I've been messing around with and idea for a character that hunts down undead. Paladin seems to be the best choice for the stronger undead, but I also thought about multi-classing into ranger for the Monster Slayer perks. I'm currently thinking about Oath of Devotion 17/ Monster Slayer 3. Any thoughts?
There's nothing inherently wrong with a multiclass that is just 3 levels of another class. At the end of the day, this is going to be mostly a paladin, and there's nothing wrong with that... HOWEVER--
Monster Slayer's benefits, on their own, are kinda lackluster at lvl 3. Slasher's Prey is like a poor man's Hunter's Mark, but it is free, so there's that... Hunter's sense is kinda like metagaming, but that's something you don't necessarily need if you've played against enough undead to know what works on them and what doesn't
My biggest issue is that Paladin is already a MAD enough class. Adding in Ranger to the mix means you have to meet those prerequisite stats of having 13 wis and 13 dex, AND the 13 str and 13 cha from paladin. If you were to use a point buy system, meeting all those requirements means you'd only then have enough to set your CON to 14, and that's it. You would almost be forced to play as a regular human that gets a +1 to all their stats, so that way you'll have a +2 mod in all your important stats.
I personally don't like playing with anything less than +3 mod in my main stats to start with. But hey, if you don't mind starting with a +2, go for it.
I would suggest Battlemaster Fighter or Rune Knight instead of Monster Slayer. The maneuvers/runes are going to be more generally helpful to the paladin side of things without the MAD previously mentioned.
You lose out on the devotion level 20 power: advantage against spells cast by undead (and fiends) and an aura of passive radiant damage. If you’re an undead hunter, those are tough to beat compared to a level 3 power from any other class. You also give up having your auras grow to 30 feet, a level 19 asi, and a fifth level spell slot. I’d say there’s no 3-level dip worth that.
You lose out on the devotion level 20 power: advantage against spells cast by undead (and fiends) and an aura of passive radiant damage. If you’re an undead hunter, those are tough to beat compared to a level 3 power from any other class. You also give up having your auras grow to 30 feet, a level 19 asi, and a fifth level spell slot. I’d say there’s no 3-level dip worth that.
This is fair as well...I think that a dip is more worth it if you do not think you will make it all the way to 20...but if you are then yeah full Paladin is the way to go.
OR if you are planning on going to 20...look into Scoradins (Sorcerer/Paladin). They take a long time to come online but they are quite possibly the hardest PC to kill at later levels
You lose out on the devotion level 20 power: advantage against spells cast by undead (and fiends) and an aura of passive radiant damage. If you’re an undead hunter, those are tough to beat compared to a level 3 power from any other class. You also give up having your auras grow to 30 feet, a level 19 asi, and a fifth level spell slot. I’d say there’s no 3-level dip worth that.
Nonsense! A lvl 3 dip is so worth it. Let's keep something in mind, the features you can have from multi passing can very well outweigh the benefits of an extra ASI, especially if you're capped on your main stat.
Also, at lvl 20 resources are abundant and a non factor; you should be able to buy or create as many 5th lvl spell scrolls as you like, so having one less slot is hardly a negative.
And another thing, devotion's capstone ain't no conquest nor ancients capstone. Let's not kid ourselves here, you'll have just as much mileage with a holy avenger, and you don't need full 20 lvls for that.
By the time you would get a 30 ft aura at lvl 18, most everyone is gonna be OP anyways. If 10 ft served you just fine for the last 18 lvls, it'll serve you fine for the next two.
Fact of the matter is an entire career with some fun MC lvls outweighs most of what you get from any capstone unless it's AL where lvl 20 is an inevitability.
The spell slot is for smiting. No scroll can do that. Though I actually may have been wrong about that for a different reason, with two half casters, I think you do keep the spell slot. So I’ll take that argument off the board, thanks for making me think about it. There is no guarantee you will have any of these abundant magic items, in particular a legendary item like a holy avenger. Maybe your dm gives it to you, maybe they don’t. It’s campaign-dependent; powers listed in the book are guaranteed.
A 30-foot aura is simply better than 10. It’s math. 10 works, but given the choice, 30 is better. And depending on party composition, you may not even have been getting much use from the 10. A level 3 power might be nice, but with pallys being MAD as they are, an ability score boost will likely help you (and your party if you put it in cha) more reliably. Compared to hunter’s sense, which is basically useless. And slayer’s prey, which gives you an extra d6 once a round which isn’t nothing, but at level 20, 3.5 points of damage is pretty close to nothing.
You give up three high level features to get one low level feature. Not worth the trade.
The spell slot is for smiting. No scroll can do that. Though I actually may have been wrong about that for a different reason, with two half casters, I think you do keep the spell slot. So I’ll take that argument off the board, thanks for making me think about it. There is no guarantee you will have any of these abundant magic items, in particular a legendary item like a holy avenger. Maybe your dm gives it to you, maybe they don’t. It’s campaign-dependent; powers listed in the book are guaranteed.
