Its also helpful for Greater Favored Enemy: "At 6th level, you are ready to hunt even deadlier game. Choose a type of greater favored enemy: aberrations, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fiends, or giants."
It is quite a wide ranging bonus to be applied to so many different monsters. I'm used to having it limited to picking 2 types of humanoids or something like that.
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Heaven doth with us as we with torches do, not light them for themselves.
+2 / +4 against damage on all humanoids is hardly OP. Seriously- Paladins convert spell slots to Smites and can get up to 5d8 on anything that moves. The notion that a small bonus on damage is breaking the game is absurd. Sorry. Any DM worth her salt should be able to cope with that without much aggravation (e.g. if the party’s ranger appears to be a little too hard then add an orc or two to the list of bogies.). People too worked up about fear of Ranger ‘overpoweredness’ ought to first play (or DM for) a Hexblade or Oath of Vengeance Paladin and then reconsider.
So, lets assume the +2/+4 damage is because the Master Hunter ranger has anatomical knowledge on where to best injure it's favored enemy. This knowledge also helps him/her track it's favored enemy. Now lets look at the 120 monsters on the 'humanoid' list. Some are redundant, so lets just say it's really only about 70 or 80 different humanoid types. Now, at first level, a brand new "Ranger" has mystical knowledge of at least 70 different forms of anatomy (some of which the ranger has NEVER even seen nor encountered in ONE level of adventuring or background knowledge). The Favored Enemy damage AND Natural Explorer tracking of said 70+ humanoids seems more like Divined Knowledge than anything that can be explained away as being a master hunter with "significant experience studying, tracking, hunting and even talking to a certain type of enemy..."
It's emersion breaking for me, as a DM, to try and imagine HOW any novice in ANY class can instantly KNOW this much about ANYTHING at first level. A ranger is a hunter, not a Zoologist. At any rate, the Ranger Revisited in our campaign Must have encountered or fought an enemy on the list before any benefits can be gained. And no multi-classing, because it is play-test material. It makes it right in my mind. Thanks for reading, anybody.
All fair points, Sprout. I don't have any problem with your approach (in fact I like it a lot) of saying that the ranger, whatever her level, should first encounter or fight an enemy on the list before any benefits can be gained. You could even go further and say she must fight it and defeat it in battle, and spend time over a rest examining the carcass etc.
Saying that, I do also believe that if an accomplished hunter knows the weak points of one type of humanoid, he also is likely to have the knowledge and skill necessary to apply that to another type. For example elves, humans, orcs and tabaxi are all going to have a similar internal organ configuration, muscle structure etc. Much less variation in the 'humanoid' category than in for instance beasts or monstrosities. But I get it, from a game management perspective it can seem a bit much. Again, I really like your approach of the fight/encounter as a prerequisite to unlock the benefit!
@SproutDM, that makes some sense to me as well. In fact, having Favored Terrain work that way could be a more narratively-relevant solution to the limitations placed on the current system. I think perhaps the challenge of utilizing it is that for games with strangers, such as AL, it becomes challenging for the DM to determine what experience a particular PC has had in the past, which is to say that part of the challenge of a balanced Ranger might be how a new revised Ranger could work well in both Adventurer's League and in more stable, long-term games.
The following "humanoids" are no more than a class or profession and hardly count as a separate race of creature, especially seeing as how each entry says it can be applied to "any race."
Abjurer, Acolyte, Apprentice Wizard, Archdruid, Archer, Archmage, Assassin, Bandit, Bandit Captain, Bard, Berserker, Blackguard, Champion, Commoner, Conjurer, Cult Fanatic, Cultist, Diviner, Druid, Enchanter, Evoker, Gladiator, Guard, Illusionist, Knight, Kraken Priest, Mage Martial Arts Adept, Master Thief, Necromancer, Noble, Priest, Scout, Spy, Swashbuckler, Thug, Transmuter, Tribal Warrior, Veteran, War Priest, Warlock of the Archfey, Warlock of the Fiend, Warlock of the Great Old One, and Warlord.
Next, we have redundant creatures, wherein the separate "humanoids" are actually of the same race, but with a different class or profession. The various races and their number of separate entries include:
1 Aarakocra
10 Goblinoid
1 Bullywug
1 Gnome
7 Shapechanger (5 Human)
4 Elf
1 Dwarf
2 Firenewt
5 Gnoll
4 Gith
1 Grimlock
3 Grung
6 Human (5 Shapechanger)
1 Kenku
5 Kobold
4 Kuo-Toa
3 Lizardfolk
1 Merfolk
9 Orc
2 Quaggoth
3 Sahuagin
1 Sea Spawn (Can arguably be of any race)
3 Thri-Kreen
1 Troglodyte
3 Xvart
2 Yuan-Ti
Altogether, that is 26 unique humanoid races.
