Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Hey guys,
I posted this in general tips, but I thought it would be better fitting here.
We are playing as party of 5 players. A rogue dwarf, a variant Human wizard, a half-elf artificer, a goliath barbarian and my high elf Paladin. We are playing by 2014 rules mostly(which is good for Paladins I would say), initially the DM, who is a new DM although he is very dedicated and learns fast, told us to adhere to the strict racial bonuses as standard, but then later since there were some mistakes in some sheets we were allowed to redistribute our points using the optional customized distribution rules, either the 2014 tasha's optional rules or the 2024 backgrounds' rules, each player could choose between these, but we should follow it strictly and not mix both, you had to follow either one of them and the skill proficiencies it dictated. Under my suggestion he also allowed us to pick between the 2024 feats and half-feats version and the 2014 one, we could choose any feat or half-feat from either one of them(at ASI/feat stages) which I deem good.
We are at level 7 currently, we are just about to get to level 8(probably next session), until level six we were playing with full health dices, then the DM chose to restrain our HPs until we equalized with the expected number for our level(which would be level 9), and we all started really strong because of the full health dices and initial magical items(even overpowered I would say), but it was fun and now he is balancing it more. Because of the optional customization of racial bonuses, in my case following the 2024 background rules, I was able to get acceptable stats for a high elf which isn't usually the best choice for Paladins, but I think it is thematically very fitting. Our campaign is mostly RP heavy but there are little spices of power gaming, although this is not the focus and narrative cohesion is preferred. My character is an Oath of Conquest Paladin with 15 strength, 12 dexterity, 14 constitution, 8 intelligence, 10 wisdom and 17 charisma, since his background is Noble, he got the origin feat skilled, counting everything his proficiencies are History, Perception, Insight, Persuasion, Intimidation, Medicine, Athletics, wisdom and charisma saving throws, quite a lot for a Paladin. Since my character has a very heavy lore and is somewhat the party face, checks in general and social checks in particular are very important for him, that's why I didn't want to dump wisdom or intelligence completely and keep him good but balanced. Because he is an elf and comes from a noble house especialized in warfare among the high elves(he has important military positions in his kingdom), I leaned into the longbow as well, despite the Greatsword being his main melee weapon, that's why his dexterity is not so dumped. I want my character to be powerful but I don't want to fully min-max, I don't want him to lose his skills at checks that are important(like Perception and Insight), his stats are not higher than that because of it and due to choosing the Fey Touched half-feat at level 4, that's why my charisma currently sits at an uneven 17. But Fey Touched is a very good feat and very useful for a Conquest Paladin. I have of course Misty Step and Silvery Barbs as my spells, Silvery Barbs is great for a Conquest Paladin. My character wears a full plate armor, uses the defense fighting style and possesses the Necklace of Prayer Beads with the first 3 beads(Bless, Cure Wounds and Greater Restoration for now) and a very strong Wakened Dragon's Wrath very rare Greatsword, we were allowed at the beginning to choose either a very rare item or two uncommon and one rare, yes I know, completely OP.
So now I am stuck on what to do on level 8 and then forwards between feat/ASI progression and the possibility of multiclassing. I might not want to multiclass, I am not sure yet and the DM said he might not allow it, he is still thinking about it, so I can't really rely on that. If I only choose ASIs I will be able the max both strength and charisma by level 19(our campaign is expected to reach level 20), but not before and only if I ignore feats and half-feats. But I was very interested in picking GWM(2024 version) half-feat at level 8, which would increase my damage considerably and give me occasional extra bonus action attacks due to the triggers, especially killing enemies, extra attacks are always valuable for Paladins. I know that people talk about Polearm master, but I find Greatswords much cooler and my weapon is incredibly strong, so not for this feat, also as a consequence of that no shields or shield based feats. My question is, what would be better:1- go full ASI all the way until level 19. 2- pick GWM at level 8 and round up my strength. 3- pick Sentinel and also round up my strength, which triggers perhaps even more extra attacks than GWM. 4- pick some charisma based half-feat like warcaster?. 5- Pick any other full feat and sacrifice my stats progression. In this option I thought about magic heavy feats like Metamagic Adept or Magic Initiate. I should say that both look much better mechanically than Warcaster, which to me is not so good for my build. If I choose a half-feat at level 8, I will have to choose another half-feat at some other level, because mathematically either strength or charisma would end up at 19 if I did not do so. I also saw that Squire of Solamnia is a very good feat, the advantage it gives and the extra damage, but especially Knight of the Sword looks great, which also increases my charisma and allows me to trigger the fear effect without spending resources. I would pick Knight of the Sword if I didn't have to pick Squire of Solamnia first and then damage my stat progression, but it is not allowed, I don't think the dm will allow it.
