The bonus action from Two-weapon fighting would only ever be used if your first attack missed. That is to ensure you get your sneak attack damage in. If you hit, you can still disengage. Getting advantage from hide on every round is subject to a DM that allows it. You aren't unseen when you pop out from your cover so unless your DM allows you to hide when everyone knows exactly where you are, you're not getting advantage. I've never been on a table that would give hide this easily but apparently it does happen.
Well of they are not giving you stealth they are either war gamers or don't know how the mechanic works, when you hide if you roll higher than a creatures passive perception they are un aware of your presence more over a creatures head cant rotate 360 degrees, if you stab or shoot a creature on your turn they can't actually look for you until there turn of witch of your hiding again they wont know where you are unless that want to try to use there action to look got you and even then if they are fighting more than one thing the creature might assume they are getting attacked by the other creatures on top of that if you are dealing with creatures with darkvision and it is dark that means the creatures in said dark will be seeing in shades of grey and in dim light so that's disadvantage on perceptions checks.
So your lesson is to stay behind creatures and behind full or half cover, use your magic Items to your advantage (cloak of elfenkind works like solid snakes camouflage in MGS4 by changing colors to match the environment) and to better lean how mechanic works, and common sense in combat.
The whole hide as a bonus to always have advantage on there attacks to make the most of there one attack per round, and if you really don't care what you main weapon will be pick a shortbow because of the ease it allows for ducking in and out of cover, longbow if you can get it.
I have been fairly critical of the rogue on these forums. It's not because I don't like the class, truth is I love the rogue. I have been critical because from a mathematical perspective dual wielding is far and away the best way to play the rogue unless you can gain advantage in some way consistently. Gaining advantage provides the ranged rogue and the single handed rogue a way to close the gap.
Enter the new UA class variants. For those that haven't read it yet, you can find it here. Among a ton of things, you'll find a new optional feature called Cunning Action: Aim. Here is the text:
You gain an additional way to use your Cunning Action: carefully aiming your next attack. As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven’t moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.
I haven't given it a ton of thought yet, but I did want to encourage people to check it out and start a discussion around it. It is seemingly a fantastic solution with excellent trade-offs.
My main concern is Elven Accuracy. With such an easy way to gain advantage, this feat might be too strong. I'm also not sure how multiclassing might work with this but UA material isn't designed with that in mind anyway. If it did become official, there may be some troublesome interactions with other classes. I think it would be fine but that's just my first thought.
What do you think?
Not just eleven accuracy. 100% sneak attack damage die rates.
edit: “but but you can hide and get the advantage...”
hiding goes against a perception check or passive perceptions. You guys ever play high level campaigns? Lots of things with 30+ passive perceptions. You ever try hiding?
you cannot hide from everything. It’s not 100% aim. It is 100%. Period.
that is too abusable in the way it’s designed.
sure, DM can work hard to prevent you from always being able to use your bow from X distance. Well out of range of threat and such and aiming. But again. Picture how this is too a useable.
flying races and aim.
You can aim standing directly next to an enemy.
Now it’s like relentless assault but without the enemy getting advantage back against you.
Not to mention. This is a 2 level dip in rogue to get.
i guarantee you. You can make a completely ridiculous crit fisher build multiclassing with a 2 level rogue dip for this.
edit:
off the top of my head. Eleven accuracy. Aim. Rogue 2 levels. Fighter 3 champion for improved crit. And 15 levels of Bard - college of whispers. For 8d6 psychic blades.
1 attack. From range. Not including any other feats etc.
Not to mention. This is a 2 level dip in rogue to get.
i guarantee you. You can make a completely ridiculous crit fisher build multiclassing with a 2 level rogue dip for this.
edit:
off the top of my head. Eleven accuracy. Aim. Rogue 2 levels. Fighter 3 champion for improved crit. And 15 levels of Bard - college of whispers. For 8d6 psychic blades.
1 attack. From range. Not including any other feats etc.
weapon attack d6/d8
psychic blades 8d6 psychic
sneak attack 1d6
crits on 19 or 20. 3 rolls.
28% chance to crit.
edit2: I guarantee there’s better than that too.
