Hi there! I'm brand new player; my only experience thus far is playing a 'one shot' that is taking more than one session since the party is all new players and we're learning and enjoying and having a blast. That is probably going to wrap up within the next couple sessions.
After that the plan is to roll some new characters and run Curse of Strahd. I don't know what the rest of the party composition will be yet, but I'm pretty set on playing an Oath of Devotion paladin. I know the module goes to level 10 so I have some questions and am asking for advice as to best build the character. I am assuming I will be doing point buy.
I have few points of internal debate:
1. Variant Human or Protector Aasimar as my race which colors some of my consideration for my second point.
2. How to best spend ASIs/grab feats (considering PAM and/or GWM).
V. Human gets a free feat at level one so if I was going to use a spear or glaive I would pick up PAM. That seems super strong to have as a paladin early on since there will be more chances to smite. How noticeable is it to forgo PAM at level one (i.e. I went Aasimar instead)? If you've played paladins with and without PAM starting out how much does the effectiveness of the character in combat change in the early levels, and how much time is actually spent relative to the total campaign at levels 1-4?
I generally like the aesthetic of using a two handed weapon as a paladin a little bit more than a spear/shield. Do you find paladins using two handed weapons noticeable squishier, and do you think the benefit of the increased damage is worth the tradeoff? Along those lines; if I were to go a two handed weapon over a spear/shield, do you think the damage is only noticeably better with a feat like GWM? How much of a difference is there in using a greatsword with GWM vs. a glaive with PAM + GWM?
Finally that leads into ASI. I'll have a 16 in Str and Cha when I'm done with character creation; if I go Aasimar that means one or both ASI would potentially be spent on feats if I went the two handed route. As V. Human it would be one or none (also assuming two handed weapon in that scenario). How important is it to have above a 16 in Str and Cha at level 10 (when the campaign ends)?
In terms of roleplay and flavor I think the Aasimar transformation sounds awesome and has a slight edge over V. Human in coolness factor for me; however, it's not so important that I wouldn't enjoy playing a V. Human. I think I would prefer a two handed weapon over a spear/shield, but if spear/shield is just much better I would be willing to consider it. Any advice and feedback on all of the above points and questions; particularly if you've had the chance to play paladins that were different from each other in the feats/ASI/race, etc. that I mentioned would be amazing. Thank you all; much appreciated!
V. Human gets a free feat at level one so if I was going to use a spear or glaive I would pick up PAM. That seems super strong to have as a paladin early on since there will be more chances to smite. How noticeable is it to forgo PAM at level one (i.e. I went Aasimar instead)? If you've played paladins with and without PAM starting out how much does the effectiveness of the character in combat change in the early levels, and how much time is actually spent relative to the total campaign at levels 1-4?
I haven't played a paladin with PAM (yet), but I'm currently playing a Ranger who started with that feat using our group's typical 3rd-level start with a free feat and I have to say it's very strong; being able to bonus action attack as standard means you've got two attacks you can always do before you even hit 5th-level, and even if you only trigger the special opportunity attack once in a fight that's still potentially a third attack in the round.
On a paladin that's going to be huge, as it means three full chances to trigger divine smite, or fish for a critical hit (to maximise your value, since divine smite doubles as well).
I will say though, it can be strong enough to the point that you may be encouraging your DM to up the encounter difficulty to compensate, so it being the "stronger" option may not actually matter; if you take the feat a little later on another character this is less of an issue as encounters will already be getting harder, and once you have Extra Attack you're "only" doubling your attacks rather than tripling them.
I generally like the aesthetic of using a two handed weapon as a paladin a little bit more than a spear/shield. Do you find paladins using two handed weapons noticeable squishier, and do you think the benefit of the increased damage is worth the tradeoff? Along those lines; if I were to go a two handed weapon over a spear/shield, do you think the damage is only noticeably better with a feat like GWM? How much of a difference is there in using a greatsword with GWM vs. a glaive with PAM + GWM?
