Wow, I didn't think that this thread would get this popular... My arcane trickster is actually a multiclass, Rogue 5/Bard 1 so far. (I'm planning to go more into bard later on for magical secrets and the skills!).
Anyhow, the spells I've chosen are:
Shield. Got to protect my squishy rogue!
Silent Image. I haven't actually used it yet but it has good rp potential.
Sleep. Pretty useful on a large amount of weak enemies or a big guy for the insta-crits!
Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Advantage on attacks for the beefy front liners! Sort of sucks for ranged attacks... which is what my rogue is. Still good for taking big guys down.
I also get Disguise Self and Invisibility from my tiefling subrace which is pretty nice!
At level six, my table's arcane trickster picked up a level of wizard. I expect he'll go wizard again at level seven (rogue 5/wizard 2) for his arcane tradition, which I expect will be divination. He's still getting tons of use out of his booming blade with green flame blade thrown in when there are multiple enemies nearby.
A Githyanki with their invisible magehand combined with the tricksters improvements and the sleight of hand feat can have you picking pockets, looting and otherwise being a menace with few the wiser. (also moving bee hives and stealing honey without getting stung because honey is money, tasty tasty money)
Don't Tricksters get invisible magehand as part of mage hand legerdemain? It's above the list of improvements.
Lvl 1 - find familiar: free advantage for for you or an all you everyturn with and owl. Also advantage on perception and an amazing scout tool.
Lvl 1- silent image: in the hands of a competent player this is one of the best spells in the game. Create cover via a ninja smoke bomb for stealth, mimic the cave opening so you can sneak up behind it and ambush the bandits to ambush you at its mouth, etc.
lvl 1- charm person - handy for interrogations and works better than intimidate.
lvl 2- shadow blade: essentially advantage on all attacks and magic weapon. Play a ranged user an use this when forced into melee. Pair with elven accuracy for awesomeness.
Lvl 3- haste: two sneak attacks per turn (on your turn haste action attack, bonus action hide, your action to ready an attack at end of x opponent turn so that attack gets sneak attack again). Another reason why ranged rogues are king.
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Lvl 3- haste: two sneak attacks per turn (on your turn haste action attack, bonus action hide, your action to ready an attack at end of x opponent turn so that attack gets sneak attack again). Another reason why ranged rogues are king.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But it doesn’t work like this. Haste gives you an additional action per turn.
“Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target's speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on DexteritySaving Throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon Attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Objectaction.”
Sneak attack
“Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.”
Extra actions do not equate to additional turns. If it did every rogue would just dip two levels into fighter for action surge.
The only rogue who can sneak attack twice per round due to additional turns is a thief. And that’s their capstone.
My favorite way to play my arcane trickster is rogue 11/cleric 9. Trickery domain. The domain has a lot of fun stuff for your arcane trickster that really compliments its style of play with your magical ambush feature.
Dimension Door, Polymorph, Banishment, Contagion, Dominate Monster, Mass Cure Wounds, Pass Without Trace, etc.
He’s also Svirnefblin so with their racial feat I can cast nondetection at will. Diviners never see you coming.
Stealth becomes +27 optimized and with reliable talent the lowest it can ever be is 37. With your magical ambush and that stealth roll you can end encounters before they begin
if you end up needing to hit someone no matter. Booming Blade is now 3d8 + an additional 4d8 if they decide to chase you, weapon damage of choice, sneak attack 6d6, and your divine strike is 2d8.
Extra actions do not equate to additional turns. If it did every rogue would just dip two levels into fighter for action surge.
The only rogue who can sneak attack twice per round due to additional turns is a thief. And that’s their capstone.
You are incorrect. The Scout from Xanathar also gets extra sneak attack by default, and he gets it every round provided more than 1 target is available.
Also, you misunderstood the concept of multiple sneak attacks explained earlier. There are a few ways every kind of rogue can get sneak attack twice in one round, like Haste, Quicken spell metamagic, battlemaster riposte, sentinel, ect...
To explain, with haste you have the following to use in a round : regular action, hasted action, bonus action, reaction. The way it works is, you use your hasted action to make a weapon attack which applies Sneak attack, bonus action to do whatever you prefer, then use your regular action to ready an attack (or cast booming blade) on a different turn when X happens, which will use your reaction and apply sneak attack.
Shadowblade, booming blade, sneak attack, and a friendly party haste can deal some serious hurt, but it also leaves you vulnerable. Melee for high-risk high-reward, ranged for better survival (unless you go deep with the SS feat, which is also a lot of hurt)
Actually again no. Jeremy Crawford has talked about this on sage advice. Look it up. And as a DM a majority of the time I would just tell you no. As you pointed out there are two archetypes that allow for this play one.
Actually again no. Jeremy Crawford has talked about this on sage advice. Look it up. And as a DM a majority of the time I would just tell you no. As you pointed out there are two archetypes that allow for this play one.
