If we are talking 2 level dips. Another consideration might be taking two levels of Ranger.
1st level (with Tasha's options) you get a skill, two languages, favored foe (1d4 to add to sneak?), and expertise. 2nd level you get a fighting style, 2 spells known (Hunter's Mark, goodberry/Curewounds?) and two slots.
Between HM and FF you have replaced the missing sneak damage (and it can be more broadly used), you added an expertise, a healing spell close to Second Wind, and got your fighting style.
The missing piece is action surge.
Regardless, I love the idea of grabbing fighting initiate to better realize how you want your character to function.
If we are talking 2 level dips. Another consideration might be taking two levels of Ranger.
1st level (with Tasha's options) you get a skill, two languages, favored foe (1d4 to add to sneak?), and expertise. 2nd level you get a fighting style, 2 spells known (Hunter's Mark, goodberry/Curewounds?) and two slots.
Between HM and FF you have replaced the missing sneak damage (and it can be more broadly used), you added an expertise, a healing spell close to Second Wind, and got your fighting style.
The missing piece is action surge.
Regardless, I love the idea of grabbing fighting initiate to better realize how you want your character to function.
Ranger dip would be great as well with spellcasting and the Tasha's options for sure!
What about the fighter dip that it allows for Archery (+2 attack) and proficiency with longbow (+2for my current level) and ups the range and damage of my ranger weapon to 1d8.
so I’m going from +7 attack 1d6+5 short bow
longbow would be +5 attack 1d8+5 to
longbow +9 attack 1d8+5
Second wind is included, not much but not nothing - and you’re now halfway to action surge, and then one more level from a martial archetype
Rune Knight seems nice.
at worst I’m delaying expertise/ Evasion and missing out on stroke of luck / ASI
Your slowing Down more than just your expertise, evasion, and ASI. Your Also losing as much as 2d6 on your backstab damage for a largely insignificant gain in offensive power. Which seems to be the point for doing it. For rogues the gain between long bow and short bow is really small. You actually get 1 more in average damage on any turn you can get sneak attack from just a single extra 1d6. And your looking at an average of 6 damage if the level spread is set right that your not getting 2d6.
Action Surge Seems nice but it's not a big boost on Rogues overall. Since it doesn't get sneak attack your only talking about 8 to 9 damage on average from the extra attack you can make on a single turn. Sneak attack is making up this different in about 3 turns for just 1d6 and faster for each d6 after that from sneak attack.
With the addition of Steady Aim from tasha's and the way that sneak attack works on it's own already. It's not a light thing to forgo sneak attack damage on a rogue. Your actually potentially giving up quite a bit.
yes Rune Knight could offset the damage a little bit. But it only turns out to actually be more damage if you don't expect the game to go past level 10 at most anyway and perhaps lower than that. But at the same time that also means that the lower the level the game ends at the less actual use you get out of rune knight for all the investment as well.
You are making up for that 7 points of damage DPR wise with a better chance at hitting for the most part. Just hitting more often as a rogue is a big deal as you only get the one attack.
Its totally worth it for the fighting style IMO. Also action surge could allow you to get two sneak attacks off in one turn for a HUGE amount of surge damage when needed:
Action: Attack with bow.
Action Surge: Ready Attack for if enemy moves or attacks.
Off turn: Enemy moves or attacks....you get sneak attack again with your reaction.
I already accounted for that. And your action surge trick is usable like once. That should not be a heavily persuading action. Particularly since you cannot guarantee to trigger it meaning you could have wasted your action surge for nothing.
If the enemy does literally nothing then you kinda won anyway? They just stood there and got shot?
Oh and yes if you are only taking 2 levels in fighter you lose out on 1d6 sneak attack not 2d6 so there is that too. 3.5 damage is EASILY outweighed by a +2 to hit.
Also you get shield prof. so if you did need to wade into the frey you could have a +2 AC. You can also use a whip to proc Sneak Attack from 10ft!
You get a BA heal and a couple of levels of beefier hit die.
The major downside I see is not combat (you are actually way better off offensive combat wise with the fighter dip) but rather that you delay Expertise and Uncanny Dodge...those are the actual hits you take with the dip but I feel if your playstyle is an offensive one you will not regret the fighter 2.
I said it can be as much as 2d6 depending on when the level dip is taken. Not that it is always 2d6. You would know that if you read everything I said instead of just finding reasons to nitpick what I said.
Your also over simplifying when you say "Well if the enemy does nothing then you win anyway." Because there are potentially a lot of things the enemy might do without moving. Such as potentially engage a different party member, Make a ranged attack of their own, Potentially down a potion. Or any of who knows how many other things that they might do with their action without needing to move and triggering your one time use of Action Surge hoping to get a little more sneak attack damage in to claim it as some kind of big offsetting boon.
I'm decided on a single level of fighter or straight rogue. Because I'm not sure how long the campaign will go, it's literally if a single level of fighter for +2 archery and proficiency with longbow is worth it. In game my character recovered a longbow from a sacred creature that my party attacked and I abstained from, so thematically I want to use this bow, but in character I wouldn't use it until I had practiced in downtime enough to be proficient. After talking it out, I think the dip is suited for this character, and from an optimal point of view it seems pretty split opinions with solid reasons for each.
Hopefully I can tie this back to the original thread of Fighting Styles for Rogue, and while I can see the appeal of it, I think they need to use a feat or a multi-class to obtain them. Creating unique to Rogue fighting styles, or including some reasonable ones like archery/ thrown weapon as an Optional rule I think would need to replace existing features like the Optional rules for the Ranger.
