Rogues Proposed Change or subclass (Thug/Enforcer) : (adding longswords and light weapons to Sneak Attack)
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a longsword, light, finesse or a ranged weapon.
Adding light weapons and longswords only adds the following weapons to the list: (Longsword, Club, Handaxe, Light Hammer, Sickle). This also opens up the Rogue class to Strength based Rogues (Thugs, Enforcers, Killers) and adds the bludgeoning damage type.
Anybody know how we can make this happen? I would like to give Rogues a reason to carry that longsword. I have not seen a longsword-wielding rogue.
Give them medium armour and shields, if you are trying to enable strength then you need to make AC rely on Dex less. If you don't do this then you basically are requiring a dip into an actual martial class.
That's only one feature though and most rogues get 5 features, so lets try and brainstorm some directions to take this.
Make it into some sort of combat control supporting type, where you are doing some sort of status effect save on enemies when you sneak attack them. This could include stuff like pushing/knocking down, and their other features would exemplify this physicality and "dirty fighting", maybe make them into a sort of discount battlemaster with manuevers that you activate when you sneak attack. Could give them a late extra attack at level 9 to make them even more of a mixed fighter/rogue archetype. Not sure for the 13/17 features, probably just some nice bonuses to what you're doing.
Another direction would be to look somewhat more to the monk and it's stunning strike, and have the thug inflict some status condition saves when it hits you with a sneak attack. Stuff like blinded, frightened, or maybe even stunned. There would probably need to be some sort of resource cost working with this stuff, maybe taking after the soul knife's psi dice where it's double your proficiency bonus. The features would probably be stuff like inflicting these conditions, and then maybe also getting some sort of special bonus for them.
Third idea that comes to mind is to just make them into some sort of more typical martial character with a lot of passive bonuses and changes to the playstyle. Stuff like maybe getting to opportunity attack an enemy entering your reach if you spend a bonus action taking a stance, a fighting style, eventual extra attack, a bonus for defeating enemies, that sort of thing.
Rogues Proposed Change or subclass (Thug/Enforcer) : (adding longswords and light weapons to Sneak Attack)
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a longsword, light, finesse or a ranged weapon.
Adding light weapons and longswords only adds the following weapons to the list: (Longsword, Club, Handaxe, Light Hammer, Sickle). This also opens up the Rogue class to Strength based Rogues (Thugs, Enforcers, Killers) and adds the bludgeoning damage type.
Anybody know how we can make this happen? I would like to give Rogues a reason to carry that longsword. I have not seen a longsword-wielding rogue.
Thoughts?
I think this would be awesome on a Rogue subclass. Would really encourage a strength build. Thematically I really like club more than longsword, but obviously longsword is the best mechancially.
Essentially just remove the wording for a' finesse or ranged weapon' and replace it with 'any weapon you have proficiency in.'
I do not see this as a bad or game changing change. Thinking about it I do not see the need of the finesse or ranged weapon limitations.
You would still need to gain advantage to make the sneak attack.
I do think this would cause problems with the PAM feat, and it would really amp damage on heavy weapon fighters who take a 1-2 level Rogue dip (which is pretty common in my games). Under the current rules a figther can dip Rogue for the expertise, extra proficiencies, and cunning action but to get the 1d6 sneak he needs to use an inferior weapon. Putting up a Fighter getting extra damage from things like maneuvers , fighting style or giants might extra damage and then adding a 1d6 on top of that from a 1-2 level Rogue dip is a lot. It really nerfs a traditional Rogue the most as such a fighter will always outclass a Rogue in combat.
I also do not like needing to be proficient in a weapon to get sneak attack. I have played Rogues that periodically used heavy crossbows and whips they were not proficient in. RAW any Rogue can get sneak attack with those weapons or any ranged or finesse weapon regardless of proficiency.
I do like limiting it to thematic weapons listed above and doing it with a subclass instead of anything you are proficient in.
If a rogue chooses to be more powerful into Strenght instead of Dexterity, then tell me how he/she gonna use the thieves' tools to open locked doors or chests ???? The more musculated are your hands the less dexterous are your abilities to sneakily pickpocketting or disable traps. Obviously you gonna be a Fighter, and at the same time, lacking in abilities the usual rogues are expertise in.