If we include the missing playable races, Dragonborn, Half-Elf, Halfling, Half-Orc, Tiefling, Genasi, Goliath, Aasimar, Firbolg, Tabaxi, Triton, Tortle, Changeling, Kalashtar, Shifter, Warforged, Centaur, Loxodon, Minotaur, Simic Hybrid, Vedalken, and Verdan we are back up to 48. This is ignoring potential redundancies in the various "half" races and that some are in fact already typed as monstrosities or could arguably be considered elementals, fiends, etc. which would very much reduce this number.
Not sure how far we can reduce the beast type. Certainly the Ape and Giant Ape are redundant, but is there really much anatomical difference between all the various cats and tigers and panthers? But if we reduce them that far, can't we likewise reduce halfling, human, elf, dwarf, etc. into one subtype?
Altogether, I see no reason allowing a Ranger to simply pick Humanoid and ignoring the two subtypes. It is pretty easy to tell that beasts, monstrosities, fiends and others have just as much variety as the humanoid type.
Its also helpful for Greater Favored Enemy: "At 6th level, you are ready to hunt even deadlier game. Choose a type of greater favored enemy: aberrations, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fiends, or giants."
It is quite a wide ranging bonus to be applied to so many different monsters. I'm used to having it limited to picking 2 types of humanoids or something like that.
This might be a poor take on your immersion issue SproutDM, but Rangers are divinely touched the same way Paladins are. They are mystically linked to the land/wilds instead of an oath. They get magical abilities and cast spells based on the class, so attaching it to a divine knowledge is not that far of a stretch. If it was just a simple skilled benefit, then it should fall under a skill roll ability running off of animal handling, medicine or maybe a lore such as arcana/nature to gain the benefits. Having it based more on skill than the divine might make more mechanical sense anyway. Instead of Favored Enemy, you craft a Master Huntsman ability which rolls the appropriate skill to beat a DC based on rarity of the target to get the mechanical bonus. Putting the emphasis on the character's knowledge over the magic of nature powering the weird and limiting Favored Enemy mechanic.
Also, I have always loathed the Favored Enemy. It is the worst core ability in the game, IMO. Not only is it limiting, it doesn't make any sense story-wise, RP-wise, or in general. An entire character focused on killing/undermining/et. one specific race/kind of monster is a background trait, not the reason for a class to exist.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Agreed HChris When I played 2E we used the Skills & Powers option. I saved the points and took another skill instead of Favored Enemy. It never felt like something that needed to be specific to a Ranger and definitely nothing that need to be at the core of a class.
My problem with this isn't the emersion breaking. It's, if a ranger takes humanoids, then uses their 3rd level ability to use primevil awareness, then "Additionally, you can attune your senses to determine if any of your favored enemies lurk nearby. By spending 1 uninterrupted minute in concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell), you can sense whether any of your favored enemies are present within 5 miles of you. This feature reveals which of your favored enemies are present, their numbers, and the creatures’ general direction and distance (in miles) from you. If there are multiple groups of your favored enemies within range, you learn this information for each group." .... as a DM, this 'unlimited use power' that makes me have to constantly know the full inventory of all humanoids within 5 miles and their direction and numbers is untenable. It's simply impossible for me to manage that..especially in an open world campaign. Exhausting really.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What's the difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer? Class.
In that case the information can be as up to interpretation as a GM wants it to be. Since this feature doesn’t reveal the creatures’ location or number, it just would let them know they are in the area. As a GM, you have to know very little except where you want the party to end up.
Ranger sets down for a minute in their favorite terrain and reaches out to detect if there are humanoids near by. Gm informs them that there are indeed humanoids in the area. The player goes great, now for some skill checks and tracking begins.
I am not sure where this line comes from. I do not see it as part of the rangers abilities. They do get advantage to skill checks against them though.
"This feature reveals which of your favored enemies are present, their numbers, and the creatures’ general direction and distance (in miles) from you."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Isn't this thread about the revised ranger class from UA? Which includes "numbers and direction", which is the problem....for anyone who takes "humanoid" as a favored enemy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What's the difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer? Class.