This is a far better reason than purely mechanics to make a Dip into another class. It's thematic and fitting and has a heavy story basis behind it. There is no reason not to support this kind of single level dip when it is for these kinds of reasons. it does more for the character than just trying to balance out the pro's and cons of what you gain or lose for a class.
@ Fateless, you seem overly set on convincing mduncan that a fighter dip is a terrible choice in terms of optimization. Based on a 1 level dip, even when at odd levels where you loose a sneak attack die, the difference in damage output will on average be pretty close to 1, once you factor in the higher damage die, and accuracy. You also haven't considered overkill damage on weaker targets, the fact that average damage will be significantly higher on even levels where you get the accuracy, higher damage die, and longer range, and of course the additional proficiencies for martial weapons or armour which the DM may drop magic items for.
It may not be optimal 100% of the time, but it's certainly not a bad choice.
(Also if you're taking it from a purely optimization standpoint, it will almost always be worth the dip with crossbow master unless you have elven accuracy)
If you listen. That is not what I said at all. That may be what your choosing to interpret. perhaps from your interest in supporting a pro-dip stance. All i said. Which MDuncan actually acknowledged was to consider all of the pro's and con's and that there were more potential cons than the ones that he listed for not taking rogue levels.
Thta in no way says "don't take Fighter." Unless you purposefully choose to alter my words in your mind to read it that way. All it says is "Be Aware of your choices and these are also things to consider as part of that." And then everybody wants to jump on me because they don't like the interpretation.
Also. Average Damage is not necessarily Significantly higher. This is a quick math white room scenario estimation. And it's usually not taking into account all of the actual factors. It's usually just looking at 1d8 and going "that's bigger than 1d6" so that's going to be stronger. Without taking in other real factors. And as I said. The 10% while it can be helpful. It's primary helpfulness is most seen in specific scenario's and within specific thresh-holds. This is entirely true. Against Creatures that your hitting almost all the time anyway because of other factors about your style of fighting. And the Way that your Class and Character generates damage. These so called forgone conclusion surface bonuses aren't necessarily what they are portrayed from surface level quick math.
Also. He wasn't initially talking about just one level. That changes up various factors as well when your talking about 1 level versus 3 levels. You start losing a lot more from something like the Rogue the more levels you start side tracking away from Rogue if mainly being a rogue with just a dip is your intention. So you need to be aware of when your doing it and how much things are changing for all of those levels and not just level 1. They tend to make quite a bit of difference. A 3 level dip is a bigger commitment than most people treat it as. But it's even bigger if your doing it in one of a certian group of classes like the Rogue where they are building up in various increments on almost every single level. Missing level for something else on Rogue is not so bad. Missing 3 is a whole lot more. And Missing Any more than that may be time to consider stepping away from Rogue altogether if your taking that many levels away from it because your going to be chasing a fair bit of a curve and set of abilities that your behind on from that point forward.
Also. Overkill is a non-factor. People can make a fuss of it all they want. But overkill is something most everybody in D&D does on an almost constant basis and dont' realize it. While there are those moments where just one or two more damage would have done the trick and players dont' know it because DM's don't disclose it. Overkilling is basically still a very normalized result. if Overkill wasn't heavily normalized in this game. Paladin's would not have the OP reputation that they do. Because they are actually one of the biggest culprits when it comes to overkilling their enemies versus the economy of spreading damage out to it's most useful extent. Followed by Barbarians and Rogues. Exactly in which order I'll let you decide. But they all do it so often that if DM's kept a running tally of their overkill damage and applied it elsewhere between the three of them you'd probably beat other encounters before you actually even got to them by the end of the standard adventure day of 5 to 6 battles a day. And Dipping a couple levels into fighter and using a slightly bigger bow does almost nothing to stop this issue. Specially when the argument is that it mechanically helps the rogue to sneak attack more. Crossbow master also does nothing to fix this issue. Crossbow master is almost entirely more effective in the hands of somebody who has more attacks than less attacks as well anyway.
But even saying all this. Simply saying "Be aware of what your getting versus what your giving up and these are some extra factors that you missed" Does not in any way equate "don't take the class dip." it is merely "Be aware of what your getting versus what your giving up and these are some extra factors that you missed."
If we are talking 2 level dips. Another consideration might be taking two levels of Ranger.
1st level (with Tasha's options) you get a skill, two languages, favored foe (1d4 to add to sneak?), and expertise. 2nd level you get a fighting style, 2 spells known (Hunter's Mark, goodberry/Curewounds?) and two slots.
Between HM and FF you have replaced the missing sneak damage (and it can be more broadly used), you added an expertise, a healing spell close to Second Wind, and got your fighting style.
The missing piece is action surge.
Regardless, I love the idea of grabbing fighting initiate to better realize how you want your character to function.
You've actually already made up for action surge. It's primary point is a little bit of extra damage. Which your covering with the other ranger abilities.
Again while some niche usage of Action surge through held actions and such is thematically cool and sounds awesome for the few times you can make it work. it's usually not a good reason to base any serious consideration off of. Consider it a boon of what you might be able to do if you go that direction for all the other reasons to make that choice for you. But not an actual strategy for taking it otherwise you'll usually find yourself disappointed.
