Been many years since I've played so I'm considering my self a new player again.
Started a campaign yesterday. Dinged lvl 3. Playing rogue. I'd like to go with more of a ranged build rather than melee. Probably didn't choose the best race, going with Drow Elf. But the campaign has been all subterranean so I guess so far it's been ok. So I don't think I disadvantaged myself too much.
Anyways...being a new player, playing with a new DM, I'd like to try to keep it a more simple build. I see a lot of talk about muli-classing and a lot of what seems to be more advanced options that I have no clue about. Just need some guidance as to how to proceed.
You don't need to multiclass. Going straight rogue is fine! And I think Drow is a fine choice.
Pick which rogue archetype appeals to you most and go with that. Stay away from the ones that deal with melee rogues, but other than that you won't go too wrong. Put your ability score increases in to Dex.
Also depending on which kind of weapon you'll use take a look at the "Crossbow expert" (allowing you a second attack with your bonus action if using Handcrossbows) and "Sharpshooter" (increase in range and possible damage bonus). You could also take a look at "Sulker" depending on how you DM is treating stealth / hide action / dim light.
Drow elf is note the perfect race for rogue correct but so long as you're having fun with your character and you want to play it this way (for story reasons or style) it's style a great choice for you :) You won't feel underpower because of it that's for sure.
One option is to go to level 4 as Rogue-Assassin, and then multi class into Ranger-Gloom Stalker. In a subterranean campaign, this would be a fun build. I would recommend to choose either the Sharpshooter feat or +2 Dex at level 4 before multi-classing into Ranger. You would need to have at least 13 Wisdom to do this, though. You would have a really powerful first turn of combat with this build, and you'd be invisible in the dark to enemies relying on dark vision. Assassin can be a very tough subclass to use because getting a surprise round can be really difficult. But with 120ft dark vision from being Drow and using a Longbow, and a campaign heavy on fighting in the dark, you might be in the optimal situation to actually get the surprise round that is so essential to making Assassin work.
If you don't multi-class, I'm partial to Arcane Trickster because I like having access to magic. The level 1 enchantment and illusion spells aren't that great, but Wizard has some pretty nice level 2 enchantment and illusion spells. It's also really nice getting the improved mage hand and a couple more cantrips.
If you're not as interested in having magic to supplement your Rogue skills, I'm not sure which subclass to choose.
Thanks everyone...one more question...talk to my DM who has graciously allowed me to play around with my character a little and fine tune him some since I'm new, he's new, new campaign, pretty much the whole party are new players...it's all a learning experience for us. And since we are planning to take these PC's for the long haul...he wants us to be happy with them since hopefully they will continue through multiple campaigns and eventually hit max level.
So...with that said...I'm not re-rolling stats but allowed to re-allot them. Dex is a no brainer. I figure strength is too. Keeping in mind I plan to try to be more of a ranged damage dealer with some thief/lock picking/perception utility....my current stats are:
Str - 10, Dex - 18, Con - 11, Int - 17, Wis - 10, Cha - 12
Dex will obviously get the 18 and Str the 10. But I've read some guides and they are saying different things for Con and Cha and Wis. Most seem to put Intel down at the bottom just above Str.
So what say you? Also, any skills or expertise that I should make sure that I grab for this build? Currently have Acrobatics, Insight, Investigation, Stealth as proficiencies and Perception and Thief's tools as expertise.
Again...appreciate all the help. As a new player...it's kinda over whelming and the more stuff I read and watch the more confused I get since every guide seems to say something different.
I'm currently playing a Rogue Assassin that primarily uses a short bow, so I have some experience here. It's going to come down to a few things for how you want to allocate stats
Intelligence - A lot of people use intelligence as a dump stat, because its not directly tied to anything that will directly benefit your class (unless your going Arcane Trickster). But as the rogue your the go to guy for picking locks and disarming traps, I've had DMs use either perception or investigation for searching for traps. If your DM uses investigation then your intelligence has a little more value than average. Other than that its used for a few skill checks that come up here and there in most games, but aren't utilized as regularly as things like stealth and perception. So I try not to make it a dump stat completely but I don't prioritize it really.
Constitution - This is pretty much an useful stat for most classes. I'm not saying you can't play with a low con, but it is directly tied to your overall survival because it ends up adding health at each level up equal to your modifier. Its not a huge boost, but I usually prefer to have a decent Con if I can.
Charisma - This is another stat that for most rogues isn't of much direct use to your class features (although I think Swashbuckler uses it for something). So it comes down to how much your game leans into the social elements of RP, but as a rogue your not usually needed to be the face of the party. But if your game leans heavily into RP then it can be worthwhile. Also worth noting is that the Assassin's level 9 and 13 features are primarily RP focused and would benefit from a higher Charisma, but I don't really see them coming up often unless your in a very heavy RP game.
Wisdom - This is a stat that can be quite useful for a rogue, or really anyone. Your Perception and Insight are checks that come up quite often, at least in my experience. Personally while my Assassin is a ranged killer, he also acts as a point man while moving through dungeons. I have expertise in perception so that I can see most threats coming and can spot out the traps to prevent my party from tripping them. Also if your DM utilizes Passive Perception it can be ridiculous with expertise and a decent stat in it.
Personally the way I'd allocate your stats would be:
Str - 10, Dex - 18, Con - 12, Int - 10, Wis - 17, Cha - 11
Your biggest concern though is basically landing the sneak attack. Anything you can take that will help you hit is incredibly useful. So when you can I would definitely take Expertise in Stealth, its almost a no brainer for a rogue. Most combat rounds for me is to pop out of my hiding spot from a previous round and take a shot at an enemy with advantage thanks to having been hidden. Then I use my bonus action to hide again in anticipation of doing it again.
