Atheist or non-devout paladins?

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

If you're going to necro a thread, at least use the quote button if you'd like to respond to a specific post in it so that other people have some idea of which one you're referring to.  Using the reply button just lets people know that you're responding to a post, not which one it is.  That's not useful, especially with a thread that's almost a year old.

 Especially, since most of the people who were arguing that a paladin should have a deity, were not arguing that the rules of 5e say they need one, but more for flavor or thematically, they should have one.  

Quote from Seldarine801 >>

Quote from Lathlaer >>

https://twitter.com/theedverse/status/1105133525118976001

This is what the creator of FR has to say about Paladins in his setting, if anyone is interested :)

 I love Ed. Thanks for sharing! I follow him on Twitter, but I'm not on there that much, so I miss a lot of his tweets.

Quote from Third_Sundering >>

Quote from Seldarine801 >>

Likely an unpopular opinion, but a non-theist paladin has never made much sense to me, especially in a setting where the gods are very real. In Forgotten Realms, for example, most Faerunians are polytheistic, praying to a number of deities throughout their lives, eventually leaning towards one above the other. Others, such as paladins, have a defined patron. Maybe in some cases that patron--let's use Tyr as an example--chose them, but a paladin will swear an oath to Tyr not just because "the god said so", but because the paladin wants to uphold the dogma of Tyr--ie, it resonates with him. I'm not particularly religious irl, but in D&D, where the gods are indeed real, atheism really doesn't make sense to me (though in D&D, true atheism in the way we think of it is likely very rare. Most "atheists" would acknowledge the gods exist, but don't worship them).

Regardless of your real-world beliefs (or non-beliefs), it's fantasy, explore it! We have dragons, elves, magic, gnomes, dwarves, unicorns, and all other manner of fantastical things. No one seems to have a problem with that, but bring in the gods, and suddenly, people take issue. To me, this is sometimes at the core of the argument people make for the godless paladin, which is why I bring it up (not making a jab at atheists, just pointing out it is something I have noticed). People want the "perks" of being a paladin, but don't want to follow a deity. Same deal with clerics. Religion isn't automatically a negative thing. 

I can understand that from a narrative and storytelling standpoint, something like a "fallen paladin" could be interesting, but overall, godless paladin just doesn't make sense to me. I realize many are probably going to disagree, but those are my two cents. 

Then again, reading some other comments (I have not read through the entire thread, admittedly), I am reminded of classes like grave cleric, and I know paladins can swear oaths to something. Generally, though (at least in my experience), even a cleric who worships something like life, death, etc, also has a deity they follow. Same with a paladin swearing an oath to something like justice. 

Why would it be easier to be a paladin without a deity than with one? I don't understand that. Multiple people have stated that "people want the benefits of being a paladin without any of the work" which is a complete strawman and false statement. Non-theistic paladins still have to follow their oaths. It is no easier to be a godless paladin than a paladin with a deity. 

 I didn't say it would be easier, but it does indeed seem (to me) that people want the "perks" of being a paladin (or cleric) without having to have a deity, because for one reason or another, they don't want to deal with the deities, but still want the "benefits" of being a paladin. I'm sorry if it's a strawman argument, but it's certainly the impression I have gotten. Sure, non-theistic paladins still have to follow their oaths, but the very idea of a non-theistic paladin makes little sense to me, is my point (of course, this will vary by the setting you are playing in, too. Eberron and Dark Sun are less god-heavy, for example, so a non-theistic paladin as an option makes more sense for those settings).

 Apologies for super-necroing this thread - but I want to point out what I see as a gap in the argument against a non-theistic paladin. Much of the argument against such a thing seems to boil down to who/what determines if the Paladin's oath is broken. Personally I'm inclined towards some variant of "the version of yourself who made the oath"/superego(as someone else mentioned). But this is not the core issue I see. 

If we grant that a paladin can work in "less god-heavy" settings like Eberron, then in those settings who/what determines if the Oath was violated? I personally have little experience with Eberron as a setting so I don't know. But If you're granting that a non-theistic paladin can work in Eberron(a setting that you say is not god-heavy), whatever makes that determination there can also do the same in Forgotten Realms or other settings. If there's something specific that exists in Eberron but does not in FR, do let me know. But otherwise, ceding that Paladins work in a setting without gods, seems like it settles the debate quite firmly, even if the specifics are left hanging.