A 30-foot aura is simply better than 10. It’s math. 10 works, but given the choice, 30 is better. And depending on party composition, you may not even have been getting much use from the 10. A level 3 power might be nice, but with pallys being MAD as they are, an ability score boost will likely help you (and your party if you put it in cha) more reliably. Compared to hunter’s sense, which is basically useless. And slayer’s prey, which gives you an extra d6 once a round which isn’t nothing, but at level 20, 3.5 points of damage is pretty close to nothing.
You give up three high level features to get one low level feature. Not worth the trade.
This is assuming you are going to level 20 though too....the original post does say they plan on going to 20 but in reality that does not happen.
It is fair to potentially ask if level 20 is a given or if they are hoping for that outcome. Also in my limited experience with high level play you rarely get a lot of time between level 17 and 20 before the campaign ends.
High level DnD is not really tenable unforunately...it just is not good for long term periods of play.
Oh, don't misunderstand me, I'm not arguing in favor for monster slayer, but lvl 3 dips in general. 3 lvls of hexblade, worth it. 3 lvls of sorcerer, worth. Bard, worth. ANY fighter, definitely WURF.
Hold on a second here are we arguing a Character build or are we arguing what most campaigns normally end at. The point at which campaigns generally end has no basis on a discussion about the effectiveness of a build because it's not worth it. When are you going to take your 3 level multiclass? Before level 4 absolutely not because then you miss an early ASI increase or feat. At Level 5? No because you you put off getting a second attack till level 8. At 6th level? No because you put off Aura of Protection. Level 7? No because you put off another Spell slot and immunity to being charmed for yourself and allies. Level 8? No because it's another ASI. Level 3 spell slots are next turn and at this point we loose any viability of multiclassing before 10 levels. In fact most people that multiclass do so in the teens as far as leveling goes. Not in the single digits. The only time when multiclassing is generally done before this is because the player has no care about the difficulty it will bring in those early levels.
I know this because both my main Paladins are multiclass characters. One doesnt multiclass until between lvl 13-15 and the other multi classes at level 5. He isnt as hard to play only because the insane amount of damage he puts on on a single attack and his story revolves around a quest for 3 very specific magical times that are need to work togther that make him that powerful.
I agree with Xalthu on this though it's generally not worth multiclassing Paladins because of how good they are. That being said though they are very powerful when done and when done correctly. Multiclassing does not make you an instant super powerful character like some new players believe. You are generally weaker for a portion of time.
That being said a Ranger is entirely to MAD to multiclass it. I push it with multiclassing with a war cleric but that's a whole other level and not worth the cost. The only way this could remotely work with out giving up to many abilities is by rolling the dice and being a scourge aasimar.
I think auras are overrated. Powerful, and the point of paladins to begin with of course, but they're not this one feature that makes the whole class unplayable if you delay it. Personally speaking, I've played a number of paladin multiclasses, and they've done it at first level, and another branched off at lvl 2. Fact of the matter is your saves are just like everyone else's-- adequate as the game intended, and there's nothing wrong with being at that level for a little while longer until you get the rest of your features.
The only multiclass that sucked for a bit was my fighter paladin, but only at lvl 5 cause it was t2 and I was still stuck at attacking once per turn. Other than that, what a great, effective character that one turned out to be. You have an easier time with caster multiclasses because you can have cantrips that scale with your level without sacrificing much of anything. My hexadin, he's started out with 1 paladin before branching into warlock. Totally fine because EB and GFB took good care of him when he was stuck at one attack while everyone else attacked twice.
Its really not the end of the world to multiclass during t1 or t2. Sure, you're not insta-OP either, but you also don't ruin a character either. The game is beautiful in it's balance in that if you multiclass or not, you have a strong character. But you get perks and benefits as well as draw backs for any decisions, including the decision to not multiclass.
Also, only devotion gets charm immunity, so it's not on every paladin.
The fact that you think the Aura is overrated has me questioning how much your multiclass are Paladin vs another class with a dip in Paladin and how you actually play a Paladin. Having your saving throws increase is the bane of DMs. Especially that you can increase your parties saves as well. It's not an overrated ability. Having the ability to put three saves in the teens makes it a virtual auto save. Further you arent just putting off your increase of saves. You are putting off every ability and spell slot the Paladin has after for 3 lvls which can take a while.
Now I'm really questioning your decision making on multiclassing when you say it only delays you by a single level. Taking one level in Paladin and the rest in something like fighter is just plain stupid. You dont gain much from it besides 5 points of lay on hands and different saves and instead delay every single fighter ability which far outstrips anything you get from 1 lvl of Paladin.
I further question your understanding of multiclass characters as you think they seem to be equal in power compared to a full class. This is absolutely not the case until the mid teens of levels and even then it's an iffy arguement depending on how you built your race, amount of levels, etc.
No shit bud do you think I'm someone that does not build Paladins? The OPs question was solely about a Devotion Paladin multiclass.
As an additional point I've played AL with a player that made a hexadin while I was a full Paladin. The joke at the table was we had a Paladin and someone who thought he was.
Here's the thing, most of what a paladin has to offer tapers off after lvl 6, maybe 7 in some cases. Fear immunity? A bit if extra passive damage? I'm not convinced those features are on equal footing with having a paladin that has better progression with a full caster MC.
I've played a full paladin, purebred. Weakest one of the bunch. But he's a paladin so still effective. Lvl 16 Oath of glory, relies on haste and mounted combatant. Zariel teifling so he can double smite a couple times per day. An absolute mobile machine, fun, but he's not pulling the same numbers as the other guys. He also has expertise in athletics, and boots of striding and springing so he can grapple and jump several dozen feet into the air with his victims.
I've got my fighter paladin. 3 into battle master, 15 into devotion paladin. He started with one level of fighter for con save proficiency. I play that one as a GWM build as the idea is to have great sustainable damage with as little spell slot use as possible. Turn on a persistent buff during combat like crusader's mantle, spirit shroud, w/e, and rely more on maneuvers and channel divinity.
My hexadin is fun. 11 paladin, 9 hexblade. ofc, he's a half elf, with elven accuracy and oath of vengeance. Boat loads of fun to be able to crit easily and dump a double smite for 22d8s , and regain it all on a short rest. He started one paladin, then switched until 5 warlock, then back to paladin until 11. Also a GWM build. Sure, he didn't get his aura until the start of t3, but he did fine without it just like most non paladins do. Honestly, the sheer versatility is just amazing. Great ranged options that I've consistently had to use, spell casting and great invocations
I'll be frank though and say that yeah, I don't have any reason to think you know about building paladins if you think that highly of them. In AL, a hexadin just isn't that great s build because belts are just easily available. even so, I'm willing to bet that other guy flubbed his build if it sucked that much by comparison.
Ok bud heres the thing like I've been saying since my first post which was not a reply to you. Multiclass builds do not come on line until the teens in levels because they fall behind. Further in comparison a hexadin is a glass cannon. Cool you can role that many dice. I really dont care as you seem to not grasp what I have literally said three times now.
I play two multiclass Paladins one with a War Cleric and one with a Zealot Barbarian who gives very little shits how much dice you can role as he deals pretty much 100 points of damage before dice are rolled.
And again neither of these builds nor your builds actually start dealing huge amounts of damage like you are saying until the teens. Further because you decide to take a single level in a class before going to another you already short change yourself at early levels. It doesnt matter that you wanted different save proficiency or not you are behind the power curve automatically. The fact you dont understand this or that this has been what I have been saying is very sad and shows how little you actually know about the advantages and disadvantages to multiclassing.
Further what a Paladin has begins to taper off at level 6? You really dont understand the class then if this is what your saying.
Let's look at Devotion. As it's my main and you've obviously played it.
Level 7 free immunity to charm for you and your party with in 10 feat of you. 30ft at level 17. Tell me can a single class come close to doing this no and it is absolutely clutch as charm can destroy parties.
Level 10 all Paladins are immune to fear as well as their party with in range. Again absolutely clutch when fighting things that have frightful presence can cause fear etc.
Level 11 Improved divine smite extra damage on every attack.
Level 14 yes this feature isnt amazing but is still great when situations pop up
Level 15 By far one of the best abilities. Automatically puts half of the creature types in D&D at disadvantage when attacking you.
But yeah according to you it drops off after lvl 6. You and your cookie cutter builds. Because that's what they are cookie cutter. I mean hell out side of your Hexadin I bet you barely put anything into charisma at all either. I dont know how to build a Paladin. Please dude I'm not the one making cookie cutter classes here.
You seem to think that this is a conversation on comparing Palafins to non Paladins as this is the third time you bring that up. It isnt. Its comparing Paladins to Paladins. You dont seem to grasp what a Paladin is capable of doing or how to effectively use them if you think they drop off after level 6. Paladins are the most powerful single class in the game. Unless you can tell me another class that can have a minimum of +4 saving throws to dump stats, 3 saving throws over +10, that can heal up too 100 hp with out a spell or potion, the potential to deal up to 400 damage in a turn, and can easily have an AC over 30 with out multiclassing.
I other words the highest AC, do the most healing in a turn, the highest saving throws, deal the most damage, etc.
Yeah Paladins drop off though. You really just should you have no clue what you are talking about.
Here's the thing, most of what a paladin has to offer tapers off after lvl 6, maybe 7 in some cases. Fear immunity? A bit if extra passive damage? I'm not convinced those features are on equal footing with having a paladin that has better progression with a full caster MC.
I've played a full paladin, purebred. Weakest one of the bunch. But he's a paladin so still effective. Lvl 16 Oath of glory, relies on haste and mounted combatant. Zariel teifling so he can double smite a couple times per day. An absolute mobile machine, fun, but he's not pulling the same numbers as the other guys. He also has expertise in athletics, and boots of striding and springing so he can grapple and jump several dozen feet into the air with his victims.
I've got my fighter paladin. 3 into battle master, 15 into devotion paladin. He started with one level of fighter for con save proficiency. I play that one as a GWM build as the idea is to have great sustainable damage with as little spell slot use as possible. Turn on a persistent buff during combat like crusader's mantle, spirit shroud, w/e, and rely more on maneuvers and channel divinity.
My hexadin is fun. 11 paladin, 9 hexblade. ofc, he's a half elf, with elven accuracy and oath of vengeance. Boat loads of fun to be able to crit easily and dump a double smite for 22d8s , and regain it all on a short rest. He started one paladin, then switched until 5 warlock, then back to paladin until 11. Also a GWM build. Sure, he didn't get his aura until the start of t3, but he did fine without it just like most non paladins do. Honestly, the sheer versatility is just amazing. Great ranged options that I've consistently had to use, spell casting and great invocations
I'll be frank though and say that yeah, I don't have any reason to think you know about building paladins if you think that highly of them. In AL, a hexadin just isn't that great s build because belts are just easily available. even so, I'm willing to bet that other guy flubbed his build if it sucked that much by comparison.
Scoradins/warladins are a lot of fun and are very hard to kill with all the options they get!
They are really not that hard to kill. I've played with several in a group and they go unconscious very quickly in comparison. You have abilities to increase your ability to escape a confrontation. Not to survive it
Funny, the one paladin who mostly fit that description of having incredible saves and insane high AC is a triton ancients paladin. Except, he was only 7 levels there and 13 into wild magic sorcerer. I can ensure you, this guy out damaged and out survived regular paladins on the reg.
I don't know how calling my builds"cookie cutter" is a valid criticism. Fighter paladin mc sure ain't common round these parts. Even if it were, so what? this is about how MCing is a great decision on paladin. Not if a build gets special snowflake points (which straight paladin sure as heck ain't). Still, I am curious how you manage to get "100 damage before dice." A purebred zealot can only do about 88 (12 rage, 30 GWM+pam, 27 from STR if belt, 9 if +3 weapon, 10 divine fury) DPR without dice, and any less levels in zealot means less dice dependent damage. How you do that on a paladin MC is puzzling.
Why would you make the silly, faulty assumption that my paladins have low CHA when I'm openly playing AL, where belts are easily obtained? I only need to increase CHA. Bro, my fighter paladin has a +6 aura and uses a storm giant belt.
Some paladins have great lvl 15 abilities. Some don't. Some have great capstone's while others have crap.
They are really not that hard to kill. I've played with several in a group and they go unconscious very quickly in comparison. You have abilities to increase your ability to escape a confrontation. Not to survive it
Funny, the one paladin who mostly fit that description of having incredible saves and insane high AC is a triton ancients paladin. Except, he was only 7 levels there and 13 into wild magic sorcerer. I can ensure you, this guy out damaged and out survived regular paladins on the reg.
I don't know how calling my builds"cookie cutter" is a valid criticism. Fighter paladin mc sure ain't common round these parts. Even if it were, so what? this is about how MCing is a great decision on paladin. Not if a build gets special snowflake points (which straight paladin sure as heck ain't). Still, I am curious how you manage to get "100 damage before dice." A purebred zealot can only do about 88 (12 rage, 30 GWM+pam, 27 from STR if belt, 9 if +3 weapon, 10 divine fury) DPR without dice, and any less levels in zealot means less dice dependent damage. How you do that on a paladin MC is puzzling.
Why would you make the silly, faulty assumption that my paladins have low CHA when I'm openly playing AL, where belts are easily obtained? I only need to increase CHA. Bro, my fighter paladin has a +6 aura and uses a storm giant belt.
Some paladins have great lvl 15 abilities. Some don't. Some have great capstone's while others have crap.
Ok bud this right here really shows me you have no clue how to build characters at all.
First off you will never out survive a full Paladin on the front lines in any fullcaster multiclass you want to do. You dont have the HP, nor the Lay on hands, nor any other ability past Paladin lvl 7. You got spell slots cool beans bud. I can literally get 6th level spell slots with a 2 lvl dip in Cleric and have all the benefits plus 3 attacks a turn more than once a day depending on the wisdom modifier and with holy avenger and his race does the exact same thing as a devotion paladins capstone ability all be it at a shorter distance. So my multiclass can do everything a full fledge devotion paladin can do with a 6th level spell slot and ranged attacks in versatility, However a full Devotion Paladin with the same race and items does more damage and has more health and another ASI to use.
No your builds are cookie cutter builds and it is absolutely fair to state because as much as you want to talk shit on Aura of Protection, and the level 7 Paladin Abilities you sure use them alot because thats what the internet says is powerful. Further you think dealing 22d8 damage is alot a turn. Dude I play a Hexblade. A full Hexblade Warlock and she can roll at max rolls can roll 12d8+8d12 a turn and those 8d12s come from 2 additional attacks on a bonus action that on crits, where crits are 18-20, can be up to 24d12s with both hits. If I was to make her a hexadin she'd be doing 22d8+8d12s a turn. Your not even maximizing damage potential because you are so focused on what the internet says is powerful you dont actually pay attention that unless you are going for thematics in builds anything more than 4 levels in a multiclass is not worth it at all and is actually a hamper to a character build.
You show you clear lack of understanding of building characters when you wonder how a Zealot Barbarian/ Devotion paladin multiclass can do 100 damage before dice rolls. You wonder this because you dont know how to build something to its max effectiveness. Because while the you are right on what the max bonuses a Zealot Barbarian can do with GWM you dont take into account other character creation things that can be done to deal more damage. 88 damage is not the Maximum a Zealot Barbarian can do when built to maximize damage. The max damage a Zealot Barbarian can do before dice rolls built right is 118 damage. Which is still higher than what My Zealot Barbarian Paladin can do.
Woopty Dooo you have magic items on your Fighter/ Paladin. Your still no where near as powerful as a full Paladin. You gain versatility that is all. But hey you want to talk about your +6 to CHA do to a magic item. Bud any Paladin could have that, I could also literally make a Paladin with 39AC also with Magic items with out multiclassing your point because of items. I'm not the one that's sitting here arguing that multiclass characters are stronger than full classes. I have routinely made the arguement they are more versatile. Versatility does not make something stronger though its a false equivalency. You give up power in the frontline and in class specialization for versatility. You ever hear of the Jack of all trades master of none. That's what you get
They are really not that hard to kill. I've played with several in a group and they go unconscious very quickly in comparison. You have abilities to increase your ability to escape a confrontation. Not to survive it
Lowest Save: +4 (INT); Favored by the Gods gives you a 2d4 if you do manage to miss.
AC: 20
Getting attacked? Shield Reaction makes AC 25
Getting spelled on? Counterspell....even if it hits you get Resistance to all damage from spells.
Getting Dragon Breathed? Absorb Elements
Overall you have so much to deal with every possible form of damage...its crazy.
Ok first your Character is a rolled Character not point buy so has no basis of being involved in this discussion at all unless you want me to bring out my 2 Character that I rolled with Strait 18s and say your still wrong but I will enlighten you to how wrong you are on this non the less based off your stats. For the sake and to prove a point I will use my AL lvl 13 paladin, that is Point buy. So my character is already at a disadvantage going into this.
Going off pure stats and ill record each of them so people can easily see here:
Aubrey Khaldo Draigo
AC 22 AC 26 (28 shield of Faith)
HP 109 HP 147
Movement
30 walking 30 walking 90 flying
Vision
Darkvision 60ft Truesight 60ft
saves in order of str, dex, con, int, wis, cha
9, 6, 8, 5, 12,16 9, 6, 15, 6, 14, 17
Resistances
Damage from Spells Fire, Necrotic, Radiant, Damage from Spells
Immunity
Disease Disease, Frightened, Charmed
Advantages
Saving throws against charm Wisdom (insight Checks)
Disadvantages
Stealth Stealth
Attack
+10 +7 (+12 Sacred Weapon)
Attack Damage
Longsword, Divine Smite, Hexblades curse Sword of Zariel, Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, Scourge Aasimar(1 per turn)
1d8+6d8+11 3d8+6d8+1d8+15+(6 to all creatures in 10ft)
Lay on Hands
35 65 +(13 Healing Hands)
I mean seriously bud if you want to pull out characters and try to say how powerful they are because of this and that I just had an Adventure League character 2 lvls lower than you make you look weak and I dont even have +1 plate. My level 13 Character hits harder, has more health, better saves, higher AC and a far better ability to heal himself or the party. You have versatility some situations thats it you do not have the same surviability as a full fledge Paladin.
It's point buy not rolled.... So yeah.
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I've been messing around with and idea for a character that hunts down undead. Paladin seems to be the best choice for the stronger undead, but I also thought about multi-classing into ranger for the Monster Slayer perks. I'm currently thinking about Oath of Devotion 17/ Monster Slayer 3. Any thoughts?
There's nothing inherently wrong with a multiclass that is just 3 levels of another class. At the end of the day, this is going to be mostly a paladin, and there's nothing wrong with that... HOWEVER--
Monster Slayer's benefits, on their own, are kinda lackluster at lvl 3. Slasher's Prey is like a poor man's Hunter's Mark, but it is free, so there's that... Hunter's sense is kinda like metagaming, but that's something you don't necessarily need if you've played against enough undead to know what works on them and what doesn't
My biggest issue is that Paladin is already a MAD enough class. Adding in Ranger to the mix means you have to meet those prerequisite stats of having 13 wis and 13 dex, AND the 13 str and 13 cha from paladin. If you were to use a point buy system, meeting all those requirements means you'd only then have enough to set your CON to 14, and that's it. You would almost be forced to play as a regular human that gets a +1 to all their stats, so that way you'll have a +2 mod in all your important stats.
I personally don't like playing with anything less than +3 mod in my main stats to start with. But hey, if you don't mind starting with a +2, go for it.
I would suggest Battlemaster Fighter or Rune Knight instead of Monster Slayer. The maneuvers/runes are going to be more generally helpful to the paladin side of things without the MAD previously mentioned.
For Battlemaster in this build I like:
Menancing Attack, Precision Attack, Trip Attack, Tactical Assessment, Ambush
For Rune Knight I like:
Stone and Cloud Rune
You lose out on the devotion level 20 power: advantage against spells cast by undead (and fiends) and an aura of passive radiant damage. If you’re an undead hunter, those are tough to beat compared to a level 3 power from any other class.
You also give up having your auras grow to 30 feet, a level 19 asi, and a fifth level spell slot.
I’d say there’s no 3-level dip worth that.
This is fair as well...I think that a dip is more worth it if you do not think you will make it all the way to 20...but if you are then yeah full Paladin is the way to go.
OR if you are planning on going to 20...look into Scoradins (Sorcerer/Paladin). They take a long time to come online but they are quite possibly the hardest PC to kill at later levels
Nonsense! A lvl 3 dip is so worth it. Let's keep something in mind, the features you can have from multi passing can very well outweigh the benefits of an extra ASI, especially if you're capped on your main stat.
Also, at lvl 20 resources are abundant and a non factor; you should be able to buy or create as many 5th lvl spell scrolls as you like, so having one less slot is hardly a negative.
And another thing, devotion's capstone ain't no conquest nor ancients capstone. Let's not kid ourselves here, you'll have just as much mileage with a holy avenger, and you don't need full 20 lvls for that.
By the time you would get a 30 ft aura at lvl 18, most everyone is gonna be OP anyways. If 10 ft served you just fine for the last 18 lvls, it'll serve you fine for the next two.
Fact of the matter is an entire career with some fun MC lvls outweighs most of what you get from any capstone unless it's AL where lvl 20 is an inevitability.
The spell slot is for smiting. No scroll can do that. Though I actually may have been wrong about that for a different reason, with two half casters, I think you do keep the spell slot. So I’ll take that argument off the board, thanks for making me think about it.
There is no guarantee you will have any of these abundant magic items, in particular a legendary item like a holy avenger. Maybe your dm gives it to you, maybe they don’t. It’s campaign-dependent; powers listed in the book are guaranteed.
A 30-foot aura is simply better than 10. It’s math. 10 works, but given the choice, 30 is better. And depending on party composition, you may not even have been getting much use from the 10.
A level 3 power might be nice, but with pallys being MAD as they are, an ability score boost will likely help you (and your party if you put it in cha) more reliably. Compared to hunter’s sense, which is basically useless. And slayer’s prey, which gives you an extra d6 once a round which isn’t nothing, but at level 20, 3.5 points of damage is pretty close to nothing.
You give up three high level features to get one low level feature. Not worth the trade.
This is assuming you are going to level 20 though too....the original post does say they plan on going to 20 but in reality that does not happen.
In reality about 90% of campaigns end by 10th level.
It is fair to potentially ask if level 20 is a given or if they are hoping for that outcome. Also in my limited experience with high level play you rarely get a lot of time between level 17 and 20 before the campaign ends.
High level DnD is not really tenable unforunately...it just is not good for long term periods of play.
Oh, don't misunderstand me, I'm not arguing in favor for monster slayer, but lvl 3 dips in general. 3 lvls of hexblade, worth it. 3 lvls of sorcerer, worth. Bard, worth. ANY fighter, definitely WURF.
Also, you can use banishing smite with a scroll.
Hold on a second here are we arguing a Character build or are we arguing what most campaigns normally end at. The point at which campaigns generally end has no basis on a discussion about the effectiveness of a build because it's not worth it. When are you going to take your 3 level multiclass? Before level 4 absolutely not because then you miss an early ASI increase or feat. At Level 5? No because you you put off getting a second attack till level 8. At 6th level? No because you put off Aura of Protection. Level 7? No because you put off another Spell slot and immunity to being charmed for yourself and allies. Level 8? No because it's another ASI. Level 3 spell slots are next turn and at this point we loose any viability of multiclassing before 10 levels. In fact most people that multiclass do so in the teens as far as leveling goes. Not in the single digits. The only time when multiclassing is generally done before this is because the player has no care about the difficulty it will bring in those early levels.
I know this because both my main Paladins are multiclass characters. One doesnt multiclass until between lvl 13-15 and the other multi classes at level 5. He isnt as hard to play only because the insane amount of damage he puts on on a single attack and his story revolves around a quest for 3 very specific magical times that are need to work togther that make him that powerful.
I agree with Xalthu on this though it's generally not worth multiclassing Paladins because of how good they are. That being said though they are very powerful when done and when done correctly. Multiclassing does not make you an instant super powerful character like some new players believe. You are generally weaker for a portion of time.
That being said a Ranger is entirely to MAD to multiclass it. I push it with multiclassing with a war cleric but that's a whole other level and not worth the cost. The only way this could remotely work with out giving up to many abilities is by rolling the dice and being a scourge aasimar.
I think auras are overrated. Powerful, and the point of paladins to begin with of course, but they're not this one feature that makes the whole class unplayable if you delay it. Personally speaking, I've played a number of paladin multiclasses, and they've done it at first level, and another branched off at lvl 2. Fact of the matter is your saves are just like everyone else's-- adequate as the game intended, and there's nothing wrong with being at that level for a little while longer until you get the rest of your features.
The only multiclass that sucked for a bit was my fighter paladin, but only at lvl 5 cause it was t2 and I was still stuck at attacking once per turn. Other than that, what a great, effective character that one turned out to be. You have an easier time with caster multiclasses because you can have cantrips that scale with your level without sacrificing much of anything. My hexadin, he's started out with 1 paladin before branching into warlock. Totally fine because EB and GFB took good care of him when he was stuck at one attack while everyone else attacked twice.
Its really not the end of the world to multiclass during t1 or t2. Sure, you're not insta-OP either, but you also don't ruin a character either. The game is beautiful in it's balance in that if you multiclass or not, you have a strong character. But you get perks and benefits as well as draw backs for any decisions, including the decision to not multiclass.
Also, only devotion gets charm immunity, so it's not on every paladin.
The fact that you think the Aura is overrated has me questioning how much your multiclass are Paladin vs another class with a dip in Paladin and how you actually play a Paladin. Having your saving throws increase is the bane of DMs. Especially that you can increase your parties saves as well. It's not an overrated ability. Having the ability to put three saves in the teens makes it a virtual auto save. Further you arent just putting off your increase of saves. You are putting off every ability and spell slot the Paladin has after for 3 lvls which can take a while.
Now I'm really questioning your decision making on multiclassing when you say it only delays you by a single level. Taking one level in Paladin and the rest in something like fighter is just plain stupid. You dont gain much from it besides 5 points of lay on hands and different saves and instead delay every single fighter ability which far outstrips anything you get from 1 lvl of Paladin.
I further question your understanding of multiclass characters as you think they seem to be equal in power compared to a full class. This is absolutely not the case until the mid teens of levels and even then it's an iffy arguement depending on how you built your race, amount of levels, etc.
No shit bud do you think I'm someone that does not build Paladins? The OPs question was solely about a Devotion Paladin multiclass.
As an additional point I've played AL with a player that made a hexadin while I was a full Paladin. The joke at the table was we had a Paladin and someone who thought he was.
Here's the thing, most of what a paladin has to offer tapers off after lvl 6, maybe 7 in some cases. Fear immunity? A bit if extra passive damage? I'm not convinced those features are on equal footing with having a paladin that has better progression with a full caster MC.
I've played a full paladin, purebred. Weakest one of the bunch. But he's a paladin so still effective. Lvl 16 Oath of glory, relies on haste and mounted combatant. Zariel teifling so he can double smite a couple times per day. An absolute mobile machine, fun, but he's not pulling the same numbers as the other guys. He also has expertise in athletics, and boots of striding and springing so he can grapple and jump several dozen feet into the air with his victims.
I've got my fighter paladin. 3 into battle master, 15 into devotion paladin. He started with one level of fighter for con save proficiency. I play that one as a GWM build as the idea is to have great sustainable damage with as little spell slot use as possible. Turn on a persistent buff during combat like crusader's mantle, spirit shroud, w/e, and rely more on maneuvers and channel divinity.
My hexadin is fun. 11 paladin, 9 hexblade. ofc, he's a half elf, with elven accuracy and oath of vengeance. Boat loads of fun to be able to crit easily and dump a double smite for 22d8s , and regain it all on a short rest. He started one paladin, then switched until 5 warlock, then back to paladin until 11. Also a GWM build. Sure, he didn't get his aura until the start of t3, but he did fine without it just like most non paladins do. Honestly, the sheer versatility is just amazing. Great ranged options that I've consistently had to use, spell casting and great invocations
I'll be frank though and say that yeah, I don't have any reason to think you know about building paladins if you think that highly of them. In AL, a hexadin just isn't that great s build because belts are just easily available. even so, I'm willing to bet that other guy flubbed his build if it sucked that much by comparison.
Ok bud heres the thing like I've been saying since my first post which was not a reply to you. Multiclass builds do not come on line until the teens in levels because they fall behind. Further in comparison a hexadin is a glass cannon. Cool you can role that many dice. I really dont care as you seem to not grasp what I have literally said three times now.
I play two multiclass Paladins one with a War Cleric and one with a Zealot Barbarian who gives very little shits how much dice you can role as he deals pretty much 100 points of damage before dice are rolled.
And again neither of these builds nor your builds actually start dealing huge amounts of damage like you are saying until the teens. Further because you decide to take a single level in a class before going to another you already short change yourself at early levels. It doesnt matter that you wanted different save proficiency or not you are behind the power curve automatically. The fact you dont understand this or that this has been what I have been saying is very sad and shows how little you actually know about the advantages and disadvantages to multiclassing.
Further what a Paladin has begins to taper off at level 6? You really dont understand the class then if this is what your saying.
Let's look at Devotion. As it's my main and you've obviously played it.
Level 7 free immunity to charm for you and your party with in 10 feat of you. 30ft at level 17. Tell me can a single class come close to doing this no and it is absolutely clutch as charm can destroy parties.
Level 10 all Paladins are immune to fear as well as their party with in range. Again absolutely clutch when fighting things that have frightful presence can cause fear etc.
Level 11 Improved divine smite extra damage on every attack.
Level 14 yes this feature isnt amazing but is still great when situations pop up
Level 15 By far one of the best abilities. Automatically puts half of the creature types in D&D at disadvantage when attacking you.
But yeah according to you it drops off after lvl 6. You and your cookie cutter builds. Because that's what they are cookie cutter. I mean hell out side of your Hexadin I bet you barely put anything into charisma at all either. I dont know how to build a Paladin. Please dude I'm not the one making cookie cutter classes here.
You seem to think that this is a conversation on comparing Palafins to non Paladins as this is the third time you bring that up. It isnt. Its comparing Paladins to Paladins. You dont seem to grasp what a Paladin is capable of doing or how to effectively use them if you think they drop off after level 6. Paladins are the most powerful single class in the game. Unless you can tell me another class that can have a minimum of +4 saving throws to dump stats, 3 saving throws over +10, that can heal up too 100 hp with out a spell or potion, the potential to deal up to 400 damage in a turn, and can easily have an AC over 30 with out multiclassing.
I other words the highest AC, do the most healing in a turn, the highest saving throws, deal the most damage, etc.
Yeah Paladins drop off though. You really just should you have no clue what you are talking about.
Scoradins/warladins are a lot of fun and are very hard to kill with all the options they get!
They are really not that hard to kill. I've played with several in a group and they go unconscious very quickly in comparison. You have abilities to increase your ability to escape a confrontation. Not to survive it
Funny, the one paladin who mostly fit that description of having incredible saves and insane high AC is a triton ancients paladin. Except, he was only 7 levels there and 13 into wild magic sorcerer. I can ensure you, this guy out damaged and out survived regular paladins on the reg.
I don't know how calling my builds"cookie cutter" is a valid criticism. Fighter paladin mc sure ain't common round these parts. Even if it were, so what? this is about how MCing is a great decision on paladin. Not if a build gets special snowflake points (which straight paladin sure as heck ain't). Still, I am curious how you manage to get "100 damage before dice." A purebred zealot can only do about 88 (12 rage, 30 GWM+pam, 27 from STR if belt, 9 if +3 weapon, 10 divine fury) DPR without dice, and any less levels in zealot means less dice dependent damage. How you do that on a paladin MC is puzzling.
Why would you make the silly, faulty assumption that my paladins have low CHA when I'm openly playing AL, where belts are easily obtained? I only need to increase CHA. Bro, my fighter paladin has a +6 aura and uses a storm giant belt.
Some paladins have great lvl 15 abilities. Some don't. Some have great capstone's while others have crap.
Strongly disagree for Scoradin at least....
See Aubry: https://ddb.ac/characters/28913993/RHurNT
Lowest Save: +4 (INT); Favored by the Gods gives you a 2d4 if you do manage to miss.
AC: 20
Getting attacked? Shield Reaction makes AC 25
Getting spelled on? Counterspell....even if it hits you get Resistance to all damage from spells.
Getting Dragon Breathed? Absorb Elements
Overall you have so much to deal with every possible form of damage...its crazy.
It's point buy not rolled.... So yeah.