The only sage advice I can find on the subject is that you can sneak attack on your turn and then use your reaction to sneak attack on someone else's turn. Using haste to get both an attack and a readied action is one method of using your reaction for a sneak attack.
Hahaha that’s so cheesy. I’d rather have my reaction for evasion or uncanny dodge for all that unnecessary additional aggro that’s getting pulled. I’ll concede that if it’s done that way it would work, but I wouldn’t allow it at the table. It’s just cheesing capstones. I’d just hate for you to die because you couldn’t evade or dodge.
Hahaha that’s so cheesy. I’d rather have my reaction for evasion or uncanny dodge for all that unnecessary additional aggro that’s getting pulled. I’ll concede that if it’s done that way it would work, but I wouldn’t allow it at the table. It’s just cheesing capstones. I’d just hate for you to die because you couldn’t evade or dodge.
Evasion doesn't take your reaction.
I'd only recommend using haste like that for ranged rogues or if you aren't worried about getting hit since you have to worry about concentration on haste. For a more melee focused idea use your hasted action to attack, if it hits, use your normal action to dodge, otherwise, attack again.
Actually again no. Jeremy Crawford has talked about this on sage advice. Look it up. And as a DM a majority of the time I would just tell you no. As you pointed out there are two archetypes that allow for this play one.
Could you link to this? Usually, burden of proof is on the one citing it & I'm too lazy to sift through sage advice.
Hahaha that’s so cheesy. I’d rather have my reaction for evasion or uncanny dodge for all that unnecessary additional aggro that’s getting pulled. I’ll concede that if it’s done that way it would work, but I wouldn’t allow it at the table. It’s just cheesing capstones. I’d just hate for you to die because you couldn’t evade or dodge.
I don't see a problem with it. It's not game-breaking damage and you are investing/risking a lot into making the strategy work. Also, while everyone is certainly allowed to DM and run their game as they please, I think keeping personal biases & preferences away from a forum topic requesting advice and feedback is important, specially when presenting them as established rules (Sage Advice & Errata excluded, as most people understandably use the core books for reference). &btw: Evasion doesn't require a reaction.
I can see an Arcane Trickster 15/Bladesinger 5 be a really fun and effective duelist with a lot of options. You could concentrate on Haste for the double sneak attack strategy, blur for survivability, Shadow Blade for extra damage (although I would go to Bladesinger 6 for the extra attack if you want to focus on Shadow Blade). Using the Sentinel Feat + Shadow Blade + Mirror Image can give you a nice compromise between them, specially when fighting alongside your party. Giving yourself the bonus AC from Bladesong and Mirror Image could discourage an enemy from repeatedly attacking you and opt to attack your friend instead, triggering your Sentinel attack of opportunity.... Damn, I kinda want to play this now.
Also for the sneak attack with haste, you primarily set your readied action to go after your target. That way they won’t have a chance to target you since attacking will pull you out of stealth. And yes it works best with ranged rogues. Strong but not overpowering considering you’re using a limited resource.
Been seeing suggestions to use Find Familiar to get sneak attack every round. What keeps an opponent from just one-shotting the familiar and shutting down that strategy?
Depending on how the familiars owner plays nothing stops it, or its impossible to do.
If the familiar has flyby then it can dive in and out with no repercussions. If the familiar is worn - say a snake or octopus and lashes out then retreats to a covered object granting it total cover without 'leaving the reach of the target' there is no comeback, if the familiar is invisible and aids another (help action is not an attack or spell) it is unlikely to be hit when it flees. Easy.
Inspiring your familiar with leadership / shepherd totem other temp hits. Moderate.
Ignore anything like the above and just throw the familiar at the problem, it dies and you resummon it after. Hard (on multi round attacks and component costs)
Extra actions do not equate to additional turns. If it did every rogue would just dip two levels into fighter for action surge.
The only rogue who can sneak attack twice per round due to additional turns is a thief. And that’s their capstone.
You are incorrect. The Scout from Xanathar also gets extra sneak attack by default, and he gets it every round provided more than 1 target is available.
Also, you misunderstood the concept of multiple sneak attacks explained earlier. There are a few ways every kind of rogue can get sneak attack twice in one round, like Haste, Quicken spell metamagic, battlemaster riposte, sentinel, ect...
To explain, with haste you have the following to use in a round : regular action, hasted action, bonus action, reaction. The way it works is, you use your hasted action to make a weapon attack which applies Sneak attack, bonus action to do whatever you prefer, then use your regular action to ready an attack (or cast booming blade) on a different turn when X happens, which will use your reaction and apply sneak attack.
...
The scout can only sneak attack twice because the ability says it can, you can't normally sneak attack multiple times without reactions.
Ready attacks can target familiars, flyby does nothing against that.