Another thing I've found unbelievably helpful is the Sharpshooter feat. The +10 damage for a -5 penalty to your attack is okay against weaker or slow enemies, but since the real damage comes from sneak attacking I find I don't use it for that too often because I want to increase my odds of hitting. What I do find invaluable is the ignoring of partial cover. Half cover is +2 to your enemies AC and 3/4 cover is +5, but I never have to worry about that as long as I can see some of them.
Other feats to look at are Crossbow Expert to remove the penalty for using a ranged weapon in melee range of an enemy, Alert for the bonus to initiative, Observant for the boost in passive perception (if your DM uses it, many don't), and Skulker will let you hide easier and prevent a missed shot from revealing your position. Oh and since your a Drow the feat Elven Accuracy from Xanathar's is amazing, it's basically like super advantage because you get to reroll a die if you had advantage on a shot. Also you get a +1 to a skill of your choice Dex, Int, Wis, or Cha, which can round out an odd stat to give you a +1 to your modifier.
Yeah...rolling as a Drow I'm limited to hand crossbow. Or at least that's what my proficiency is in. Kinda wish I had long bow but I guess it is what it is. I didn't decide I wanted to go ranged until I already rolled and started to play or I probably would have went a different direction. Might still see if it would be a big deal if I swap out for a different sub-race. I like the idea of having that 120 foot dark vision though since our campaign is in a dungeon...but honestly...so far standard elf 60 foot dark vision would be plenty for what we've encountered so far. I'll have to weight it out and decide before next session.
Thanks for all the great info too. I appreciate it. Gives me some stuff to think about.
If you multiclass into Ranger or Fighter, you can get proficiency in all martial weapons, which lets you use a Longbow. You also get to choose the Archery Fighting style (at level 1 as fighter, at level 2 as Ranger) to get +2 to attack rolls. Ranger and Fighter both give excellent other features, too. Especially if you take one of those two classes to level 3 and choose an archetype. Gloom Stalker is especially awesome in your specific campaign. Battlemaster is probably the best choice if you go with Fighter. Action Surge and Second Wind are both great abilities, whereas the Ranger gets spellcasting, including the iconic Ranger spell Hunter's Mark
Hand crossbows work! If you're going Hand Crossbows, when you get a chance, get Crossbow Expert feat - then you can fire two of them. As a rogue, you want to maximize your chances of hitting at least once per turn to get sneak attack, so the actual damage die of the weapon doesn't *really* matter that much. Two crossbow attacks is safer for that than one longbow attack (unless it's at super high range, of course.)
(By the way, as a rogue, you can also use a shortbow for a bit of extra range if you want it.)
Rogue is pretty heavily focused on DEX (hiding, ranged or finesse attacks) so as long as you put DEX as your highest stat you'll be fine. Then for your secondary stat you should decide what you want to also be good at.
CON - lets you take some hits. Probably less useful for a ranged rogue, unless you have a very small party. But generically useful, more HP never hurts.
INT - if you want to do lots of Investigating, or if you want to branch out and get some spells with Arcane Trickster. AT is a good fit for a ranged rogue so a good choice.
WIS - excellent for Perception, which is used pretty often. Also good for Inquisitive rogue.
CHA - fits with the rogues endless proficiencies, you can be the party Face with deception, persuasion, etc.
...honestly, for that second stat, if you're looking to optimize, I'd just go with whatever's least covered by the rest of the party. No tank? Get CON. No wizard? Get INT. No CHA caster? Get CHA. Everyone has no perception? Get WIS. Or if you're looking to RP, pick whatever fits your character.
Maybe this is coming across poorly in text posts, but it seems to me you're worried *way* too much about getting something wrong and being underpowered. You'll be fine! Really! If you go straight rogue, keep DEX as your highest ability score, you are 95% of the way to a perfectly optimized rogue. Seriously. Given that you got 18 dex, you're already more powerful than probably any perfectly optimized level 3 rogue that uses the standard array of ability scores and thus can't have 18 dex yet.
That's one of the reasons I'd personally recommend not multiclassing, by the way. If you go straight rogue, you basically can't go wrong. All the rogue archetypes are fine, put your ASIs into DEX to hit 20 dex, and get feats related to the type of weapons you want to use or the type of stuff you want to do, and you will be super effective. You seem really worried about "getting it wrong", and if you multiclass, it's a lot easier to end up with useless abilities that don't help your character than if you just go single-class all the way up.
(By the way, as a rogue, you can also use a shortbow for a bit of extra range if you want it.)
Maybe this is coming across poorly in text posts, but it seems to me you're worried *way* too much about getting something wrong and being underpowered. You'll be fine! Really! If you go straight rogue, keep DEX as your highest ability score, you are 95% of the way to a perfectly optimized rogue. Seriously. Given that you got 18 dex, you're already more powerful than probably any perfectly optimized level 3 rogue that uses the standard array of ability scores and thus can't have 18 dex yet.
Ok...so I'm a little confused. So proficiencies stack? Race and class? Because yes, Rogue does say simple weapons (short bow) but Drow only mentions hand crossbow.
And you are correct. I'm in a really chill group with a really chill DM. We are all except for one guy. I'm not new but I haven't played since v3.5 and even then...I didn't get to play a whole lot. So I do consider myself a mostly new player and definitely new to 5th Ed. I just don't want to mess up with my build or my play. I want to do the best I can for the party and of course for myself. Especially since the long term plan is to knock out this campaign then move onto another one with the same PC's and then eventually into some homebrew stuff as the DM gets more comfortable.
