All skill checks are ability checks. The DM calls for an ability check after the player states what their character is trying to do in a given situation. Sometimes the DM allows the player to add their character's proficiency bonus to the ability check if it is related to a skill that the character is proficient in. A player NEVER tells the DM they are making an ability check.
There are three kinds of rolls in 5E: Ability Checks, Saving Throws, and Attack Rolls.
why are you making your numbers as “expertise” for deft explorer... but when you compare to natural explorer you are removing proficiency all together?
its +2, then +3 and so forth. The player would still be PROFICIENT, they just would not have EXPERTISE. Hence, the advantage is much better for a long long long long time. Even discounting the advantage is for more than just 1 specific skill.
And I am sorry, that you have never seen a straight wisdom or straight intelligence check in any campaign you have been in. But I can safely assure you. This is a real thing, that can and does happen.
For ease of use we will assume that the both players have the same Wisdom modifier and we will set that at a static +3. Giving the Ranger a +5 when they are in their terrain it does give them an edge, but they get trounced outside of that.
Level
Deft Exp
Nat Exp (out)
Nat Exp (in)
1-4
7
5
10
5-8
9
6
11
9-12
11
7
12
13-16
13
8
13
17+
15
9
14
I didn't say that "[I] have never seen a straight wisdom or straight intelligence check in any campaign you have been in" I said that I have never heard of anyone letting NE function on one.
How are you getting the numbers in this chart? They don't make any sense to me.
The problem with his numbers is primarily in the third column. He's decided that it's only worth a flat number and so with that flat number in mind it's not getting the same increases. It's a bit of math abuse to make his chart what it is. The Reality is that the first and 3rd columns are the same but the third column actually applies to several more skills than the first one.
His exact math for the first and second columns otherwise is just as he says. A flat +3 Wisdom Modifier and then an increasing proficiency modifier. With the first column getting an additional point at each increase at the appropriate times.
Other than the math being a trick for column three. he's also playing a fun little game of Lies by Omission because he's making it seem like they apply entirely to the same skills when they do not. Because Mathematically column 3 looks a lot better if your getting that +7 or +11 or +15 over just 2 or 3 different skills compared to the One that Deft Explorer applies to, even if that bonus is only part of the time. Though Aaron is one of the ones that argues strongest for why things do not apply to other skills, so if we took it from his seemingly rigid viewpoint on the matter. Then it is only comparing one skill to one skill. Which then makes the math and the Lie by Omission make more Sense because to him he's not omitting anything.
I see. SHouldn't his column 1 and 3 be the same numbers?
I really think that folks just need to pick their favorite flavor of ice cream and move on. A while back a suggested that the skill focused classes/subclasses are on a spectrum of "deep and narrow" to "shallow and wide" with: Scout Rogues - Tasha's Rangers - Knowledge Clerics - PGB Rangers - Bards.
People love rogues because of that sweet sweet expertise. People love bards (for lots of reasons) because of of jack of all trades (they get some expertise too). The knowledge cleric gets some expertise and a flexible ability to gain proficiency bonus to any skill or tool for a bit. Tasha's ranger get some combat stuff and one expertise. And the PHB ranger gets many expertise that comes online in different situations and/or places, i.g. "...related to your favored terrain...". All of these get for proficiencies than most other classes. And each is weighted towards their on specific flavor or focus.
why are you making your numbers as “expertise” for deft explorer... but when you compare to natural explorer you are removing proficiency all together?
its +2, then +3 and so forth. The player would still be PROFICIENT, they just would not have EXPERTISE. Hence, the advantage is much better for a long long long long time. Even discounting the advantage is for more than just 1 specific skill.
And I am sorry, that you have never seen a straight wisdom or straight intelligence check in any campaign you have been in. But I can safely assure you. This is a real thing, that can and does happen.
For ease of use we will assume that the both players have the same Wisdom modifier and we will set that at a static +3. Giving the Ranger a +5 when they are in their terrain it does give them an edge, but they get trounced outside of that.
Level
Deft Exp
Nat Exp (out)
Nat Exp (in)
1-4
7
5
10
5-8
9
6
11
9-12
11
7
12
13-16
13
8
13
17+
15
9
14
I didn't say that "[I] have never seen a straight wisdom or straight intelligence check in any campaign you have been in" I said that I have never heard of anyone letting NE function on one.
How are you getting the numbers in this chart? They don't make any sense to me.
I was mixing up the bonus of FE and NE, with the back and forth of each at the time I was thinking NE was advantage (+5). So really the only column that matters in 1 and 2.
Also...
All skill checks are ability checks. The DM calls for an ability check after the player states what their character is trying to do in a given situation. Sometimes the DM allows the player to add their character's proficiency bonus to the ability check if it is related to a skill that the character is proficient in. A player NEVER tells the DM they are making an ability check.
There are three kinds of rolls in 5E: Ability Checks, Saving Throws, and Attack Rolls.
The problem with his numbers is primarily in the third column. He's decided that it's only worth a flat number and so with that flat number in mind it's not getting the same increases. It's a bit of math abuse to make his chart what it is. The Reality is that the first and 3rd columns are the same but the third column actually applies to several more skills than the first one.
His exact math for the first and second columns otherwise is just as he says. A flat +3 Wisdom Modifier and then an increasing proficiency modifier. With the first column getting an additional point at each increase at the appropriate times.
Other than the math being a trick for column three. he's also playing a fun little game of Lies by Omission because he's making it seem like they apply entirely to the same skills when they do not. Because Mathematically column 3 looks a lot better if your getting that +7 or +11 or +15 over just 2 or 3 different skills compared to the One that Deft Explorer applies to, even if that bonus is only part of the time. Though Aaron is one of the ones that argues strongest for why things do not apply to other skills, so if we took it from his seemingly rigid viewpoint on the matter. Then it is only comparing one skill to one skill. Which then makes the math and the Lie by Omission make more Sense because to him he's not omitting anything.
I see. SHouldn't his column 1 and 3 be the same numbers?
I really think that folks just need to pick their favorite flavor of ice cream and move on. A while back a suggested that the skill focused classes/subclasses are on a spectrum of "deep and narrow" to "shallow and wide" with: Scout Rogues - Tasha's Rangers - Knowledge Clerics - PGB Rangers - Bards.
People love rogues because of that sweet sweet expertise. People love bards (for lots of reasons) because of of jack of all trades (they get some expertise too). The knowledge cleric gets some expertise and a flexible ability to gain proficiency bonus to any skill or tool for a bit. Tasha's ranger get some combat stuff and one expertise. And the PHB ranger gets many expertise that comes online in different situations and/or places, i.g. "...related to your favored terrain...". All of these get for proficiencies than most other classes. And each is weighted towards their on specific flavor or focus.
I was mixing up the bonus of FE and NE, with the back and forth of each at the time I was thinking NE was advantage (+5). So really the only column that matters in 1 and 2.
I didn't understand what you were asking until now. basically Arronwho re-worded the question but apparently couldn't delete the first one.