprise the bosses. The ability to get Advantage on all attack rolls against anyone who hasn't gone yet, only works on the 1st turn of combat.
Think about if you want your lvl 3 Rogue ability to be something that triggers once a combat for one part and if at all for the really cool one. Or do the bonuses you get from other rogue sub-classes which can trigger every round.
I'd consider the swashbuckler for the mobility aspect of that archetype. Fancy footwork (if you hit the target they don;t get their attack of opportunity against you if you move away) is awesome and saves your disengage ki ability so you can use that precious ki on something else. Rakish audacity, if you're all isolated on the battlefield, means that you can use you sneak attack without requiring advantage if no allies/enemies except your target are within 5 feet of you. Using fancy footwork that shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I've not done it myself but it though assassin sounds more thematically akin to shadow monk. swashbuckler could aid you more in the long term.
Keep in mind that sneak attack does not work with unarmed strikes. Monk/Rogue is mostly a trap for non-Kensei monks.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't understand how people keep saying it's a trap?
Shadow Monk casts Pass Without Trace, the group moves steathily up, the Shadow Rogue goes ahead and then shadowports to enemy to assassin strike with his shortsword with advantage and potential auto-crit and stunning strike before backing off ready to sneak/attack again. The party knows this is the time to attack and rush forward. Rest of fight is spent shadowport-sneak-attacking.
I had a lot of fun and use of this with my Shadow Monk Assassin Rogue Tabaxi. When you see multiple guards ahead, the group lays low, you cast silence then shadow port in, assassinate guard (with stun if they survive). And ready to move onto next guard who will be entirely unsuspecting.
Do realise the initiative rulings and surprise are based on a whole combat group ambush and were not designed on specific cases of a single assassination. If a character is not in combat and entirely unaware of the assassin until a blade is launched into their skull they are surprised. If there are multiple guards but were unable to see or hear or have any ability to be aware of that assassination, they remain vulnerable to being assassinated. If you really want to stick to initiatives: the combat only involves those directly in it: the assassin and their target, keep in between those two and roll init, then apply surprise etc. Personally I stick to common sense and awareness-factor.
Also remember, it makes no difference at all what any book says: it's what the DM rules.
Even sticking to RAW I had a blast with my character - and even more fun when not sticking to RAW because my DM is cool.
It's a trap because most players (particularly those that are playing a race with natural weapons) that want to pick up Rogue levels with their Monk do so because "Oh, I'll get to add sneak attack too. Awesome!" without realizing unarmed strikes & natural weapons do not carry the Finesse property. These are also the players that tend to not utilize a finesse monk weapon at all, and rely purely on their unarmed strike.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
the two classes go ok together but it classes a bit, the hide as a bonus action from rogue is nice but monk deals the majority of its damage by using its bonus action for extra attacks, alot of people want to make rogues with extra attacks and let me tell you, rogues do not need it, early (1-3) on the heavy damage dealers in the game are paladin (smite spells and divine smite will deal around or well over 20 damage) monks ( you get 3 attacks starting at level 2! that is 1d4+dex 3 times, even with just 16 dex that is a minimum of 12 damage and average of 15 damage) and rogues (even with just one attack the extra sneak attack damage will let you one hit kill most low CR creatures) that being said if you plan on acting as a rogue when playing as a monk, using the bonus action will hide will lose you 1-2 attacks and if your only taking 1-3 levels in rogue the 2d6 damage you get is not worth it! besides as a shadow monk you can just be invisible so I suggest one or the other but not both because as a monk you are going to want to use your bonus action for martial arts or flurry of blows, if you really want the free disengage as a bonus action take the feat mobile and choose your footing well.
Gavorn, you only get one sneak attack per turn, furthermore the bonus attacks you get from the marital arts and flurry of blows HAVE to be unarmed attacks so as mono bu dumping 1-3 levels in rogue you are making yourself weaker in exchange for cunning action, 1-2d6 and 2 skills you get expertise so ultimately not worth it
Also like I said as a shadow monk you can do stuff like turn invisible or cast darkness at will so that makes the cunning action pretty worthless, the expertise is kind of nice but you only need level1 rogue for that and sneak attack only works with finesse and ranged weapons, this means you it does not work with unarmed attacks and it will only add roughly 3-6 damage per turn to your attacks
Gavorn, you only get one sneak attack per turn, furthermore the bonus attacks you get from the marital arts and flurry of blows HAVE to be unarmed attacks so as mono bu dumping 1-3 levels in rogue you are making yourself weaker in exchange for cunning action, 1-2d6 and 2 skills you get expertise so ultimately not worth it
He said chances meaning you get two tries at sneak attack while straight rogue gets only 1. Also, monk weapons and unarmed strike do the same damage. There is no loss of damage. You get to deal full damage on first hit, and second hit, attempting stun on either. And you get option of using bonus for shadowporting tha auto-grants advantage on your first hit so it's a great way to guarantee a sneak attack damage on a hit.