What about the fighter dip that it allows for Archery (+2 attack) and proficiency with longbow (+2for my current level) and ups the range and damage of my ranger weapon to 1d8.
so I’m going from +7 attack 1d6+5 short bow
longbow would be +5 attack 1d8+5 to
longbow +9 attack 1d8+5
Second wind is included, not much but not nothing - and you’re now halfway to action surge, and then one more level from a martial archetype
Rune Knight seems nice.
at worst I’m delaying expertise/ Evasion and missing out on stroke of luck / ASI
Your slowing Down more than just your expertise, evasion, and ASI. Your Also losing as much as 2d6 on your backstab damage for a largely insignificant gain in offensive power. Which seems to be the point for doing it. For rogues the gain between long bow and short bow is really small. You actually get 1 more in average damage on any turn you can get sneak attack from just a single extra 1d6. And your looking at an average of 6 damage if the level spread is set right that your not getting 2d6.
Action Surge Seems nice but it's not a big boost on Rogues overall. Since it doesn't get sneak attack your only talking about 8 to 9 damage on average from the extra attack you can make on a single turn. Sneak attack is making up this different in about 3 turns for just 1d6 and faster for each d6 after that from sneak attack.
With the addition of Steady Aim from tasha's and the way that sneak attack works on it's own already. It's not a light thing to forgo sneak attack damage on a rogue. Your actually potentially giving up quite a bit.
yes Rune Knight could offset the damage a little bit. But it only turns out to actually be more damage if you don't expect the game to go past level 10 at most anyway and perhaps lower than that. But at the same time that also means that the lower the level the game ends at the less actual use you get out of rune knight for all the investment as well.
You are making up for that 7 points of damage DPR wise with a better chance at hitting for the most part. Just hitting more often as a rogue is a big deal as you only get the one attack.
Its totally worth it for the fighting style IMO. Also action surge could allow you to get two sneak attacks off in one turn for a HUGE amount of surge damage when needed:
Action: Attack with bow.
Action Surge: Ready Attack for if enemy moves or attacks.
Off turn: Enemy moves or attacks....you get sneak attack again with your reaction.
I already accounted for that. And your action surge trick is usable like once. That should not be a heavily persuading action. Particularly since you cannot guarantee to trigger it meaning you could have wasted your action surge for nothing.
If the enemy does literally nothing then you kinda won anyway? They just stood there and got shot?
Oh and yes if you are only taking 2 levels in fighter you lose out on 1d6 sneak attack not 2d6 so there is that too. 3.5 damage is EASILY outweighed by a +2 to hit.
Also you get shield prof. so if you did need to wade into the frey you could have a +2 AC. You can also use a whip to proc Sneak Attack from 10ft!
You get a BA heal and a couple of levels of beefier hit die.
The major downside I see is not combat (you are actually way better off offensive combat wise with the fighter dip) but rather that you delay Expertise and Uncanny Dodge...those are the actual hits you take with the dip but I feel if your playstyle is an offensive one you will not regret the fighter 2.
I said it can be as much as 2d6 depending on when the level dip is taken. Not that it is always 2d6. You would know that if you read everything I said instead of just finding reasons to nitpick what I said.
Your also over simplifying when you say "Well if the enemy does nothing then you win anyway." Because there are potentially a lot of things the enemy might do without moving. Such as potentially engage a different party member, Make a ranged attack of their own, Potentially down a potion. Or any of who knows how many other things that they might do with their action without needing to move and triggering your one time use of Action Surge hoping to get a little more sneak attack damage in to claim it as some kind of big offsetting boon.
Its enough to offset the 2d6 (which its actually 1d6 as mentioned and based on the conversation capping the level dip to 2 indeed NEVER 2d6) then it is important to mention.
The +2 archery alone makes up the difference in actual DPR where action surge pretty much ensures you are pulling ahead thanks to either the extra attacks per short rest or on the top end extra Sneak Attacks.
Also I said "if an enemy moves or attacks I attack" which engaging another person would prompt...as would attacking at range. Sure its not something you can do everytime you use action surge but if you get even one of these extra sneak attacks off during a short rest it easily more than makes up for the loss of 1d6 no question.
Overall you get a lot of value for 1 or 2 levels of fighter and it seems OP is set on what they want to do anyway so its mostly moot at this point.
If we are talking 2 level dips. Another consideration might be taking two levels of Ranger.
1st level (with Tasha's options) you get a skill, two languages, favored foe (1d4 to add to sneak?), and expertise. 2nd level you get a fighting style, 2 spells known (Hunter's Mark, goodberry/Curewounds?) and two slots.
Between HM and FF you have replaced the missing sneak damage (and it can be more broadly used), you added an expertise, a healing spell close to Second Wind, and got your fighting style.
The missing piece is action surge.
Regardless, I love the idea of grabbing fighting initiate to better realize how you want your character to function.
You've actually already made up for action surge. It's primary point is a little bit of extra damage. Which your covering with the other ranger abilities.
Again while some niche usage of Action surge through held actions and such is thematically cool and sounds awesome for the few times you can make it work. it's usually not a good reason to base any serious consideration off of. Consider it a boon of what you might be able to do if you go that direction for all the other reasons to make that choice for you. But not an actual strategy for taking it otherwise you'll usually find yourself disappointed.
It is for sure a great reason to consider it....its not niche at all since the ability to use it is only limited by your imagination on triggers.
Overall its one piece of the package for sure but its a valid use of the ability in the rogue toolkit as anything.
If we are talking 2 level dips. Another consideration might be taking two levels of Ranger.
