Would like to explore some idea's for creating a strength based rogue. Liking the idea of taking tavern brawler feat and later the grappler feat for the advantage on attacks against a grappled creature for auto sneak attacks when solo or not relying on allies. Not sure on what type of weapon should he use to best utilize his/her strength and still get sneak attack.
Thanks,
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"Tell me how it ends...." - Southern DM's victory phrase!
Any melee weapon that works for sneak attacks can use strength in place of dexterity. Finesse weapons, like monk unarmed strikes, CAN use dexterity in place of strength, but they don't have to.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
The issues I have with Strength Build is without Multiclassing, it's MAD (Multi Attribute Dependant)
1) Without also having an high dexterity you don't have medium or heavy armor proficiency... or you AC is just terrible.
2) Rogues benefit from a high mobility, grappling the enemy literally removes that mobility.
3) Also the Feats don't really help a rogue very much as you'll see here:
Grappler gives 3 benefits.
You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.
..This does give you sneak attack, but so does having an ally within 5 feet.
You can Pin a creature so both of you are both restrained.
..This negatives Sneak Attack because you no longer have advantage because you also have disadv.
3rd ability doesn't do anything because it refers to a rule that doesn't exist
Tavern Brawler:
+1 Str or Con
..great no matter what, and helps a little with the MAD issues.
Proficient with unarmed strikes and improvised weapons
..neither of these weapon have Finesse, so don't help with Sneak Attack
If you hit with an unarmed strike of improvised weapon Bonus Action to Grapple
..Saves you a non damaging attack to initate a grapple
..Attack still doesn't get Sneak Attack
The only Feat that I think could help a Rogue Strength Build is Shield Master, this requires either 2 feats (Medium Armor Proficiency (also gives +1 Str or Dex) + Shield Master) or MultiClassing.
A) Gauntlet of Ogre Strength are on the of the cheapest magic items, and allow you to deal with starting with a low strength.
B) Medium Armor Expertise is pretty cool, as it lets you get +3 Dex to Medium Armor and not take penalties to Stealth from armor.
1) Expertise in Athletics will significantly help your chances to Shove your enemy.
2) An enemy shoved Prone has DisAdv on Attack Rolls and gives Advantage to attack rolls, and gives Adv to ALL allies attacking the target Advantage.
3) A Prone enemy has limited mobility (half speed to stand up)
4) +2 AC from a Shield is sweet for a Rogue
5) +2 to Dex Savs verses single target makes your Dex Sav even harder to attack
6) ReAction AoE Evasion can be gained at 4th level instead of normally Evasion gotten 7th level.
..This ability is superseeded at 7th level, but you get it far earlier, especially helpful with the levels lost from Multiclassing.
Great analysis of the feats and abilities. I am wanting to make a more thug based rogue which is why i ask about strength based ideas. It is more for thematic than raw stats. The shield master idea is pretty cool for sure. The shove with expertise in athletics gives a good chance to put a creature prone for more advantage. Ac wasnt a crucial stat for this character to begin with but the ability to add in a shields +2 is really nice. Might even down the road take tavern brawler (favorite feat in game) and dual weapon master for the extra 1 ac and the ability to attack or shove with the shield. Very cool ideas!
Thanks,
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"Tell me how it ends...." - Southern DM's victory phrase!
If you really want to be a thug instead of taking the medium armor feat that is not bad for a variant human rogue you can also take a level of fighter. That delays your rogue abilities but in return gives you a lot of survivability. If you take fighter at level 1 you lose a skill though but gain better saves as well as 2 hp and a fighting style to compensate for the slightly lower sneak attack damage. Heavy armor use is not recommended.
I am actually playing a strength type rogue, I picked earth genasi and have equal strength and dex scores, I trying to create something like a spy/CIA type (think Liam Neeson is Taken). My biggest problem is low wis or int checks because of lower stats. I am thinking of taking 3 levels in fighter to get maneuvers and try for int/wis magic items that can help me make a more rounded character
As a single class? As someone who has tried this, my experience was that it didn't work...well, if you're trying to actually fill the role of rogue in the party. If you have anyone else that can make those Skill checks where dexterity is a major factor, then I'd say go ahead. If not, the game might start getting more and more difficult as it goes along.
I did have a Barb/Fighter/Rogue once. It was only a two level dip, but the build worked...surprisingly well! Sneak attack wasn't terribly useful, but the cunning action did keep things interesting.