I dunno if I'd call them "squishier", if you're trading duelling for defence as the fighting style then you're only losing one point of AC unless you factor in magic shields, but even in that case you've still got magic armour to boost your AC to more than competitive levels. As with most things it's a trade off; you might take slightly more hits, but you'll also be dealing more damage and hopefully ending a fight sooner, so the difference in damage taken ought to even out to some degree.
You've also still got a great big pool of built-in healing as well; it's not selfish to heal yourself if you're the one taking the damage.
To maximise the damage of Great Weapon Master you really want a reliable source of advantage to counteract the -5 to hit; this is why it's the feat of choice of barbarians who have built-in advantage thanks to Reckless Attack, but for a paladin you're looking for other options. Vengeance paladins are the only ones with a built-in option thanks to their Vow of Enmity, though Devotion's Sacred Weapon will certainly help as your Charisma increases, but ideally you may want a spell option or an ally who can give you advantage somehow anyway. The more of a hit penalty you're left with, the less effective that +10 damage will be overall (as you'll be missing too much to benefit, which also impacts your divine smites).
In terms of roleplay and flavor I think the Aasimar transformation sounds awesome and has a slight edge over V. Human in coolness factor for me; however, it's not so important that I wouldn't enjoy playing a V. Human. I think I would prefer a two handed weapon over a spear/shield, but if spear/shield is just much better I would be willing to consider it. Any advice and feedback on all of the above points and questions; particularly if you've had the chance to play paladins that were different from each other in the feats/ASI/race, etc. that I mentioned would be amazing. Thank you all; much appreciated!
For me personally, "coolness factor" or characterful considerations usually win out over mechanics (but that doesn't mean you can't optimise too), after all, it's the cool character you've come up with that makes it fun to play, rather than simply a stack of numbers; squeezing out an extra few points of damage here and there won't make the game more fun if you end up with a character that you aren't as attached to. At least that's my feeling on the matter.
So I usually say "build what you like, and see how that turns out", as this way you can find out if you end up something you're happy with, and can tweak the result. The other thing to consider might be what role do you want them to have in the party? Paladins are usually front line damage dealers, but you can emphasise that damage, or you can emphasise defence and party support (e.g- shield, shield master and protection fighting style). If you've got spare character slots on D&D Beyond (or a subscription) then the ability to copy characters is a great way to try out multiple ideas and compare them.
In general paladin is a very strong class; it's pretty hard to build a bad one no matter what you pick (with the possible exception of an underpants-only unarmed brawler). Sword and board (shield) is your classic armoured fortress, and can still deal heavy damage thanks to divine smite, but a two-handing paladin isn't exactly vulnerable will can deal more damage without spending resources plus the two handing feats (GWM/PAM) are very good. Personally I prefer polearms (glaive, halberd or pike) to a battleaxe or greatsword as the damage is only a tiny bit lower for that added reach.
Sorry that this is mostly a wall of thoughts, rather than answers; it's hard to tell someone what the "best" choice is for their character, I prefer to just say what my own experiences have been and cover some of the options and how you might pick between them, and I always go overboard. 😂
Thanks so much for your feedback! Not a wall of thoughts at all - you definitely gave some insight on how significant some of the differences I asked about might be in actual play.
After reading your response, I'm leaning towards an Aasimar and using a glaive. Since I won't have PAM at the start, I will definitely want to pick it up at level 4. I would get one more ASI at level 8; the module goes to 10. Do you think having a 16 Str and 16 Cha at levels 8-10 is mostly fine if I were to pick up GWM, or do you think it's better to bump one of them to 18?
The nice thing is I'll be able to feel it out a little as the campaign plays out, what buffs the other party members bring, etc. and I can see how I feel about getting GWM or an ASI at level 8. Part of the fun of being new to something is figuring out these kind of things :D
Yeah you'll definitely want to feel it out, but I've played a few campaigns to 10th-level without getting past +3's on ability scores and it's perfectly playable.
I'll say that for a paladin your Charisma isn't a critical score, so I wouldn't worry too much about getting them both high unless you find yourself favouring abilities that use your save DC a lot; Turn the Unholy for example is great against undead hordes, but they don't usually have great saving throws anyway, meanwhile elites will probably save regardless or use a legendary resistance to ignore it, so it's okay to let it lag behind.
In terms of the spells you can take paladins have a lot of options that don't really require high Charisma, including the option of just using the slots for divine smite 99% of the time, so it's possible to build a paladin who doesn't need much charisma at all. Not that I'm recommending that, as I think it's good to have the flexibility (plus you might want a Charisma skill or two for out of combat), but you could probably get by with a +2 if you feel you might need to bump Strength to +4 instead.
It'll depend a lot on how your DM runs it as well, as some DMs hate running hordes and favour more elite encounters, others are the opposite, or will be more balanced etc. so you'll get a feel for whether you need to be more balanced/versatile or more focused. They might also give you magic items that will remove the need for certain choices, e.g- an amulet of the devout could boost your casting modifier and save DC without needing higher Charisma, a magic weapon might boost your attack rolls etc.
I've actually been doing a load of item planning for an upcoming campaign of mine, so that's something that might be worth discussing with your DM; don't ask for specific items, but if you can give them an idea of what gear your character might favour that can help. There are cool character details you can potentially build around gear, for example, your paladin might have a sword they've always used and wouldn't replace, but that just gives your DM an opening for a weapon to be blessed/enchanted somehow instead, or even to turn out it wasn't just an old sword your mentor used but actually some special weapon they inherited. Or you can seed the idea of a weapon breaking so it has to be replaced with the first thing you find and so-on.
I play a Zariel Aasimar Oath Paly with GWM and have a blast with it (currently 8th level). I also play a Protector Aasimar Warlock (also lvl 8 and perhaps my fave character) so I can mentally meld the two together to give you some feedback.
While you are indeed a bit squishier with GWM and no shield, you have a massive pool of healing you can put on yourself (as a BA too!) and you can fly once a day so getting hit in melee is not as significant as it would be for other melee fighters. All melee characters deal with the trade off of extra defense over more damage but with your ability to nova damage at will, it makes the trade off more balanced toward maximizing damage over defense. Plus, BA "Cleave" when you kill a mob or crit is a lot more fun with 2d6 or 1d12 damage than it is with 1d6. Plus plus, extra Radiant damage when you are flying (1 per turn)! Note the above is based on the legacy version of Protector. Plus plus plus, resistance to necrotic damage.
Lean into your strengths, especially for this campaign!
Currently playing a 4th level Tabaxi lore bard in CoS. Not really a spoiler to say that radiant damage is very helpful. I assume resistance to necrotic will be as well.
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Hi there! I'm brand new player; my only experience thus far is playing a 'one shot' that is taking more than one session since the party is all new players and we're learning and enjoying and having a blast. That is probably going to wrap up within the next couple sessions.
After that the plan is to roll some new characters and run Curse of Strahd. I don't know what the rest of the party composition will be yet, but I'm pretty set on playing an Oath of Devotion paladin. I know the module goes to level 10 so I have some questions and am asking for advice as to best build the character. I am assuming I will be doing point buy.
I have few points of internal debate:
1. Variant Human or Protector Aasimar as my race which colors some of my consideration for my second point.
2. How to best spend ASIs/grab feats (considering PAM and/or GWM).
3. Going spear/shield (dueling fighting style), glaive (defense f.s.) or greatsword (also defense f.s.).
V. Human gets a free feat at level one so if I was going to use a spear or glaive I would pick up PAM. That seems super strong to have as a paladin early on since there will be more chances to smite. How noticeable is it to forgo PAM at level one (i.e. I went Aasimar instead)? If you've played paladins with and without PAM starting out how much does the effectiveness of the character in combat change in the early levels, and how much time is actually spent relative to the total campaign at levels 1-4?
I generally like the aesthetic of using a two handed weapon as a paladin a little bit more than a spear/shield. Do you find paladins using two handed weapons noticeable squishier, and do you think the benefit of the increased damage is worth the tradeoff? Along those lines; if I were to go a two handed weapon over a spear/shield, do you think the damage is only noticeably better with a feat like GWM? How much of a difference is there in using a greatsword with GWM vs. a glaive with PAM + GWM?