I prefer being an sneaky ""snake"" to my enemies or else, who gonna do this job, huh ????
I don't say you have to run your character with an 8 on strenght, but you can still be a Fighter-alike just lefting the STR score at 13. It gonna grant you a fair use on swordies/axes/maces and still if you keep at least a DEX around 17, it gonna grant you being ""undetected"" by some undesired targets.
If a rogue chooses to be more powerful into Strenght instead of Dexterity, then tell me how he/she gonna use the thieves' tools to open locked doors or chests ???? The more musculated are your hands the less dexterous are your abilities to sneakily pickpocketting or disable traps. Obviously you gonna be a Fighter, and at the same time, lacking in abilities the usual rogues are expertise in.
I prefer being an sneaky ""snake"" to my enemies or else, who gonna do this job, huh ????
I don't say you have to run your character with an 8 on strenght, but you can still be a Fighter-alike just lefting the STR score at 13. It gonna grant you a fair use on swordies/axes/maces and still if you keep at least a DEX around 17, it gonna grant you being ""undetected"" by some undesired targets.
This is pretty obviously a rogue who would be focused on less stealthy rogue aspects. Look to the more mental stuff like social checks etc. I'll also toss out that if you toss an expertise into thieves tools you cover disabling traps pretty effectively still, and a medium armour makes you still want a 14 in Dex.
Way I see it is that if you picked something like this then you'd be wanting to be a more "dirty fighter" or a "teamwork fighter" than the standard fighter allows, though you shouldn't discount how durable they get with the ability to halve big hits from enemies or how useful it is to actually be good at making skill checks and not just combat rolls.
If a rogue chooses to be more powerful into Strenght instead of Dexterity, then tell me how he/she gonna use the thieves' tools to open locked doors or chests ???? The more musculated are your hands the less dexterous are your abilities to sneakily pickpocketting or disable traps. Obviously you gonna be a Fighter, and at the same time, lacking in abilities the usual rogues are expertise in.
Why would his ability in picklocks be any different than if he took a duel class rogue/fighter?
He would have the same strength and the ability to use other weapons with their strength damage added.
Why would having and using a high strength remove his ability to use his thieves tools? It has nothing to do with his dexterity.
Come to think of it. If you have a strength limit for what armor you could use why not have a strength limit for the weapons you could use?
If a rogue chooses to be more powerful into Strenght instead of Dexterity, then tell me how he/she gonna use the thieves' tools to open locked doors or chests ???? The more musculated are your hands the less dexterous are your abilities to sneakily pickpocketting or disable traps. Obviously you gonna be a Fighter, and at the same time, lacking in abilities the usual rogues are expertise in.
First off you can take expertise which will give you double your PB, assuming an 8 dex this means a +3 to start which is certainly servicible, this scales to +5 at 5th level, +7 at 9th level and a minimum roll of 17 at 11th level, which increases to 19 at 13th level. You will be good at these things to start and really good by tier 3. You get 2 expertiseslots at 1st level and another 2 at 6th, so you can have expertise in all of these (stealth, slight of hand and thieves tools) and still have one slot left over.
Even with just regular proficiency you will be servicible in tier 2 where the core of the game happens and good once reliable talent comes online.
Finally I will note I rarely take expertise in these with a Rogue (sometimes stealth at level 6, but not usually). Usually I am taking expertise in athletics, investigation, perception and a charisma skill.
I prefer being an sneaky ""snake"" to my enemies or else, who gonna do this job, huh ????
Well to start with Rogues are not the best at this. Rangers are the best and Shadow Monks are the second best. Either of these are generally better than a Rogue, even one with a 20 dex and expertise in stealth. Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards and Hexblades can all do it pretty well too if they pick up stealth proficiency. So that is about half the classes that can do this job. The Wizard can double down by having a good intelligence and investigation to avoid those traps while doing it.
Another couple points for strength though -
1. sneaking is one "traditional" Rogue thing, but climbing is also one. You can run an 8 strength with Athletics expertise and be decent at climbing, but finding others in the party who can climb is generally more difficult than finding others who can sneak.
