Rule question. Rogue/thief can use fast hands Take the Utilize action (as a BA), or take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action. Read scrolls are a magic action and you can use them if the spell is in your spell list.
Here is the question does Magic Initiate: Wizard open up the wizard spell list so rogues can use wizards scrolls to use as a BA.
No, it doesn't. Taking the Magic Initiate feat does not make you a Wizard. You would need to actually take a level of Wizard for that to be considered "your spell list".
That said, at level 13 Thief Rogues do gain the ability to use any spell scroll regardless of what class list(s) the spell is on (and Fast Hands allows them to do it as a bonus action) so at that point it doesn't matter.
For your consideration, please look closer at the last two paragraphs in the Magic Initiate feat description.
"Spell Change. Whenever you gain a new level, you can replace one of the spells you chose for this feat with a different spell of the same level from the chosen spell list.
Repeatable. You can take this feat more than once, but you must choose a different spell list each time."
So, if you chose Magic Initiate (Wizard), you're locked into the Wizard spell list for any spells you could access. That makes it sound like a Thief with Magic Initiate (Wizard) has the Wizard spell list.
This doesn't have to be over powered either. A DM has a few ways to balance this:
•Most restrictive would be you can only use a scroll for a spell you've selected as part of this feat. If you haven't multi-classed then you don't have the same level of knowledge as somebody with levels in that class, so it doesn't make sense that you'd be able to understand a spell you've never cast before.
•Less restrictive would be you can only use scrolls of the spell levels you can cast. Found a scroll of Fireball but you've only got the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat? Pass that scroll to the wizard or the loot pile because you've only got the arcane oomph to cast level one Wizard spell scrolls.
•Least restrictive would be if the spell is on the list that matches your feat's class type, then you can cast it.
Personally, as DM and player, I use the second option. It aligns with how other classes can use scrolls (until level 13) and it hasn't felt restrictive.
So, if you chose Magic Initiate (Wizard), you're locked into the Wizard spell list for any spells you could access.
What happens if you never picked a magic initiate? Do you have access to all spells or none?
You can't use any spell scrolls unless you have a class spell list (or an overriding feature like the Thief Rogue's "Use Magic Device"). Whether you have Magic Initiate or not doesn't change that.
Ignoring M/C dips: If you have a scroll, you can not use it until 13th level. Magic Initiate background does not change that.
Fast hand allow you to use a magic item in the BA, but to use a scroll, you have to wait until you are 13th level.
•Most restrictive would be you can only use a scroll for a spell you've selected as part of this feat. If you haven't multi-classed then you don't have the same level of knowledge as somebody with levels in that class, so it doesn't make sense that you'd be able to understand a spell you've never cast before.
•Less restrictive would be you can only use scrolls of the spell levels you can cast. Found a scroll of Fireball but you've only got the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat? Pass that scroll to the wizard or the loot pile because you've only got the arcane oomph to cast level one Wizard spell scrolls.
So what does the above has to with level 13? Can a thief cast a fireball scroll?
Ignoring M/C dips: If you have a scroll, you can not use it until 13th level. Magic Initiate background does not change that.
Fast hand allow you to use a magic item in the BA, but to use a scroll, you have to wait until you are 13th level.
•Most restrictive would be you can only use a scroll for a spell you've selected as part of this feat. If you haven't multi-classed then you don't have the same level of knowledge as somebody with levels in that class, so it doesn't make sense that you'd be able to understand a spell you've never cast before.
•Less restrictive would be you can only use scrolls of the spell levels you can cast. Found a scroll of Fireball but you've only got the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat? Pass that scroll to the wizard or the loot pile because you've only got the arcane oomph to cast level one Wizard spell scrolls.
So what does the above has to with level 13? Can a thief cast a fireball scroll?
A Thief at level 13 can use any scroll. That’s what that level 13 feature does.
Before level 13, they are not able to use any scroll. You’re correct that Magic Initiate doesn’t change that under the official rules. jdjarrell_3 was proposing a house rule that would allow it.
More I'm questioning how/ why the Magic Initiate Feat doesn't count as having access to the associated class's spell list for the purposes of using Cantrip or First level spell scrolls. The language in the feat says you count as having that access, limited as it may be.
Is there something that more clearly defines when a character is considered to have access to a class's spell list?
Is there something that explicitly says taking the Magic Initiate Feat does not count as having access to that class's spell list?
More I'm questioning how/ why the Magic Initiate Feat doesn't count as having access to the associated class's spell list for the purposes of using Cantrip or First level spell scrolls. The language in the feat says you count as having that access, limited as it may be.
The feat does not say that; it merely says you can choose a couple of spells from a class's list. That's irrelevant, though, because the requirement for a spell scroll isn't "having access to" anything.