If you have XGtE, taking inquisitive would help because at level 3 rogue so long as you take expertise in Insight, and beat a contested check of your insight(You have a minimum of 12+wis due to Ear for Deceit which guarantees an 8+mod on 7 or lower on the d20) v their deception you can hit them with sneak attack with needing adv or anyone nearby.
Unfortunately the wording of sneak attack as finesse or ranged weapon only prevents or at least discourages a strength-based Rogue and I can't see why it was written that way. Even if you opened up sneak attack to the nastiest weapons were only talking about +10hp ( 1/2 orc 3rd level assassin/1st level fighter. Savage attack, assassinate, great axe for a total of 3d12+ 2d6. The same 1/2 orc could achieve 3d8+2+2d6 with a rapier and the dueling fighting style). That's a pretty extreme min/max Max but would way cooler then the rapier wielding 1/2 orc. Opening up weapon choices to those weapons usable by rouges should be a simple and balanced approach and would only help in role-playing and character development as envisioned rather then making tactical decisions about character development predicated on the rules of the game.
For me personally to go a Strength based rogue it would have to be heavily based upon the character themselves (along with competent party members) or multi with Barb and just always reckless along with a finesse weapon while using strength, also using feats regarding to crits and or being a half-orc would help
Strength based rogue works with the tortle race, since you get 17 AC natural armor, you can go with a focus on Str/Con for your abilities and your AC wont suffer. No need for a armor feat, either.
Personally, I like the idea of a Jaguar sort of Tabaxi that focuses on grappling a target. It’s just a shame that unarmed strikes don’t count for sneak attack damage.
Yeah Grappler Rogues can be fun and effective, you pretty much get to grapple whatever you want and then with dashing drag them around forever, the question ultimately you must ask is Why are you dragging them around? Unfortunately 5e doesn't let you drag them through blade barriers and do damage per 5' of movement or anything. It pairs well with a fly speed for drop tactics, but it pairs Even Better with Dimension Door, which Bards can throw out like it's nothing, but Rogues can not at all without multiclassing. The main advantage the Rogue gets is Reliable Talent, but in exchange they basically rely on the party to actually do anything meaningful with the grapple once it's initiated. Unless of course I'm missing something. You can't even pin spellcasters to shut down spellcasting in this edition.
A strength based rogue easily works with a combination of fighter and rogue levels. 5 or 6 fighter levels and 5 or 6 rogue levels gives you everything you need. Best be a battle master thief. A champion also works as critical hit work very well with sneak attack. The reliable talent feature also pairs very well with remarkable athlete later.
The only thing you really miss is not being able to use clubs or bludgeoning weapons as a thug. A short sword or two however will work however. A feat I like is tavern brawler. Use an unarmed attack and grapple. Draw a dagger and go nuts. Note that a thief can use his cunning action for drawing weapons. So he can throw 2 of them a turn after getting extra attack or using action surge.
If I were doing a non house ruled str rogue with standard array, that will be a way to do it:
Assume variant human:
Stats: Str 15+1, Dex 14, Con 13+1, Int 8, Wis 12+1, cha 10, Tavern Brawler. (alternately: shield master, athlete, martial adept, sentinel or mobile)
I am doing a strength rogue that is going to take 2 level of Barbarian, so if I really need advantage for sneak attack I can go reckless. Gets you unarmored defense, and shields so if you take the shieldmaster feat.
Honestly, I think that the Rogue's sneak attack was made to only work with finessable weapons for precisely this reason. If you multiclassed barbarian then if you used a reckless attack you could get that once-per-turn spurt of sneak attack damage pretty much whenever you wanted so long as you were within melee range WITH the option of getting that ragey damage boost as well.
I will say though... the feeling of playing a thug-type of rogue is just doesn't feel right if you're being made to use all these weapons that are more skill-oriented as opposed to strength-oriented.
The solution I cam up with when I wanted to play a former bandit that had a penchant for smashing things is to just outright make them a fighter or even a barbarian instead. The Berzerker Barbarian Path can be a good choice for these character-types or... when I was testing the character out I used a modified version of the Brute-Fighter-Archetype that felt less like it totally eclipsed the Champion-Archetype. I imagine the Champion-Fighter would also work really well though. The flavor text for the fighter in the PHB even outright lists Bandit Kings as an example of characters that might be fighters so a thug doesn't sound like too much of a stretch by comparison.
