Like the title said, I usually don't play Rogue and I'm just getting into it, but I almost spilled my coffee when I realized that Rogues can basically cast 3 spells per turn: 1 per action, 1 per bonus action, and 1 per reaction.
And oh boy this is SO BUSTED. There are so many combinations, and I'm really excited to try them :) Command: Flee => Dissonant Whispers. Fireball => Hypnotic Pattern. Pyrotechnics: Smoke => Wall of Force. Scatter => Cone of Cold / Spirit Guardian / any AoE spell. Plant Growth => Web. Beacon of Hope => Mass Healing Word.
You’ve learned how to maximize use of magic items, granting you the following benefits.
Attunement. You can attune to up to four magic items at once.
Charges. Whenever you use a magic item property that expends charges, roll 1d6. On a roll of 6, you use the property without expending the charges.
Scrolls. You can use any Spell Scroll, using Intelligence as your spellcasting ability for the spell. If the spell is a cantrip or a level 1 spell, you can cast it reliably. If the scroll contains a higher-level spell, you must first succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check (DC 10 plus the spell’s level). On a successful check, you cast the spell from the scroll. On a failed check, the scroll disintegrates.
Also, if I'm playing this, I'm buying a Headband of Intellect, and I take proficiency in Arcana (I'm thinking through the Skilled Origin Feat). With Reliable Talent, I'll never fail that Arcana check :D
Command: Flee => Dissonant Whispers. 100gp Fireball => Hypnotic Pattern. 600 gp Pyrotechnics: Smoke => Wall of Force. 3200 gp Scatter => Cone of Cold / Spirit Guardian / any AoE spell. 20,000+gp Plant Growth => Web. 500gp Beacon of Hope => Mass Healing Word. 600gp
And that is assuming you can come across them. If a party member crafts them 1/2 that.
now while it will frequently require attunement wands/staves can come in handy here. as like a wand of fireballs does not go away when used, so its increased cost of 4,000 you can get a lot of value out of, even if its just 2 fireballs in a round a couple fights a day.
Beyond the money issue (which is significant in a non-Monty Haul campaign), you run afoul of the problem that storebought scrolls have relatively low hit/DC. So anything that isn't buff/utility tends not to be all that worthwhile in scroll form. You can get around this problem by having a party member scribe the scrolls (which is still expensive). However, then you've got to ask yourself whether you're better casting as a Bonus Action or forcing Disadvantage on the save via Arcane Trickster. For most offensive spells, the latter is normally superior because Rogues already have an overloaded Bonus Action.
Thieves at level 13 use their spellcasting ability modifiers for spell scrolls:
Scrolls. You can use any Spell Scroll, using Intelligence as your spellcasting ability for the spell. If the spell is a cantrip or a level 1 spell, you can cast it reliably. If the scroll contains a higher-level spell, you must first succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check (DC 10 plus the spell’s level). On a successful check, you cast the spell from the scroll. On a failed check, the scroll disintegrates.
And with expertise in Arcana, you'll never fail the check.
The "using intelligence as your spellcasting ability" phrase only means that if the spell description contains some feature reliant on spellcasting ability (such as Dispel Magic), the Rogue's Intelligence would be used. Since spell scrolls don't use spellcasting ability to calculate hit/DC (they're fixed upon creation of the spell scroll), your spellcasting ability doesn't matter for their hit/DC.
Ordinarily, the only way you can use a Scroll is if it appears on your spell list - which tells you what the spellcasting ability associated with that spell will be. However, you still use the default hit/DC regardless of what your own personal stat will be. Nothing about the Thief's Scroll Use ability changes this rule - it merely identifies what spellcasting ability you should use if it's called upon (which it normally isn't) since Thief Rogues aren't using Scrolls of spells that appear on their list.
3 things 90% of DND players can agree on is that 1.ARTIFICERS SHOULD NOT HAVE SPELL SLOTS,2.beastmaster ranger always has,still does,and always will SUCK,and 3.every rogue no matter the subclass is broken on its own and even more busted if you multiclass into fighter or legit just a full caster like sorceror or warlock,
side note if you take 2 levels in fighter and ACTION SURGE and then use ANOTHER magic scroll for 4 MAGIC ATTACKS in one turn if you didn't realize
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uhhhh
Trans demigurl
pronouns she/they but just call me insults(I find it humorous)
I like spaghetti and all things lovecraftian,plus homebrew is my hobby
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what?unless I'm stupid which I'm not denying I'm pretty sure it's the use magic item action.every source I've seen says it it
“Use Magic Item” is not a thing in the 2024 rules. Casting a spell with a one-action casting time uses a Magic action even if it’s cast from an item.
...its called the use action. Y'know, the action you take to use an object? Look in your PHB, buddy.
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I'm just your everyday dungeon master. Ignore that jar full of souls. And those bones in the corner are just props, don't worry. I'm definitely NOT a lich. Definitely.
Yes, I like beholders. Yes, I curated an exquisite personality for commoner #2864. Yes, my catchphrase is "are you sure?"
The "using intelligence as your spellcasting ability" phrase only means that if the spell description contains some feature reliant on spellcasting ability (such as Dispel Magic), the Rogue's Intelligence would be used. Since spell scrolls don't use spellcasting ability to calculate hit/DC (they're fixed upon creation of the spell scroll), your spellcasting ability doesn't matter for their hit/DC.
Ordinarily, the only way you can use a Scroll is if it appears on your spell list - which tells you what the spellcasting ability associated with that spell will be. However, you still use the default hit/DC regardless of what your own personal stat will be. Nothing about the Thief's Scroll Use ability changes this rule - it merely identifies what spellcasting ability you should use if it's called upon (which it normally isn't) since Thief Rogues aren't using Scrolls of spells that appear on their list.
Honestly? I'm inclined to agree with this logic, especially because:
Spell scrolls' save DC's and spell attack bonuses reflect the abilities of the person who craft them, and I don't know why Thief Rogues would get special treatment on this front.
The 2024 rules are pretty deliberately explicit about what they do and don't intend, and it would have said "the spell save DC and spell attack of the scroll is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your intelligence modifier" if that was the intent.
The 2014 Thief, which we can at least use to get a peek into the heads of the developers, doesn't mention anything about adjusting the spell DC's of scrolls. So it's safe to assume their intention in adding the language about Intelligence being your spellcasting ability was intended to clarify any confusion around spells like Dispel Magic rather than to allow you to substitute the scroll's spell DC for your own.
In the rules on "Spells Cast From Items," it states: "A magic item may require the user to use their own spellcasting ability when casting a spell from the item. If the user has more than one spellcasting ability, the user chooses which one to use with the item. If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies." Safe to assume, then, that the Thief ability is intended to allow the Thief to have some spellcasting ability modifier, instead of none.
That said, spell scrolls' save DC's and spell attack bonuses reflect the abilities of its crafter. So, if you can find a high-level spell crafter to make your scrolls, or if you can convince the party caster to surrender a considerable amount of their personal time to make spells for you, then you can go nuts. And, as always, if you and your DM interpret the rules differently, then it's a game, do what you want, have fun.
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Like the title said, I usually don't play Rogue and I'm just getting into it, but I almost spilled my coffee when I realized that Rogues can basically cast 3 spells per turn: 1 per action, 1 per bonus action, and 1 per reaction.
And oh boy this is SO BUSTED. There are so many combinations, and I'm really excited to try them :)
Command: Flee => Dissonant Whispers.
Fireball => Hypnotic Pattern.
Pyrotechnics: Smoke => Wall of Force.
Scatter => Cone of Cold / Spirit Guardian / any AoE spell.
Plant Growth => Web.
Beacon of Hope => Mass Healing Word.
There are so many! :D
Nah man, Thieves are OP :D
Also, if I'm playing this, I'm buying a Headband of Intellect, and I take proficiency in Arcana (I'm thinking through the Skilled Origin Feat). With Reliable Talent, I'll never fail that Arcana check :D
Aren’t you still going to run into the general rule for spellcasting of only one leveled spell per turn?
Yes. I realized that about 10 minutes after I posted this. But thanks for the correction.
Not saying you can't but.
Command: Flee => Dissonant Whispers. 100gp
Fireball => Hypnotic Pattern. 600 gp
Pyrotechnics: Smoke => Wall of Force. 3200 gp
Scatter => Cone of Cold / Spirit Guardian / any AoE spell. 20,000+gp
Plant Growth => Web. 500gp
Beacon of Hope => Mass Healing Word. 600gp
And that is assuming you can come across them. If a party member crafts them 1/2 that.
now while it will frequently require attunement wands/staves can come in handy here. as like a wand of fireballs does not go away when used, so its increased cost of 4,000 you can get a lot of value out of, even if its just 2 fireballs in a round a couple fights a day.
If you're level 13, money rarely is a problem :)
If you say so. But that kind of money has been a problem in almost every 5e campaign I have seen. But every table is different.
Beyond the money issue (which is significant in a non-Monty Haul campaign), you run afoul of the problem that storebought scrolls have relatively low hit/DC. So anything that isn't buff/utility tends not to be all that worthwhile in scroll form. You can get around this problem by having a party member scribe the scrolls (which is still expensive). However, then you've got to ask yourself whether you're better casting as a Bonus Action or forcing Disadvantage on the save via Arcane Trickster. For most offensive spells, the latter is normally superior because Rogues already have an overloaded Bonus Action.
Thieves at level 13 use their spellcasting ability modifiers for spell scrolls:
And with expertise in Arcana, you'll never fail the check.
The "using intelligence as your spellcasting ability" phrase only means that if the spell description contains some feature reliant on spellcasting ability (such as Dispel Magic), the Rogue's Intelligence would be used. Since spell scrolls don't use spellcasting ability to calculate hit/DC (they're fixed upon creation of the spell scroll), your spellcasting ability doesn't matter for their hit/DC.
Ordinarily, the only way you can use a Scroll is if it appears on your spell list - which tells you what the spellcasting ability associated with that spell will be. However, you still use the default hit/DC regardless of what your own personal stat will be. Nothing about the Thief's Scroll Use ability changes this rule - it merely identifies what spellcasting ability you should use if it's called upon (which it normally isn't) since Thief Rogues aren't using Scrolls of spells that appear on their list.
3 things 90% of DND players can agree on is that 1.ARTIFICERS SHOULD NOT HAVE SPELL SLOTS,2.beastmaster ranger always has,still does,and always will SUCK,and 3.every rogue no matter the subclass is broken on its own and even more busted if you multiclass into fighter or legit just a full caster like sorceror or warlock,
side note if you take 2 levels in fighter and ACTION SURGE and then use ANOTHER magic scroll for 4 MAGIC ATTACKS in one turn if you didn't realize
uhhhh
Trans demigurl
pronouns she/they but just call me insults(I find it humorous)
I like spaghetti and all things lovecraftian,plus homebrew is my hobby
bisexual but taken so I'm in all Bi-myself *please laugh*
ducks are the superior species :3
(not a duck :( unfortunately)
but it does allow the USE item action so they could use another spell scroll.
checkmate again farquad :3
Why does no one ever remember exactly what action surge does?its more then just attack again go brr
uhhhh
Trans demigurl
pronouns she/they but just call me insults(I find it humorous)
I like spaghetti and all things lovecraftian,plus homebrew is my hobby
bisexual but taken so I'm in all Bi-myself *please laugh*
ducks are the superior species :3
(not a duck :( unfortunately)
forget this quote
uhhhh
Trans demigurl
pronouns she/they but just call me insults(I find it humorous)
I like spaghetti and all things lovecraftian,plus homebrew is my hobby
bisexual but taken so I'm in all Bi-myself *please laugh*
ducks are the superior species :3
(not a duck :( unfortunately)
what?unless I'm stupid which I'm not denying I'm pretty sure it's the use magic item action.every source I've seen says it it
uhhhh
Trans demigurl
pronouns she/they but just call me insults(I find it humorous)
I like spaghetti and all things lovecraftian,plus homebrew is my hobby
bisexual but taken so I'm in all Bi-myself *please laugh*
ducks are the superior species :3
(not a duck :( unfortunately)
In 5e2024 it is called the "Magic Action", there is no "use magic item action" in 5e24.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
dang nvm then I was mistaken
uhhhh
Trans demigurl
pronouns she/they but just call me insults(I find it humorous)
I like spaghetti and all things lovecraftian,plus homebrew is my hobby
bisexual but taken so I'm in all Bi-myself *please laugh*
ducks are the superior species :3
(not a duck :( unfortunately)
...its called the use action. Y'know, the action you take to use an object? Look in your PHB, buddy.
I'm just your everyday dungeon master. Ignore that jar full of souls. And those bones in the corner are just props, don't worry. I'm definitely NOT a lich. Definitely.
Yes, I like beholders. Yes, I curated an exquisite personality for commoner #2864. Yes, my catchphrase is "are you sure?"
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Honestly? I'm inclined to agree with this logic, especially because:
That said, spell scrolls' save DC's and spell attack bonuses reflect the abilities of its crafter. So, if you can find a high-level spell crafter to make your scrolls, or if you can convince the party caster to surrender a considerable amount of their personal time to make spells for you, then you can go nuts. And, as always, if you and your DM interpret the rules differently, then it's a game, do what you want, have fun.