What it actually says is that you can use the scroll "if the spell is on your spell list". Thus, characters who don't have a spell list can't use them at all. Magic Initiate does not give you a spell list if you don't already have one, nor does it add the spells it grants to your spell list.
There is some further clarification on this here in Sage Advice. (It's talking about Bard spells specifically, but the same principle applies.)
A class feature (Magical Secrets) gives the Bard access to a non-Bard spell. If the Bard chose Spirit Guardians, then that spell is now considered to be on the Bard's spell list, so they can use a Scroll of Spirit Guardians so long as the spell scroll is not of a higher level than Bard can cast with a spell slot.
"For spells exclusive to the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard lists, a Bard must have that spell prepared via Magical Secrets for it to count as a Bard spell."
A feat (Magic Initiate) gives the Rogue access to cantrips and first levels spell of a different class (Cleric, Druid, and Wizard for 2024). That means any spells they take from the other list is now on the Rogue's spell list.
All of that makes this option an even more likely to be RAW and RAI than just, "Nope."
•Most restrictive would be you can only use a scroll for a spell you've selected as part of this feat. If you haven't multi-classed then you don't have the same level of knowledge as somebody with levels in that class, so it doesn't make sense that you'd be able to understand a spell you've never cast before.
I found the flaw. Magic Initiate doesn't actually give you a spell slot to use that one first level spell you chose. To use a spell scroll the spell must both be on your spell list AND be of a level that you could cast with a spell slot.
A level 10 Wizard (max spell slot of 5th level) couldn't use a 9th level Scroll of Magic Missile because they can't cast a 9th level spell on their own.
The feat doesn't give you any spell slots, so you can't use leveled spell scrolls. I do still think scrolls of cantrips should be possible, but maybe there's a flaw there too.
I have to disagree - I believe you can use Magic Initiate: Wizard for spell scrolls.
In 2014, spell scrolls had a requirement of 'class spell list'. These are spells that appear on a specific class list granted by a class spellcasting feature. You could read such scrolls even if they were of a higher level than you could cast if they appeared on your 'class spell list'.
In 2024, this changed to 'spell list'. Your 'spell list' is simply a compendium of spells you could cast without any link to the spellcasting feature from any specific class. So a level 1 Drow Fighter could read a scroll of Darkness despite the fact that they don't even have the spellcasting feature because Darkness appears on their spell list (although they'd need to make a roll since it's too high level for them to cast).
Note also that this change from 'class spell list' to 'spell list' means that there's no longer the weird interaction where you can scribe scrolls that you can't read.
No, because the distinction there is that the Bard feature explicitly says the spell "counts as Bard spell for you", thus making it part of your class spell list, while Magic Initiate does not do that (nor does it give you a class spell list if you don't already have one). That's the whole point.
I found the flaw. Magic Initiate doesn't actually give you a spell slot to use that one first level spell you chose. To use a spell scroll the spell must both be on your spell list AND be of a level that you could cast with a spell slot.
There is no such restriction on spell scrolls; there is no mention of spell slots in them at all. In fact, the description explicitly says you can use scrolls of a higher level than you can normally cast — you just have to succeed on an ability check to do so. But that reinforces the point that spell scrolls are only intended to be used by people who have a class Spellcasting feature (or something else like Use Magic Device that explicitly overrides that).
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Rule question.
Rogue/thief can use fast hands Take the Utilize action (as a BA), or take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action.
Read scrolls are a magic action and you can use them if the spell is in your spell list.
Here is the question does Magic Initiate: Wizard open up the wizard spell list so rogues can use wizards scrolls to use as a BA.
No, it doesn't. Taking the Magic Initiate feat does not make you a Wizard. You would need to actually take a level of Wizard for that to be considered "your spell list".
That said, at level 13 Thief Rogues do gain the ability to use any spell scroll regardless of what class list(s) the spell is on (and Fast Hands allows them to do it as a bonus action) so at that point it doesn't matter.
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For your consideration, please look closer at the last two paragraphs in the Magic Initiate feat description.
"Spell Change. Whenever you gain a new level, you can replace one of the spells you chose for this feat with a different spell of the same level from the chosen spell list.
Repeatable. You can take this feat more than once, but you must choose a different spell list each time."
So, if you chose Magic Initiate (Wizard), you're locked into the Wizard spell list for any spells you could access. That makes it sound like a Thief with Magic Initiate (Wizard) has the Wizard spell list.
This doesn't have to be over powered either. A DM has a few ways to balance this:
•Most restrictive would be you can only use a scroll for a spell you've selected as part of this feat. If you haven't multi-classed then you don't have the same level of knowledge as somebody with levels in that class, so it doesn't make sense that you'd be able to understand a spell you've never cast before.