1st level (with Tasha's options) you get a skill, two languages, favored foe (1d4 to add to sneak?), and expertise. 2nd level you get a fighting style, 2 spells known (Hunter's Mark, goodberry/Curewounds?) and two slots.
Between HM and FF you have replaced the missing sneak damage (and it can be more broadly used), you added an expertise, a healing spell close to Second Wind, and got your fighting style.
The missing piece is action surge.
Regardless, I love the idea of grabbing fighting initiate to better realize how you want your character to function.
You've actually already made up for action surge. It's primary point is a little bit of extra damage. Which your covering with the other ranger abilities.
Again while some niche usage of Action surge through held actions and such is thematically cool and sounds awesome for the few times you can make it work. it's usually not a good reason to base any serious consideration off of. Consider it a boon of what you might be able to do if you go that direction for all the other reasons to make that choice for you. But not an actual strategy for taking it otherwise you'll usually find yourself disappointed.
It is for sure a great reason to consider it....its not niche at all since the ability to use it is only limited by your imagination on triggers.
Overall its one piece of the package for sure but its a valid use of the ability in the rogue toolkit as anything.
your limiting factor is in the limits on using action surge... Which the best use of action surge is still "screw it. i use action surge." and you take several more whacks at something. The more you tie action surge to anything that requires triggers or isn't in the moment the less worth it the ability becomes because your taking a very limited action resource and introducing variables where you use it for absolutely no benefit.
Action surge is strong. But action surge is strong because of it's almost guaranteed value out of it's usage under most normal (read non-complicated) combat circumstances. So while it is a valid use of the ability. It is not a valid use to base important decisions and important character tactics around that you cannot actually count on in actual play with any regularity or certainty. As I said. it's a cool image. People might talk about the tactic when it works. But if it doesn't work for them it's gonna just become one of those negative points instead and thta can be done very easily.
If we are talking 2 level dips. Another consideration might be taking two levels of Ranger.
1st level (with Tasha's options) you get a skill, two languages, favored foe (1d4 to add to sneak?), and expertise. 2nd level you get a fighting style, 2 spells known (Hunter's Mark, goodberry/Curewounds?) and two slots.
Between HM and FF you have replaced the missing sneak damage (and it can be more broadly used), you added an expertise, a healing spell close to Second Wind, and got your fighting style.
The missing piece is action surge.
Regardless, I love the idea of grabbing fighting initiate to better realize how you want your character to function.
You've actually already made up for action surge. It's primary point is a little bit of extra damage. Which your covering with the other ranger abilities.
Again while some niche usage of Action surge through held actions and such is thematically cool and sounds awesome for the few times you can make it work. it's usually not a good reason to base any serious consideration off of. Consider it a boon of what you might be able to do if you go that direction for all the other reasons to make that choice for you. But not an actual strategy for taking it otherwise you'll usually find yourself disappointed.
It is for sure a great reason to consider it....its not niche at all since the ability to use it is only limited by your imagination on triggers.
Overall its one piece of the package for sure but its a valid use of the ability in the rogue toolkit as anything.
your limiting factor is in the limits on using action surge... Which the best use of action surge is still "screw it. i use action surge." and you take several more whacks at something. The more you tie action surge to anything that requires triggers or isn't in the moment the less worth it the ability becomes because your taking a very limited action resource and introducing variables where you use it for absolutely no benefit.
Action surge is strong. But action surge is strong because of it's almost guaranteed value out of it's usage under most normal (read non-complicated) combat circumstances. So while it is a valid use of the ability. It is not a valid use to base important decisions and important character tactics around that you cannot actually count on in actual play with any regularity or certainty. As I said. it's a cool image. People might talk about the tactic when it works. But if it doesn't work for them it's gonna just become one of those negative points instead and thta can be done very easily.
and if you miss with all your attacks with an action surge it feels bad too? Not sure what you mean....any time a plan doesn't work is going to be disappointing so to say because it can fail is a negative makes no real sense to me.
What about the fighter dip that it allows for Archery (+2 attack) and proficiency with longbow (+2for my current level) and ups the range and damage of my ranger weapon to 1d8.
so I’m going from +7 attack 1d6+5 short bow
longbow would be +5 attack 1d8+5 to
longbow +9 attack 1d8+5
Second wind is included, not much but not nothing - and you’re now halfway to action surge, and then one more level from a martial archetype
Rune Knight seems nice.
at worst I’m delaying expertise/ Evasion and missing out on stroke of luck / ASI
Your slowing Down more than just your expertise, evasion, and ASI. Your Also losing as much as 2d6 on your backstab damage for a largely insignificant gain in offensive power. Which seems to be the point for doing it. For rogues the gain between long bow and short bow is really small. You actually get 1 more in average damage on any turn you can get sneak attack from just a single extra 1d6. And your looking at an average of 6 damage if the level spread is set right that your not getting 2d6.
Action Surge Seems nice but it's not a big boost on Rogues overall. Since it doesn't get sneak attack your only talking about 8 to 9 damage on average from the extra attack you can make on a single turn. Sneak attack is making up this different in about 3 turns for just 1d6 and faster for each d6 after that from sneak attack.
With the addition of Steady Aim from tasha's and the way that sneak attack works on it's own already. It's not a light thing to forgo sneak attack damage on a rogue. Your actually potentially giving up quite a bit.
yes Rune Knight could offset the damage a little bit. But it only turns out to actually be more damage if you don't expect the game to go past level 10 at most anyway and perhaps lower than that. But at the same time that also means that the lower the level the game ends at the less actual use you get out of rune knight for all the investment as well.
