I have an elf rogue that stole a spell book and ran away from (pre level 1 background) interested in magic and thievery and my intention was arcane trickster. However, taking level 1 in wizard I get find familiar(advantage thanks to owl) shield, arcane recovery(so 3 spell slots per day), ritual magic and with elf have 4 cantrips. Generally attack with longbow, stay at range with paladin, barb and cleric up front, my role is skills but not face.
Hence, having lots of fun and feel pretty strong at 2nd level, particularly given how weak I felt at level 1(my dm likes to get a monster up close . I want more rogue and wizard and each levels benefits are exciting but I don’t know whether to go 2nd level mage to get the subclass(war mage gives an initiative boost plus saving throws and a bit of ac if I don’t use shield spell).
my questions
1. Given I have the spells I most wanted a level early and more from wizard(other than cool mage hand) , the relative benefits of arcane trickster have dropped, i may still go arcane but I now ask myself if other subclasses now more interesting and I hadn’t considered them at all. I am being more flexible eg scout looks useful if we end up wilderness(currently in dungeons), assassin with war mage initiative - not sure we will get surprise that often? what would you do?
2. Do I rush mage 2(which I will want for war mage benefits) or should I rush for level 4 rogue asi elven accuracy and get war mage after that?
We probably will rotate DMs/change characters at somewhere between 6 and 9(likeky closer to 6) so not that fussed about higher level abilities/spells(looks like I will likely get level 2 slots but not spells)
TO start with, as a first level wizard you only get 1 slot a day in arcane recovery. It is half of your wizard level rounded up.
1. Arcane Trickster is the best Rogue subclass and with a wizard multiclass it is even more attractive. I can't think of any build where I would want to go with something else. If your intelligence is high (16+), the only other build I would consider is assassin and only then if pairing with warmage. Pick up the alert feat plus dex plus intelligence will give you a super high intiative, which really works well with assassin. I still think Arcane Trickster is better though.
2. I would get wizard 2 and then Rogue 4. At point you can go whatever way you want, more Rogue, more wizard, more of both.
Warmage is really good, although I don't see you using the AC bonus much. If you go past wizard 4 you will always have shield which is better. If you go past Rogue 5 you will have uncanny dodge with is also usually better. The save bonus is nice.
Enchantment Wizard is really good and would be very thematic with a Rogue. I would want to get to level 6 to really make it work well.
Thanks for responding. On arcane recovery I know it’s 1, my 3 per day is the 2 from class and 1 from arcane recovery.
The problem I was having with arcane trickster, if I levelled as I was expecting RWRRRW to rush for the ASI at 5, is at level 4/5 it gave me more utility from more spells to use but less marginal utility than usual as I had the “best” spells already and just 1 additional spell slot . Hence if I went rogue heavy the subclass isn’t helping me that much until 6, hence it’s utility of the extra known spells(and a fourth 1st level spell which again is lower utility than usual) vs other class benefits from level 4.
I think you going RWWRRR which gives me double the spell slots(and the more powerful slots) at 5 and the war mage benefits from 3 is better - flexibilitywise I could also keep going wizard from here levels 4-6 and get to 3rd level spells before we finish. My ASI is late, but that is the sacrifice. So the level excitement hasn’t got gaps and is:-
3rd lvl war mage(initiative plus saves) 4th cunning action, 5th extra d6 sneak attack, lots of spells inc mage hand and 2nd level slots 6th ASI - possibly elven accuracy or just asi at this point.
On enchantment school she is on the run from elves with immunity to charm so doesn’t fit well for her, I saw more of a fit with abjuration(she wants protection with a low constitution - role play choice and loads of fun for the dm/concentration checks) but the warmages benefits fit better and are a great dip(and can fit rp wise). Divination and bladesinger also appealed for a dip but don’t fit the character.
Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action.
? Did you miss your post? I said 4th level for cunning action as I would do rogue,wizard,wizard,rogue if I go for war mage first.
My thoughts on this are a few levels of rogue don't help a wizard much but a level or two of wizard can help an arcane trickster so I would go with a rogue with a wizard dip rather than vice versa. It also seems to match your character concept better
If you go You will have a lot of things wanting to use. For Rogues attacks of opportunity are great as you get to sneak attacks twice a round and uncanny dodge is great when you take a heavy hit or one that will knock you unconcious. On top of this you will have shield, and arcane deflection. This make me wonder whether it is worth a second evel of wizard and if so whether to go war magic.
If you were using a hand crossbow or going melee I would have thought bladesinger would be a best wizard option, it doesn't help with saves (other than con saves for concentration) but your AC under blade song should be at least as good as you could get with arcane deflection, the uses per daty scales with proficiency bonus so this gets more powerful as you level up. It might be worth considering switch to a hand crossbow for this.
