Yes, perception .... because without it, you won't see the ambush coming for you. And due to be bound to Wisdom, I suggest characters at LVL 4 or more, should raise this ability or, at least get proficient in Perception ASAP.
I don't wanna see my party mates crying because they didn't put a single effort in noticing anything while they were marching on.
Nobody is expecting the Paladin to be the perception user, usually that'd be left to a skill monkey or WIS based class, Paladin already gets Wisdom save proficiency and Aura of Protection, so the reason a Paladin would go for Wisdom as their 4th stat is to basically make them better at WIS saves to the point where they can make WIS saves more often than not, not because of perception.
Generally speaking I'd always recommend one of the following:
Tank/DD Paladin: STR > CHA > CON > WIS > INT/DEX - probably the best builds and stereotypical build for Paladin
Support/healer Paladin: CHA > STR > CON > WIS > INT/DEX - more mixed but can work well with certain subclass choices.
Two-weapon fighting Paladin: DEX > CHA > CON > WIS > STR/INT - does not multiclass but can use bows well
As such with a standard array or point buy build, you'd rarely have more than a +1 Wisdom Modifier which really doesn't help that well with perception when others might get higher bonuses or get expertise. Instead Paladin is better focusing on social skills checks like persuasion, intimidation or performance or taking Athletics since Paladin is usually high Strength (Acrobatics if DEX based). Let's remember that sometimes the best way to win a combat is to avoid having one in the first place and Paladin is one of the best classes (after Bard, Sorcerer and Warlock) for using social checks to avoid battles which can instead be talked out.
Wisdom is the stat where I am most likely to play 'fun' over 'maths'.
Perception skill, whatever character I'm building, because I hate missing stuff. (Too many 'search everything everywhere' games.)
I hate getting mind-whammied, I feel better taking 'real' damage than having my character standing slack-jawed from some mentally incapacitating attack. Worse if it made you attack nearest person - your friends!
I'm no fan of being ambushed. New rules make this less of a bad thing than it used to be though. (And ambushing less of a benefit. And a high Dex/Initiative more important.) And I get it that the cinematic ambush is a staple. But only when I'm the ambusher.
I (probably) wouldn't put an ASI to Wis (especially not an early one) and I wouldn't push for more than 14. But for some reason getting Wis+2 just feels good for me. And if a +1 to wisdom isn't much bonus then a +1 to anything else isn't either. Right? :-)
Long-winded way of saying: play what feels fun to you.
PS, the other fun Paladin build is obviously CHA > CON > DEX/WIS > STR > INT using a 2 level warlock dip to get CHA as your attack stat. It makes a nice well-rounded paladin (or warlock playing as a paladin) with lots of 'blessed warrior' not 'angsty conflicted hero' paladin role-play potential. (Note that stat order has weird compromises depending on your play style, and will probably need an ASI for WIS to 'round it out'. But can do sword/board or greatwsword as you prefer.)
Wisdom is the stat where I am most likely to play 'fun' over 'maths'.
Perception skill, whatever character I'm building, because I hate missing stuff. (Too many 'search everything everywhere' games.)
I hate getting mind-whammied, I feel better taking 'real' damage than having my character standing slack-jawed from some mentally incapacitating attack. Worse if it made you attack nearest person - your friends!
I'm no fan of being ambushed. New rules make this less of a bad thing than it used to be though. (And ambushing less of a benefit. And a high Dex/Initiative more important.) And I get it that the cinematic ambush is a staple. But only when I'm the ambusher.
I (probably) wouldn't put an ASI to Wis (especially not an early one) and I wouldn't push for more than 14. But for some reason getting Wis+2 just feels good for me. And if a +1 to wisdom isn't much bonus then a +1 to anything else isn't either. Right? :-)
Long-winded way of saying: play what feels fun to you.
PS, the other fun Paladin build is obviously CHA > CON > DEX/WIS > STR > INT using a 2 level warlock dip to get CHA as your attack stat. It makes a nice well-rounded paladin (or warlock playing as a paladin) with lots of 'blessed warrior' not 'angsty conflicted hero' paladin role-play potential. (Note that stat order has weird compromises depending on your play style, and will probably need an ASI for WIS to 'round it out'. But can do sword/board or greatwsword as you prefer.)
Wisdom is the stat where I am most likely to play 'fun' over 'maths'.
Perception skill, whatever character I'm building, because I hate missing stuff. (Too many 'search everything everywhere' games.)
I hate getting mind-whammied, I feel better taking 'real' damage than having my character standing slack-jawed from some mentally incapacitating attack. Worse if it made you attack nearest person - your friends!
I'm no fan of being ambushed. New rules make this less of a bad thing than it used to be though. (And ambushing less of a benefit. And a high Dex/Initiative more important.) And I get it that the cinematic ambush is a staple. But only when I'm the ambusher.
I (probably) wouldn't put an ASI to Wis (especially not an early one) and I wouldn't push for more than 14. But for some reason getting Wis+2 just feels good for me. And if a +1 to wisdom isn't much bonus then a +1 to anything else isn't either. Right? :-)
Long-winded way of saying: play what feels fun to you.