The rogue cunning action means you can avoid having to use your ki for similar things like bonus-action dashing, you get more situational options for your bonus action without them competing and can save your ki.
Your arguments are primarily stemming from a lack of understanding of how the build is to be used an relying more on damage output which is a riduculous thing to focus on - neither monks nor rogues are designed for direct combat. They're skirmishers designed for specific types of play, tactical combat and adventuring.
cyber, your argument is based on a falsehood that monks and rogues are not made for direct combat, witch they are, a monk using all four attacks can dump alot of damage into a creature and they really don't have to move depending on the creatures average hit rating and there super high natural AC, as a monk if you are feeling really unsafe and don't want to pick up the mobile feat make them a bugbear to extend there all there attacks to 10 feet+ or a goblin with there nimble escape feature (witch lets them both hide and disengage) really a monk can be right up there with fight and barbarian as a front line damage dealer and tank if you understand how to play a monk the right way, way of the open hand and drunken master are both made to be frontline damage dealers and tanks.
as for rogue they can be some of the heaviest front line damage dealers in the game so long as you sink enough levels into them to grow the sneak attack, they get the free hide and disengage features so you can make sure to always get there sneak attack in, furthermore you can even build rogue to be a tank with a few extra feats, matter of fact the swashbuckler is made to single out and tank creatures one on one!
also as a monk you never really waste ki, it recharged in 30 minutes! that's not even a short rest, if your low on ki you can tell the group to keep going while you pop a squat and recharge and then you are fast enough to just dash on over to the rest of the group, if your a tabaxi you can get there even faster with feline agility!
really dude I spent alot of time with a few of my friends theory crafting and studying how game and combat tactics can work! to me it sounds like you are a video gamer that got into D&D and has the compulsive need to take as little damage as you can and save as many resources as you can witch in real play with a smart DM does not benefit you as they will always be pushing you to use as much of your resources as you could, more so in a high combat setting.
on top of that as I said before monk as many rogue features already in it, if you add extra monk in there all you are getting is a few d6s worth of damage and some extra skills, monk rewards you the more levels you take in it, it also rewards you for fighting like a martial artist, if I didn't say it before stunning strike is great and way of the open hand lets you knock around creatures like a ragdoll, you can flurry of blows and knock them prone and knock them 15 feet back, then you can just back up a few feet because if you forgot monks have crazy movement speed (and once again this gets even more crazy if you are a tabaxi) if you are really worried about damage or have taken alot, step of the wind out of there and drink a healing potion or let a someone who can heal tend do your wound and get back in there! once more ki is extremely EXPENDABLE while the feature says you need a short or a long rest you only need 30 minutes! so you can start a short rest without your group, spend only 30 minutes of the hour getting your ki back and then dash back to them, at lower levels you should be careful when you spend them at higher levels when you are sitting on 5+ you can just burn them all you like, combat rarely goes on for more than 5 turns on little things and on big things you are going to want to use that ki to sink as much damage into a creature as you can! I remember awhile ago I was a way of the four elements monk and we came across a wizard with many foes in our way and I had 2 ki left, did I do what you would have done and held back? nope! I water whipped that wizard and pulled him toward me and the fight where we were able to sink in enough damage before he blew cone of cold and killed us all with it! there are 4 super important things in combat that you are forgetting or don't know: always deal as much damage as you can (things can hurt you if they are dead) if you are able, heal others if you are able (and when you don't need to heal anyone, DEAL DAMAGE) if you are not good at healing or damage find other ways to support the group with crowd control or support buffs and lastly: if your getting your ass handed to you run away (while dealing damage if you can!)
Keep in mind that sneak attack does not work with unarmed strikes. Monk/Rogue is mostly a trap for non-Kensei monks.
Daggers are still monk weapons, so not sure where you are coming from here. You get sneak attack chances on 2 of your 3 attacks.
Read my second post. Monk weapons are great, and both Dagger and Shortsword qualify for sneak attack. Unfortunately, a lot of players choose to play completely unarmed monks.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Keep in mind that sneak attack does not work with unarmed strikes. Monk/Rogue is mostly a trap for non-Kensei monks.
Daggers are still monk weapons, so not sure where you are coming from here. You get sneak attack chances on 2 of your 3 attacks.
Read my second post. Monk weapons are great, and both Dagger and Shortsword qualify for sneak attack. Unfortunately, a lot of players choose to play completely unarmed monks.
" Martial Arts
Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield.
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn.
Certain monasteries use specialized forms of the monk weapons. For example, you might use a club that is two lengths of wood connected by a short chain (called a nunchaku) or a sickle with a shorter, straighter blade (called a kama)."
as you can clearly read for the bonus action attack you can only a UNARMED STRIKE, you can't use anything that is a monk weapon, it has to a unarmed strike, if you have a alternate unarmed strike like bite or claws you can use those (as they are attached to your body) but you can't use normal weapons, you can 100% do that for your normal attacks by all means, you can even use a weapon in two hands like a spear or even a longsword (if your way of the kensei and picked that as your weapon) but for the bonus strike you can not use a weapon at all even if it is somehow attached to your fist (like brass knuckles, or you are a warforged and you have a dagger welded so your fist) it needs to be a basic unarmed strike.
that being said if you make a attack with monk weapon that has the light property you can use two weapon fighting IF you have another weapon with the light property you can make a bonus action attack with the second weapon but you will not be able to add your ability score bonus to the damage of the attack.
Nobody here is unclear on how Martial Arts works, and nobody is talking about two-weapon fighting. I don't know what you're trying to argue?
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
A Monk is good for combat but not designed for direct combat. What I mean by this is that they are not the build to just stand there and attack away. To use a monk effectively in battle you may often need to use skirmishing tactics, to get in deal damage and, if unable to stun, back away. If your monk is left to just stand there they can find themselves overwhelmed when faced directly. That's the key word, here: "directly". They are designed for combat, yes, but not direct combat. Direct combat is just standing there, moving from enemy to enemy, attacking and attacking. Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins are better designed for "direct" combat: they get good Con, good health and the proficiencies or features to get high AC quickly. Nearly all of their features are combat-focused. A monk however, will struggle to get decent Con: their ability scores needs to focus on Strength or Dex and Wisdom. They will struggle in using armour and shields as the use of such can block their features so they are forced to rely on Unarmoured Defence to add their Wisdom to their AC. But any direct fighting requires a lot of health to soak the danage: but they cannot use Con as a focused stat (unless they rolled really well or seriously min-max) and with their lesser hit dice they are going to have a smaller pool of health. They get decent AC, yes, but not as good as a Barbarian, and the magic items for AC boosts offer less options compared to the many magical armours and shields available to the more direct combatants.
Using a monk in combat means you must skirmish and play tactfully. You need to rely on its other varied defensive features and movement to stay alive.
And a Monk is more than just some combat-guy. They get features that go beyond combat. Their movement exceeds the scope of battle use and can go into exploration side of things, their proficiency in all saving throws will help both in and out of combat, their ability to communicate with any language (tongue of sun and moon) is a purely non-combat feature, purity of mind and body can help in some battles and also helps outside of it, timeless body is a purely RP effect and very rarely ever help in battle, empty body has both combat and non-combat uses with more uses being outside combat and explorative.
Compare to the Barbarians and Fighters and Paladins whose features are nearly entirely based on direct combat and you clearly see there is a difference in design. Monks are good for combat: but they are good for more than combat and are not "direct" combatants. Fighters and Barbarians, for example, will struggle to find usefulness outside of the battle and when in battle can be more direct.
The Rogue is similar to the Monk in that, again, it is not direct combatant and has even less features for combat. They are skirmishers: they cannot just stand there to attack, they need to get in, deal damage, and get out. Their SNeak Attack is good to give great damage output but that's not the same as being a direct-combatant: they need to skirmish and play tactfully because they will struggle in direct battle for much of the same reasons as a Monk. They need to move out and play to their defenses. And they have less combat-focused features than a Monk does. Rogues are partly designed for indirect combat and partly designed as skill-monkeys. The rogue subclasses are also less combat-focused than monk subclasses.
Rogues and Monks do have some overlap but this also offers flexibility when it comes to multiclassing: you won't delay the feature, like Evasion, since no matter which one you level up you get closer to it. Some overlap like Cunning Action improves the Monks ki bonus actions - by basically letting you do them for free or adding an extra option. Likewise you get extra reaction options. The extra options let you be more adaptable to different circumstances.
Shadow Monks have extras that really combine well with the Rogue. As an Assassin Rogue the Pass Without Trace or Silence and your shadowporting can very easily help you get the drop on the enemy and surprise them.