2. Grappling,shoving and controling enemies - Rogues who have a good strength and expertise in Athletics dominate here. Grappling in particular pairs really well with cunning action-dash. Get a 16 strength and expertise and you are pushing a +11 at 5th level. That is good enough to grapple Ogres with a serious advantage. Now this is not an every fight ply because you give up sneak attack to do it and you are generally squishy. But drag the tough to the cliff and then push him off ..... or threaten to push him off leveraging your intimidation expertise as you just put this guy in a judo hold.
I don't say you have to run your character with an 8 on strenght, but you can still be a Fighter-alike just lefting the STR score at 13. It gonna grant you a fair use on swordies/axes/maces and still if you keep at least a DEX around 17, it gonna grant you being ""undetected"" by some undesired targets.
Axes, maces and swords other than short swords are not finesse and are not usable with sneak attack. It is tough to be both undetected an using a melee weapon of any kind as you will provoke an opportunity attack if you do not disengage and if you do disengage and attack then you can't also hide.
I would also go with the Club or Hammer. I brought up the Longsword because Rogues are proficient in them, which I always thought was funny. I never see a rogue carrying that Longsword.
I was looking at playstyle and having a Rogue (Thug/Enforcer) as an untrained dirty fighter.
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Rogues Proposed Change or subclass (Thug/Enforcer) : (adding longswords and light weapons to Sneak Attack)
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a longsword, light, finesse or a ranged weapon.
Adding light weapons and longswords only adds the following weapons to the list: (Longsword, Club, Handaxe, Light Hammer, Sickle). This also opens up the Rogue class to Strength based Rogues (Thugs, Enforcers, Killers) and adds the bludgeoning damage type.
Anybody know how we can make this happen? I would like to give Rogues a reason to carry that longsword. I have not seen a longsword-wielding rogue.
Thoughts?
Give them medium armour and shields, if you are trying to enable strength then you need to make AC rely on Dex less. If you don't do this then you basically are requiring a dip into an actual martial class.
That's only one feature though and most rogues get 5 features, so lets try and brainstorm some directions to take this.
Make it into some sort of combat control supporting type, where you are doing some sort of status effect save on enemies when you sneak attack them. This could include stuff like pushing/knocking down, and their other features would exemplify this physicality and "dirty fighting", maybe make them into a sort of discount battlemaster with manuevers that you activate when you sneak attack. Could give them a late extra attack at level 9 to make them even more of a mixed fighter/rogue archetype. Not sure for the 13/17 features, probably just some nice bonuses to what you're doing.
Another direction would be to look somewhat more to the monk and it's stunning strike, and have the thug inflict some status condition saves when it hits you with a sneak attack. Stuff like blinded, frightened, or maybe even stunned. There would probably need to be some sort of resource cost working with this stuff, maybe taking after the soul knife's psi dice where it's double your proficiency bonus. The features would probably be stuff like inflicting these conditions, and then maybe also getting some sort of special bonus for them.
Third idea that comes to mind is to just make them into some sort of more typical martial character with a lot of passive bonuses and changes to the playstyle. Stuff like maybe getting to opportunity attack an enemy entering your reach if you spend a bonus action taking a stance, a fighting style, eventual extra attack, a bonus for defeating enemies, that sort of thing.
I think this would be awesome on a Rogue subclass. Would really encourage a strength build. Thematically I really like club more than longsword, but obviously longsword is the best mechancially.
Essentially just remove the wording for a' finesse or ranged weapon' and replace it with 'any weapon you have proficiency in.'
I do not see this as a bad or game changing change. Thinking about it I do not see the need of the finesse or ranged weapon limitations.
You would still need to gain advantage to make the sneak attack.
I do think this would cause problems with the PAM feat, and it would really amp damage on heavy weapon fighters who take a 1-2 level Rogue dip (which is pretty common in my games). Under the current rules a figther can dip Rogue for the expertise, extra proficiencies, and cunning action but to get the 1d6 sneak he needs to use an inferior weapon. Putting up a Fighter getting extra damage from things like maneuvers , fighting style or giants might extra damage and then adding a 1d6 on top of that from a 1-2 level Rogue dip is a lot. It really nerfs a traditional Rogue the most as such a fighter will always outclass a Rogue in combat.