The drow weapon proficiences are bonus that are granted to you by the race rather than the class. So, the drow weapons are in addition to what you get as a rogue. I'd be using a light x-bow in your case.
For tactics, you're going to want to hide early and often to get advantage for sneak attack. As a rogue, it's a bonus action for you. Arcane trickster can help, as you can pick up minor illusion to create a stalagmite or rock or giant mushroom to hide behind if you can't find something natural to hide behind. Drow faerie fire will help too. Getting that advantage is going to be important to you.
It looks like your stats are rolled. I'd recommend dropping that 17 into your dex. With the racial +2, you will have a 19 dex. At level 4, you'll take the Elven Accuracy feat, when you have advantage, you will roll three dice instead of two and use the best roll. It will also raise your dex to the cap of 20, so all of your additional ASI for other stats or feats. While I mentioned arcane trickster above for spell help in getting advantage, I'd think in the underdark, you should be able to get advantage pretty easily anyway. The rest of your stats are probably going to be based on your archetype. My two favorites are Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler. I'd take the 16 you currently have in dex (assuming it's a 16+2 from racial) and put it in CON for the hit points. I'd drop the 11 into Charisma, and let the drow's +1 bump it to a 12. The other 11 probably to Int, but it doesn't really matter. 10s go to wis and str. I'd personally take swashbuckler in your case unless you are short on magic users, then I'd take arcane trickster to fill in some utility spell casting.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The Swashbuckler archetype gives three bonuses at level 3, two of which are for melee only, and one of which depends on your charisma modifier. The level 9 bonus also is dependent on your charisma modifier. Choosing Swashbuckler as a ranged Rogue with just +1 in Charisma is a very poor choice. It is possible to screw up your character without multiclassing, and playing a ranged Rogue Swashbuckler with barely any charisma bonus is a great way to do that.
A hand crossbow has just a 30ft range which makes it very limited. Especially if you're trying to find hiding places to hide with a bonus action (and therefore can't use your bonus action to attack). You also won't get the advantage of being hidden when you do your Bonus Action attack. It also makes it fairly necessary to choose the Crossbow Expert feat.
I think a better option is to use a Short Bow, or to take 1 level in Fighter for the Archery Fighting Style (+2 to attack rolls) and use a Longbow. And either way, take Elven Accuracy at level 4 instead of taking the Crossbow Expert feat. There's also the option to do a full multi-class and not a one level dip, and to do a Rogue - Assassin Ranger- Gloom Stalker multiclass. In an underground campaign like this one, it's a fantastic choice. You can choose the Underdark as your favored terrain as a Drow, and then at level 3 you become invisible in the dark to creatures relying on dark vision (and you get an extra attack on the first round and a bonus to initiative). And of course at level 2 you get the Archery Fighting Style and Hunter's Mark.
the character would not be screwed up in the slightest. Base rogue is good enough to do so. The OP looks like a new player. Trying to keep things from being too complex so that features are forgotten is pretty key.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Why recommend Swashbuckler to a guy that wants to play a ranged Rogue? Did you not bother to read what bonuses a Swashbuckler gets?
It would have been quite easy to recommend Scout instead. But for some reason you chose Swashbuckler. You may enjoy playing a Swashbuckler melee Rogue, but that's not what he's looking to do. He made it quite clear that he's looking to play ranged, and then you recommended an Archetype that gives bonuses for melee and for being within 5ft.
As a new player I would recommend staying Rogue and not worry about multiclassing. If you know what you are doing then multiclassing can be powerful, but if you don't then you can end up making choices that make your character worse.
Proficiency wise, you have all the weapon and tool proficiencies granted by your race, class and background. In your case, the Rogue class already grants proficiency with rapiers, shortswords and hand crossbows. It also grants proficiency with shortbows and light crossbows.
As you are now 3rd level you have a subclass to choose. As others have mentioned they are all good, although some are more melee focused than others.
Assassin looks good on paper but is all about that first turn surprise attack, which can be difficult to get every combat, although it is easier to get with a ranged rather than a melee Rogue.
Arcane Trickster can be fun to add some magic to your build, but it uses Int and most Illusion or Enchantment spells require a save. Your Faerie Fire spell also requires a save but the DC is Cha-based so you would have to decide which is more important to you. It is also not a Wizard spell so you couldn't pick up an Int version via the subclass.
Thief is your basic Rogue and has a few fun uses, although Use Magic Device is level 13. Fast Hands and the Healer feat makes for a useful combat medic.
Mastermind and Inquisitive are interesting subclasses but are best for campaigns leaning more heavily on the social pillar of the game.
Swashbuckler is melee focused, don't choose it for a ranged character
Scout is an interesting one, and given your current location may be the most thematic. Much more focused on adding mobility, it also gives expertise in two skills that are not usually Rogue skills, but if your party lacks a Ranger or a Druid these are skills your party could be lacking.
At level 4 you will gain an ASI. Are the stats pre- or post- racial adjustment? Assuming the stats are post-racial adjustment putting +2 into Dex to turn that 18 into 20 wouldn't be a bad choice, otherwise as a ranged character I would recommend the Sharpshooter feat. Most people would recommend Crossbow Expert for the Bonus Action attack with a hand crossbow but I think that is a bad choice for the first feat, I would take it after Sharpshooter for the following reasons
Hand crossbows are short range, while their maximum range is 120ft, any attack over 30ft has disadvantage and therefore no sneak attack.
Given the limited range, I would actually recommend using a light crossbow instead, basic range is 80ft with a max of 320ft, it is also a d8 weapon. Crossbow Expert offers a Rogue very little when not using a Hand Crossbow.
You have plenty of things you can do with your Bonus Action already.