The thing your all missing is that sneak attack works with ranged weapons regardless of whether or not they are strength based. This includes spears, hand axes, and light hammers all of which you can use in melee and keep sneak attack or also be thrown. The benefit of a strength rogue is getting better melee weapons than daggers that you can also throw.
You can also use two handaxes or hammers. So if you are fighting against a single enemy, attack becomes a shove, bonus action attack sneak attack. Expertise in athletics can almost garuntee success on weaker enemies.
The best way I can see a Strength-based rogue is using the Dual Wielder feat. Using a longsword as the main hand and dagger (you could use a rapier, but it looks awkward to me) in the off hand. So you have 1d8+strength attack + 1d4 + xd6. The main disadvantage is that this uses your bonus action, so you can't use cunning action, and you still need some dex for the offhand to hit and your AC. And by that point, you still might as well be DEX and use a rapier and parrying dagger to get the same damage and better AC.
The thing your all missing is that sneak attack works with ranged weapons regardless of whether or not they are strength based. This includes spears, hand axes, and light hammers all of which you can use in melee and keep sneak attack or also be thrown. The benefit of a strength rogue is getting better melee weapons than daggers that you can also throw.
You can also use two handaxes or hammers. So if you are fighting against a single enemy, attack becomes a shove, bonus action attack sneak attack. Expertise in athletics can almost garuntee success on weaker enemies.
This is inaccurate. A ranged weapon is one on the list of simple or martial ranged weapons. A melee weapon with the thrown property is still a melee weapon. Jeremy Crawford has confirmed this.
I've recently gone with a STR based Goliath Swashbuckler Rogue. With the Swashbuckler you get to use sneak attack whenever there is no other enemy within 5 feet of you, and their Fancy Footwork means anyone you land an attack on is unable to make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn. Fancy Footwork means you can dual wield against a couple of opponents without necessarily needing a Cunning Action Disengage to avoid opportunity attacks (which frees you up to attack with your off hand). It obviously doesn't help with AC unfortunately, but at least once per short (maybe long?) rest the Goliath can shrug off 1d12+CON of damage, so that's a nice bonus. There still needs to be someone else in the party to take up DEX based checks.
I've literally only just started running the character, so I can't really say whether it's actually going to work very well...but a Goliath Pirate Lord seemed to badass to not play.
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Would like to explore some idea's for creating a strength based rogue. Liking the idea of taking tavern brawler feat and later the grappler feat for the advantage on attacks against a grappled creature for auto sneak attacks when solo or not relying on allies. Not sure on what type of weapon should he use to best utilize his/her strength and still get sneak attack.
Thanks,
"Tell me how it ends...." - Southern DM's victory phrase!
Current Campaing- "ASUNDER"
Up next- "Demons and False Gods"
Any melee weapon that works for sneak attacks can use strength in place of dexterity. Finesse weapons, like monk unarmed strikes, CAN use dexterity in place of strength, but they don't have to.
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
The issues I have with Strength Build is without Multiclassing, it's MAD (Multi Attribute Dependant)
1) Without also having an high dexterity you don't have medium or heavy armor proficiency... or you AC is just terrible.
2) Rogues benefit from a high mobility, grappling the enemy literally removes that mobility.
3) Also the Feats don't really help a rogue very much as you'll see here:
Grappler gives 3 benefits.
You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.
..This does give you sneak attack, but so does having an ally within 5 feet.
You can Pin a creature so both of you are both restrained.
..This negatives Sneak Attack because you no longer have advantage because you also have disadv.
3rd ability doesn't do anything because it refers to a rule that doesn't exist
Tavern Brawler:
+1 Str or Con
..great no matter what, and helps a little with the MAD issues.
Proficient with unarmed strikes and improvised weapons
..neither of these weapon have Finesse, so don't help with Sneak Attack
If you hit with an unarmed strike of improvised weapon Bonus Action to Grapple
..Saves you a non damaging attack to initate a grapple
..Attack still doesn't get Sneak Attack
The only Feat that I think could help a Rogue Strength Build is Shield Master, this requires either 2 feats (Medium Armor Proficiency (also gives +1 Str or Dex) + Shield Master) or MultiClassing.
A) Gauntlet of Ogre Strength are on the of the cheapest magic items, and allow you to deal with starting with a low strength.
B) Medium Armor Expertise is pretty cool, as it lets you get +3 Dex to Medium Armor and not take penalties to Stealth from armor.
1) Expertise in Athletics will significantly help your chances to Shove your enemy.