I also do not like needing to be proficient in a weapon to get sneak attack. I have played Rogues that periodically used heavy crossbows and whips they were not proficient in. RAW any Rogue can get sneak attack with those weapons or any ranged or finesse weapon regardless of proficiency.
I do like limiting it to thematic weapons listed above and doing it with a subclass instead of anything you are proficient in.
If a rogue chooses to be more powerful into Strenght instead of Dexterity, then tell me how he/she gonna use the thieves' tools to open locked doors or chests ???? The more musculated are your hands the less dexterous are your abilities to sneakily pickpocketting or disable traps. Obviously you gonna be a Fighter, and at the same time, lacking in abilities the usual rogues are expertise in.
I prefer being an sneaky ""snake"" to my enemies or else, who gonna do this job, huh ????
I don't say you have to run your character with an 8 on strenght, but you can still be a Fighter-alike just lefting the STR score at 13. It gonna grant you a fair use on swordies/axes/maces and still if you keep at least a DEX around 17, it gonna grant you being ""undetected"" by some undesired targets.
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
This is pretty obviously a rogue who would be focused on less stealthy rogue aspects. Look to the more mental stuff like social checks etc. I'll also toss out that if you toss an expertise into thieves tools you cover disabling traps pretty effectively still, and a medium armour makes you still want a 14 in Dex.
Way I see it is that if you picked something like this then you'd be wanting to be a more "dirty fighter" or a "teamwork fighter" than the standard fighter allows, though you shouldn't discount how durable they get with the ability to halve big hits from enemies or how useful it is to actually be good at making skill checks and not just combat rolls.
Why would his ability in picklocks be any different than if he took a duel class rogue/fighter?
He would have the same strength and the ability to use other weapons with their strength damage added.
Why would having and using a high strength remove his ability to use his thieves tools? It has nothing to do with his dexterity.
Come to think of it. If you have a strength limit for what armor you could use why not have a strength limit for the weapons you could use?
First off you can take expertise which will give you double your PB, assuming an 8 dex this means a +3 to start which is certainly servicible, this scales to +5 at 5th level, +7 at 9th level and a minimum roll of 17 at 11th level, which increases to 19 at 13th level. You will be good at these things to start and really good by tier 3. You get 2 expertiseslots at 1st level and another 2 at 6th, so you can have expertise in all of these (stealth, slight of hand and thieves tools) and still have one slot left over.
Even with just regular proficiency you will be servicible in tier 2 where the core of the game happens and good once reliable talent comes online.
Finally I will note I rarely take expertise in these with a Rogue (sometimes stealth at level 6, but not usually). Usually I am taking expertise in athletics, investigation, perception and a charisma skill.
Well to start with Rogues are not the best at this. Rangers are the best and Shadow Monks are the second best. Either of these are generally better than a Rogue, even one with a 20 dex and expertise in stealth. Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards and Hexblades can all do it pretty well too if they pick up stealth proficiency. So that is about half the classes that can do this job. The Wizard can double down by having a good intelligence and investigation to avoid those traps while doing it.
Another couple points for strength though -
1. sneaking is one "traditional" Rogue thing, but climbing is also one. You can run an 8 strength with Athletics expertise and be decent at climbing, but finding others in the party who can climb is generally more difficult than finding others who can sneak.
2. Grappling,shoving and controling enemies - Rogues who have a good strength and expertise in Athletics dominate here. Grappling in particular pairs really well with cunning action-dash. Get a 16 strength and expertise and you are pushing a +11 at 5th level. That is good enough to grapple Ogres with a serious advantage. Now this is not an every fight ply because you give up sneak attack to do it and you are generally squishy. But drag the tough to the cliff and then push him off ..... or threaten to push him off leveraging your intimidation expertise as you just put this guy in a judo hold.
Axes, maces and swords other than short swords are not finesse and are not usable with sneak attack. It is tough to be both undetected an using a melee weapon of any kind as you will provoke an opportunity attack if you do not disengage and if you do disengage and attack then you can't also hide.
I would also go with the Club or Hammer. I brought up the Longsword because Rogues are proficient in them, which I always thought was funny. I never see a rogue carrying that Longsword.
I was looking at playstyle and having a Rogue (Thug/Enforcer) as an untrained dirty fighter.