PS, the other fun Paladin build is obviously CHA > CON > DEX/WIS > STR > INT using a 2 level warlock dip to get CHA as your attack stat. It makes a nice well-rounded paladin (or warlock playing as a paladin) with lots of 'blessed warrior' not 'angsty conflicted hero' paladin role-play potential. (Note that stat order has weird compromises depending on your play style, and will probably need an ASI for WIS to 'round it out'. But can do sword/board or greatwsword as you prefer.)
A CHA > CON > WIS > DEX > STR > INT would not make sense, you're basically leaving yourself with no decent attacks at all outside of spellcasting (why not just play a Cleric at that point?) and going with a woeful AC that even wizards would be left laughing at you over. Even if you're going for a support build, the ability to make attacks is important and AC can not be abandoned too that degree.
As far as Paladin goes, Aura of Protection will always mean CHA > WIS for saving throws, so unless you have maxed CHA then there is no point ever going for WIS and if you have maxed CHA then you still have enough things that are going to be more fun than investing in WIS, STR/DEX mostly, Since being able to make attacks and not being hit by every attack against you is going to be more fun in the long run over not just failing the few WIS saves you probably weren't failing anyways. Additionally if you are going full support then you'll be wanting to make concentration saving throws which will be more common anyway.
As for the fun angle, I played a Paladin in a game where dice were rolled, I got 17, 17, 11, 10, 10, 8. I went, 17, 10, 11, 8(+1), 10, 17(+2) with Tiefling Paladin. Using an ASI I Increased INT and CHA. I did not pick perception as a skill, so how did the game go? It was fun, a lot of fun. My paladin got a reputation for their terrible perception rolls; The rogue stole a gem next to the party, my paladin rolled low and saw nothing, the party broke into the local mayors house to get revenge while my paladin was bathing and my paladin saw nothing, one member of the party snuck an extra "mushroom" into the party stew and my paladin saw nothing. Most of the time, when you succeed, you succeed and it's on to the next thing but when you fail, those are the moments that can be the most fun, it can build character and then when you do succeed it becomes a rare moment and even more memorable. My paladin noticed the rogue trying to steal all the spices and herbs from a kitchen and so slapped her on the hand and quietly scolded her on the side, but normally the paladin wouldn't notice.
Ultimately no, I do not buy that making every perception check as every class is more fun, more so Paladin, in fact if you role-play paladin as paladin, it can infringe on everybody's fun since most paladin oaths are about upholding higher standards and may contain things like being against doing evil, stealing or telling lies. D&D is based around the idea that the party covers each other's weaknesses and so not every party member is meant to be good at everything. Additionally if you think you must succeed to have fun, you're actually damaging your own enjoyment and experience of the game, adapting to failing and working around it is often far more fun in the long run.
Finally, as I already mentioned, each character is meant to have things they are good at and things they are bad at, if you as a paladin are running perception then you're probably infringing on another player's fun by taking away from their checks, since other classes are meant to be running perception, like Rogue, Ranger, Cleric, Druid, Monk & Bard all can do. That is 6 classes that could be the "perception" classes and all certainly much better than Paladin for, in fact, Paladin is about the worst class for perception and the last class that should be taking it.
Sure, do what is fun but that isn't just about what is fun for you, it's about what is fun for everybody and yourself and I do believe paladins running perception is really not going to be pushing the fun as much as you think it does, paladin can do social checks well and works very well as a party face considering Paladin always wants Charisma in any build.
Wisdom is the stat where I am most likely to play 'fun' over 'maths'.
Perception skill, whatever character I'm building, because I hate missing stuff. (Too many 'search everything everywhere' games.)
I hate getting mind-whammied, I feel better taking 'real' damage than having my character standing slack-jawed from some mentally incapacitating attack. Worse if it made you attack nearest person - your friends!
I'm no fan of being ambushed. New rules make this less of a bad thing than it used to be though. (And ambushing less of a benefit. And a high Dex/Initiative more important.) And I get it that the cinematic ambush is a staple. But only when I'm the ambusher.
I (probably) wouldn't put an ASI to Wis (especially not an early one) and I wouldn't push for more than 14. But for some reason getting Wis+2 just feels good for me. And if a +1 to wisdom isn't much bonus then a +1 to anything else isn't either. Right? :-)
Long-winded way of saying: play what feels fun to you.
PS, the other fun Paladin build is obviously CHA > CON > DEX/WIS > STR > INT using a 2 level warlock dip to get CHA as your attack stat. It makes a nice well-rounded paladin (or warlock playing as a paladin) with lots of 'blessed warrior' not 'angsty conflicted hero' paladin role-play potential. (Note that stat order has weird compromises depending on your play style, and will probably need an ASI for WIS to 'round it out'. But can do sword/board or greatwsword as you prefer.)
A CHA > CON > WIS > DEX > STR > INT would not make sense, you're basically leaving yourself with no decent attacks at all outside of spellcasting (why not just play a Cleric at that point?) and going with a woeful AC that even wizards would be left laughing at you over. Even if you're going for a support build, the ability to make attacks is important and AC can not be abandoned too that degree.