2) An enemy shoved Prone has DisAdv on Attack Rolls and gives Advantage to attack rolls, and gives Adv to ALL allies attacking the target Advantage.
3) A Prone enemy has limited mobility (half speed to stand up)
4) +2 AC from a Shield is sweet for a Rogue
5) +2 to Dex Savs verses single target makes your Dex Sav even harder to attack
6) ReAction AoE Evasion can be gained at 4th level instead of normally Evasion gotten 7th level.
..This ability is superseeded at 7th level, but you get it far earlier, especially helpful with the levels lost from Multiclassing.
Great analysis of the feats and abilities. I am wanting to make a more thug based rogue which is why i ask about strength based ideas. It is more for thematic than raw stats. The shield master idea is pretty cool for sure. The shove with expertise in athletics gives a good chance to put a creature prone for more advantage. Ac wasnt a crucial stat for this character to begin with but the ability to add in a shields +2 is really nice. Might even down the road take tavern brawler (favorite feat in game) and dual weapon master for the extra 1 ac and the ability to attack or shove with the shield. Very cool ideas!
Thanks,
"Tell me how it ends...." - Southern DM's victory phrase!
Current Campaing- "ASUNDER"
Up next- "Demons and False Gods"
If you really want to be a thug instead of taking the medium armor feat that is not bad for a variant human rogue you can also take a level of fighter. That delays your rogue abilities but in return gives you a lot of survivability. If you take fighter at level 1 you lose a skill though but gain better saves as well as 2 hp and a fighting style to compensate for the slightly lower sneak attack damage. Heavy armor use is not recommended.
I am actually playing a strength type rogue, I picked earth genasi and have equal strength and dex scores, I trying to create something like a spy/CIA type (think Liam Neeson is Taken). My biggest problem is low wis or int checks because of lower stats. I am thinking of taking 3 levels in fighter to get maneuvers and try for int/wis magic items that can help me make a more rounded character
As a single class? As someone who has tried this, my experience was that it didn't work...well, if you're trying to actually fill the role of rogue in the party. If you have anyone else that can make those Skill checks where dexterity is a major factor, then I'd say go ahead. If not, the game might start getting more and more difficult as it goes along.
I did have a Barb/Fighter/Rogue once. It was only a two level dip, but the build worked...surprisingly well! Sneak attack wasn't terribly useful, but the cunning action did keep things interesting.
If you have XGtE, taking inquisitive would help because at level 3 rogue so long as you take expertise in Insight, and beat a contested check of your insight(You have a minimum of 12+wis due to Ear for Deceit which guarantees an 8+mod on 7 or lower on the d20) v their deception you can hit them with sneak attack with needing adv or anyone nearby.
Unfortunately the wording of sneak attack as finesse or ranged weapon only prevents or at least discourages a strength-based Rogue and I can't see why it was written that way. Even if you opened up sneak attack to the nastiest weapons were only talking about +10hp ( 1/2 orc 3rd level assassin/1st level fighter. Savage attack, assassinate, great axe for a total of 3d12+ 2d6. The same 1/2 orc could achieve 3d8+2+2d6 with a rapier and the dueling fighting style). That's a pretty extreme min/max Max but would way cooler then the rapier wielding 1/2 orc. Opening up weapon choices to those weapons usable by rouges should be a simple and balanced approach and would only help in role-playing and character development as envisioned rather then making tactical decisions about character development predicated on the rules of the game.
For me personally to go a Strength based rogue it would have to be heavily based upon the character themselves (along with competent party members) or multi with Barb and just always reckless along with a finesse weapon while using strength, also using feats regarding to crits and or being a half-orc would help
Strength based rogue works with the tortle race, since you get 17 AC natural armor, you can go with a focus on Str/Con for your abilities and your AC wont suffer. No need for a armor feat, either.
Then use finesse weapons with str attack.
Personally, I like the idea of a Jaguar sort of Tabaxi that focuses on grappling a target. It’s just a shame that unarmed strikes don’t count for sneak attack damage.
Yeah Grappler Rogues can be fun and effective, you pretty much get to grapple whatever you want and then with dashing drag them around forever, the question ultimately you must ask is Why are you dragging them around? Unfortunately 5e doesn't let you drag them through blade barriers and do damage per 5' of movement or anything. It pairs well with a fly speed for drop tactics, but it pairs Even Better with Dimension Door, which Bards can throw out like it's nothing, but Rogues can not at all without multiclassing. The main advantage the Rogue gets is Reliable Talent, but in exchange they basically rely on the party to actually do anything meaningful with the grapple once it's initiated. Unless of course I'm missing something. You can't even pin spellcasters to shut down spellcasting in this edition.