Sharpshooter ignores most forms of cover, this is effectively an accuracy bonus, meaning you are more likely to sneak attack NPCs not fully in the open.
Sharpshooter also removes the disadvantage from shooting at long range, meaning a hand crossbow could sneak attack at up to 120ft, and a light crossbow or shortbow could theoretically sneak attack at up to 320ft.
Magic ranged weapons are rare and magic hand crossbows are almost non-existant (especially in published adventures). Taking Crossbow Expert incentivises you to continue using hand crossbows, and so you are reliant on your DM being considerate enough to provide a magic one for you. Some DMs are better at this than others.
Why recommend Swashbuckler to a guy that wants to play a ranged Rogue? Did you not bother to read what bonuses a Swashbuckler gets?
It would have been quite easy to recommend Scout instead. But for some reason you chose Swashbuckler. You may enjoy playing a Swashbuckler melee Rogue, but that's not what he's looking to do. He made it quite clear that he's looking to play ranged, and then you recommended an Archetype that gives bonuses for melee and for being within 5ft.
Because I feel like swashbuckler is still useful to ranged rogues. Sometimes you get stuck in melee range. Bonus to init is always useful. I didn't recommend scout, because the features don't look that useful to me. Rakish Audacity gets even better if he takes crossbow expert at some point. Panache is going to be useful in non-combat situations. The bonus movement, on an archer particularly, does not look very useful. I very rarely have ever felt, oh man, I sure wish I had an extra 10 ft movement. Sure it DOES come up, but it's pretty rare, especially for ranged characters who chill in the back.
Ambush master is good, I'll give you that. Most rogues I have seen in play can really benefit from advantage on acrobatics checks though too from elegant maneuver. I've yet to see a single one in play that's not always trying to do something cool and constantly hearing "roll athletics", but maybe that's just my groups.
If he wasn't a new player, I'd say arcane trickster, hands down. But he did. Swashbucklers is a KISS rogue, that's good in all situations and isn't overwhelming. Scout? Meh. Not impressed at all.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Both swashbuckler or scout would be good in this case. Scout if you want to use your reaction to get out of melee range without attack of opportunity. Then attack ranged on your turn.
That 10 feet can turn into 5 more feet away in that case, and 10 more on your actual turn which can be really helpful
Or swashbuckler if you don't mind using your turn as a melee to hit then move without attack of opportunity. It's more flavor than one being better than the other. Plus if it's a long game scout will eventually be able to hit two sneak attacks on a turn.
I would simply add that since you guys are going in for a long time in this/those campaign you should consider all parts of the game.
I don't know what style is your DM rp/combat wise but if he plan to be running long campaigns you'll get plenty of RP times so don't just consider the combat part if you think that will be the case.
The rogue sub-classes (compare to some other class) can be all really fun to play if they fit what you imagine your character should be.
You guys are all new (kinda) to this so don't put too much pressure on yourself about it, feel free to experiment. If you play smart and remember to do it for the fun of it you won't go wrong about this.
Why recommend Swashbuckler to a guy that wants to play a ranged Rogue? Did you not bother to read what bonuses a Swashbuckler gets?
It would have been quite easy to recommend Scout instead. But for some reason you chose Swashbuckler. You may enjoy playing a Swashbuckler melee Rogue, but that's not what he's looking to do. He made it quite clear that he's looking to play ranged, and then you recommended an Archetype that gives bonuses for melee and for being within 5ft.
Because I feel like swashbuckler is still useful to ranged rogues. Sometimes you get stuck in melee range. Bonus to init is always useful. I didn't recommend scout, because the features don't look that useful to me. Rakish Audacity gets even better if he takes crossbow expert at some point. Panache is going to be useful in non-combat situations. The bonus movement, on an archer particularly, does not look very useful. I very rarely have ever felt, oh man, I sure wish I had an extra 10 ft movement. Sure it DOES come up, but it's pretty rare, especially for ranged characters who chill in the back.
Ambush master is good, I'll give you that. Most rogues I have seen in play can really benefit from advantage on acrobatics checks though too from elegant maneuver. I've yet to see a single one in play that's not always trying to do something cool and constantly hearing "roll athletics", but maybe that's just my groups.
If he wasn't a new player, I'd say arcane trickster, hands down. But he did. Swashbucklers is a KISS rogue, that's good in all situations and isn't overwhelming. Scout? Meh. Not impressed at all.
I get the feeling that you've never played a ranged Rogue.
I've played two different Rogues that used Long bows, and I've never had any difficulty staying out of melee when I wanted to be out of melee. The extra movement comes in handy quite often, more for a Rogue than any other class. If you're chasing somebody or being chased by somebody, that extra 10ft of movement is huge. Rogues seem to have a knack for being chased or chasing people.
The Swashbuckler bonuses are for melee. You're trying to give him advice how to play a character like your character, but that's not what he's asking for. He's not trying to be your melee Swashbuckler that you enjoyed. He's interested in playing a ranged Rogue. People that want to play ranged Rogues normally want to play ranged because they want to stay out of melee and out of danger. He's made it clear that he would like to use a longbow, and that he took Drow partly for the 120ft dark vision because he liked the ability to be far away and to still see what is going on. He's not interested in playing a melee rogue. He's not interested in hanging out close to danger so that he can get "stuck in melee".
I get it that you enjoyed playing a melee Swashbuckler Rogue. But if someone wants advice for how to play a ranged Rogue, that's not a cue for you to recommend that they emulate your melee Swashbuckler.