•Less restrictive would be you can only use scrolls of the spell levels you can cast. Found a scroll of Fireball but you've only got the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat? Pass that scroll to the wizard or the loot pile because you've only got the arcane oomph to cast level one Wizard spell scrolls.
•Least restrictive would be if the spell is on the list that matches your feat's class type, then you can cast it.
Personally, as DM and player, I use the second option. It aligns with how other classes can use scrolls (until level 13) and it hasn't felt restrictive.
That does sound like a perfectly reasonable house rule.
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What happens if you never picked a magic initiate? Do you have access to all spells or none?
You can't use any spell scrolls unless you have a class spell list (or an overriding feature like the Thief Rogue's "Use Magic Device"). Whether you have Magic Initiate or not doesn't change that.
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I don't know enough as I am now so lost.
Ignoring M/C dips: If you have a scroll, you can not use it until 13th level. Magic Initiate background does not change that.
Fast hand allow you to use a magic item in the BA, but to use a scroll, you have to wait until you are 13th level.
So what does the above has to with level 13? Can a thief cast a fireball scroll?
A Thief at level 13 can use any scroll. That’s what that level 13 feature does.
Before level 13, they are not able to use any scroll. You’re correct that Magic Initiate doesn’t change that under the official rules. jdjarrell_3 was proposing a house rule that would allow it.
pronouns: he/she/they
More I'm questioning how/ why the Magic Initiate Feat doesn't count as having access to the associated class's spell list for the purposes of using Cantrip or First level spell scrolls. The language in the feat says you count as having that access, limited as it may be.
Is there something that more clearly defines when a character is considered to have access to a class's spell list?
Is there something that explicitly says taking the Magic Initiate Feat does not count as having access to that class's spell list?
The feat does not say that; it merely says you can choose a couple of spells from a class's list. That's irrelevant, though, because the requirement for a spell scroll isn't "having access to" anything.
What it actually says is that you can use the scroll "if the spell is on your spell list". Thus, characters who don't have a spell list can't use them at all. Magic Initiate does not give you a spell list if you don't already have one, nor does it add the spells it grants to your spell list.
There is some further clarification on this here in Sage Advice. (It's talking about Bard spells specifically, but the same principle applies.)
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That only reinforces my point though.
A class feature (Magical Secrets) gives the Bard access to a non-Bard spell. If the Bard chose Spirit Guardians, then that spell is now considered to be on the Bard's spell list, so they can use a Scroll of Spirit Guardians so long as the spell scroll is not of a higher level than Bard can cast with a spell slot.
"For spells exclusive to the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard lists, a Bard must have that spell prepared via Magical Secrets for it to count as a Bard spell."
A feat (Magic Initiate) gives the Rogue access to cantrips and first levels spell of a different class (Cleric, Druid, and Wizard for 2024). That means any spells they take from the other list is now on the Rogue's spell list.
All of that makes this option an even more likely to be RAW and RAI than just, "Nope."
I found the flaw. Magic Initiate doesn't actually give you a spell slot to use that one first level spell you chose. To use a spell scroll the spell must both be on your spell list AND be of a level that you could cast with a spell slot.
A level 10 Wizard (max spell slot of 5th level) couldn't use a 9th level Scroll of Magic Missile because they can't cast a 9th level spell on their own.
The feat doesn't give you any spell slots, so you can't use leveled spell scrolls. I do still think scrolls of cantrips should be possible, but maybe there's a flaw there too.
Apologies for the oversight.
I have to disagree - I believe you can use Magic Initiate: Wizard for spell scrolls.
In 2014, spell scrolls had a requirement of 'class spell list'. These are spells that appear on a specific class list granted by a class spellcasting feature. You could read such scrolls even if they were of a higher level than you could cast if they appeared on your 'class spell list'.
In 2024, this changed to 'spell list'. Your 'spell list' is simply a compendium of spells you could cast without any link to the spellcasting feature from any specific class. So a level 1 Drow Fighter could read a scroll of Darkness despite the fact that they don't even have the spellcasting feature because Darkness appears on their spell list (although they'd need to make a roll since it's too high level for them to cast).
Note also that this change from 'class spell list' to 'spell list' means that there's no longer the weird interaction where you can scribe scrolls that you can't read.
No, because the distinction there is that the Bard feature explicitly says the spell "counts as Bard spell for you", thus making it part of your class spell list, while Magic Initiate does not do that (nor does it give you a class spell list if you don't already have one). That's the whole point.
There is no such restriction on spell scrolls; there is no mention of spell slots in them at all. In fact, the description explicitly says you can use scrolls of a higher level than you can normally cast — you just have to succeed on an ability check to do so. But that reinforces the point that spell scrolls are only intended to be used by people who have a class Spellcasting feature (or something else like Use Magic Device that explicitly overrides that).
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