You are making up for that 7 points of damage DPR wise with a better chance at hitting for the most part. Just hitting more often as a rogue is a big deal as you only get the one attack.
Its totally worth it for the fighting style IMO. Also action surge could allow you to get two sneak attacks off in one turn for a HUGE amount of surge damage when needed:
Action: Attack with bow.
Action Surge: Ready Attack for if enemy moves or attacks.
Off turn: Enemy moves or attacks....you get sneak attack again with your reaction.
I already accounted for that. And your action surge trick is usable like once. That should not be a heavily persuading action. Particularly since you cannot guarantee to trigger it meaning you could have wasted your action surge for nothing.
If the enemy does literally nothing then you kinda won anyway? They just stood there and got shot?
Oh and yes if you are only taking 2 levels in fighter you lose out on 1d6 sneak attack not 2d6 so there is that too. 3.5 damage is EASILY outweighed by a +2 to hit.
Also you get shield prof. so if you did need to wade into the frey you could have a +2 AC. You can also use a whip to proc Sneak Attack from 10ft!
You get a BA heal and a couple of levels of beefier hit die.
The major downside I see is not combat (you are actually way better off offensive combat wise with the fighter dip) but rather that you delay Expertise and Uncanny Dodge...those are the actual hits you take with the dip but I feel if your playstyle is an offensive one you will not regret the fighter 2.
I said it can be as much as 2d6 depending on when the level dip is taken. Not that it is always 2d6. You would know that if you read everything I said instead of just finding reasons to nitpick what I said.
Your also over simplifying when you say "Well if the enemy does nothing then you win anyway." Because there are potentially a lot of things the enemy might do without moving. Such as potentially engage a different party member, Make a ranged attack of their own, Potentially down a potion. Or any of who knows how many other things that they might do with their action without needing to move and triggering your one time use of Action Surge hoping to get a little more sneak attack damage in to claim it as some kind of big offsetting boon.
Its enough to offset the 2d6 (which its actually 1d6 as mentioned and based on the conversation capping the level dip to 2 indeed NEVER 2d6) then it is important to mention.
The +2 archery alone makes up the difference in actual DPR where action surge pretty much ensures you are pulling ahead thanks to either the extra attacks per short rest or on the top end extra Sneak Attacks.
Also I said "if an enemy moves or attacks I attack" which engaging another person would prompt...as would attacking at range. Sure its not something you can do everytime you use action surge but if you get even one of these extra sneak attacks off during a short rest it easily more than makes up for the loss of 1d6 no question.
Overall you get a lot of value for 1 or 2 levels of fighter and it seems OP is set on what they want to do anyway so its mostly moot at this point.
Action Surge since it's only one attack in one round does almost nothing to offset DPR for a rogue except at the lowest levels. Even with a long bow your looking at an average damage of 9 at max dexterity. which the average rogue that is point buy built is accomplishing that at either level 4 or level 8. And this is slowed down by taking the fighter levels. Not too badly with just one fighter level. But it starts being bad at 3 levels. Sometimes with those three levels it may jsut be 1d6. but it's easily 2d6 if it's over 2 odd levels. But it's also one attack. So realistically while it makes a single round look much better. It does not make the actual dpr of several combat rounds better. if you stretch that average damage of 9 over just 3 rounds from the action surge attack. 1d6 has covered that amount of damage just by getting sneak attacks over 3 turns. Something that rogue's actually have a lot of ways of doing. For plenty of rogue's played in the game not getting sneak attack is actually more of an anomaly than getting it. And once you get over 3 turns that the Action Surge has to cover. The lower the actual DPR boost from Action surge is. This is why singular attacks aren't adding a whole lot on rogues. Even additional attack is only marginally better because the actual weapon attack is not where most of the rogue's damage is coming from. Even if they could swing d10 weapons to do it. It is only at the lowest levels that the weapons are largely impactful to what your doing as a rogue. But as they level up that gets to be less and less. They get to a point about the middle of the game where they can hit with almost anything and their damage is not going to dramatically change based upon the weapon but more just on how well their sneak attack damage rolls. This is why rogue's can get away with wielding things like Daggers without too much issue, and why dual wielding isn't a significant increase in damage. Rogue's just aren't relying all that heavily on these things. It's also why Action Surge is just not as valuable to them in general. Now this is not to say that Action Surge is not valuable, It's just not as valuable. Because the value of Action surge is directly proportional to how much you can get out of it and how reliable it is when you do. Which is why that characters that get more hits out of it get more use out of it and why it is so strong on things like Fighters which specialize in getting more hits for their action economy as they get higher in level. But what it does for the fighter doesn't actually fully transfer over to other classes and not all classes are going to be able to make up for that fact in other ways.
As for the +2. I did not say that this is not valuable either. But the nebulous "hitting more" has thresh-holds that are completely being forgotten about. If the rogue is hitting most of their attacks anway. That 10% default value we assign things because of the d20 is often not really 10% for some who are hitting better to begin with. Particularly when despite the fact that your rolling a d20. Your target number for a decent amount of play, and the levels that people are playing at most your target number is only a 15. not a 20. And when your aiming at a 15 and your chance of hitting that is only 50% at best. 10% is a big deal. But when you've got something more akin to an 75-85% to hit that same number your not getting the same return value on that 10%. So Hitting that 1 or 2 or 3 more hits out of every potentially 30 or 40 hits due to that small difference compared to all the ones that they were hitting regardless is not nearly as beneficial. The bigger issue is not actually entirely in the rogue hitting more but people just see hits from Rogue's stick out more when they finally do happen because of the way the rogue works. Even though Rogues tend to actually miss less than other martial classes. Particularly when they are doing things to make their sneak attack work. Because it's often applying things like advantage or optional bonuses from Flanking or other such abilities to their strike to begin with. But they are not typically doing things like taking feats that are going to basically guarantee they miss 1 out of every 4 attacks they make like several other martial classes to be able to do fully comparable damage either. +2 is nice. But +2 is a whole lot nicer on other martial classes where their overall to hit bonus is often a whole lot smaller when attempting to get full value out of their kit of abilities compared to the rogue.