Swashbuckler is definitely a "simpler" way to play a ranged Rogue, because you're getting fewer abilities. But in that same way, a level 1 Rogue is "simpler" than a level 10 Rogue. That's what makes the game fun: getting more abilities. Choosing an archetype that doesn't have any abilities that you'll get to use does make the game simpler. But in a bad way. Recommending that he choose an archetype because he won't use the abilities granted by that archetype, and therefore it makes it "simpler" is pretty ridiculous. Why not just recommend that he multi-class into Wizard but never use any of the spellcasting abilities? That would be simpler than leveling up as Rogue and getting Uncanny Dodge and other Rogue abilities that he would actually use. Getting abilities that you'll use is a good thing, not a bad thing.
For that reason, choosing a melee archetype when you want to play a ranged Rogue is a bad thing, and not a good thing.
Honestly, I am not a huge rogue fan, but I've seen many of them in play. they're simply not my cup of tea. We'll have to agree to disagree, because what I have seen in practice, swashbucklers make fine archers. My DM's girlfriend played a swashbuckler intending to melee, and ended up using it in ranged combat all the time because it was simply more effective than melee. Just because the abilities are melee focused, do not mean they are useless on a ranged character. As I said previously, if I was going to play a ranged rogue, I'd play an arcane trickster. For a new player, I would not make the same recommendation that I make for a veteran. IMO Scout sucks. Thief sucks. I would never recommend them. Assassin is even worse. Arcane Trickster is awesome, but if a player doesn't have the experience to use it properly they could easily struggle with getting the most of of it.
That leaves swashbuckler. The features are simple and useful, especially for a new player that's not as skilled at avoiding being in melee combat via positioning. So don't patronize me with "my" swashbuckler that I have never played. I have solid reasons for the suggestion, and it's OK that you disagree with them, but I'd suggest that you put yourself in the position of a new player who isn't familiar with positioning and tactics then ask yourself again, which abilities might find more use. A bonus to init is always useful. Being able to slip out of bad situations is useful. Crossbow Expert allows you to stand toe to toe in melee...with your bow...if necessary and still get your sneak attack, should you choose to take it before the bonus action to disengage and move away. Panache is useful in social situations (sucks for combat, but hey...the game isn't all combat).
So no, this is not about my uber swashbuckler. This is about an easy, fun ranged rogue with solid options for most situations because new players will find themselves in unsavory situations.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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Been many years since I've played so I'm considering my self a new player again.
Started a campaign yesterday. Dinged lvl 3. Playing rogue. I'd like to go with more of a ranged build rather than melee. Probably didn't choose the best race, going with Drow Elf. But the campaign has been all subterranean so I guess so far it's been ok. So I don't think I disadvantaged myself too much.
Anyways...being a new player, playing with a new DM, I'd like to try to keep it a more simple build. I see a lot of talk about muli-classing and a lot of what seems to be more advanced options that I have no clue about. Just need some guidance as to how to proceed.
You don't need to multiclass. Going straight rogue is fine! And I think Drow is a fine choice.
Pick which rogue archetype appeals to you most and go with that. Stay away from the ones that deal with melee rogues, but other than that you won't go too wrong. Put your ability score increases in to Dex.
Also depending on which kind of weapon you'll use take a look at the "Crossbow expert" (allowing you a second attack with your bonus action if using Handcrossbows) and "Sharpshooter" (increase in range and possible damage bonus). You could also take a look at "Sulker" depending on how you DM is treating stealth / hide action / dim light.
Drow elf is note the perfect race for rogue correct but so long as you're having fun with your character and you want to play it this way (for story reasons or style) it's style a great choice for you :) You won't feel underpower because of it that's for sure.
One option is to go to level 4 as Rogue-Assassin, and then multi class into Ranger-Gloom Stalker. In a subterranean campaign, this would be a fun build. I would recommend to choose either the Sharpshooter feat or +2 Dex at level 4 before multi-classing into Ranger. You would need to have at least 13 Wisdom to do this, though. You would have a really powerful first turn of combat with this build, and you'd be invisible in the dark to enemies relying on dark vision. Assassin can be a very tough subclass to use because getting a surprise round can be really difficult. But with 120ft dark vision from being Drow and using a Longbow, and a campaign heavy on fighting in the dark, you might be in the optimal situation to actually get the surprise round that is so essential to making Assassin work.
If you don't multi-class, I'm partial to Arcane Trickster because I like having access to magic. The level 1 enchantment and illusion spells aren't that great, but Wizard has some pretty nice level 2 enchantment and illusion spells. It's also really nice getting the improved mage hand and a couple more cantrips.
If you're not as interested in having magic to supplement your Rogue skills, I'm not sure which subclass to choose.
Thanks everyone...one more question...talk to my DM who has graciously allowed me to play around with my character a little and fine tune him some since I'm new, he's new, new campaign, pretty much the whole party are new players...it's all a learning experience for us. And since we are planning to take these PC's for the long haul...he wants us to be happy with them since hopefully they will continue through multiple campaigns and eventually hit max level.
So...with that said...I'm not re-rolling stats but allowed to re-allot them. Dex is a no brainer. I figure strength is too. Keeping in mind I plan to try to be more of a ranged damage dealer with some thief/lock picking/perception utility....my current stats are:
Str - 10, Dex - 18, Con - 11, Int - 17, Wis - 10, Cha - 12
Dex will obviously get the 18 and Str the 10. But I've read some guides and they are saying different things for Con and Cha and Wis. Most seem to put Intel down at the bottom just above Str.
So what say you? Also, any skills or expertise that I should make sure that I grab for this build? Currently have Acrobatics, Insight, Investigation, Stealth as proficiencies and Perception and Thief's tools as expertise.
Again...appreciate all the help. As a new player...it's kinda over whelming and the more stuff I read and watch the more confused I get since every guide seems to say something different.