You'd be better off just taking 17 levels of rogue and 3 levels of fighter, or actually 15 levels rogue and 5 levels fighter to get your crit fishing build. That said, UA material isn't designed with multiclassing in mind. If I were designing this for a final release, I'd put it higher like maybe 5 or 6. Even if it stays, there are still better low level dips. Hexblade Warlock or fighter are still better dips. Barbarian is an equally good dip for crit fishing without a lot of the negatives.
They could also unlock Aim at a certain level to balance it.
At high level, I guess it's better to use your cunning action for something else than putting a cross on your movement. It becomes situational, not mandatory. But I still think Aim should be a part of an archetype. Assassin comes to my mind, obviously, or perhaps Inquisitive or Scout? I won't refuse an easy way to get advantage with my Thief, but I'm afraid Aim could be the best option to do EVERY turn, using others options only for the roleplay.
Not to mention. This is a 2 level dip in rogue to get.
i guarantee you. You can make a completely ridiculous crit fisher build multiclassing with a 2 level rogue dip for this.
edit:
off the top of my head. Eleven accuracy. Aim. Rogue 2 levels. Fighter 3 champion for improved crit. And 15 levels of Bard - college of whispers. For 8d6 psychic blades.
1 attack. From range. Not including any other feats etc.
weapon attack d6/d8
psychic blades 8d6 psychic
sneak attack 1d6
crits on 19 or 20. 3 rolls.
28% chance to crit.
edit2: I guarantee there’s better than that too.
You'd be better off just taking 17 levels of rogue and 3 levels of fighter, or actually 15 levels rogue and 5 levels fighter to get your crit fishing build. That said, UA material isn't designed with multiclassing in mind. If I were designing this for a final release, I'd put it higher like maybe 5 or 6. Even if it stays, there are still better low level dips. Hexblade Warlock or fighter are still better dips. Barbarian is an equally good dip for crit fishing without a lot of the negatives.
Yeah mostly falls under edit 2.
but the 15 levels of bard scenario I painted. Also means you’re “primarily a spell caster”
edit: a spellcaster that can put up an Antimagic field and action surge and do that sneak attack crit fisher damage chance all in the same go. If they so want.
It seems I am one of the few who actually like this idea. I am playing a Tortle Arcane Archer Assassin in a very open world campaign with over 30 players all over the world. 5 players per game session means its not always the same party. Sometimes we are fighter heavy and Sneak Attack is easy to get (unless DM throws a 2:1 ratio), other times its all mages and its never more than one person in melee at a time. Hiding has not been a option from the layouts of the battlefield; underwater, darkness, open fields, etc. We are also still in relatively low-levels.
I enjoy the idea that an archery based character concept can benefit from Cunning Aim to essentially wait until the target's focus is drawn away within those 6 seconds for maximum efficiency. But I am looking at this through an RP lens and less number crunching.
I like the idea too. I think it's a good value add that rounds out a lot of the different builds without making anything too OP. It has an important tradeoff and generally I think this is a really interesting idea.
The issue is that its a specific racial feature of the halfling that allows them to hide. I alwasy felt that the in combat "hide" isnt a dissapear into smoke but more a ducking out of sight so that the no longer know exactly where your attack will come from
The issue is that its a specific racial feature of the halfling that allows them to hide. I alwasy felt that the in combat "hide" isnt a dissapear into smoke but more a ducking out of sight so that the no longer know exactly where your attack will come from
Your turn represents about 6 seconds or less, so if someone popped out and then hide behind some crap you would lose track of them too, like in a FPS when there is a guy that just pelts you with a few shots and ducks away and you have no clue where they are
The net idea is funny, but it doesn’t work. Sneak Attack requires Finesse or Ranged, but net is Thrown, not Ranged. You’d have to have a gnome design a spring-loaded net launcher to make this work.
The net idea is funny, but it doesn’t work. Sneak Attack requires Finesse or Ranged, but net is Thrown, not Ranged. You’d have to have a gnome design a spring-loaded net launcher to make this work.
By raw, a net can be used to sneak attack, even if it is a weird way to do so. Sneak attack says, "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon." its that last part that allows a net to be used. Not the ranged property, but the item itself must be ranged, and a net is a ranged martial weapon, so it can be used for sneak attack if it meets the other requirements.
edit: I did check sage advice for this because i found it interesting. In short, Mike Mearls says no because a net doesn't have an initial damage, but the dm can rule otherwise. So how I would do is if the player had a barbed net that dealt damage then it would work, but not with the base net.