As far as Paladin goes, Aura of Protection will always mean CHA > WIS for saving throws, so unless you have maxed CHA then there is no point ever going for WIS and if you have maxed CHA then you still have enough things that are going to be more fun than investing in WIS, STR/DEX mostly, Since being able to make attacks and not being hit by every attack against you is going to be more fun in the long run over not just failing the few WIS saves you probably weren't failing anyways. Additionally if you are going full support then you'll be wanting to make concentration saving throws which will be more common anyway.
[snip]
They specified dipping in warlock for pact of blade, giving charisma for attacking. Unless you care a lot about having a high speed, there is no reason a paladin built like that would have low ac. The strength scores listed just decrease speed by ten if you do not meet them.
They specified dipping in warlock for pact of blade, giving charisma for attacking. Unless you care a lot about having a high speed, there is no reason a paladin built like that would have low ac. The strength scores listed just decrease speed by ten if you do not meet them.
Ah right, that is one of the changes from 2014 to 2024, still 10 foot of movement speed is a lot if you're mainly melee you also need 13 Strength, which with the original rolled stats might work but those results are very sus IMO, either a non-standard rolling method or multiple re-rolls were allowed. For most builds with Standary Array or Point Buy, that 13 is gunna hurt too much to still be investing in wisdom like that.
That said, I'd personally not advise taking a warlock dip with those rolls, if we were talking about since Pact of the Blade ironically isn't actually adding much. I'd go down either the Eldritch Knight or College of Valor routes, they yield better results given the cantrips on extra attack that you get. Normally pact of the blade is great but this is where you get a +5 CHA modifier compared to just a +3 or +2 STR Modifier. With 17s and an 18. Take a STR half-feat at level 4, got +4s in both, then can easily end out with a +5 in both and can still multiclass if desired.
Absolutely, doubling back to the OP, with their rolls/stats no need for a warlock dip, just play a straight Paladin.
Mentioning the warlock pact of blade dip was just adding a 4th 'paladin' type to your (R3sistance) set of builds. As for the stats for that build, yes it has weird compromises depending on how you like your character rounded or stronger in certain areas, and it will never be a tank. Its just one other build. I usually point buy which works out to Str13, Dex13(+1), Con13, Int8, Wis13, Cha14(+2). They start with scale mail (AC 14+2) so equivalent AC to a classic STR paladin with chain mail at level 1, and go sword/board with a rapier so are only 1pt of Atk/Dmg behind the Str paladin with a longsword. (If comparing to a STR greatsword build your damage is less but your AC more.) - This could be done with the +1 to Con. It means more HP but less damage, so a harder 1st level but better after that.
Then add Warlock (blade pact) at level 2 and the pact blade is on par on Atk/Dmg with a strength build. With the ASI either (1) max CHA to max attack or (2) round out Con & Wis. Eventually upgrade equipment to half-plate leaving this paladin only -1 AC to the plate-wearing tank. By the second ASI I want Str13, Dex14, Con14, Int8, Wis14, Cha18. Then ASI 3 goes to CON. Giving CHA > CON > DEX/WIS > STR > INT. (Sorry, realize I should have said that was a 'final form'.) But that's just me and one 'paladin' style. The party scout, or even the cleric, is usually going to Perception better than me but I feel like I can do my part when standing watch and searching rooms, or noticing thugs in an alley or goblins in the bush.
Weirdness 1, this build can wield a greatsword as your pact weapon, just like a Str Pal. Weirdness 2, because there's always that point in any multiclass where your class level is a little behind your character level so your character may be level 5/6 but your Paladin/Warlock still doesn't have their extra attack. However your Eldritch Blast does. So, you may lean in to 'working around a weakness as character defining' and become an 'armored gunslinger' for a bit. It encourages bad guys to stay in smite range. Even if that smite is a Hex spell. :-) (Oh, and hex works at range with eldritch blast.)
Absolutely, doubling back to the OP, with their rolls/stats no need for a warlock dip, just play a straight Paladin.
Mentioning the warlock pact of blade dip was just adding a 4th 'paladin' type to your (R3sistance) set of builds. As for the stats for that build, yes it has weird compromises depending on how you like your character rounded or stronger in certain areas, and it will never be a tank. Its just one other build. I usually point buy which works out to Str13, Dex13(+1), Con13, Int8, Wis13, Cha14(+2). They start with scale mail (AC 14+2) so equivalent AC to a classic STR paladin with chain mail at level 1, and go sword/board with a rapier so are only 1pt of Atk/Dmg behind the Str paladin with a longsword. (If comparing to a STR greatsword build your damage is less but your AC more.) - This could be done with the +1 to Con. It means more HP but less damage, so a harder 1st level but better after that.
Then add Warlock (blade pact) at level 2 and the pact blade is on par on Atk/Dmg with a strength build. With the ASI either (1) max CHA to max attack or (2) round out Con & Wis. Eventually upgrade equipment to half-plate leaving this paladin only -1 AC to the plate-wearing tank. By the second ASI I want Str13, Dex14, Con14, Int8, Wis14, Cha18. Then ASI 3 goes to CON. Giving CHA > CON > DEX/WIS > STR > INT. (Sorry, realize I should have said that was a 'final form'.) But that's just me and one 'paladin' style. The party scout, or even the cleric, is usually going to Perception better than me but I feel like I can do my part when standing watch and searching rooms, or noticing thugs in an alley or goblins in the bush.
Weirdness 1, this build can wield a greatsword as your pact weapon, just like a Str Pal. Weirdness 2, because there's always that point in any multiclass where your class level is a little behind your character level so your character may be level 5/6 but your Paladin/Warlock still doesn't have their extra attack. However your Eldritch Blast does. So, you may lean in to 'working around a weakness as character defining' and become an 'armored gunslinger' for a bit. It encourages bad guys to stay in smite range. Even if that smite is a Hex spell. :-) (Oh, and hex works at range with eldritch blast.)
I disagree with this analysis. IMO, the proper stat order for that build is CHA > CON > STR > DEX > WIS > INT. The main thing here is charisma for spells and attacks. Constitution for health. Depending on what your priorities are, you can keep strength at 13 in order to multiclass, and deal with ten lower speed from heavy armor, or you can make it 15 (possibly using a half feat to do this) and keep full speed with plate armor. Dexterity is initiative, and wisom and intelligence aren't really doing anything for you. (wis is a more common save so it is higher)
With point buy you could do 13, 10, 16, 8, 10, 17. You could also rearrange slightly to make strength 15 to lose the speed reduction.
If you intend to dip warlock, I'd still suggest for most paladin builds to stick with CHA > STR > CON > WIS > INT/DEX in 2024.
The reasons aren't as apparent but obviously Charisma is the biggest attribute in this, so why keep Strength second if pushing for a SAD Charisma build? Well the obvious Strength requirements for heavy armour (more so plate) is one part and the requirement for multiclassing is another but the real reason lays in feats.
First off, most of the best feats that give Wisdom are also the same ones as Charisma, so you get a limited list left over to get anything in Wisdom. Second off I would say that damage output > taking more damage. The faster the party kills, the less damage you have to take and most constitution feats aren't going to help with damage, the one exception I'd give is Resilient Constitution, as if you are going for a support type build then concentration saving throw proficiency can really help keep buffs up where certain buffs like bless really do help kill quicker.
Naturally if you go heavy weapons, GWM is required and PAM is better in the long run. But if you go sword and board, Shield Master is great, except Shield Master oddly doesn't give Constitution, it only gives strength. Slasher and Piercer are both strength (and dex) not constitution so you'd be looking more at crusher since it does in fact give constitution, if you want to argument damage and then there is Charger too, which can help move faster around the field and can add additional damage, more so likely if paired with a push type weapon which helps with being a more zone/control type of tank.
Constitution still matters, it's more HP but Wisdom really doesn't, Getting a +1 to Wisdom is enough to be making most saving throws in the late game, with Proficiency and a +5 in Charisma, you'd be looking at a +12 to wisdom saving throws at level 20 where the highest DCs are usually 19, without considering equipment it's already a very high saving throw like this, at a 30% chance of failure, you could go with elf to reduce it even more for charms but more Wisdom isn't going to significantly improve much anymore as most smart hostile creatures won't target the obviously low chance to proc paladin for a Wis saving throw effect, unless it's some type of AoE but you're already a paladin with a +5 Aura of Protection which means even AoE saves like that are far more likely to fail.
Sure, those builds are fun, but by the time you're playing it that way why not just play as a STR paladin? (Assuming its not roll for attributes.) Then go to town with big weapons, etc., playing the heavy tank. The Pact Weapon Paladin is fun being not that tank build. And I can admit that my preferences for certain parts of my build may be technically sub-optimal because of personal preference (in this case the slightly higher WIS score for the reasons stated before) and build character.
Dex 10 - Jormunder, as you said "Dexterity is initiative". So I'll trade +2 dex for -1 AC, i.e., medium armor instead of plate mail. Which means only needing STR 13. And then using ASIs for +2 Attributes instead of +1+ability. And usually I find +2 attributes is more fun/effective than the special abilities of several of the feats. (For me; I know others disagree strongly.) With some notable exceptions. "Shield Master is great" as you said R3sistance, more so for STR builds of course.
Dex 10 - Jormunder, as you said "Dexterity is initiative". So I'll trade +2 dex for -1 AC, i.e., medium armor instead of plate mail. Which means only needing STR 13.
Is this dex 10 or dex 14? dex 14 would be -1 AC for Medium armor vs. Heavy Armor, for dex 10, it would be -3 AC. Initiative can be fixed by getting Alert as a background feat, it's not the best choice for paladin but still a good choice none the less.
Sorry, when I said "Dex 10" it was in reference to Jormunder's suggestion that "With point buy you could do 13, 10, 16, 8, 10, 17". Which means Dex+0 which I took as being a Heavy Armor build. I was just saying I prefer a medium armor build. Again, there's no real advantage to it, just preference. So I prefer to start or ASI to Dex 14 to eventually get to AC17 (half plate +2 Dex) with +2 on initiative (supporting Jormunder's observation that "Dexterity is initiative") instead of Dex 0 with full plate but no Dex+2 to initiative or stealth. Yes a character could take Alert as an Origin Feat (and the stealth is just in my head when rolling at disadvantage with medium armor) but I prefer some of the other origin feats instead. Like Magic Initiate if not taking the Warlock/Sorcerer dip, Tough is useful since I'm not maxing out Con relative to the other 2nd tier attributes. Alert is OK I agree, and Lucky should be good but I find it gives me too much 'decision indecision'. But Feats are even more dependent on play style preference. :-)
I tend to value what dex gives me so, I prefer to go 14 with medium armor when I can. Even with a heavy armor build, I'll take a 10 dex to keep from having a penalty.,
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Nahhh... get 13 in DEX while wearing Heavy armor and at least you can either get a feat to earn 10 ft more of movement or either you can get a +1 on initiative rolls.
We all know the Disadvantage in stealthing sucks for a Paladin, but at least when we are dungeoneering or trying to be as silence as we can, let's put a +1 in movements.
Sure, those builds are fun, but by the time you're playing it that way why not just play as a STR paladin? (Assuming its not roll for attributes.) Then go to town with big weapons, etc., playing the heavy tank. The Pact Weapon Paladin is fun being not that tank build. And I can admit that my preferences for certain parts of my build may be technically sub-optimal because of personal preference (in this case the slightly higher WIS score for the reasons stated before) and build character.
Dex 10 - Jormunder, as you said "Dexterity is initiative". So I'll trade +2 dex for -1 AC, i.e., medium armor instead of plate mail. Which means only needing STR 13. And then using ASIs for +2 Attributes instead of +1+ability. And usually I find +2 attributes is more fun/effective than the special abilities of several of the feats. (For me; I know others disagree strongly.) With some notable exceptions. "Shield Master is great" as you said R3sistance, more so for STR builds of course.
The stats I gave already have strength at 13. You could still go for medium armor to increase your speed, but that would require sacrifices elsewhere.
I rolled very well on my stats, so I’m not sure if I should go two-handed, sword-and-board, or dual-wielding. Right now, since I’m such a low level, I plan to use a shield until Tier 2 when I can get better armor.
I was thinking of going to Level 6 in Paladin for the aura, but I’m not sure where to go after that.
The group includes a monk, ranger, and cleric.
A Whisper Bard could be a good choice for the added melee damage. Two levels of Warlock would give me a familiar and Eldritch Blast. Is there anything else I should consider? Thanks for reading my post!
I've commented on this thread but ignored the OP as I find 18, 16, 16, 16, 15, 10 a little OP'ed already. But using these attributes what I would recommend is the following build.
For weapons, Pike and Halberd are preferable (Push + Cleave). For cantrips you'll want Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade & Eldritch Blast for using with Bard's extra attack.
For spells, early on Divine Favor is good, at level 17, pick up spirit shroud.
stats: 16,16,16,10,16(15+1),20(18+2) (these rolls are ridiculous)
Custom Background: Wisdom & Charisma, Tough/Magic Initiate (wizard[mainly for find familiar for advantage on attack rolla])
Human: Feat: Tough/Magic Initiate (wizard) (whichever one you didn't pick from the background)
Paladin 1: Heavy armor training, Weapon mastery, 5 hp of healing, Martial weapon proficiency. Spells: divine smite, divine favor
Warlock 1-2: Pact of the Blade, Agonizing Blast (true strike), Repelling Blast/Eldritch Mind/Fiendish Vigor, hex
Valor Bard 1-6: Many more spell slots, Extra Attack, Feat: idk, would've been asi, but cha. is already 20. Probably GWM.
Celestial Warlock 3-6: Radiant Soul (~5 extra dpr[guaranteed if using sword with graze]), Eldritch Smite, spirit shroud if third party content is allowed, Feat
Both fun builds.The blind fighting is a surprising choice (to me) and I'm sure very surprising to enemies when it kicks in. Or ending off with two epic bones (ASI) in a row. Both fun ideas.
Both fun builds.The blind fighting is a surprising choice (to me) and I'm sure very surprising to enemies when it kicks in. Or ending off with two epic bones (ASI) in a row. Both fun ideas.
For a Polearm build, it's really only three viable Fighting Styles, Blind Fighting, Defense & interception.
Interception is for if you have another front liner you want to mitigate some damage for, it can be a nice use of a reaction, however Polearm Master has it's own reaction you probably want to use first when it comes up.
Defense is a nice constant +1AC while wearing armour, a bit of a boring (vertical progression only)
Blind Fighting, while situational, is far more impactful in those situations. More so, pair Blind Fighting with the darkness spell or other similar effects and you get easy advantage against many foes, you can have another caster cast it for you or pick it up with either a multiclass (such as warlock) or by being an Infernal Tiefling. Lastly it also gives you a way to deal with invisible creatures, prepare shining smite and if ever you see an invisible creature, smite it and make it visible to the whole party.
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Nobody is expecting the Paladin to be the perception user, usually that'd be left to a skill monkey or WIS based class, Paladin already gets Wisdom save proficiency and Aura of Protection, so the reason a Paladin would go for Wisdom as their 4th stat is to basically make them better at WIS saves to the point where they can make WIS saves more often than not, not because of perception.
Generally speaking I'd always recommend one of the following:
Tank/DD Paladin: STR > CHA > CON > WIS > INT/DEX - probably the best builds and stereotypical build for Paladin
Support/healer Paladin: CHA > STR > CON > WIS > INT/DEX - more mixed but can work well with certain subclass choices.