Finally that leads into ASI. I'll have a 16 in Str and Cha when I'm done with character creation; if I go Aasimar that means one or both ASI would potentially be spent on feats if I went the two handed route. As V. Human it would be one or none (also assuming two handed weapon in that scenario). How important is it to have above a 16 in Str and Cha at level 10 (when the campaign ends)?
In terms of roleplay and flavor I think the Aasimar transformation sounds awesome and has a slight edge over V. Human in coolness factor for me; however, it's not so important that I wouldn't enjoy playing a V. Human. I think I would prefer a two handed weapon over a spear/shield, but if spear/shield is just much better I would be willing to consider it. Any advice and feedback on all of the above points and questions; particularly if you've had the chance to play paladins that were different from each other in the feats/ASI/race, etc. that I mentioned would be amazing. Thank you all; much appreciated!
I haven't played a paladin with PAM (yet), but I'm currently playing a Ranger who started with that feat using our group's typical 3rd-level start with a free feat and I have to say it's very strong; being able to bonus action attack as standard means you've got two attacks you can always do before you even hit 5th-level, and even if you only trigger the special opportunity attack once in a fight that's still potentially a third attack in the round.
On a paladin that's going to be huge, as it means three full chances to trigger divine smite, or fish for a critical hit (to maximise your value, since divine smite doubles as well).
I will say though, it can be strong enough to the point that you may be encouraging your DM to up the encounter difficulty to compensate, so it being the "stronger" option may not actually matter; if you take the feat a little later on another character this is less of an issue as encounters will already be getting harder, and once you have Extra Attack you're "only" doubling your attacks rather than tripling them.
I dunno if I'd call them "squishier", if you're trading duelling for defence as the fighting style then you're only losing one point of AC unless you factor in magic shields, but even in that case you've still got magic armour to boost your AC to more than competitive levels. As with most things it's a trade off; you might take slightly more hits, but you'll also be dealing more damage and hopefully ending a fight sooner, so the difference in damage taken ought to even out to some degree.
You've also still got a great big pool of built-in healing as well; it's not selfish to heal yourself if you're the one taking the damage.
To maximise the damage of Great Weapon Master you really want a reliable source of advantage to counteract the -5 to hit; this is why it's the feat of choice of barbarians who have built-in advantage thanks to Reckless Attack, but for a paladin you're looking for other options. Vengeance paladins are the only ones with a built-in option thanks to their Vow of Enmity, though Devotion's Sacred Weapon will certainly help as your Charisma increases, but ideally you may want a spell option or an ally who can give you advantage somehow anyway. The more of a hit penalty you're left with, the less effective that +10 damage will be overall (as you'll be missing too much to benefit, which also impacts your divine smites).
For me personally, "coolness factor" or characterful considerations usually win out over mechanics (but that doesn't mean you can't optimise too), after all, it's the cool character you've come up with that makes it fun to play, rather than simply a stack of numbers; squeezing out an extra few points of damage here and there won't make the game more fun if you end up with a character that you aren't as attached to. At least that's my feeling on the matter.
So I usually say "build what you like, and see how that turns out", as this way you can find out if you end up something you're happy with, and can tweak the result. The other thing to consider might be what role do you want them to have in the party? Paladins are usually front line damage dealers, but you can emphasise that damage, or you can emphasise defence and party support (e.g- shield, shield master and protection fighting style). If you've got spare character slots on D&D Beyond (or a subscription) then the ability to copy characters is a great way to try out multiple ideas and compare them.
In general paladin is a very strong class; it's pretty hard to build a bad one no matter what you pick (with the possible exception of an underpants-only unarmed brawler). Sword and board (shield) is your classic armoured fortress, and can still deal heavy damage thanks to divine smite, but a two-handing paladin isn't exactly vulnerable will can deal more damage without spending resources plus the two handing feats (GWM/PAM) are very good. Personally I prefer polearms (glaive, halberd or pike) to a battleaxe or greatsword as the damage is only a tiny bit lower for that added reach.