Sneak attack damage from throwing a net is just dumb. At a certain point you kinda just need to say that if something is absurd, then it doesn't work. It should be common sense that someone throwing a regular old net on a person won't actually hurt. Also a net is not ranged or finesse so you cannot do this RAW. You certainly can't do this RAI. A DM can rule whatever but... come on.
Sneak attack damage from throwing a net is just dumb. At a certain point you kinda just need to say that if something is absurd, then it doesn't work. It should be common sense that someone throwing a regular old net on a person won't actually hurt. Also a net is not ranged or finesse so you cannot do this RAW. You certainly can't do this RAI. A DM can rule whatever but... come on.
Also this is off topic!
Have you ever had a net thrown on you? When you fall to the ground and skin your knee or break your arm. Are you going to say that wasn’t caused by the net?
Sneak attack damage from throwing a net is just dumb. At a certain point you kinda just need to say that if something is absurd, then it doesn't work. It should be common sense that someone throwing a regular old net on a person won't actually hurt. Also a net is not ranged or finesse so you cannot do this RAW. You certainly can't do this RAI. A DM can rule whatever but... come on.
Also this is off topic!
Have you ever had a net thrown on you? When you fall to the ground and skin your knee or break your arm. Are you going to say that wasn’t caused by the net?
I like the aim feature, but it can be abused by ranged rogues. My suggestion would be to limit the aim action to a 30 to 50 ft range, whatever balances the best. It makes the aim cost a bit more to use it by leaving the Rogue more vulnerable. It also makes sense thematically. In order to get the "vital damage" given by sneak attack, you'd have to be close enough to take a good shot.
Well of they are not giving you stealth they are either war gamers or don't know how the mechanic works, when you hide if you roll higher than a creatures passive perception they are un aware of your presence more over a creatures head cant rotate 360 degrees, if you stab or shoot a creature on your turn they can't actually look for you until there turn of witch of your hiding again they wont know where you are unless that want to try to use there action to look got you and even then if they are fighting more than one thing the creature might assume they are getting attacked by the other creatures on top of that if you are dealing with creatures with darkvision and it is dark that means the creatures in said dark will be seeing in shades of grey and in dim light so that's disadvantage on perceptions checks.
So your lesson is to stay behind creatures and behind full or half cover, use your magic Items to your advantage (cloak of elfenkind works like solid snakes camouflage in MGS4 by changing colors to match the environment) and to better lean how mechanic works, and common sense in combat.
The whole hide as a bonus to always have advantage on there attacks to make the most of there one attack per round, and if you really don't care what you main weapon will be pick a shortbow because of the ease it allows for ducking in and out of cover, longbow if you can get it.
Not just eleven accuracy. 100% sneak attack damage die rates.
edit: “but but you can hide and get the advantage...”
hiding goes against a perception check or passive perceptions. You guys ever play high level campaigns? Lots of things with 30+ passive perceptions. You ever try hiding?
you cannot hide from everything. It’s not 100%
aim. It is 100%. Period.
that is too abusable in the way it’s designed.
sure, DM can work hard to prevent you from always being able to use your bow from X distance. Well out of range of threat and such and aiming. But again. Picture how this is too a useable.
flying races and aim.
You can aim standing directly next to an enemy.
Now it’s like relentless assault but without the enemy getting advantage back against you.
There’s just too many ways aim is exploitable.
Blank
Not to mention. This is a 2 level dip in rogue to get.
i guarantee you. You can make a completely ridiculous crit fisher build multiclassing with a 2 level rogue dip for this.
edit:
off the top of my head. Eleven accuracy. Aim. Rogue 2 levels. Fighter 3 champion for improved crit. And 15 levels of Bard - college of whispers. For 8d6 psychic blades.
1 attack. From range. Not including any other feats etc.
weapon attack d6/d8
psychic blades 8d6 psychic
sneak attack 1d6
crits on 19 or 20. 3 rolls.
28% chance to crit.
edit2: I guarantee there’s better than that too.