Sticking with long bow divination could be an option portent is very flexible and can be used when a dice roll absulutely must go your way. Whether that is the paladin is about to make a critical persuasion check or the cleric is casting a save or suck spell (when you hit level 7 banish is a classic for this) or a PC is about to die of the next attack hits.
Having said that I would probably be inclined to stick with a single level of wizard so you don't fall far behind on your sneak attack damage and other rogue features.
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I have an elf rogue that stole a spell book and ran away from (pre level 1 background) interested in magic and thievery and my intention was arcane trickster. However, taking level 1 in wizard I get find familiar(advantage thanks to owl) shield, arcane recovery(so 3 spell slots per day), ritual magic and with elf have 4 cantrips. Generally attack with longbow, stay at range with paladin, barb and cleric up front, my role is skills but not face.
Hence, having lots of fun and feel pretty strong at 2nd level, particularly given how weak I felt at level 1(my dm likes to get a monster up close . I want more rogue and wizard and each levels benefits are exciting but I don’t know whether to go 2nd level mage to get the subclass(war mage gives an initiative boost plus saving throws and a bit of ac if I don’t use shield spell).
my questions
1. Given I have the spells I most wanted a level early and more from wizard(other than cool mage hand) , the relative benefits of arcane trickster have dropped, i may still go arcane but I now ask myself if other subclasses now more interesting and I hadn’t considered them at all. I am being more flexible eg scout looks useful if we end up wilderness(currently in dungeons), assassin with war mage initiative - not sure we will get surprise that often? what would you do?
2. Do I rush mage 2(which I will want for war mage benefits) or should I rush for level 4 rogue asi elven accuracy and get war mage after that?
We probably will rotate DMs/change characters at somewhere between 6 and 9(likeky closer to 6) so not that fussed about higher level abilities/spells(looks like I will likely get level 2 slots but not spells)
Thanks for responding. On arcane recovery I know it’s 1, my 3 per day is the 2 from class and 1 from arcane recovery.
The problem I was having with arcane trickster, if I levelled as I was expecting RWRRRW to rush for the ASI at 5, is at level 4/5 it gave me more utility from more spells to use but less marginal utility than usual as I had the “best” spells already and just 1 additional spell slot . Hence if I went rogue heavy the subclass isn’t helping me that much until 6, hence it’s utility of the extra known spells(and a fourth 1st level spell which again is lower utility than usual) vs other class benefits from level 4.
I think you going RWWRRR which gives me double the spell slots(and the more powerful slots) at 5 and the war mage benefits from 3 is better - flexibilitywise I could also keep going wizard from here levels 4-6 and get to 3rd level spells before we finish. My ASI is late, but that is the sacrifice. So the level excitement hasn’t got gaps and is:-
3rd lvl war mage(initiative plus saves) 4th cunning action, 5th extra d6 sneak attack, lots of spells inc mage hand and 2nd level slots 6th ASI - possibly elven accuracy or just asi at this point.
On enchantment school she is on the run from elves with immunity to charm so doesn’t fit well for her, I saw more of a fit with abjuration(she wants protection with a low constitution - role play choice and loads of fun for the dm/concentration checks) but the warmages benefits fit better and are a great dip(and can fit rp wise). Divination and bladesinger also appealed for a dip but don’t fit the character.
? Did you miss your post? I said 4th level for cunning action as I would do rogue,wizard,wizard,rogue if I go for war mage first.
My thoughts on this are a few levels of rogue don't help a wizard much but a level or two of wizard can help an arcane trickster so I would go with a rogue with a wizard dip rather than vice versa. It also seems to match your character concept better
If you go You will have a lot of things wanting to use. For Rogues attacks of opportunity are great as you get to sneak attacks twice a round and uncanny dodge is great when you take a heavy hit or one that will knock you unconcious. On top of this you will have shield, and arcane deflection. This make me wonder whether it is worth a second evel of wizard and if so whether to go war magic.
If you were using a hand crossbow or going melee I would have thought bladesinger would be a best wizard option, it doesn't help with saves (other than con saves for concentration) but your AC under blade song should be at least as good as you could get with arcane deflection, the uses per daty scales with proficiency bonus so this gets more powerful as you level up. It might be worth considering switch to a hand crossbow for this.
Sticking with long bow divination could be an option portent is very flexible and can be used when a dice roll absulutely must go your way. Whether that is the paladin is about to make a critical persuasion check or the cleric is casting a save or suck spell (when you hit level 7 banish is a classic for this) or a PC is about to die of the next attack hits.
Having said that I would probably be inclined to stick with a single level of wizard so you don't fall far behind on your sneak attack damage and other rogue features.