I'm currently playing a Rogue Assassin that primarily uses a short bow, so I have some experience here. It's going to come down to a few things for how you want to allocate stats
Intelligence - A lot of people use intelligence as a dump stat, because its not directly tied to anything that will directly benefit your class (unless your going Arcane Trickster). But as the rogue your the go to guy for picking locks and disarming traps, I've had DMs use either perception or investigation for searching for traps. If your DM uses investigation then your intelligence has a little more value than average. Other than that its used for a few skill checks that come up here and there in most games, but aren't utilized as regularly as things like stealth and perception. So I try not to make it a dump stat completely but I don't prioritize it really.
Constitution - This is pretty much an useful stat for most classes. I'm not saying you can't play with a low con, but it is directly tied to your overall survival because it ends up adding health at each level up equal to your modifier. Its not a huge boost, but I usually prefer to have a decent Con if I can.
Charisma - This is another stat that for most rogues isn't of much direct use to your class features (although I think Swashbuckler uses it for something). So it comes down to how much your game leans into the social elements of RP, but as a rogue your not usually needed to be the face of the party. But if your game leans heavily into RP then it can be worthwhile. Also worth noting is that the Assassin's level 9 and 13 features are primarily RP focused and would benefit from a higher Charisma, but I don't really see them coming up often unless your in a very heavy RP game.
Wisdom - This is a stat that can be quite useful for a rogue, or really anyone. Your Perception and Insight are checks that come up quite often, at least in my experience. Personally while my Assassin is a ranged killer, he also acts as a point man while moving through dungeons. I have expertise in perception so that I can see most threats coming and can spot out the traps to prevent my party from tripping them. Also if your DM utilizes Passive Perception it can be ridiculous with expertise and a decent stat in it.
Personally the way I'd allocate your stats would be:
Str - 10, Dex - 18, Con - 12, Int - 10, Wis - 17, Cha - 11
Your biggest concern though is basically landing the sneak attack. Anything you can take that will help you hit is incredibly useful. So when you can I would definitely take Expertise in Stealth, its almost a no brainer for a rogue. Most combat rounds for me is to pop out of my hiding spot from a previous round and take a shot at an enemy with advantage thanks to having been hidden. Then I use my bonus action to hide again in anticipation of doing it again.
Another thing I've found unbelievably helpful is the Sharpshooter feat. The +10 damage for a -5 penalty to your attack is okay against weaker or slow enemies, but since the real damage comes from sneak attacking I find I don't use it for that too often because I want to increase my odds of hitting. What I do find invaluable is the ignoring of partial cover. Half cover is +2 to your enemies AC and 3/4 cover is +5, but I never have to worry about that as long as I can see some of them.
Other feats to look at are Crossbow Expert to remove the penalty for using a ranged weapon in melee range of an enemy, Alert for the bonus to initiative, Observant for the boost in passive perception (if your DM uses it, many don't), and Skulker will let you hide easier and prevent a missed shot from revealing your position. Oh and since your a Drow the feat Elven Accuracy from Xanathar's is amazing, it's basically like super advantage because you get to reroll a die if you had advantage on a shot. Also you get a +1 to a skill of your choice Dex, Int, Wis, or Cha, which can round out an odd stat to give you a +1 to your modifier.
Yeah...rolling as a Drow I'm limited to hand crossbow. Or at least that's what my proficiency is in. Kinda wish I had long bow but I guess it is what it is. I didn't decide I wanted to go ranged until I already rolled and started to play or I probably would have went a different direction. Might still see if it would be a big deal if I swap out for a different sub-race. I like the idea of having that 120 foot dark vision though since our campaign is in a dungeon...but honestly...so far standard elf 60 foot dark vision would be plenty for what we've encountered so far. I'll have to weight it out and decide before next session.
Thanks for all the great info too. I appreciate it. Gives me some stuff to think about.
If you multiclass into Ranger or Fighter, you can get proficiency in all martial weapons, which lets you use a Longbow. You also get to choose the Archery Fighting style (at level 1 as fighter, at level 2 as Ranger) to get +2 to attack rolls. Ranger and Fighter both give excellent other features, too. Especially if you take one of those two classes to level 3 and choose an archetype. Gloom Stalker is especially awesome in your specific campaign. Battlemaster is probably the best choice if you go with Fighter. Action Surge and Second Wind are both great abilities, whereas the Ranger gets spellcasting, including the iconic Ranger spell Hunter's Mark
Hand crossbows work! If you're going Hand Crossbows, when you get a chance, get Crossbow Expert feat - then you can fire two of them. As a rogue, you want to maximize your chances of hitting at least once per turn to get sneak attack, so the actual damage die of the weapon doesn't *really* matter that much. Two crossbow attacks is safer for that than one longbow attack (unless it's at super high range, of course.)
(By the way, as a rogue, you can also use a shortbow for a bit of extra range if you want it.)
Rogue is pretty heavily focused on DEX (hiding, ranged or finesse attacks) so as long as you put DEX as your highest stat you'll be fine. Then for your secondary stat you should decide what you want to also be good at.
CON - lets you take some hits. Probably less useful for a ranged rogue, unless you have a very small party. But generically useful, more HP never hurts.
INT - if you want to do lots of Investigating, or if you want to branch out and get some spells with Arcane Trickster. AT is a good fit for a ranged rogue so a good choice.
WIS - excellent for Perception, which is used pretty often. Also good for Inquisitive rogue.
CHA - fits with the rogues endless proficiencies, you can be the party Face with deception, persuasion, etc.
...honestly, for that second stat, if you're looking to optimize, I'd just go with whatever's least covered by the rest of the party. No tank? Get CON. No wizard? Get INT. No CHA caster? Get CHA. Everyone has no perception? Get WIS. Or if you're looking to RP, pick whatever fits your character.