Thanks everyone, your insights and options were very helpful! initially I did consider ranger dip as well, you have to go further for the fighting style, and if your in for 2 you may as well go for 3 and pickup gloomstalker. So I was comparing 3 ranger with 3 fighter, and the martial archetypes. on topic apparently paladin rogues are a thing so some opportunities for fighting style opportunities.
in a game starting at a higher level I think I would be more open to the deeper multi class, but starting level 1 when the play tier is unknown you might not get to those subclasses.
im quite looking forward to the single level dip for story reasons and then maintaining rogue to keep with the core concept, sneak attack dice and great rogue features.
Thanks everyone, your insights and options were very helpful! initially I did consider ranger dip as well, you have to go further for the fighting style, and if your in for 2 you may as well go for 3 and pickup gloomstalker. So I was comparing 3 ranger with 3 fighter, and the martial archetypes. on topic apparently paladin rogues are a thing so some opportunities for fighting style opportunities.
in a game starting at a higher level I think I would be more open to the deeper multi class, but starting level 1 when the play tier is unknown you might not get to those subclasses.
im quite looking forward to the single level dip for story reasons and then maintaining rogue to keep with the core concept, sneak attack dice and great rogue features.
Good deal! Sounds like you are gonna have a good time!
Thanks everyone, your insights and options were very helpful! initially I did consider ranger dip as well, you have to go further for the fighting style, and if your in for 2 you may as well go for 3 and pickup gloomstalker. So I was comparing 3 ranger with 3 fighter, and the martial archetypes. on topic apparently paladin rogues are a thing so some opportunities for fighting style opportunities.
in a game starting at a higher level I think I would be more open to the deeper multi class, but starting level 1 when the play tier is unknown you might not get to those subclasses.
im quite looking forward to the single level dip for story reasons and then maintaining rogue to keep with the core concept, sneak attack dice and great rogue features.
See. I didnt' even know you were leaning towards ranger initially and considering 3 levels in it. I personally would have leaned towards ranger when comparing 3 levels towards the two even though I know a lot might lean towards fighter. As you mentioned Gloomstalker leans quite well into the whole Rogue theming. Even if some of it's more powerful abilities are a bit more hit and miss in above ground campaigns. It's a really good blend of styles that builds on a ranged rogue pretty nicely.
But the level for fitting story reasons that you approve of far outweighs the various mechanical values to me. Organic characters like that have almost always been the most enjoyable because they keep kind of a vision and changes in the direction of the character so much more in mind rather than trying to force those things. So I don't think you can really go wrong there. specially in a game you don't know how long it will go.
Edit: Also I just want to mention. it might not seem like it in this thread. But I do really like action surge a lot. I just accept that it doesn't fit all situations. And there are a couple situations I wish I could get it without level dips (like some monk builds since monks can make fairly good use of it but there is so much for them to get at every level until you get pretty high). But I also understand why perhaps it should be kept to requiring level dips to achieve.
I think it depends on what you want to do, but in general I would stick to Archery or Thrown Weapon Fighting.
Archery increases your accuracy, which helps you land Sneak Attack more often at range. And this works with any ranged weapon, so if you have Crossbow Expert then you can make up to two ranged attacks (1 with your Bonus Action) for two chances to land Sneak Attack.
I like Thrown Fighting Style with the Thief archetype. It's not much, but +2 damage with an acid vial or flask of alchemist's fire, and as a bonus action, is still +2 acid or fire damage that wasn't there before.
I think it depends on what you want to do, but in general I would stick to Archery or Thrown Weapon Fighting.
Archery increases your accuracy, which helps you land Sneak Attack more often at range. And this works with any ranged weapon, so if you have Crossbow Expert then you can make up to two ranged attacks (1 with your Bonus Action) for two chances to land Sneak Attack.
I like Thrown Fighting Style with the Thief archetype. It's not much, but +2 damage with an acid vial or flask of alchemist's fire, and as a bonus action, is still +2 acid or fire damage that wasn't there before.
I was just reading a meme on darts using strength and brainstorming that. I also read an interesting axe thrower. my brain wouldn’t let me imagine a character with 12 throwing axes on their person as plausible. Maybe… 8. And then mobile so you can run dash around retrieving axes and getting in some close quarter melee mixing up throws.
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If we are talking 2 level dips. Another consideration might be taking two levels of Ranger.
1st level (with Tasha's options) you get a skill, two languages, favored foe (1d4 to add to sneak?), and expertise.
2nd level you get a fighting style, 2 spells known (Hunter's Mark, goodberry/Curewounds?) and two slots.
Between HM and FF you have replaced the missing sneak damage (and it can be more broadly used), you added an expertise, a healing spell close to Second Wind, and got your fighting style.
The missing piece is action surge.
Regardless, I love the idea of grabbing fighting initiate to better realize how you want your character to function.
Ranger dip would be great as well with spellcasting and the Tasha's options for sure!
I said it can be as much as 2d6 depending on when the level dip is taken. Not that it is always 2d6. You would know that if you read everything I said instead of just finding reasons to nitpick what I said.
Your also over simplifying when you say "Well if the enemy does nothing then you win anyway." Because there are potentially a lot of things the enemy might do without moving. Such as potentially engage a different party member, Make a ranged attack of their own, Potentially down a potion. Or any of who knows how many other things that they might do with their action without needing to move and triggering your one time use of Action Surge hoping to get a little more sneak attack damage in to claim it as some kind of big offsetting boon.
This is a far better reason than purely mechanics to make a Dip into another class. It's thematic and fitting and has a heavy story basis behind it. There is no reason not to support this kind of single level dip when it is for these kinds of reasons. it does more for the character than just trying to balance out the pro's and cons of what you gain or lose for a class.
If you listen. That is not what I said at all. That may be what your choosing to interpret. perhaps from your interest in supporting a pro-dip stance. All i said. Which MDuncan actually acknowledged was to consider all of the pro's and con's and that there were more potential cons than the ones that he listed for not taking rogue levels.
Thta in no way says "don't take Fighter." Unless you purposefully choose to alter my words in your mind to read it that way. All it says is "Be Aware of your choices and these are also things to consider as part of that." And then everybody wants to jump on me because they don't like the interpretation.
Also. Average Damage is not necessarily Significantly higher. This is a quick math white room scenario estimation. And it's usually not taking into account all of the actual factors. It's usually just looking at 1d8 and going "that's bigger than 1d6" so that's going to be stronger. Without taking in other real factors. And as I said. The 10% while it can be helpful. It's primary helpfulness is most seen in specific scenario's and within specific thresh-holds. This is entirely true. Against Creatures that your hitting almost all the time anyway because of other factors about your style of fighting. And the Way that your Class and Character generates damage. These so called forgone conclusion surface bonuses aren't necessarily what they are portrayed from surface level quick math.
Also. He wasn't initially talking about just one level. That changes up various factors as well when your talking about 1 level versus 3 levels. You start losing a lot more from something like the Rogue the more levels you start side tracking away from Rogue if mainly being a rogue with just a dip is your intention. So you need to be aware of when your doing it and how much things are changing for all of those levels and not just level 1. They tend to make quite a bit of difference. A 3 level dip is a bigger commitment than most people treat it as. But it's even bigger if your doing it in one of a certian group of classes like the Rogue where they are building up in various increments on almost every single level. Missing level for something else on Rogue is not so bad. Missing 3 is a whole lot more. And Missing Any more than that may be time to consider stepping away from Rogue altogether if your taking that many levels away from it because your going to be chasing a fair bit of a curve and set of abilities that your behind on from that point forward.
Also. Overkill is a non-factor. People can make a fuss of it all they want. But overkill is something most everybody in D&D does on an almost constant basis and dont' realize it. While there are those moments where just one or two more damage would have done the trick and players dont' know it because DM's don't disclose it. Overkilling is basically still a very normalized result. if Overkill wasn't heavily normalized in this game. Paladin's would not have the OP reputation that they do. Because they are actually one of the biggest culprits when it comes to overkilling their enemies versus the economy of spreading damage out to it's most useful extent. Followed by Barbarians and Rogues. Exactly in which order I'll let you decide. But they all do it so often that if DM's kept a running tally of their overkill damage and applied it elsewhere between the three of them you'd probably beat other encounters before you actually even got to them by the end of the standard adventure day of 5 to 6 battles a day. And Dipping a couple levels into fighter and using a slightly bigger bow does almost nothing to stop this issue. Specially when the argument is that it mechanically helps the rogue to sneak attack more. Crossbow master also does nothing to fix this issue. Crossbow master is almost entirely more effective in the hands of somebody who has more attacks than less attacks as well anyway.
But even saying all this. Simply saying "Be aware of what your getting versus what your giving up and these are some extra factors that you missed" Does not in any way equate "don't take the class dip." it is merely "Be aware of what your getting versus what your giving up and these are some extra factors that you missed."
You've actually already made up for action surge. It's primary point is a little bit of extra damage. Which your covering with the other ranger abilities.
Again while some niche usage of Action surge through held actions and such is thematically cool and sounds awesome for the few times you can make it work. it's usually not a good reason to base any serious consideration off of. Consider it a boon of what you might be able to do if you go that direction for all the other reasons to make that choice for you. But not an actual strategy for taking it otherwise you'll usually find yourself disappointed.
Its enough to offset the 2d6 (which its actually 1d6 as mentioned and based on the conversation capping the level dip to 2 indeed NEVER 2d6) then it is important to mention.
The +2 archery alone makes up the difference in actual DPR where action surge pretty much ensures you are pulling ahead thanks to either the extra attacks per short rest or on the top end extra Sneak Attacks.
Also I said "if an enemy moves or attacks I attack" which engaging another person would prompt...as would attacking at range. Sure its not something you can do everytime you use action surge but if you get even one of these extra sneak attacks off during a short rest it easily more than makes up for the loss of 1d6 no question.
Overall you get a lot of value for 1 or 2 levels of fighter and it seems OP is set on what they want to do anyway so its mostly moot at this point.
It is for sure a great reason to consider it....its not niche at all since the ability to use it is only limited by your imagination on triggers.