Use your main action to stab with your shortsword : you can have 2 attacks, so that is 2 attempts to sneak attack where a Rogue would have only one attempt, and then, if you want, you can use your bonus action to make 1 unarmed attack (martial arts) or 2 unarmed attacks (flurry of blows), or you can shadowport 60 ft away to safety.
You are right that I am a video gamer. I also played monks and rogues in 3.5 e D&D over 15 years ago and have been theorycrafting builds just as long. You also theorycraft builds in a similar way in some videogames, by the way, including the D&D videogames. Experience with videogames built around the same formats as D&D only adds to ones D&D experience not detracts from it. In fact many RPG videogames owe their existence to D&D and similar TTRPGs and there is a lot of similar design elements.
You think I hold back with my ki and I have no idea where you are getting this from. Nothing I have said should make you think this. I have said the cunning action lets you save ki for other things which isn't the same as what you're suggesting. How does me pointing out that cunning action means you can save your ki for Flurries and Stuns and such as, make you think I'm super-hesitant about ki use? My 4E Monk burned all of his Ki into a single mountain punch attack to knock down a dragon and spent the rest of the fight without any ki at all, and still did great. But my advice isn't based on 4E monks because this thread is about Shadow Monks with Rogue multiclassing. So discussing anything other than a Shadow Monk is therefore pointless and somewhat off-topic.
I don't know why you're trying to tell me how to play D&D. Nothing I've said in this thread (or on this site at all) would even remotely suggest I am new to this. I'm quite familiar with your suggestions (probably more than you considering you can't even differentiate between "direct combat" and "skirmishing" XD). I've played rogues and monks for 15 years. I've played 3.5, 4e and 5th editions. I also played Pathfinder and Werewolf:The Apocalypse. And I've played videogames similar to D&D or actual D&D (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter) and such games that require the same build/theorycrafting as being discussed here for over 20 years. I'm not an expert, but I am very familiar with these builds and discussion, thank you. I don't care if you have more experience than me, I will use my experience and knowledge before yours.
A Shadow Monk Rogue is not the best damage dealing multiclass or the most efficient multiclassing: but it is helpful, and incredibly fun (which is the most important part).
My advice to you, if I may:
actually read what people are saying instead of skim-reading and making assumptions before replying to them
learn the difference between "direct combat" and "skirmishing" (especially if you're going to go off about how experienced you are at theorycrafting, knowing this difference is a fundamental basic of such so it doesn't make you look good.
actually pay attention to what people say (you're telling Sigred to "back down" about using weapons for bonus attacks when they never said anything about that: they mentioned using monk weapons for the MAIN attack for Sneak Attacking, they did not mention using a weapon for the martial arts bonus / flurry of blows so you're coming across as rather aggressive to somebody about something they never actually said).
so sigred first you tell me that that you can make the bonus attack from martial arts with a weapon then you back down, boy you be trolling.
I have never said that. I have not said that in this thread, nor anywhere else. I do believe you are the one being a troll here.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Here's the problem. Rogues can actually have those two chances a turn to backstab because they can actually dual wield. Nothing is actually stopping them from doing so. There are even arguably benefits for building towards doing just that.
Rogues and Monks do have some overlap yes. But they have a greater issue why they don't really mix. They are both classes that thrive on heavy level investment. The early benefits of miving a few levels early are going to be outweighed by the mid tier levels. For the Monk side of things those three levels used to Get Assassin could have instead be used to bump you up to the next damage die or pick up an important ASI or possibly other class feature (like extra attack and stunning strike at 5th level). For the Rogue not only are you picking up important features at many different levels but that three level difference is netting you one if not 2 extra sneak attack dice which are actually going to net you more damage, not to mention the whole ASI thing.
Also Assassin rogue's are kind of over rated. Even when your building towards their extreme conditions. There are many things that can throw the silence plan out of whack. And there are going to potentially be issues and put guards on alert if you start dropping magical bubbles of darkness around. Both have some flaws if any of the guards happen to have anything close to a high passive perception because your doing far more than just sneaking. Arguably the most valuable thing that an Assassin brings to the table is at level 5 with extra attack. making it so that you don't have to dual wield to get your two sneak attack chances. But arguments can be made that other Rogue subclasses may actually have something better to offer. And possibly at lower level investments. (second story work from the thief archetype can basically give you a climb speed, Or the one I'd suggest for the Tabaxi. Fancy footwork from the Swashbuckler archetype basically can give a bunch of free disengages just for attempting to hit targets. It synergizes extremely nicely for monks without trying to set up situational moments.)