Maybe this is coming across poorly in text posts, but it seems to me you're worried *way* too much about getting something wrong and being underpowered. You'll be fine! Really! If you go straight rogue, keep DEX as your highest ability score, you are 95% of the way to a perfectly optimized rogue. Seriously. Given that you got 18 dex, you're already more powerful than probably any perfectly optimized level 3 rogue that uses the standard array of ability scores and thus can't have 18 dex yet.
That's one of the reasons I'd personally recommend not multiclassing, by the way. If you go straight rogue, you basically can't go wrong. All the rogue archetypes are fine, put your ASIs into DEX to hit 20 dex, and get feats related to the type of weapons you want to use or the type of stuff you want to do, and you will be super effective. You seem really worried about "getting it wrong", and if you multiclass, it's a lot easier to end up with useless abilities that don't help your character than if you just go single-class all the way up.
Ok...so I'm a little confused. So proficiencies stack? Race and class? Because yes, Rogue does say simple weapons (short bow) but Drow only mentions hand crossbow.
And you are correct. I'm in a really chill group with a really chill DM. We are all except for one guy. I'm not new but I haven't played since v3.5 and even then...I didn't get to play a whole lot. So I do consider myself a mostly new player and definitely new to 5th Ed. I just don't want to mess up with my build or my play. I want to do the best I can for the party and of course for myself. Especially since the long term plan is to knock out this campaign then move onto another one with the same PC's and then eventually into some homebrew stuff as the DM gets more comfortable.
The drow weapon proficiences are bonus that are granted to you by the race rather than the class. So, the drow weapons are in addition to what you get as a rogue. I'd be using a light x-bow in your case.
For tactics, you're going to want to hide early and often to get advantage for sneak attack. As a rogue, it's a bonus action for you. Arcane trickster can help, as you can pick up minor illusion to create a stalagmite or rock or giant mushroom to hide behind if you can't find something natural to hide behind. Drow faerie fire will help too. Getting that advantage is going to be important to you.
It looks like your stats are rolled. I'd recommend dropping that 17 into your dex. With the racial +2, you will have a 19 dex. At level 4, you'll take the Elven Accuracy feat, when you have advantage, you will roll three dice instead of two and use the best roll. It will also raise your dex to the cap of 20, so all of your additional ASI for other stats or feats. While I mentioned arcane trickster above for spell help in getting advantage, I'd think in the underdark, you should be able to get advantage pretty easily anyway. The rest of your stats are probably going to be based on your archetype. My two favorites are Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler. I'd take the 16 you currently have in dex (assuming it's a 16+2 from racial) and put it in CON for the hit points. I'd drop the 11 into Charisma, and let the drow's +1 bump it to a 12. The other 11 probably to Int, but it doesn't really matter. 10s go to wis and str. I'd personally take swashbuckler in your case unless you are short on magic users, then I'd take arcane trickster to fill in some utility spell casting.
https://ddb.ac/characters/22302525/1mCzrp
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The Swashbuckler archetype gives three bonuses at level 3, two of which are for melee only, and one of which depends on your charisma modifier. The level 9 bonus also is dependent on your charisma modifier. Choosing Swashbuckler as a ranged Rogue with just +1 in Charisma is a very poor choice. It is possible to screw up your character without multiclassing, and playing a ranged Rogue Swashbuckler with barely any charisma bonus is a great way to do that.
A hand crossbow has just a 30ft range which makes it very limited. Especially if you're trying to find hiding places to hide with a bonus action (and therefore can't use your bonus action to attack). You also won't get the advantage of being hidden when you do your Bonus Action attack. It also makes it fairly necessary to choose the Crossbow Expert feat.
I think a better option is to use a Short Bow, or to take 1 level in Fighter for the Archery Fighting Style (+2 to attack rolls) and use a Longbow. And either way, take Elven Accuracy at level 4 instead of taking the Crossbow Expert feat. There's also the option to do a full multi-class and not a one level dip, and to do a Rogue - Assassin Ranger- Gloom Stalker multiclass. In an underground campaign like this one, it's a fantastic choice. You can choose the Underdark as your favored terrain as a Drow, and then at level 3 you become invisible in the dark to creatures relying on dark vision (and you get an extra attack on the first round and a bonus to initiative). And of course at level 2 you get the Archery Fighting Style and Hunter's Mark.
the character would not be screwed up in the slightest. Base rogue is good enough to do so. The OP looks like a new player. Trying to keep things from being too complex so that features are forgotten is pretty key.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Why recommend Swashbuckler to a guy that wants to play a ranged Rogue? Did you not bother to read what bonuses a Swashbuckler gets?
It would have been quite easy to recommend Scout instead. But for some reason you chose Swashbuckler. You may enjoy playing a Swashbuckler melee Rogue, but that's not what he's looking to do. He made it quite clear that he's looking to play ranged, and then you recommended an Archetype that gives bonuses for melee and for being within 5ft.
As a new player I would recommend staying Rogue and not worry about multiclassing. If you know what you are doing then multiclassing can be powerful, but if you don't then you can end up making choices that make your character worse.
Proficiency wise, you have all the weapon and tool proficiencies granted by your race, class and background. In your case, the Rogue class already grants proficiency with rapiers, shortswords and hand crossbows. It also grants proficiency with shortbows and light crossbows.
As you are now 3rd level you have a subclass to choose. As others have mentioned they are all good, although some are more melee focused than others.