So what do you think? in most cases people would favor charisma because of the conquest build, but besides the hard to get Knight of the Sword, the strength based half-feats are just better and they increase my damage a lot(especially GWM), they combined with my 4 d6 +2 damage sword is really OP. I want to maximize my charisma, but my strength is alredy lagging a little behind, so I am in a very difficult MAD dilemma. And although unlikely, what do you think about multiclassing, in our table it would have to fit the lore, so proably warlock builds would be off the table, I see Battlemaster Fighter as a good option, especially with this sword, also as far as I know, Hexblade warlock does not allow a two handed Greatsword.
Mechanically, that 15 Strength and 17 Charisma makes the ASI increase at level 8 to both so strong: a +4 to all saving throws and social skill checks (in the campaign you're describing in particular) sounds really good, and bumping STR 16 is noticeable bump to accuracy. GWM (2024) would be the better damage option though.
There's not much I can think of to capitalize on Oath of Conquest as a choice at this point (if you had Squire feat/could go into Swords, that would compliment it really well, but that ship has sailed).
You only good options.
Thanks Kuio!
Did you mean "you(r) only good options" or just saying that I only had good options? regarding the charisma modifier, it only applies to saves right? as far as I know social skill checks don't add the charisma mod. The charisma mod is always good, mostly for spells and channel divinity DCs. the double attributes increase seems like the most obvious choice, but I feel like GWM overall makes my character better in combat(+6 to attacks per turn and the extra attack trigger), it also increases my longbow damage that is lagging behind, I would sacrifice a +1 increase in spell DCs though, really hard choice. And between GWM and something like Warcaster at level 8, which one would you favor? is there any better option for a charisma half-feat?
Regarding warcaster, if I combine it with Booming Blade I could do a lot of damage in an opportunity attack, my high elf has access to a wizard cantrip. In case the DM allows Knight of the Sword feat at level 8, would you still pick it over GWM? my magical sword combined with my other bonuses gives me currently +7 to hit, but we are facing high CR monsters because the party is really OP, usually bosses are around CR 11-12, so I worry about not hitting, my spells and control is a great option, but sometimes damage is still preferable.
And what is your take on multiclassing as a Battlemaster fighter after level 11 or 12 as opposed to remaining a full Paladin all the way?
Social skills (persuasion, intimidation, deception) all use CHA as the ability, so yeah, increasing it would bump those up, too. And remember, the + to saves isn't just for yourself (though party composition will dictate how useful that is in many situations).
I typed that out on my phone, but I think I meant to say/write: "You only have good options."
As Sabin mentions above: your Charisma Modifier feeds into your social skill checks (which, given how you're describing your campaign, sounds valuable to you), compliments your Spellcasting modifier (bumping the saves a creature needs to make when you do cast spells with a detrimental effect) and bumps your Aura of Protection's +3 to +4 (as Sabin says above, a benefit to your ability to avoid harmful effects (in the 2014's case, even asleep) and your party's ability to do the same. If you go the route of choosing to increase your ability scores, it will make a difference across the board to have an even number on Strength and Charisma - you'll be trading your survivability/social check increase there for more damage with GWM.
I'd probably never go the Battlemaster on a Paladin, especially by level 11/12 - Action Surge is very strong (for everyone if you're using 2014 Action Surge), but a lot of your damage at those levels is defined the number spell slots/their spell level - that's why people multi-class out of Paladin around level 6 or 11 (if you're going to level 11, it's for the Improved Divine Smite feature (2014 - the 2024 feature is Radiant Strikes for reference)). That's one of the issues the game has with multiclassing on Half-Casters, mechanically, it will always be better to be a Paladin Sorcerer or Paladin Bard than just a Paladin or Paladin anything - so I'd either stick with Paladin, or go into a Charisma based full caster (which will be infinitely more potent than Battlemaster manuevers).
If you ever do want to indulge in a Battlemaster character that can use magic, multiclassing into a Fullcaster would be stronger than ever indulging that combination with Paladin - BUT at the same time - it's your campaign, have fun making choices that will make you happy playing it!
I see Kuio. Only good options indeed. You have convinced me not to go Battlemaster.
But then, which one do you think is better, staying full Paladin all the way to level 20, multiclassing into Divine Soul Sorcerer after level 12(due to improved divine smites and the level 12 ASI) or multiclassing into Undead Warlock(and how many levels into it?). The advantage of remaining full Paladin is that, although I have less spell slots, I will have access to 4th and 5th level spell slots, by going into warlock and sorcerer I won't, so no things like Holy weapon, Find Greater Steed(very good for a Paladin) and especially Banishing Smite, or even the higher damage of 4th and 5th level divine smites. The conquest capstone seems pretty solid too.
The thing between the ASI/feats dilemma, is that either I go full ASI all the way or I choose half-feats, no in between, mathematically these are the only two options that make sense.
I think waiting until 12 is basically locking you into full Pally. If you want to MC into a CHA caster, you do it earlier to get the higher level spell slots.
I also don't quite agree that MCing into a CHA caster makes a paladin a "better" paladin than a pure class paladin, unless you think that the only defining characteristics of a paladin are smites and find steed (they are definitely on-theme, though!).
It's more an issue with Half-Caster progression and how mechanically your Paladin spells don't care if you're a full-Paladin or not (this is an issue with both 2014/2024 Paladins). Having access to more/higher Spell-Slots/Spells just opens doors the last 8 levels of Paladin do not for Control/Damage (which is hopefully something they resolve in the next rules update at some point, or can multiclassing entirely).
I'll always say do whatever feels right for that character: whether that's stick with Paladin, or narratively find space for a Warlock or Sorcerer. As for which of the two classes is stronger for the Paladin multiclass into: Sorcerer, from Paladin 12, you'll get access to 5th level Sorcerer Spells and your Spell Slots progression will cap at 7th level (if pivot Sorcerer immediately after 8th level, you'll have access to 6th level spells/up to an 8th level spell-slot).
I'd say make a Copy of your Character Sheet on DNDB and play around with kind character you want to have at those levels, and you can see the progression first hand.
EDIT: As for what I'd do, I'd just play straight Paladin. Even if mechanically it's not all that, chasing bigger numbers isn't all that desirable unless that's just how the campaign being run (if your DM designing encounters for more optimized builds, and you're running the least optimized character in the Party, that can be a drag on everyone else, but everyone's doing their own thing, then you DM won't have to pump up the difficulty.
Do not underestimate the 18th Pal ability to have their aura at 30' instead of 10'.
Life's hard - get a helmet!
Right, but my point was mostly that more/better spells and spell slots doesn't make a paladin a better paladin. It just makes for a more optimized character (assuming you have enough hp from earlier levels to remain a frontline fighter—your job—as you start adding a d6 to the rest). The Pally/Sorc = better pally argument really only works if you are basing your definition of "paladin" as "a character that can smite the crap out of anything" (due to allowing better upcasting).
I will say that I brain farted on MC spell slot rules when I wrote the first sentence, though, thinking that you'd still only have up to level 5 slots with a pal 12/sor 8 build.
Well Kuio, regarding the problematic of single class and multiclass, I see both sides. Single class Paladins are thematically cohesive, have access to all Paladin features and have higher hit dies. The great advantage of having more spell slots due to sorcerer is counterbalanced by the reduced HPs. And even if I multiclass into sorcerer at level 12 or earlier, let's say 9 or 10, my Paladin known spells are limited and as far as I know I can't cast let's say a Paladin 4th level or 5th level spell using sorcerer's spell slots, I can cast divine smite, sure, but not Banishing Smite or Aura of Life for example, Find Greater Steed. Some higher level Paladin spells are really interesting, and some good Conquest Oath spells.
Conquest oath is one of the strongest in 2014 rules in my opinion, their channel divinity and auras are really good, and they have good oath spells as well, this combined with the level 18 auras and especially level 20 capstone don't seem to be really that behind a sorcerer/pally multiclass, and especially warlock(which does not grant that many high level spells slots, I would be limited toi 3rd level spell slots if I multiclass into warlock at level 12). Conquest capstone seems like the best in 2014 rules I would say.
But sure, I will simulate the sheet progression as you said. Thanks for the tip.