Two-weapon fighting Paladin: DEX > CHA > CON > WIS > STR/INT - does not multiclass but can use bows well
As such with a standard array or point buy build, you'd rarely have more than a +1 Wisdom Modifier which really doesn't help that well with perception when others might get higher bonuses or get expertise. Instead Paladin is better focusing on social skills checks like persuasion, intimidation or performance or taking Athletics since Paladin is usually high Strength (Acrobatics if DEX based). Let's remember that sometimes the best way to win a combat is to avoid having one in the first place and Paladin is one of the best classes (after Bard, Sorcerer and Warlock) for using social checks to avoid battles which can instead be talked out.
Wisdom is the stat where I am most likely to play 'fun' over 'maths'.
I (probably) wouldn't put an ASI to Wis (especially not an early one) and I wouldn't push for more than 14. But for some reason getting Wis+2 just feels good for me. And if a +1 to wisdom isn't much bonus then a +1 to anything else isn't either. Right? :-)
Long-winded way of saying: play what feels fun to you.
PS, the other fun Paladin build is obviously CHA > CON > DEX/WIS > STR > INT using a 2 level warlock dip to get CHA as your attack stat. It makes a nice well-rounded paladin (or warlock playing as a paladin) with lots of 'blessed warrior' not 'angsty conflicted hero' paladin role-play potential. (Note that stat order has weird compromises depending on your play style, and will probably need an ASI for WIS to 'round it out'. But can do sword/board or greatwsword as you prefer.)
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
A CHA > CON > WIS > DEX > STR > INT would not make sense, you're basically leaving yourself with no decent attacks at all outside of spellcasting (why not just play a Cleric at that point?) and going with a woeful AC that even wizards would be left laughing at you over. Even if you're going for a support build, the ability to make attacks is important and AC can not be abandoned too that degree.
As far as Paladin goes, Aura of Protection will always mean CHA > WIS for saving throws, so unless you have maxed CHA then there is no point ever going for WIS and if you have maxed CHA then you still have enough things that are going to be more fun than investing in WIS, STR/DEX mostly, Since being able to make attacks and not being hit by every attack against you is going to be more fun in the long run over not just failing the few WIS saves you probably weren't failing anyways. Additionally if you are going full support then you'll be wanting to make concentration saving throws which will be more common anyway.
As for the fun angle, I played a Paladin in a game where dice were rolled, I got 17, 17, 11, 10, 10, 8. I went, 17, 10, 11, 8(+1), 10, 17(+2) with Tiefling Paladin. Using an ASI I Increased INT and CHA. I did not pick perception as a skill, so how did the game go? It was fun, a lot of fun. My paladin got a reputation for their terrible perception rolls; The rogue stole a gem next to the party, my paladin rolled low and saw nothing, the party broke into the local mayors house to get revenge while my paladin was bathing and my paladin saw nothing, one member of the party snuck an extra "mushroom" into the party stew and my paladin saw nothing. Most of the time, when you succeed, you succeed and it's on to the next thing but when you fail, those are the moments that can be the most fun, it can build character and then when you do succeed it becomes a rare moment and even more memorable. My paladin noticed the rogue trying to steal all the spices and herbs from a kitchen and so slapped her on the hand and quietly scolded her on the side, but normally the paladin wouldn't notice.
Ultimately no, I do not buy that making every perception check as every class is more fun, more so Paladin, in fact if you role-play paladin as paladin, it can infringe on everybody's fun since most paladin oaths are about upholding higher standards and may contain things like being against doing evil, stealing or telling lies. D&D is based around the idea that the party covers each other's weaknesses and so not every party member is meant to be good at everything. Additionally if you think you must succeed to have fun, you're actually damaging your own enjoyment and experience of the game, adapting to failing and working around it is often far more fun in the long run.
Finally, as I already mentioned, each character is meant to have things they are good at and things they are bad at, if you as a paladin are running perception then you're probably infringing on another player's fun by taking away from their checks, since other classes are meant to be running perception, like Rogue, Ranger, Cleric, Druid, Monk & Bard all can do. That is 6 classes that could be the "perception" classes and all certainly much better than Paladin for, in fact, Paladin is about the worst class for perception and the last class that should be taking it.
Sure, do what is fun but that isn't just about what is fun for you, it's about what is fun for everybody and yourself and I do believe paladins running perception is really not going to be pushing the fun as much as you think it does, paladin can do social checks well and works very well as a party face considering Paladin always wants Charisma in any build.
They specified dipping in warlock for pact of blade, giving charisma for attacking. Unless you care a lot about having a high speed, there is no reason a paladin built like that would have low ac. The strength scores listed just decrease speed by ten if you do not meet them.
Ah right, that is one of the changes from 2014 to 2024, still 10 foot of movement speed is a lot if you're mainly melee you also need 13 Strength, which with the original rolled stats might work but those results are very sus IMO, either a non-standard rolling method or multiple re-rolls were allowed. For most builds with Standary Array or Point Buy, that 13 is gunna hurt too much to still be investing in wisdom like that.
That said, I'd personally not advise taking a warlock dip with those rolls, if we were talking about since Pact of the Blade ironically isn't actually adding much. I'd go down either the Eldritch Knight or College of Valor routes, they yield better results given the cantrips on extra attack that you get. Normally pact of the blade is great but this is where you get a +5 CHA modifier compared to just a +3 or +2 STR Modifier. With 17s and an 18. Take a STR half-feat at level 4, got +4s in both, then can easily end out with a +5 in both and can still multiclass if desired.
Absolutely, doubling back to the OP, with their rolls/stats no need for a warlock dip, just play a straight Paladin.
Mentioning the warlock pact of blade dip was just adding a 4th 'paladin' type to your (R3sistance) set of builds. As for the stats for that build, yes it has weird compromises depending on how you like your character rounded or stronger in certain areas, and it will never be a tank. Its just one other build. I usually point buy which works out to Str13, Dex13(+1), Con13, Int8, Wis13, Cha14(+2). They start with scale mail (AC 14+2) so equivalent AC to a classic STR paladin with chain mail at level 1, and go sword/board with a rapier so are only 1pt of Atk/Dmg behind the Str paladin with a longsword. (If comparing to a STR greatsword build your damage is less but your AC more.) - This could be done with the +1 to Con. It means more HP but less damage, so a harder 1st level but better after that.
Then add Warlock (blade pact) at level 2 and the pact blade is on par on Atk/Dmg with a strength build. With the ASI either (1) max CHA to max attack or (2) round out Con & Wis. Eventually upgrade equipment to half-plate leaving this paladin only -1 AC to the plate-wearing tank. By the second ASI I want Str13, Dex14, Con14, Int8, Wis14, Cha18. Then ASI 3 goes to CON. Giving CHA > CON > DEX/WIS > STR > INT. (Sorry, realize I should have said that was a 'final form'.) But that's just me and one 'paladin' style. The party scout, or even the cleric, is usually going to Perception better than me but I feel like I can do my part when standing watch and searching rooms, or noticing thugs in an alley or goblins in the bush.
Weirdness 1, this build can wield a greatsword as your pact weapon, just like a Str Pal. Weirdness 2, because there's always that point in any multiclass where your class level is a little behind your character level so your character may be level 5/6 but your Paladin/Warlock still doesn't have their extra attack. However your Eldritch Blast does. So, you may lean in to 'working around a weakness as character defining' and become an 'armored gunslinger' for a bit. It encourages bad guys to stay in smite range. Even if that smite is a Hex spell. :-) (Oh, and hex works at range with eldritch blast.)
I disagree with this analysis. IMO, the proper stat order for that build is CHA > CON > STR > DEX > WIS > INT. The main thing here is charisma for spells and attacks. Constitution for health. Depending on what your priorities are, you can keep strength at 13 in order to multiclass, and deal with ten lower speed from heavy armor, or you can make it 15 (possibly using a half feat to do this) and keep full speed with plate armor. Dexterity is initiative, and wisom and intelligence aren't really doing anything for you. (wis is a more common save so it is higher)
With point buy you could do 13, 10, 16, 8, 10, 17. You could also rearrange slightly to make strength 15 to lose the speed reduction.
Sure, those builds are fun, but by the time you're playing it that way why not just play as a STR paladin? (Assuming its not roll for attributes.) Then go to town with big weapons, etc., playing the heavy tank. The Pact Weapon Paladin is fun being not that tank build. And I can admit that my preferences for certain parts of my build may be technically sub-optimal because of personal preference (in this case the slightly higher WIS score for the reasons stated before) and build character.
Dex 10 - Jormunder, as you said "Dexterity is initiative". So I'll trade +2 dex for -1 AC, i.e., medium armor instead of plate mail. Which means only needing STR 13. And then using ASIs for +2 Attributes instead of +1+ability. And usually I find +2 attributes is more fun/effective than the special abilities of several of the feats. (For me; I know others disagree strongly.) With some notable exceptions. "Shield Master is great" as you said R3sistance, more so for STR builds of course.
Is this dex 10 or dex 14? dex 14 would be -1 AC for Medium armor vs. Heavy Armor, for dex 10, it would be -3 AC. Initiative can be fixed by getting Alert as a background feat, it's not the best choice for paladin but still a good choice none the less.
Sorry, when I said "Dex 10" it was in reference to Jormunder's suggestion that "With point buy you could do 13, 10, 16, 8, 10, 17". Which means Dex+0 which I took as being a Heavy Armor build. I was just saying I prefer a medium armor build. Again, there's no real advantage to it, just preference. So I prefer to start or ASI to Dex 14 to eventually get to AC17 (half plate +2 Dex) with +2 on initiative (supporting Jormunder's observation that "Dexterity is initiative") instead of Dex 0 with full plate but no Dex+2 to initiative or stealth. Yes a character could take Alert as an Origin Feat (and the stealth is just in my head when rolling at disadvantage with medium armor) but I prefer some of the other origin feats instead. Like Magic Initiate if not taking the Warlock/Sorcerer dip, Tough is useful since I'm not maxing out Con relative to the other 2nd tier attributes. Alert is OK I agree, and Lucky should be good but I find it gives me too much 'decision indecision'. But Feats are even more dependent on play style preference. :-)
I tend to value what dex gives me so, I prefer to go 14 with medium armor when I can. Even with a heavy armor build, I'll take a 10 dex to keep from having a penalty.,
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Nahhh... get 13 in DEX while wearing Heavy armor and at least you can either get a feat to earn 10 ft more of movement or either you can get a +1 on initiative rolls.
We all know the Disadvantage in stealthing sucks for a Paladin, but at least when we are dungeoneering or trying to be as silence as we can, let's put a +1 in movements.
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
The stats I gave already have strength at 13. You could still go for medium armor to increase your speed, but that would require sacrifices elsewhere.
I've commented on this thread but ignored the OP as I find 18, 16, 16, 16, 15, 10 a little OP'ed already. But using these attributes what I would recommend is the following build.
Strength 18, Dexterity 15, Constitution 17(16+1), Intelligence 10, Wisdom 16, Charisma 18(16+2)
Background Merchant - Lucky
Level 1 Paladin 1 - Lay on Hands, Spellcasting ( Paladin ) , Weapon Mastery
Level 2 Paladin 2 - Fighting Style( Blind Fighting ), Paladin's Smite
Level 3 Paladin 3 - Channel Divinity, Paladin Subclass ( Oath of Devotion ), Oath of Devotion Spells, Sacred Weapon
Level 4 Paladin 4 - Feat ( Great Weapon Master ( +Strength) )
Level 5 Paladin 5 - Extra Attack, Faithful Steed
Level 6 Paladin 6 - Aura of Protection
Level 7 Bard 1 - Bardic Inspiration, Spellcasting ( Bard )
Level 8 Bard 2 - Expertise, Jack of all Trades
Level 9 Bard 3 - Bard Subclass ( College of Valor ), Combat Inspiration, Martial Training
Level 10 Bard 4 - Feat ( Polearm Master (+Strength) )
Level 11 Bard 5 - Font of Inspiration
Level 12 Bard 6 - Extra Attack
Level 13 Warlock 1 - Eldritch Invocation ( +Pact of the Tome ), Pact Magic ( Warlock )
Level 14 Warlock 2 - Magical Cunning, Eldritch Invocation ( +Fiendish Vigor, Agonizing Blast (Eldritch Blast) )
Level 15 Warlock 3 - Warlock Subclass ( *Any* )
Level 16 Warlock 4 - Feat ( Resilient (Constitution) )
Level 17 Warlock 5 - Eldritch Invocation ( +Eldritch Mind, Repelling Blast )
Level 18 Warlock 6 - * Subclass Feature *
Level 19 Warlock 7 - Eldritch Invocation ( Devil's Sight )
Level 20 Warlock 8 - Feat ( Ability Score Improvement ( +Charisma, +Charisma ) )
For weapons, Pike and Halberd are preferable (Push + Cleave). For cantrips you'll want Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade & Eldritch Blast for using with Bard's extra attack.
For spells, early on Divine Favor is good, at level 17, pick up spirit shroud.
Here's an idea I've been toying with for a while:
stats: 16,16,16,10,16(15+1),20(18+2) (these rolls are ridiculous)
Custom Background: Wisdom & Charisma, Tough/Magic Initiate (wizard[mainly for find familiar for advantage on attack rolla])
Human: Feat: Tough/Magic Initiate (wizard) (whichever one you didn't pick from the background)
Paladin 1: Heavy armor training, Weapon mastery, 5 hp of healing, Martial weapon proficiency. Spells: divine smite, divine favor
Warlock 1-2: Pact of the Blade, Agonizing Blast (true strike), Repelling Blast/Eldritch Mind/Fiendish Vigor, hex
Valor Bard 1-6: Many more spell slots, Extra Attack, Feat: idk, would've been asi, but cha. is already 20. Probably GWM.
Celestial Warlock 3-6: Radiant Soul (~5 extra dpr[guaranteed if using sword with graze]), Eldritch Smite, spirit shroud if third party content is allowed, Feat
Devotion Paladin 2-3: Paladin's Smite, Sacred Weapon
Champion Fighter 1-3: Improved Critical, Action Surge, Second Wind
Devotion Paladin 4: Epic boon
Champion Fighter 4: Epic boon
Both fun builds.The blind fighting is a surprising choice (to me) and I'm sure very surprising to enemies when it kicks in. Or ending off with two epic bones (ASI) in a row. Both fun ideas.
For a Polearm build, it's really only three viable Fighting Styles, Blind Fighting, Defense & interception.
Interception is for if you have another front liner you want to mitigate some damage for, it can be a nice use of a reaction, however Polearm Master has it's own reaction you probably want to use first when it comes up.
Defense is a nice constant +1AC while wearing armour, a bit of a boring (vertical progression only)
Blind Fighting, while situational, is far more impactful in those situations. More so, pair Blind Fighting with the darkness spell or other similar effects and you get easy advantage against many foes, you can have another caster cast it for you or pick it up with either a multiclass (such as warlock) or by being an Infernal Tiefling. Lastly it also gives you a way to deal with invisible creatures, prepare shining smite and if ever you see an invisible creature, smite it and make it visible to the whole party.