Blank
You'd be better off just taking 17 levels of rogue and 3 levels of fighter, or actually 15 levels rogue and 5 levels fighter to get your crit fishing build. That said, UA material isn't designed with multiclassing in mind. If I were designing this for a final release, I'd put it higher like maybe 5 or 6. Even if it stays, there are still better low level dips. Hexblade Warlock or fighter are still better dips. Barbarian is an equally good dip for crit fishing without a lot of the negatives.
They could also unlock Aim at a certain level to balance it.
At high level, I guess it's better to use your cunning action for something else than putting a cross on your movement. It becomes situational, not mandatory. But I still think Aim should be a part of an archetype. Assassin comes to my mind, obviously, or perhaps Inquisitive or Scout?
I won't refuse an easy way to get advantage with my Thief, but I'm afraid Aim could be the best option to do EVERY turn, using others options only for the roleplay.
Yeah mostly falls under edit 2.
but the 15 levels of bard scenario I painted. Also means you’re “primarily a spell caster”
edit: a spellcaster that can put up an Antimagic field and action surge and do that sneak attack crit fisher damage chance all in the same go. If they so want.
Blank
It seems I am one of the few who actually like this idea. I am playing a Tortle Arcane Archer Assassin in a very open world campaign with over 30 players all over the world. 5 players per game session means its not always the same party. Sometimes we are fighter heavy and Sneak Attack is easy to get (unless DM throws a 2:1 ratio), other times its all mages and its never more than one person in melee at a time. Hiding has not been a option from the layouts of the battlefield; underwater, darkness, open fields, etc. We are also still in relatively low-levels.
I enjoy the idea that an archery based character concept can benefit from Cunning Aim to essentially wait until the target's focus is drawn away within those 6 seconds for maximum efficiency. But I am looking at this through an RP lens and less number crunching.
I like the idea too. I think it's a good value add that rounds out a lot of the different builds without making anything too OP. It has an important tradeoff and generally I think this is a really interesting idea.
Has anyone heard how long until this set of UA will become usable in Beyond?
no set date (as the usual), but they said that it'll take longer than they'd like due to how much content was in that UA
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I would pick this for a ranged rogue, I would even get it when it would have been a feat.
The issue is that its a specific racial feature of the halfling that allows them to hide. I alwasy felt that the in combat "hide" isnt a dissapear into smoke but more a ducking out of sight so that the no longer know exactly where your attack will come from
Your turn represents about 6 seconds or less, so if someone popped out and then hide behind some crap you would lose track of them too, like in a FPS when there is a guy that just pelts you with a few shots and ducks away and you have no clue where they are
The net idea is funny, but it doesn’t work. Sneak Attack requires Finesse or Ranged, but net is Thrown, not Ranged. You’d have to have a gnome design a spring-loaded net launcher to make this work.
By raw, a net can be used to sneak attack, even if it is a weird way to do so. Sneak attack says, "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon." its that last part that allows a net to be used. Not the ranged property, but the item itself must be ranged, and a net is a ranged martial weapon, so it can be used for sneak attack if it meets the other requirements.
edit: I did check sage advice for this because i found it interesting. In short, Mike Mearls says no because a net doesn't have an initial damage, but the dm can rule otherwise. So how I would do is if the player had a barbed net that dealt damage then it would work, but not with the base net.
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Sneak attack damage from throwing a net is just dumb. At a certain point you kinda just need to say that if something is absurd, then it doesn't work. It should be common sense that someone throwing a regular old net on a person won't actually hurt. Also a net is not ranged or finesse so you cannot do this RAW. You certainly can't do this RAI. A DM can rule whatever but... come on.
Also this is off topic!
Have you ever had a net thrown on you? When you fall to the ground and skin your knee or break your arm. Are you going to say that wasn’t caused by the net?
Blank
Sarcasm?
I like the aim feature, but it can be abused by ranged rogues. My suggestion would be to limit the aim action to a 30 to 50 ft range, whatever balances the best. It makes the aim cost a bit more to use it by leaving the Rogue more vulnerable. It also makes sense thematically. In order to get the "vital damage" given by sneak attack, you'd have to be close enough to take a good shot.
Aim only works on one attack.