A strength based rogue easily works with a combination of fighter and rogue levels. 5 or 6 fighter levels and 5 or 6 rogue levels gives you everything you need. Best be a battle master thief. A champion also works as critical hit work very well with sneak attack. The reliable talent feature also pairs very well with remarkable athlete later.
The only thing you really miss is not being able to use clubs or bludgeoning weapons as a thug. A short sword or two however will work however. A feat I like is tavern brawler. Use an unarmed attack and grapple. Draw a dagger and go nuts. Note that a thief can use his cunning action for drawing weapons. So he can throw 2 of them a turn after getting extra attack or using action surge.
If I were doing a non house ruled str rogue with standard array, that will be a way to do it:
Assume variant human:
Stats: Str 15+1, Dex 14, Con 13+1, Int 8, Wis 12+1, cha 10, Tavern Brawler. (alternately: shield master, athlete, martial adept, sentinel or mobile)
Fighter 1. Rogue 1. Fighter 2, rogue 2, 3 (thief), fighter 3, 4, 5, rogue 4, 5. Fighter 6
ASI: Str+2, Resilient Wis, Str +2
I am doing a strength rogue that is going to take 2 level of Barbarian, so if I really need advantage for sneak attack I can go reckless. Gets you unarmored defense, and shields so if you take the shieldmaster feat.
Honestly, I think that the Rogue's sneak attack was made to only work with finessable weapons for precisely this reason. If you multiclassed barbarian then if you used a reckless attack you could get that once-per-turn spurt of sneak attack damage pretty much whenever you wanted so long as you were within melee range WITH the option of getting that ragey damage boost as well.
I will say though... the feeling of playing a thug-type of rogue is just doesn't feel right if you're being made to use all these weapons that are more skill-oriented as opposed to strength-oriented.
The solution I cam up with when I wanted to play a former bandit that had a penchant for smashing things is to just outright make them a fighter or even a barbarian instead. The Berzerker Barbarian Path can be a good choice for these character-types or... when I was testing the character out I used a modified version of the Brute-Fighter-Archetype that felt less like it totally eclipsed the Champion-Archetype. I imagine the Champion-Fighter would also work really well though. The flavor text for the fighter in the PHB even outright lists Bandit Kings as an example of characters that might be fighters so a thug doesn't sound like too much of a stretch by comparison.
The thing your all missing is that sneak attack works with ranged weapons regardless of whether or not they are strength based. This includes spears, hand axes, and light hammers all of which you can use in melee and keep sneak attack or also be thrown. The benefit of a strength rogue is getting better melee weapons than daggers that you can also throw.
You can also use two handaxes or hammers. So if you are fighting against a single enemy, attack becomes a shove, bonus action attack sneak attack. Expertise in athletics can almost garuntee success on weaker enemies.
The best way I can see a Strength-based rogue is using the Dual Wielder feat. Using a longsword as the main hand and dagger (you could use a rapier, but it looks awkward to me) in the off hand. So you have 1d8+strength attack + 1d4 + xd6. The main disadvantage is that this uses your bonus action, so you can't use cunning action, and you still need some dex for the offhand to hit and your AC. And by that point, you still might as well be DEX and use a rapier and parrying dagger to get the same damage and better AC.
This is inaccurate. A ranged weapon is one on the list of simple or martial ranged weapons. A melee weapon with the thrown property is still a melee weapon. Jeremy Crawford has confirmed this.
I've recently gone with a STR based Goliath Swashbuckler Rogue. With the Swashbuckler you get to use sneak attack whenever there is no other enemy within 5 feet of you, and their Fancy Footwork means anyone you land an attack on is unable to make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn. Fancy Footwork means you can dual wield against a couple of opponents without necessarily needing a Cunning Action Disengage to avoid opportunity attacks (which frees you up to attack with your off hand). It obviously doesn't help with AC unfortunately, but at least once per short (maybe long?) rest the Goliath can shrug off 1d12+CON of damage, so that's a nice bonus. There still needs to be someone else in the party to take up DEX based checks.
I've literally only just started running the character, so I can't really say whether it's actually going to work very well...but a Goliath Pirate Lord seemed to badass to not play.