At level 4 you will gain an ASI. Are the stats pre- or post- racial adjustment? Assuming the stats are post-racial adjustment putting +2 into Dex to turn that 18 into 20 wouldn't be a bad choice, otherwise as a ranged character I would recommend the Sharpshooter feat. Most people would recommend Crossbow Expert for the Bonus Action attack with a hand crossbow but I think that is a bad choice for the first feat, I would take it after Sharpshooter for the following reasons
Because I feel like swashbuckler is still useful to ranged rogues. Sometimes you get stuck in melee range. Bonus to init is always useful. I didn't recommend scout, because the features don't look that useful to me. Rakish Audacity gets even better if he takes crossbow expert at some point. Panache is going to be useful in non-combat situations. The bonus movement, on an archer particularly, does not look very useful. I very rarely have ever felt, oh man, I sure wish I had an extra 10 ft movement. Sure it DOES come up, but it's pretty rare, especially for ranged characters who chill in the back.
Ambush master is good, I'll give you that. Most rogues I have seen in play can really benefit from advantage on acrobatics checks though too from elegant maneuver. I've yet to see a single one in play that's not always trying to do something cool and constantly hearing "roll athletics", but maybe that's just my groups.
If he wasn't a new player, I'd say arcane trickster, hands down. But he did. Swashbucklers is a KISS rogue, that's good in all situations and isn't overwhelming. Scout? Meh. Not impressed at all.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Both swashbuckler or scout would be good in this case. Scout if you want to use your reaction to get out of melee range without attack of opportunity. Then attack ranged on your turn.
That 10 feet can turn into 5 more feet away in that case, and 10 more on your actual turn which can be really helpful
Or swashbuckler if you don't mind using your turn as a melee to hit then move without attack of opportunity. It's more flavor than one being better than the other. Plus if it's a long game scout will eventually be able to hit two sneak attacks on a turn.
I would simply add that since you guys are going in for a long time in this/those campaign you should consider all parts of the game.
I don't know what style is your DM rp/combat wise but if he plan to be running long campaigns you'll get plenty of RP times so don't just consider the combat part if you think that will be the case.
The rogue sub-classes (compare to some other class) can be all really fun to play if they fit what you imagine your character should be.
You guys are all new (kinda) to this so don't put too much pressure on yourself about it, feel free to experiment. If you play smart and remember to do it for the fun of it you won't go wrong about this.
I get the feeling that you've never played a ranged Rogue.
I've played two different Rogues that used Long bows, and I've never had any difficulty staying out of melee when I wanted to be out of melee. The extra movement comes in handy quite often, more for a Rogue than any other class. If you're chasing somebody or being chased by somebody, that extra 10ft of movement is huge. Rogues seem to have a knack for being chased or chasing people.
The Swashbuckler bonuses are for melee. You're trying to give him advice how to play a character like your character, but that's not what he's asking for. He's not trying to be your melee Swashbuckler that you enjoyed. He's interested in playing a ranged Rogue. People that want to play ranged Rogues normally want to play ranged because they want to stay out of melee and out of danger. He's made it clear that he would like to use a longbow, and that he took Drow partly for the 120ft dark vision because he liked the ability to be far away and to still see what is going on. He's not interested in playing a melee rogue. He's not interested in hanging out close to danger so that he can get "stuck in melee".
I get it that you enjoyed playing a melee Swashbuckler Rogue. But if someone wants advice for how to play a ranged Rogue, that's not a cue for you to recommend that they emulate your melee Swashbuckler.
Swashbuckler is definitely a "simpler" way to play a ranged Rogue, because you're getting fewer abilities. But in that same way, a level 1 Rogue is "simpler" than a level 10 Rogue. That's what makes the game fun: getting more abilities. Choosing an archetype that doesn't have any abilities that you'll get to use does make the game simpler. But in a bad way. Recommending that he choose an archetype because he won't use the abilities granted by that archetype, and therefore it makes it "simpler" is pretty ridiculous. Why not just recommend that he multi-class into Wizard but never use any of the spellcasting abilities? That would be simpler than leveling up as Rogue and getting Uncanny Dodge and other Rogue abilities that he would actually use. Getting abilities that you'll use is a good thing, not a bad thing.
For that reason, choosing a melee archetype when you want to play a ranged Rogue is a bad thing, and not a good thing.
Honestly, I am not a huge rogue fan, but I've seen many of them in play. they're simply not my cup of tea. We'll have to agree to disagree, because what I have seen in practice, swashbucklers make fine archers. My DM's girlfriend played a swashbuckler intending to melee, and ended up using it in ranged combat all the time because it was simply more effective than melee. Just because the abilities are melee focused, do not mean they are useless on a ranged character. As I said previously, if I was going to play a ranged rogue, I'd play an arcane trickster. For a new player, I would not make the same recommendation that I make for a veteran. IMO Scout sucks. Thief sucks. I would never recommend them. Assassin is even worse. Arcane Trickster is awesome, but if a player doesn't have the experience to use it properly they could easily struggle with getting the most of of it.
That leaves swashbuckler. The features are simple and useful, especially for a new player that's not as skilled at avoiding being in melee combat via positioning. So don't patronize me with "my" swashbuckler that I have never played. I have solid reasons for the suggestion, and it's OK that you disagree with them, but I'd suggest that you put yourself in the position of a new player who isn't familiar with positioning and tactics then ask yourself again, which abilities might find more use. A bonus to init is always useful. Being able to slip out of bad situations is useful. Crossbow Expert allows you to stand toe to toe in melee...with your bow...if necessary and still get your sneak attack, should you choose to take it before the bonus action to disengage and move away. Panache is useful in social situations (sucks for combat, but hey...the game isn't all combat).
So no, this is not about my uber swashbuckler. This is about an easy, fun ranged rogue with solid options for most situations because new players will find themselves in unsavory situations.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha