More thoughts on this spell beyond just simple damage.
Damage mitigation. Just as temporary hit points and healing hit points are good, so to is avoiding being hit at all. Anything from blood hawks to cows can absorb at least one enemy attack each. This is a huge benifit to this spell. It is an indirect party buff spell in this regard. Put your animals near enemies and hope they take a hit. Having the beasts just run up next to enemies and dodge is great as it will still get them some opportunity attacks while making them even harder to hit.
Even the most terrible (from a combat perspective) beast choices can use the help action. Frogs, snakes, hawks, all of them can give your fellow party members with -5/+10 feats a target rich environment. Sometimes the damage from a spell slot comes from enhancing the damage output from the entire party and not just the spell slot directly.
Even the most terrible (from a combat perspective) beast choices can use the help action. Frogs, snakes, hawks, all of them can give your fellow party members with -5/+10 feats a target rich environment. Sometimes the damage from a spell slot comes from enhancing the damage output from the entire party and not just the spell slot directly.
Yeah it's not bad don't get me wrong but to me it's still damage but with extra steps.
I'm in full agreement the spell has a ton of combat goodies:
Area control, damage mitigation, damage delivery, buffing
Hence why it's pretty much a must pick for rangers and a must use in any big fight.
It's also why I don't really like it overall ... It's just too good to justify using just about anything else
More thoughts on this spell beyond just simple damage.
Lets not forget about possibly creatures with blindsight or other creative utility. I love having lots of giant badgers digging a tunnel.
There are also down sides to it that make it not an absolute combat choice just a good one.
Crowding.- I rarely see all 8 cr 1/4 creatures make an attack in a single turn beacause of crowding and positioning.
more creatures = Aoe weekness. enemies can have things like plant growth and web too. even extra attack is basically AOE for two creatures at a high enough level meaning all the extras disapear fast. Not to mention a single loss of concentration stops the spell (maybe that's part of the concentration obsession but it could ruin fun for some)
no class or ability centered build is going to cover every weakness. Its creates intreasting combat not bad ones. unless the dm and player just turn the game into a uninspired slugfest.
Too good to justify using just about anything else?!
Like divine smite, action surge, rage, sneak attack, or eldritch blast? Come on, man.
You know what I mean.....
Other ranger spells. Once you get Conjure Animals there is not really a better option most of the time.
Heck even upcasting it is generally better than the higher level ranger spells.
Yes. I do know what you mean. This comes online, conveniently, right about when rangers “fall behind” at level 11. So it seems like an appropriate and intentional fit for the class. I just don’t think your comment is helpful seeing as how all of the other classes that hit enemies with weapons have been doing the same thing since level 1 and will continue to do so their entire life. It’s a really great spell that only 2.25 classes have access to.
Too good to justify using just about anything else?!
Like divine smite, action surge, rage, sneak attack, or eldritch blast? Come on, man.
You know what I mean.....
Other ranger spells. Once you get Conjure Animals there is not really a better option most of the time.
Heck even upcasting it is generally better than the higher level ranger spells.
Yes. I do know what you mean. This comes online, conveniently, right about when rangers “fall behind” at level 11. So it seems like an appropriate and intentional fit for the class. I just don’t think your comment is helpful seeing as how all of the other classes that hit enemies with weapons have been doing the same thing since level 1 and will continue to do so their entire life. It’s a really great spell that only 2.25 classes have access to.
It's just sad they have to rely on it so heavily and imo the spell is not only overtuned but in my experience a nightmare to run with that many critters.
I (as a DM and player) have the beasts use average damage, which saves way more dice rolling and time then using the mass combat rules. The player also states the commands given and the DM moves the beasts, as they are tactical extensions of the caster, so they don’t move into hyper tactical positions, this also saves a lot of time. I like to use dice, so I have 8 pairs of matched d20s and something to roll in, that way I can make one huge roll in a contained area and get attacks or ability checks made and resolved very quickly, even with advantage or disadvantage. (There is also a great dice rolling command for Discord to roll multiple instances of the same thing I use when needed.) I also use color coordinated minis for the beasts or 8-sided dice to make tracking their hit points accurate and fast.
I think a lot of players take the approach and use the tools they use for running a single PC and try to use that to run 8, 4, 2, or even 1 extra creatures on the board, and that is a recipe for failure. Just as rogues sneak attacking, mages fireballing, and paladins divine smiting have handfuls of dice to run their class features, so to should druids, rangers, and a few bards to run their class features.
I (as a DM and player) have the beasts use average damage, which saves way more dice rolling and time then using the mass combat rules. The player also states the commands given and the DM moves the beasts, as they are tactical extensions of the caster, so they don’t move into hyper tactical positions, this also saves a lot of time. I like to use dice, so I have 8 pairs of matched d20s and something to roll in, that way I can make one huge roll in a contained area and get attacks or ability checks made and resolved very quickly, even with advantage or disadvantage. (There is also a great dice rolling command for Discord to roll multiple instances of the same thing I use when needed.) I also use color coordinated minis for the beasts or 8-sided dice to make tracking their hit points accurate and fast.
That sure helps but doesn't help with AoE effects, conditions, buffs, debuff, etc.
The higher you go HP is the least of your worries for tracking it's all the Frightened, Incapacitated, Blind, Deafened, etc that you need to roll to resolve each turn on top of HP, attack rolls, THP etc.
Ah. I see. Well that hasn’t come up for me in the level of extremes you’re talking about.
When it does, I use the tools provided by Owlbear Rodeo (or whichever VTT) for online (like status rings or markers), and I have little multicolored elastic hair ties for minis/dice that I use at a table (similar to Matt Mercer’s plastic drink bottle rings). It makes it so conditions has never really bogged me down to a point that it was a hassle for me or the table.
Ah. I see. Well that hasn’t come up for me in the level of extremes you’re talking about.
When it does, I use the tools provided by Owlbear Rodeo (or whichever VTT) for online (like status rings or markers), and I have little multicolored elastic hair ties for minis/dice that I use at a table (similar to Matt Mercer’s plastic drink bottle rings). It makes it so conditions has never really bogged me down to a point that it was a hassle for me or the table.
Even with such tools it makes the average turn for a ranger about twice as long as before....its just not a spell that is "quick combat friendly" . Now a lot of tables won't mind and I am fine with that. I have been at such tables. However I have also been at some tables where this process is NOT streamlined and it was pretty painful.
I won't begrudge anyone their own fun of course but I personally dislike minionmancy with more than 3 creatures.
Yeah. It can take a long time for someone without the experience or preparation to do it well. But that is the same with any class. Like when people file each attack separate, each da mage roll separate, and each rider roll separate. I could take 2 conjure animal turns in that amount of time.
It really doesn’t take that long. Certainly longer than a ranger only shooting a bow, but shorter than many other classes on their turn.
Conjure Animals got my party's bacon out of the fire on a very important occasion not that long ago while I was playing a temporary character in the campaign. My Dragonborn Fighter was out of commission and the party needed to get some work done in the nearby wilderness. Said wilderness is surrounded by a pretty cursed land and has some druids somewhere inside that are fairly isolationist, along with some very dangerous wildlife that even the normal monsters of the cursed city don't just wander in to f*** with unless they are baddest of the bad.
In steps my Dwarf Ranger (Beast Master, Primal Companion variant) was hired as a local guide who knows his way around the city in general and those woods in particular. Lead them around, make contact with the druids, get some critical rare plants and ingredients, get out. Small problem, we're not less than an hour inside the woods when the party gets to see the pecking order very graphically put on display, with a hunting party of druids and barbarians being the finale. This is a problem because you do NOT want them to be your first contact, they tend to be kinda extremely hostile to outsiders and will not leave you in any position to bargain. Time to sneak around.
That turned into a botched job, paladin even with Pass without a Trace is not sneaky. It turns into us running to break contact with them to avoid capture, but there's only so many ways to try and do that when the people chasing you literally live here and can move across the difficult terrain better than you. Or can fly, damn druids.
Solution? Conjure Animals. How? Quantity has a quality all of its own, but quality in quantity is a game changer. Four 1/2 CR rating beasts. Or in my decision, four armies. Swarm of Insects (wasp variant) called up and forced into the paths of pursuers, and I told the DM they are explicitly going to not just wildly attack our pursuers but aim for eyes, ears, noses, anything to ANNOY and force them to deal with them. And we keep running.
After that it's a bit of running, some spells from the casters to help move along the slower ones, and apparently alot of cursing from our pursuers while dealing with the wasps that never leave them alone. My DM decided that the wasps should also get Sting instead of just Bite so there was a lot of con saves happening on their end.. We all escape, mission continues. Good day all around.
So yes, Conjure Animals are a fantastic tool for escaping pursuit and annoying enemies. Better than looking for something to be the most devastating beast in a battle, use them for alternative strategies.
"I don't give a rat's f***ing ass how big it is, it can still bleed and I'm not dealing with this s*** a minute longer!!!" -Brass Khorne, Dragonborn Rogue/Fighter Battlemaster.
"Welcome to the Weeping Willow! Ale, rooms, or both?...Yes, dogs are fine, why does everyone ask that?" -Lucky Shot, Tabaxi Eldritch Knight and Innkeeper
"Greetings, I'm Sir Dexter of House Barkton. What do I do? I'm a Good Boy." -Dexter, Awakened Dog Rogue and knight of the realm.
Yes! Tactically this spell offers so many options, both in combat and out.
I would 100% allow someone to conjure swarms. The balance comes from the CR, not the flavor of the swarm being made up of multiple animals.
You may but the designers were clear on intent.
DM willing it's a thing but RAW I would say it's not.
They do drastically effect the summon as typically beasts do not get b/p/s resistance like swarms do and ultimately I think that effects their CR when it comes to facing other creatures rather than PCs.
Ultimately will it effect the spell? It could depending on what you pick but ultimately higher numbers of creatures is pretty much always better. Even if you get CR 0 creatures 8 of them will generally outperform most of the higher CR but quantity creatures.
Yes! Tactically this spell offers so many options, both in combat and out.
I would 100% allow someone to conjure swarms. The balance comes from the CR, not the flavor of the swarm being made up of multiple animals.
You may but the designers were clear on intent.
DM willing it's a thing but RAW I would say it's not.
They do drastically effect the summon as typically beasts do not get b/p/s resistance like swarms do and ultimately I think that effects their CR when it comes to facing other creatures rather than PCs.
Ultimately will it effect the spell? It could depending on what you pick but ultimately higher numbers of creatures is pretty much always better. Even if you get CR 0 creatures 8 of them will generally outperform most of the higher CR but quantity creatures.
That resistance is built into the CR.
As you know, I don't give a hand about RAW as it applies to the table, only in theoretical discussions. And where do the designers "clear on intent"?
DM said it was cool and he liked my inventive use of "pest control" on the druids turned into flying animals. I honestly don't think he knew that was against the RAW, but I get the feeling he would really not care, wouldn't be the first time we House Ruled something. I'm gonna have to let him know later, but again he may think it's stupid and elect to ignore it. If Bjorn ever gets used again, that is.
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"I don't give a rat's f***ing ass how big it is, it can still bleed and I'm not dealing with this s*** a minute longer!!!" -Brass Khorne, Dragonborn Rogue/Fighter Battlemaster.
"Welcome to the Weeping Willow! Ale, rooms, or both?...Yes, dogs are fine, why does everyone ask that?" -Lucky Shot, Tabaxi Eldritch Knight and Innkeeper
"Greetings, I'm Sir Dexter of House Barkton. What do I do? I'm a Good Boy." -Dexter, Awakened Dog Rogue and knight of the realm.
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More thoughts on this spell beyond just simple damage.
Damage mitigation. Just as temporary hit points and healing hit points are good, so to is avoiding being hit at all. Anything from blood hawks to cows can absorb at least one enemy attack each. This is a huge benifit to this spell. It is an indirect party buff spell in this regard. Put your animals near enemies and hope they take a hit. Having the beasts just run up next to enemies and dodge is great as it will still get them some opportunity attacks while making them even harder to hit.
Even the most terrible (from a combat perspective) beast choices can use the help action. Frogs, snakes, hawks, all of them can give your fellow party members with -5/+10 feats a target rich environment. Sometimes the damage from a spell slot comes from enhancing the damage output from the entire party and not just the spell slot directly.
Yeah it's not bad don't get me wrong but to me it's still damage but with extra steps.
I'm in full agreement the spell has a ton of combat goodies:
Area control, damage mitigation, damage delivery, buffing
Hence why it's pretty much a must pick for rangers and a must use in any big fight.
It's also why I don't really like it overall ... It's just too good to justify using just about anything else
Too good to justify using just about anything else?!
Like divine smite, action surge, rage, sneak attack, or eldritch blast? Come on, man.
Lets not forget about possibly creatures with blindsight or other creative utility. I love having lots of giant badgers digging a tunnel.
There are also down sides to it that make it not an absolute combat choice just a good one.
Crowding.- I rarely see all 8 cr 1/4 creatures make an attack in a single turn beacause of crowding and positioning.
more creatures = Aoe weekness. enemies can have things like plant growth and web too. even extra attack is basically AOE for two creatures at a high enough level meaning all the extras disapear fast. Not to mention a single loss of concentration stops the spell (maybe that's part of the concentration obsession but it could ruin fun for some)
no class or ability centered build is going to cover every weakness. Its creates intreasting combat not bad ones. unless the dm and player just turn the game into a uninspired slugfest.
You know what I mean.....
Other ranger spells. Once you get Conjure Animals there is not really a better option most of the time.
Heck even upcasting it is generally better than the higher level ranger spells.
Yes. I do know what you mean. This comes online, conveniently, right about when rangers “fall behind” at level 11. So it seems like an appropriate and intentional fit for the class. I just don’t think your comment is helpful seeing as how all of the other classes that hit enemies with weapons have been doing the same thing since level 1 and will continue to do so their entire life. It’s a really great spell that only 2.25 classes have access to.
It's just sad they have to rely on it so heavily and imo the spell is not only overtuned but in my experience a nightmare to run with that many critters.
How do you run 8 creatures at your table(s)?
I (as a DM and player) have the beasts use average damage, which saves way more dice rolling and time then using the mass combat rules. The player also states the commands given and the DM moves the beasts, as they are tactical extensions of the caster, so they don’t move into hyper tactical positions, this also saves a lot of time. I like to use dice, so I have 8 pairs of matched d20s and something to roll in, that way I can make one huge roll in a contained area and get attacks or ability checks made and resolved very quickly, even with advantage or disadvantage. (There is also a great dice rolling command for Discord to roll multiple instances of the same thing I use when needed.) I also use color coordinated minis for the beasts or 8-sided dice to make tracking their hit points accurate and fast.
I think a lot of players take the approach and use the tools they use for running a single PC and try to use that to run 8, 4, 2, or even 1 extra creatures on the board, and that is a recipe for failure. Just as rogues sneak attacking, mages fireballing, and paladins divine smiting have handfuls of dice to run their class features, so to should druids, rangers, and a few bards to run their class features.
That sure helps but doesn't help with AoE effects, conditions, buffs, debuff, etc.
The higher you go HP is the least of your worries for tracking it's all the Frightened, Incapacitated, Blind, Deafened, etc that you need to roll to resolve each turn on top of HP, attack rolls, THP etc.
Ah. I see. Well that hasn’t come up for me in the level of extremes you’re talking about.
When it does, I use the tools provided by Owlbear Rodeo (or whichever VTT) for online (like status rings or markers), and I have little multicolored elastic hair ties for minis/dice that I use at a table (similar to Matt Mercer’s plastic drink bottle rings). It makes it so conditions has never really bogged me down to a point that it was a hassle for me or the table.
Even with such tools it makes the average turn for a ranger about twice as long as before....its just not a spell that is "quick combat friendly" . Now a lot of tables won't mind and I am fine with that. I have been at such tables. However I have also been at some tables where this process is NOT streamlined and it was pretty painful.
I won't begrudge anyone their own fun of course but I personally dislike minionmancy with more than 3 creatures.
Yeah. It can take a long time for someone without the experience or preparation to do it well. But that is the same with any class. Like when people file each attack separate, each da mage roll separate, and each rider roll separate. I could take 2 conjure animal turns in that amount of time.
It really doesn’t take that long. Certainly longer than a ranger only shooting a bow, but shorter than many other classes on their turn.
Conjure Animals got my party's bacon out of the fire on a very important occasion not that long ago while I was playing a temporary character in the campaign. My Dragonborn Fighter was out of commission and the party needed to get some work done in the nearby wilderness. Said wilderness is surrounded by a pretty cursed land and has some druids somewhere inside that are fairly isolationist, along with some very dangerous wildlife that even the normal monsters of the cursed city don't just wander in to f*** with unless they are baddest of the bad.
In steps my Dwarf Ranger (Beast Master, Primal Companion variant) was hired as a local guide who knows his way around the city in general and those woods in particular. Lead them around, make contact with the druids, get some critical rare plants and ingredients, get out. Small problem, we're not less than an hour inside the woods when the party gets to see the pecking order very graphically put on display, with a hunting party of druids and barbarians being the finale. This is a problem because you do NOT want them to be your first contact, they tend to be kinda extremely hostile to outsiders and will not leave you in any position to bargain. Time to sneak around.
That turned into a botched job, paladin even with Pass without a Trace is not sneaky. It turns into us running to break contact with them to avoid capture, but there's only so many ways to try and do that when the people chasing you literally live here and can move across the difficult terrain better than you. Or can fly, damn druids.
Solution? Conjure Animals. How? Quantity has a quality all of its own, but quality in quantity is a game changer. Four 1/2 CR rating beasts. Or in my decision, four armies. Swarm of Insects (wasp variant) called up and forced into the paths of pursuers, and I told the DM they are explicitly going to not just wildly attack our pursuers but aim for eyes, ears, noses, anything to ANNOY and force them to deal with them. And we keep running.
After that it's a bit of running, some spells from the casters to help move along the slower ones, and apparently alot of cursing from our pursuers while dealing with the wasps that never leave them alone. My DM decided that the wasps should also get Sting instead of just Bite so there was a lot of con saves happening on their end.. We all escape, mission continues. Good day all around.
So yes, Conjure Animals are a fantastic tool for escaping pursuit and annoying enemies. Better than looking for something to be the most devastating beast in a battle, use them for alternative strategies.
"I don't give a rat's f***ing ass how big it is, it can still bleed and I'm not dealing with this s*** a minute longer!!!" -Brass Khorne, Dragonborn Rogue/Fighter Battlemaster.
"Welcome to the Weeping Willow! Ale, rooms, or both?...Yes, dogs are fine, why does everyone ask that?" -Lucky Shot, Tabaxi Eldritch Knight and Innkeeper
"Greetings, I'm Sir Dexter of House Barkton. What do I do? I'm a Good Boy." -Dexter, Awakened Dog Rogue and knight of the realm.
That's pretty cool!
Unfortunately you can't conjure swarms RAW:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/129335/can-the-conjure-animals-spell-summon-swarms
But that is a pretty good demonstration of how the spell can do area control.... And you didn't even need to do 8 creatures!
Yes! Tactically this spell offers so many options, both in combat and out.
I would 100% allow someone to conjure swarms. The balance comes from the CR, not the flavor of the swarm being made up of multiple animals.
You may but the designers were clear on intent.
DM willing it's a thing but RAW I would say it's not.
They do drastically effect the summon as typically beasts do not get b/p/s resistance like swarms do and ultimately I think that effects their CR when it comes to facing other creatures rather than PCs.
Ultimately will it effect the spell? It could depending on what you pick but ultimately higher numbers of creatures is pretty much always better. Even if you get CR 0 creatures 8 of them will generally outperform most of the higher CR but quantity creatures.
That resistance is built into the CR.
As you know, I don't give a hand about RAW as it applies to the table, only in theoretical discussions. And where do the designers "clear on intent"?
DM said it was cool and he liked my inventive use of "pest control" on the druids turned into flying animals. I honestly don't think he knew that was against the RAW, but I get the feeling he would really not care, wouldn't be the first time we House Ruled something. I'm gonna have to let him know later, but again he may think it's stupid and elect to ignore it. If Bjorn ever gets used again, that is.
"I don't give a rat's f***ing ass how big it is, it can still bleed and I'm not dealing with this s*** a minute longer!!!" -Brass Khorne, Dragonborn Rogue/Fighter Battlemaster.
"Welcome to the Weeping Willow! Ale, rooms, or both?...Yes, dogs are fine, why does everyone ask that?" -Lucky Shot, Tabaxi Eldritch Knight and Innkeeper
"Greetings, I'm Sir Dexter of House Barkton. What do I do? I'm a Good Boy." -Dexter, Awakened Dog Rogue and knight of the realm.