Sorry that this is mostly a wall of thoughts, rather than answers; it's hard to tell someone what the "best" choice is for their character, I prefer to just say what my own experiences have been and cover some of the options and how you might pick between them, and I always go overboard. 😂
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Thanks so much for your feedback! Not a wall of thoughts at all - you definitely gave some insight on how significant some of the differences I asked about might be in actual play.
After reading your response, I'm leaning towards an Aasimar and using a glaive. Since I won't have PAM at the start, I will definitely want to pick it up at level 4. I would get one more ASI at level 8; the module goes to 10. Do you think having a 16 Str and 16 Cha at levels 8-10 is mostly fine if I were to pick up GWM, or do you think it's better to bump one of them to 18?
The nice thing is I'll be able to feel it out a little as the campaign plays out, what buffs the other party members bring, etc. and I can see how I feel about getting GWM or an ASI at level 8. Part of the fun of being new to something is figuring out these kind of things :D
Yeah you'll definitely want to feel it out, but I've played a few campaigns to 10th-level without getting past +3's on ability scores and it's perfectly playable.
I'll say that for a paladin your Charisma isn't a critical score, so I wouldn't worry too much about getting them both high unless you find yourself favouring abilities that use your save DC a lot; Turn the Unholy for example is great against undead hordes, but they don't usually have great saving throws anyway, meanwhile elites will probably save regardless or use a legendary resistance to ignore it, so it's okay to let it lag behind.
In terms of the spells you can take paladins have a lot of options that don't really require high Charisma, including the option of just using the slots for divine smite 99% of the time, so it's possible to build a paladin who doesn't need much charisma at all. Not that I'm recommending that, as I think it's good to have the flexibility (plus you might want a Charisma skill or two for out of combat), but you could probably get by with a +2 if you feel you might need to bump Strength to +4 instead.
It'll depend a lot on how your DM runs it as well, as some DMs hate running hordes and favour more elite encounters, others are the opposite, or will be more balanced etc. so you'll get a feel for whether you need to be more balanced/versatile or more focused. They might also give you magic items that will remove the need for certain choices, e.g- an amulet of the devout could boost your casting modifier and save DC without needing higher Charisma, a magic weapon might boost your attack rolls etc.
I've actually been doing a load of item planning for an upcoming campaign of mine, so that's something that might be worth discussing with your DM; don't ask for specific items, but if you can give them an idea of what gear your character might favour that can help. There are cool character details you can potentially build around gear, for example, your paladin might have a sword they've always used and wouldn't replace, but that just gives your DM an opening for a weapon to be blessed/enchanted somehow instead, or even to turn out it wasn't just an old sword your mentor used but actually some special weapon they inherited. Or you can seed the idea of a weapon breaking so it has to be replaced with the first thing you find and so-on.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I play a Zariel Aasimar Oath Paly with GWM and have a blast with it (currently 8th level). I also play a Protector Aasimar Warlock (also lvl 8 and perhaps my fave character) so I can mentally meld the two together to give you some feedback.
While you are indeed a bit squishier with GWM and no shield, you have a massive pool of healing you can put on yourself (as a BA too!) and you can fly once a day so getting hit in melee is not as significant as it would be for other melee fighters. All melee characters deal with the trade off of extra defense over more damage but with your ability to nova damage at will, it makes the trade off more balanced toward maximizing damage over defense. Plus, BA "Cleave" when you kill a mob or crit is a lot more fun with 2d6 or 1d12 damage than it is with 1d6. Plus plus, extra Radiant damage when you are flying (1 per turn)! Note the above is based on the legacy version of Protector. Plus plus plus, resistance to necrotic damage.
Lean into your strengths, especially for this campaign!
Currently playing a 4th level Tabaxi lore bard in CoS. Not really a spoiler to say that radiant damage is very helpful. I assume resistance to necrotic will be as well.