Ah, I was thinking about Tasha's not the UA. Well, the UA is just that, play test material which needs vetting. If it comes across as OP, it probably is because it is just test material. It is intended to be modified and fleshed out. I completely agree that it is too invasive. Personally, I would adjust it to act as it was originally listed, but apply the UA to a specific target that the Ranger has already encountered and is following.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
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Under the UA Revised Ranger it states: "Choose a type of favored enemy: beasts, fey, humanoids, monstrosities, or undead."
The rules reference post today has a super handy monster list: http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/DnDMonsterLists.pdf
Its also helpful for Greater Favored Enemy: "At 6th level, you are ready to hunt even deadlier game. Choose a type of greater favored enemy: aberrations, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fiends, or giants."
It is quite a wide ranging bonus to be applied to so many different monsters. I'm used to having it limited to picking 2 types of humanoids or something like that.
Heaven doth with us as we with torches do, not light them for themselves.
I think it would be way too OP to have all those advantages with every group of humanoid. But only time will tell.
+2 / +4 against damage on all humanoids is hardly OP. Seriously- Paladins convert spell slots to Smites and can get up to 5d8 on anything that moves. The notion that a small bonus on damage is breaking the game is absurd. Sorry. Any DM worth her salt should be able to cope with that without much aggravation (e.g. if the party’s ranger appears to be a little too hard then add an orc or two to the list of bogies.). People too worked up about fear of Ranger ‘overpoweredness’ ought to first play (or DM for) a Hexblade or Oath of Vengeance Paladin and then reconsider.
---
Don't be Lawful Evil
#OpenDND
So, lets assume the +2/+4 damage is because the Master Hunter ranger has anatomical knowledge on where to best injure it's favored enemy. This knowledge also helps him/her track it's favored enemy. Now lets look at the 120 monsters on the 'humanoid' list. Some are redundant, so lets just say it's really only about 70 or 80 different humanoid types. Now, at first level, a brand new "Ranger" has mystical knowledge of at least 70 different forms of anatomy (some of which the ranger has NEVER even seen nor encountered in ONE level of adventuring or background knowledge). The Favored Enemy damage AND Natural Explorer tracking of said 70+ humanoids seems more like Divined Knowledge than anything that can be explained away as being a master hunter with "significant experience studying, tracking, hunting and even talking to a certain type of enemy..."
It's emersion breaking for me, as a DM, to try and imagine HOW any novice in ANY class can instantly KNOW this much about ANYTHING at first level. A ranger is a hunter, not a Zoologist. At any rate, the Ranger Revisited in our campaign Must have encountered or fought an enemy on the list before any benefits can be gained. And no multi-classing, because it is play-test material. It makes it right in my mind. Thanks for reading, anybody.
All fair points, Sprout. I don't have any problem with your approach (in fact I like it a lot) of saying that the ranger, whatever her level, should first encounter or fight an enemy on the list before any benefits can be gained. You could even go further and say she must fight it and defeat it in battle, and spend time over a rest examining the carcass etc.
Saying that, I do also believe that if an accomplished hunter knows the weak points of one type of humanoid, he also is likely to have the knowledge and skill necessary to apply that to another type. For example elves, humans, orcs and tabaxi are all going to have a similar internal organ configuration, muscle structure etc. Much less variation in the 'humanoid' category than in for instance beasts or monstrosities. But I get it, from a game management perspective it can seem a bit much. Again, I really like your approach of the fight/encounter as a prerequisite to unlock the benefit!
---
Don't be Lawful Evil
#OpenDND
@SproutDM, that makes some sense to me as well. In fact, having Favored Terrain work that way could be a more narratively-relevant solution to the limitations placed on the current system. I think perhaps the challenge of utilizing it is that for games with strangers, such as AL, it becomes challenging for the DM to determine what experience a particular PC has had in the past, which is to say that part of the challenge of a balanced Ranger might be how a new revised Ranger could work well in both Adventurer's League and in more stable, long-term games.
120 humanoids 108 beasts
The following "humanoids" are no more than a class or profession and hardly count as a separate race of creature, especially seeing as how each entry says it can be applied to "any race."
Abjurer, Acolyte, Apprentice Wizard, Archdruid, Archer, Archmage, Assassin, Bandit, Bandit Captain, Bard, Berserker, Blackguard, Champion, Commoner, Conjurer, Cult Fanatic, Cultist, Diviner, Druid, Enchanter, Evoker, Gladiator, Guard, Illusionist, Knight, Kraken Priest, Mage Martial Arts Adept, Master Thief, Necromancer, Noble, Priest, Scout, Spy, Swashbuckler, Thug, Transmuter, Tribal Warrior, Veteran, War Priest, Warlock of the Archfey, Warlock of the Fiend, Warlock of the Great Old One, and Warlord.
Next, we have redundant creatures, wherein the separate "humanoids" are actually of the same race, but with a different class or profession. The various races and their number of separate entries include:
Altogether, that is 26 unique humanoid races.
If we include the missing playable races, Dragonborn, Half-Elf, Halfling, Half-Orc, Tiefling, Genasi, Goliath, Aasimar, Firbolg, Tabaxi, Triton, Tortle, Changeling, Kalashtar, Shifter, Warforged, Centaur, Loxodon, Minotaur, Simic Hybrid, Vedalken, and Verdan we are back up to 48. This is ignoring potential redundancies in the various "half" races and that some are in fact already typed as monstrosities or could arguably be considered elementals, fiends, etc. which would very much reduce this number.
Not sure how far we can reduce the beast type. Certainly the Ape and Giant Ape are redundant, but is there really much anatomical difference between all the various cats and tigers and panthers? But if we reduce them that far, can't we likewise reduce halfling, human, elf, dwarf, etc. into one subtype?
Altogether, I see no reason allowing a Ranger to simply pick Humanoid and ignoring the two subtypes. It is pretty easy to tell that beasts, monstrosities, fiends and others have just as much variety as the humanoid type.
What up!!!!!
This might be a poor take on your immersion issue SproutDM, but Rangers are divinely touched the same way Paladins are. They are mystically linked to the land/wilds instead of an oath. They get magical abilities and cast spells based on the class, so attaching it to a divine knowledge is not that far of a stretch. If it was just a simple skilled benefit, then it should fall under a skill roll ability running off of animal handling, medicine or maybe a lore such as arcana/nature to gain the benefits. Having it based more on skill than the divine might make more mechanical sense anyway. Instead of Favored Enemy, you craft a Master Huntsman ability which rolls the appropriate skill to beat a DC based on rarity of the target to get the mechanical bonus. Putting the emphasis on the character's knowledge over the magic of nature powering the weird and limiting Favored Enemy mechanic.
Also, I have always loathed the Favored Enemy. It is the worst core ability in the game, IMO. Not only is it limiting, it doesn't make any sense story-wise, RP-wise, or in general. An entire character focused on killing/undermining/et. one specific race/kind of monster is a background trait, not the reason for a class to exist.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Agreed HChris
When I played 2E we used the Skills & Powers option. I saved the points and took another skill instead of Favored Enemy. It never felt like something that needed to be specific to a Ranger and definitely nothing that need to be at the core of a class.
My problem with this isn't the emersion breaking. It's, if a ranger takes humanoids, then uses their 3rd level ability to use primevil awareness, then "Additionally, you can attune your senses to determine if any of your favored enemies lurk nearby. By spending 1 uninterrupted minute in concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell), you can sense whether any of your favored enemies are present within 5 miles of you. This feature reveals which of your favored enemies are present, their numbers, and the creatures’ general direction and distance (in miles) from you.
If there are multiple groups of your favored enemies within range, you learn this information for each group." .... as a DM, this 'unlimited use power' that makes me have to constantly know the full inventory of all humanoids within 5 miles and their direction and numbers is untenable. It's simply impossible for me to manage that..especially in an open world campaign. Exhausting really.
What's the difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer?
Class.
In that case the information can be as up to interpretation as a GM wants it to be. Since this feature doesn’t reveal the creatures’ location or number, it just would let them know they are in the area. As a GM, you have to know very little except where you want the party to end up.
Ranger sets down for a minute in their favorite terrain and reaches out to detect if there are humanoids near by. Gm informs them that there are indeed humanoids in the area. The player goes great, now for some skill checks and tracking begins.
I am not sure where this line comes from. I do not see it as part of the rangers abilities. They do get advantage to skill checks against them though.
"This feature reveals which of your favored enemies are present, their numbers, and the creatures’ general direction and distance (in miles) from you."
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Isn't this thread about the revised ranger class from UA? Which includes "numbers and direction", which is the problem....for anyone who takes "humanoid" as a favored enemy.
What's the difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer?
Class.
Ah, I was thinking about Tasha's not the UA. Well, the UA is just that, play test material which needs vetting. If it comes across as OP, it probably is because it is just test material. It is intended to be modified and fleshed out. I completely agree that it is too invasive. Personally, I would adjust it to act as it was originally listed, but apply the UA to a specific target that the Ranger has already encountered and is following.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.