On a slightly different note, can the trigger for the ready action be as unspecific as "when it seems like a good idea" or does it have to be as specific as "when the familiar uses the help action".
Does the Familiar trigger Sneak Attack just by being in proximity to the target? Due to the Sneak Attack Clause "You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it"
Per the Find Familiar spell "A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal." Does that mean the Familiar is no threat and thus wouldn't count as an enemy?
Mostly not sure how to describe this tactic if I need to use it and sell my GM on its function.
Whether the familiar triggers sneak attack by being within 5ft will vary a bit depending on your DM, but they can take the help action, giving you advantage on the attack so you can sneak attack.
Batshadow, There isnt a threat matrix or aggro table, if you have a familiar in combat and it is doing something that could be construed as aiding another (an animal running into feet, a bird diving at the face? you should have to come up with something - its the role, part of roleplay) then the DM decides if they want to attack it with a mob. As for sneak attack and familiars, most DM's would count a familiar as an ally, but some might not. For example:
WeaselTrickster072 'My weasel is in my pants, so when I rush in, the weasel is in 5' of them so I can sneak right?'
DM-E101 'Seriously? No! weasels down trousers, dont make it easier to sneak attack! Even if it stuck its head out why? why? Dammit, one night without this guys and girls, thats all I wanted.'
However:
Runs with Grass Snakes 39 'My serpent on my left wrist uncoils and feints along with my fist at the orcs eyes, when it blinks I use the opportunity to stab under the ribs and up into the lungs.'
May be adjudicated differently. Even if the serpent doesnt 'aid another' the player has described a valid 'how to' for the situation unlike the weasel enthusiast.
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Wow, I didn't think that this thread would get this popular... My arcane trickster is actually a multiclass, Rogue 5/Bard 1 so far. (I'm planning to go more into bard later on for magical secrets and the skills!).
Anyhow, the spells I've chosen are:
Shield. Got to protect my squishy rogue!
Silent Image. I haven't actually used it yet but it has good rp potential.
Sleep. Pretty useful on a large amount of weak enemies or a big guy for the insta-crits!
Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Advantage on attacks for the beefy front liners! Sort of sucks for ranged attacks... which is what my rogue is. Still good for taking big guys down.
I also get Disguise Self and Invisibility from my tiefling subrace which is pretty nice!
At level six, my table's arcane trickster picked up a level of wizard. I expect he'll go wizard again at level seven (rogue 5/wizard 2) for his arcane tradition, which I expect will be divination. He's still getting tons of use out of his booming blade with green flame blade thrown in when there are multiple enemies nearby.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Don't Tricksters get invisible magehand as part of mage hand legerdemain? It's above the list of improvements.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But it doesn’t work like this. Haste gives you an additional action per turn.
“Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target's speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity Saving Throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon Attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Objectaction.”
Sneak attack
“Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.”
Extra actions do not equate to additional turns. If it did every rogue would just dip two levels into fighter for action surge.
The only rogue who can sneak attack twice per round due to additional turns is a thief. And that’s their capstone.
My favorite way to play my arcane trickster is rogue 11/cleric 9. Trickery domain. The domain has a lot of fun stuff for your arcane trickster that really compliments its style of play with your magical ambush feature.
Dimension Door, Polymorph, Banishment, Contagion, Dominate Monster, Mass Cure Wounds, Pass Without Trace, etc.
He’s also Svirnefblin so with their racial feat I can cast nondetection at will. Diviners never see you coming.
Stealth becomes +27 optimized and with reliable talent the lowest it can ever be is 37. With your magical ambush and that stealth roll you can end encounters before they begin
if you end up needing to hit someone no matter. Booming Blade is now 3d8 + an additional 4d8 if they decide to chase you, weapon damage of choice, sneak attack 6d6, and your divine strike is 2d8.
Played tactically you become a one man party.
It’s probably the most fun I’ve had RAW.
You are incorrect. The Scout from Xanathar also gets extra sneak attack by default, and he gets it every round provided more than 1 target is available.
Also, you misunderstood the concept of multiple sneak attacks explained earlier. There are a few ways every kind of rogue can get sneak attack twice in one round, like Haste, Quicken spell metamagic, battlemaster riposte, sentinel, ect...
To explain, with haste you have the following to use in a round : regular action, hasted action, bonus action, reaction. The way it works is, you use your hasted action to make a weapon attack which applies Sneak attack, bonus action to do whatever you prefer, then use your regular action to ready an attack (or cast booming blade) on a different turn when X happens, which will use your reaction and apply sneak attack.
Shadowblade, booming blade, sneak attack, and a friendly party haste can deal some serious hurt, but it also leaves you vulnerable. Melee for high-risk high-reward, ranged for better survival (unless you go deep with the SS feat, which is also a lot of hurt)
Actually again no. Jeremy Crawford has talked about this on sage advice. Look it up. And as a DM a majority of the time I would just tell you no. As you pointed out there are two archetypes that allow for this play one.
The only sage advice I can find on the subject is that you can sneak attack on your turn and then use your reaction to sneak attack on someone else's turn. Using haste to get both an attack and a readied action is one method of using your reaction for a sneak attack.
Hahaha that’s so cheesy. I’d rather have my reaction for evasion or uncanny dodge for all that unnecessary additional aggro that’s getting pulled. I’ll concede that if it’s done that way it would work, but I wouldn’t allow it at the table. It’s just cheesing capstones. I’d just hate for you to die because you couldn’t evade or dodge.
Evasion doesn't take your reaction.
I'd only recommend using haste like that for ranged rogues or if you aren't worried about getting hit since you have to worry about concentration on haste. For a more melee focused idea use your hasted action to attack, if it hits, use your normal action to dodge, otherwise, attack again.
Could you link to this? Usually, burden of proof is on the one citing it & I'm too lazy to sift through sage advice.
I don't see a problem with it. It's not game-breaking damage and you are investing/risking a lot into making the strategy work. Also, while everyone is certainly allowed to DM and run their game as they please, I think keeping personal biases & preferences away from a forum topic requesting advice and feedback is important, specially when presenting them as established rules (Sage Advice & Errata excluded, as most people understandably use the core books for reference). &btw: Evasion doesn't require a reaction.
I can see an Arcane Trickster 15/Bladesinger 5 be a really fun and effective duelist with a lot of options. You could concentrate on Haste for the double sneak attack strategy, blur for survivability, Shadow Blade for extra damage (although I would go to Bladesinger 6 for the extra attack if you want to focus on Shadow Blade). Using the Sentinel Feat + Shadow Blade + Mirror Image can give you a nice compromise between them, specially when fighting alongside your party. Giving yourself the bonus AC from Bladesong and Mirror Image could discourage an enemy from repeatedly attacking you and opt to attack your friend instead, triggering your Sentinel attack of opportunity.... Damn, I kinda want to play this now.
Also for the sneak attack with haste, you primarily set your readied action to go after your target. That way they won’t have a chance to target you since attacking will pull you out of stealth. And yes it works best with ranged rogues. Strong but not overpowering considering you’re using a limited resource.
Perhaps he meant Uncanny Dodge.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Been seeing suggestions to use Find Familiar to get sneak attack every round. What keeps an opponent from just one-shotting the familiar and shutting down that strategy?
Depending on how the familiars owner plays nothing stops it, or its impossible to do.
If the familiar has flyby then it can dive in and out with no repercussions. If the familiar is worn - say a snake or octopus and lashes out then retreats to a covered object granting it total cover without 'leaving the reach of the target' there is no comeback, if the familiar is invisible and aids another (help action is not an attack or spell) it is unlikely to be hit when it flees. Easy.
Inspiring your familiar with leadership / shepherd totem other temp hits. Moderate.
Ignore anything like the above and just throw the familiar at the problem, it dies and you resummon it after. Hard (on multi round attacks and component costs)
The scout can only sneak attack twice because the ability says it can, you can't normally sneak attack multiple times without reactions.
Ready attacks can target familiars, flyby does nothing against that.
On a slightly different note, can the trigger for the ready action be as unspecific as "when it seems like a good idea" or does it have to be as specific as "when the familiar uses the help action".
Does the Familiar trigger Sneak Attack just by being in proximity to the target? Due to the Sneak Attack Clause "You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it"
Per the Find Familiar spell "A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal." Does that mean the Familiar is no threat and thus wouldn't count as an enemy?
Mostly not sure how to describe this tactic if I need to use it and sell my GM on its function.
Whether the familiar triggers sneak attack by being within 5ft will vary a bit depending on your DM, but they can take the help action, giving you advantage on the attack so you can sneak attack.
Batshadow, There isnt a threat matrix or aggro table, if you have a familiar in combat and it is doing something that could be construed as aiding another (an animal running into feet, a bird diving at the face? you should have to come up with something - its the role, part of roleplay) then the DM decides if they want to attack it with a mob. As for sneak attack and familiars, most DM's would count a familiar as an ally, but some might not. For example:
WeaselTrickster072 'My weasel is in my pants, so when I rush in, the weasel is in 5' of them so I can sneak right?'
DM-E101 'Seriously? No! weasels down trousers, dont make it easier to sneak attack! Even if it stuck its head out why? why? Dammit, one night without this guys and girls, thats all I wanted.'
However:
Runs with Grass Snakes 39 'My serpent on my left wrist uncoils and feints along with my fist at the orcs eyes, when it blinks I use the opportunity to stab under the ribs and up into the lungs.'
May be adjudicated differently. Even if the serpent doesnt 'aid another' the player has described a valid 'how to' for the situation unlike the weasel enthusiast.