Hitting a guy in the face with potential sneak attack damage and just plain walking away from him can be very useful. But even better is that Fancy footwork doesn't even require you to use a weapon capable of sneak attack so you can use your martial arts and shut down reaction attacks against you just for trying to hit them. Combining that with a character that's mostly a shadow monk meant to pop up and hit people all over the place. Far more powerful than hoping to hit them unaware on the first turn because you can do it any time in any combat.
So I have a first level Tabaxi Rogue with ability scores of 11 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis and 17 Cha that I intend to multiclass into a Shadow monk with my 4th level
Originally I was musing with the idea of taking the scout roguish archetype, but have recently had some doubts after looking into assassin a bit
I was hoping for any other opinions on these two ideas for this multiclass, whether popping out of a shadow for an automatic crit on an unsuspecting foe or a massive amount of mobility piqued your interest more, how youd go about these combinations with feats and level dispersion etc. or perhaps even whether youd use a different rogue subclass instead!
Thanks in advance :)
I personally think Assassin is a "trap"
The Assassinate ability requires gaining Suprise for any hit to become a critical. Surprise is hard to pull off, depends on your party, and it's often nearly impossible to surprise the bosses.
The ability to get Advantage on all attack rolls against anyone who hasn't gone yet, only works on the 1st turn of combat.
Think about if you want your lvl 3 Rogue ability to be something that triggers once a combat for one part and if at all for the really cool one. Or do the bonuses you get from other rogue sub-classes which can trigger every round.
I'd consider the swashbuckler for the mobility aspect of that archetype. Fancy footwork (if you hit the target they don;t get their attack of opportunity against you if you move away) is awesome and saves your disengage ki ability so you can use that precious ki on something else. Rakish audacity, if you're all isolated on the battlefield, means that you can use you sneak attack without requiring advantage if no allies/enemies except your target are within 5 feet of you. Using fancy footwork that shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I've not done it myself but it though assassin sounds more thematically akin to shadow monk. swashbuckler could aid you more in the long term.
Keep in mind that sneak attack does not work with unarmed strikes. Monk/Rogue is mostly a trap for non-Kensei monks.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't understand how people keep saying it's a trap?
Shadow Monk casts Pass Without Trace, the group moves steathily up, the Shadow Rogue goes ahead and then shadowports to enemy to assassin strike with his shortsword with advantage and potential auto-crit and stunning strike before backing off ready to sneak/attack again. The party knows this is the time to attack and rush forward. Rest of fight is spent shadowport-sneak-attacking.
I had a lot of fun and use of this with my Shadow Monk Assassin Rogue Tabaxi. When you see multiple guards ahead, the group lays low, you cast silence then shadow port in, assassinate guard (with stun if they survive). And ready to move onto next guard who will be entirely unsuspecting.
Do realise the initiative rulings and surprise are based on a whole combat group ambush and were not designed on specific cases of a single assassination. If a character is not in combat and entirely unaware of the assassin until a blade is launched into their skull they are surprised. If there are multiple guards but were unable to see or hear or have any ability to be aware of that assassination, they remain vulnerable to being assassinated. If you really want to stick to initiatives: the combat only involves those directly in it: the assassin and their target, keep in between those two and roll init, then apply surprise etc. Personally I stick to common sense and awareness-factor.
Also remember, it makes no difference at all what any book says: it's what the DM rules.
Even sticking to RAW I had a blast with my character - and even more fun when not sticking to RAW because my DM is cool.
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It's a trap because most players (particularly those that are playing a race with natural weapons) that want to pick up Rogue levels with their Monk do so because "Oh, I'll get to add sneak attack too. Awesome!" without realizing unarmed strikes & natural weapons do not carry the Finesse property. These are also the players that tend to not utilize a finesse monk weapon at all, and rely purely on their unarmed strike.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
the two classes go ok together but it classes a bit, the hide as a bonus action from rogue is nice but monk deals the majority of its damage by using its bonus action for extra attacks, alot of people want to make rogues with extra attacks and let me tell you, rogues do not need it, early (1-3) on the heavy damage dealers in the game are paladin (smite spells and divine smite will deal around or well over 20 damage) monks ( you get 3 attacks starting at level 2! that is 1d4+dex 3 times, even with just 16 dex that is a minimum of 12 damage and average of 15 damage) and rogues (even with just one attack the extra sneak attack damage will let you one hit kill most low CR creatures)
that being said if you plan on acting as a rogue when playing as a monk, using the bonus action will hide will lose you 1-2 attacks and if your only taking 1-3 levels in rogue the 2d6 damage you get is not worth it! besides as a shadow monk you can just be invisible so I suggest one or the other but not both because as a monk you are going to want to use your bonus action for martial arts or flurry of blows, if you really want the free disengage as a bonus action take the feat mobile and choose your footing well.
Daggers are still monk weapons, so not sure where you are coming from here. You get sneak attack chances on 2 of your 3 attacks.
Gavorn, you only get one sneak attack per turn, furthermore the bonus attacks you get from the marital arts and flurry of blows HAVE to be unarmed attacks so as mono bu dumping 1-3 levels in rogue you are making yourself weaker in exchange for cunning action, 1-2d6 and 2 skills you get expertise so ultimately not worth it
Also like I said as a shadow monk you can do stuff like turn invisible or cast darkness at will so that makes the cunning action pretty worthless, the expertise is kind of nice but you only need level1 rogue for that and sneak attack only works with finesse and ranged weapons, this means you it does not work with unarmed attacks and it will only add roughly 3-6 damage per turn to your attacks
He said chances meaning you get two tries at sneak attack while straight rogue gets only 1. Also, monk weapons and unarmed strike do the same damage. There is no loss of damage. You get to deal full damage on first hit, and second hit, attempting stun on either. And you get option of using bonus for shadowporting tha auto-grants advantage on your first hit so it's a great way to guarantee a sneak attack damage on a hit.
The rogue cunning action means you can avoid having to use your ki for similar things like bonus-action dashing, you get more situational options for your bonus action without them competing and can save your ki.
Your arguments are primarily stemming from a lack of understanding of how the build is to be used an relying more on damage output which is a riduculous thing to focus on - neither monks nor rogues are designed for direct combat. They're skirmishers designed for specific types of play, tactical combat and adventuring.
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cyber, your argument is based on a falsehood that monks and rogues are not made for direct combat, witch they are, a monk using all four attacks can dump alot of damage into a creature and they really don't have to move depending on the creatures average hit rating and there super high natural AC, as a monk if you are feeling really unsafe and don't want to pick up the mobile feat make them a bugbear to extend there all there attacks to 10 feet+ or a goblin with there nimble escape feature (witch lets them both hide and disengage) really a monk can be right up there with fight and barbarian as a front line damage dealer and tank if you understand how to play a monk the right way, way of the open hand and drunken master are both made to be frontline damage dealers and tanks.
as for rogue they can be some of the heaviest front line damage dealers in the game so long as you sink enough levels into them to grow the sneak attack, they get the free hide and disengage features so you can make sure to always get there sneak attack in, furthermore you can even build rogue to be a tank with a few extra feats, matter of fact the swashbuckler is made to single out and tank creatures one on one!
also as a monk you never really waste ki, it recharged in 30 minutes! that's not even a short rest, if your low on ki you can tell the group to keep going while you pop a squat and recharge and then you are fast enough to just dash on over to the rest of the group, if your a tabaxi you can get there even faster with feline agility!
really dude I spent alot of time with a few of my friends theory crafting and studying how game and combat tactics can work! to me it sounds like you are a video gamer that got into D&D and has the compulsive need to take as little damage as you can and save as many resources as you can witch in real play with a smart DM does not benefit you as they will always be pushing you to use as much of your resources as you could, more so in a high combat setting.
on top of that as I said before monk as many rogue features already in it, if you add extra monk in there all you are getting is a few d6s worth of damage and some extra skills, monk rewards you the more levels you take in it, it also rewards you for fighting like a martial artist, if I didn't say it before stunning strike is great and way of the open hand lets you knock around creatures like a ragdoll, you can flurry of blows and knock them prone and knock them 15 feet back, then you can just back up a few feet because if you forgot monks have crazy movement speed (and once again this gets even more crazy if you are a tabaxi) if you are really worried about damage or have taken alot, step of the wind out of there and drink a healing potion or let a someone who can heal tend do your wound and get back in there! once more ki is extremely EXPENDABLE while the feature says you need a short or a long rest you only need 30 minutes! so you can start a short rest without your group, spend only 30 minutes of the hour getting your ki back and then dash back to them, at lower levels you should be careful when you spend them at higher levels when you are sitting on 5+ you can just burn them all you like, combat rarely goes on for more than 5 turns on little things and on big things you are going to want to use that ki to sink as much damage into a creature as you can! I remember awhile ago I was a way of the four elements monk and we came across a wizard with many foes in our way and I had 2 ki left, did I do what you would have done and held back? nope! I water whipped that wizard and pulled him toward me and the fight where we were able to sink in enough damage before he blew cone of cold and killed us all with it! there are 4 super important things in combat that you are forgetting or don't know: always deal as much damage as you can (things can hurt you if they are dead) if you are able, heal others if you are able (and when you don't need to heal anyone, DEAL DAMAGE) if you are not good at healing or damage find other ways to support the group with crowd control or support buffs and lastly: if your getting your ass handed to you run away (while dealing damage if you can!)
Read my second post. Monk weapons are great, and both Dagger and Shortsword qualify for sneak attack. Unfortunately, a lot of players choose to play completely unarmed monks.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
" Martial Arts
Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield.
Certain monasteries use specialized forms of the monk weapons. For example, you might use a club that is two lengths of wood connected by a short chain (called a nunchaku) or a sickle with a shorter, straighter blade (called a kama)."
as you can clearly read for the bonus action attack you can only a UNARMED STRIKE, you can't use anything that is a monk weapon, it has to a unarmed strike, if you have a alternate unarmed strike like bite or claws you can use those (as they are attached to your body) but you can't use normal weapons, you can 100% do that for your normal attacks by all means, you can even use a weapon in two hands like a spear or even a longsword (if your way of the kensei and picked that as your weapon) but for the bonus strike you can not use a weapon at all even if it is somehow attached to your fist (like brass knuckles, or you are a warforged and you have a dagger welded so your fist) it needs to be a basic unarmed strike.
that being said if you make a attack with monk weapon that has the light property you can use two weapon fighting IF you have another weapon with the light property you can make a bonus action attack with the second weapon but you will not be able to add your ability score bonus to the damage of the attack.
Nobody here is unclear on how Martial Arts works, and nobody is talking about two-weapon fighting. I don't know what you're trying to argue?
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
so sigred first you tell me that that you can make the bonus attack from martial arts with a weapon then you back down, boy you be trolling.
A Monk is good for combat but not designed for direct combat. What I mean by this is that they are not the build to just stand there and attack away. To use a monk effectively in battle you may often need to use skirmishing tactics, to get in deal damage and, if unable to stun, back away. If your monk is left to just stand there they can find themselves overwhelmed when faced directly. That's the key word, here: "directly". They are designed for combat, yes, but not direct combat. Direct combat is just standing there, moving from enemy to enemy, attacking and attacking. Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins are better designed for "direct" combat: they get good Con, good health and the proficiencies or features to get high AC quickly. Nearly all of their features are combat-focused. A monk however, will struggle to get decent Con: their ability scores needs to focus on Strength or Dex and Wisdom. They will struggle in using armour and shields as the use of such can block their features so they are forced to rely on Unarmoured Defence to add their Wisdom to their AC. But any direct fighting requires a lot of health to soak the danage: but they cannot use Con as a focused stat (unless they rolled really well or seriously min-max) and with their lesser hit dice they are going to have a smaller pool of health. They get decent AC, yes, but not as good as a Barbarian, and the magic items for AC boosts offer less options compared to the many magical armours and shields available to the more direct combatants.
Using a monk in combat means you must skirmish and play tactfully. You need to rely on its other varied defensive features and movement to stay alive.
And a Monk is more than just some combat-guy. They get features that go beyond combat. Their movement exceeds the scope of battle use and can go into exploration side of things, their proficiency in all saving throws will help both in and out of combat, their ability to communicate with any language (tongue of sun and moon) is a purely non-combat feature, purity of mind and body can help in some battles and also helps outside of it, timeless body is a purely RP effect and very rarely ever help in battle, empty body has both combat and non-combat uses with more uses being outside combat and explorative.
Compare to the Barbarians and Fighters and Paladins whose features are nearly entirely based on direct combat and you clearly see there is a difference in design. Monks are good for combat: but they are good for more than combat and are not "direct" combatants. Fighters and Barbarians, for example, will struggle to find usefulness outside of the battle and when in battle can be more direct.
The Rogue is similar to the Monk in that, again, it is not direct combatant and has even less features for combat. They are skirmishers: they cannot just stand there to attack, they need to get in, deal damage, and get out. Their SNeak Attack is good to give great damage output but that's not the same as being a direct-combatant: they need to skirmish and play tactfully because they will struggle in direct battle for much of the same reasons as a Monk. They need to move out and play to their defenses. And they have less combat-focused features than a Monk does. Rogues are partly designed for indirect combat and partly designed as skill-monkeys. The rogue subclasses are also less combat-focused than monk subclasses.
Rogues and Monks do have some overlap but this also offers flexibility when it comes to multiclassing: you won't delay the feature, like Evasion, since no matter which one you level up you get closer to it. Some overlap like Cunning Action improves the Monks ki bonus actions - by basically letting you do them for free or adding an extra option. Likewise you get extra reaction options. The extra options let you be more adaptable to different circumstances.
Shadow Monks have extras that really combine well with the Rogue. As an Assassin Rogue the Pass Without Trace or Silence and your shadowporting can very easily help you get the drop on the enemy and surprise them.
Use your main action to stab with your shortsword : you can have 2 attacks, so that is 2 attempts to sneak attack where a Rogue would have only one attempt, and then, if you want, you can use your bonus action to make 1 unarmed attack (martial arts) or 2 unarmed attacks (flurry of blows), or you can shadowport 60 ft away to safety.
You are right that I am a video gamer. I also played monks and rogues in 3.5 e D&D over 15 years ago and have been theorycrafting builds just as long. You also theorycraft builds in a similar way in some videogames, by the way, including the D&D videogames. Experience with videogames built around the same formats as D&D only adds to ones D&D experience not detracts from it. In fact many RPG videogames owe their existence to D&D and similar TTRPGs and there is a lot of similar design elements.
You think I hold back with my ki and I have no idea where you are getting this from. Nothing I have said should make you think this. I have said the cunning action lets you save ki for other things which isn't the same as what you're suggesting. How does me pointing out that cunning action means you can save your ki for Flurries and Stuns and such as, make you think I'm super-hesitant about ki use? My 4E Monk burned all of his Ki into a single mountain punch attack to knock down a dragon and spent the rest of the fight without any ki at all, and still did great. But my advice isn't based on 4E monks because this thread is about Shadow Monks with Rogue multiclassing. So discussing anything other than a Shadow Monk is therefore pointless and somewhat off-topic.
I don't know why you're trying to tell me how to play D&D. Nothing I've said in this thread (or on this site at all) would even remotely suggest I am new to this. I'm quite familiar with your suggestions (probably more than you considering you can't even differentiate between "direct combat" and "skirmishing" XD). I've played rogues and monks for 15 years. I've played 3.5, 4e and 5th editions. I also played Pathfinder and Werewolf:The Apocalypse. And I've played videogames similar to D&D or actual D&D (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter) and such games that require the same build/theorycrafting as being discussed here for over 20 years. I'm not an expert, but I am very familiar with these builds and discussion, thank you. I don't care if you have more experience than me, I will use my experience and knowledge before yours.
A Shadow Monk Rogue is not the best damage dealing multiclass or the most efficient multiclassing: but it is helpful, and incredibly fun (which is the most important part).
My advice to you, if I may:
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I have never said that. I have not said that in this thread, nor anywhere else. I do believe you are the one being a troll here.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Here's the problem. Rogues can actually have those two chances a turn to backstab because they can actually dual wield. Nothing is actually stopping them from doing so. There are even arguably benefits for building towards doing just that.
Rogues and Monks do have some overlap yes. But they have a greater issue why they don't really mix. They are both classes that thrive on heavy level investment. The early benefits of miving a few levels early are going to be outweighed by the mid tier levels. For the Monk side of things those three levels used to Get Assassin could have instead be used to bump you up to the next damage die or pick up an important ASI or possibly other class feature (like extra attack and stunning strike at 5th level). For the Rogue not only are you picking up important features at many different levels but that three level difference is netting you one if not 2 extra sneak attack dice which are actually going to net you more damage, not to mention the whole ASI thing.
Also Assassin rogue's are kind of over rated. Even when your building towards their extreme conditions. There are many things that can throw the silence plan out of whack. And there are going to potentially be issues and put guards on alert if you start dropping magical bubbles of darkness around. Both have some flaws if any of the guards happen to have anything close to a high passive perception because your doing far more than just sneaking. Arguably the most valuable thing that an Assassin brings to the table is at level 5 with extra attack. making it so that you don't have to dual wield to get your two sneak attack chances. But arguments can be made that other Rogue subclasses may actually have something better to offer. And possibly at lower level investments. (second story work from the thief archetype can basically give you a climb speed, Or the one I'd suggest for the Tabaxi. Fancy footwork from the Swashbuckler archetype basically can give a bunch of free disengages just for attempting to hit targets. It synergizes extremely nicely for monks without trying to set up situational moments.)
Hitting a guy in the face with potential sneak attack damage and just plain walking away from him can be very useful. But even better is that Fancy footwork doesn't even require you to use a weapon capable of sneak attack so you can use your martial arts and shut down reaction attacks against you just for trying to hit them. Combining that with a character that's mostly a shadow monk meant to pop up and hit people all over the place. Far more powerful than hoping to hit them unaware on the first turn because you can do it any time in any combat.