Overall its one piece of the package for sure but its a valid use of the ability in the rogue toolkit as anything.
your limiting factor is in the limits on using action surge... Which the best use of action surge is still "screw it. i use action surge." and you take several more whacks at something. The more you tie action surge to anything that requires triggers or isn't in the moment the less worth it the ability becomes because your taking a very limited action resource and introducing variables where you use it for absolutely no benefit.
Action surge is strong. But action surge is strong because of it's almost guaranteed value out of it's usage under most normal (read non-complicated) combat circumstances. So while it is a valid use of the ability. It is not a valid use to base important decisions and important character tactics around that you cannot actually count on in actual play with any regularity or certainty. As I said. it's a cool image. People might talk about the tactic when it works. But if it doesn't work for them it's gonna just become one of those negative points instead and thta can be done very easily.
and if you miss with all your attacks with an action surge it feels bad too? Not sure what you mean....any time a plan doesn't work is going to be disappointing so to say because it can fail is a negative makes no real sense to me.
Action Surge since it's only one attack in one round does almost nothing to offset DPR for a rogue except at the lowest levels. Even with a long bow your looking at an average damage of 9 at max dexterity. which the average rogue that is point buy built is accomplishing that at either level 4 or level 8. And this is slowed down by taking the fighter levels. Not too badly with just one fighter level. But it starts being bad at 3 levels. Sometimes with those three levels it may jsut be 1d6. but it's easily 2d6 if it's over 2 odd levels. But it's also one attack. So realistically while it makes a single round look much better. It does not make the actual dpr of several combat rounds better. if you stretch that average damage of 9 over just 3 rounds from the action surge attack. 1d6 has covered that amount of damage just by getting sneak attacks over 3 turns. Something that rogue's actually have a lot of ways of doing. For plenty of rogue's played in the game not getting sneak attack is actually more of an anomaly than getting it. And once you get over 3 turns that the Action Surge has to cover. The lower the actual DPR boost from Action surge is. This is why singular attacks aren't adding a whole lot on rogues. Even additional attack is only marginally better because the actual weapon attack is not where most of the rogue's damage is coming from. Even if they could swing d10 weapons to do it. It is only at the lowest levels that the weapons are largely impactful to what your doing as a rogue. But as they level up that gets to be less and less. They get to a point about the middle of the game where they can hit with almost anything and their damage is not going to dramatically change based upon the weapon but more just on how well their sneak attack damage rolls. This is why rogue's can get away with wielding things like Daggers without too much issue, and why dual wielding isn't a significant increase in damage. Rogue's just aren't relying all that heavily on these things. It's also why Action Surge is just not as valuable to them in general. Now this is not to say that Action Surge is not valuable, It's just not as valuable. Because the value of Action surge is directly proportional to how much you can get out of it and how reliable it is when you do. Which is why that characters that get more hits out of it get more use out of it and why it is so strong on things like Fighters which specialize in getting more hits for their action economy as they get higher in level. But what it does for the fighter doesn't actually fully transfer over to other classes and not all classes are going to be able to make up for that fact in other ways.
As for the +2. I did not say that this is not valuable either. But the nebulous "hitting more" has thresh-holds that are completely being forgotten about. If the rogue is hitting most of their attacks anway. That 10% default value we assign things because of the d20 is often not really 10% for some who are hitting better to begin with. Particularly when despite the fact that your rolling a d20. Your target number for a decent amount of play, and the levels that people are playing at most your target number is only a 15. not a 20. And when your aiming at a 15 and your chance of hitting that is only 50% at best. 10% is a big deal. But when you've got something more akin to an 75-85% to hit that same number your not getting the same return value on that 10%. So Hitting that 1 or 2 or 3 more hits out of every potentially 30 or 40 hits due to that small difference compared to all the ones that they were hitting regardless is not nearly as beneficial. The bigger issue is not actually entirely in the rogue hitting more but people just see hits from Rogue's stick out more when they finally do happen because of the way the rogue works. Even though Rogues tend to actually miss less than other martial classes. Particularly when they are doing things to make their sneak attack work. Because it's often applying things like advantage or optional bonuses from Flanking or other such abilities to their strike to begin with. But they are not typically doing things like taking feats that are going to basically guarantee they miss 1 out of every 4 attacks they make like several other martial classes to be able to do fully comparable damage either. +2 is nice. But +2 is a whole lot nicer on other martial classes where their overall to hit bonus is often a whole lot smaller when attempting to get full value out of their kit of abilities compared to the rogue.
Thanks everyone, your insights and options were very helpful!
initially I did consider ranger dip as well, you have to go further for the fighting style, and if your in for 2 you may as well go for 3 and pickup gloomstalker. So I was comparing 3 ranger with 3 fighter, and the martial archetypes.
on topic apparently paladin rogues are a thing so some opportunities for fighting style opportunities.
in a game starting at a higher level I think I would be more open to the deeper multi class, but starting level 1 when the play tier is unknown you might not get to those subclasses.
im quite looking forward to the single level dip for story reasons and then maintaining rogue to keep with the core concept, sneak attack dice and great rogue features.
Good deal! Sounds like you are gonna have a good time!
See. I didnt' even know you were leaning towards ranger initially and considering 3 levels in it. I personally would have leaned towards ranger when comparing 3 levels towards the two even though I know a lot might lean towards fighter. As you mentioned Gloomstalker leans quite well into the whole Rogue theming. Even if some of it's more powerful abilities are a bit more hit and miss in above ground campaigns. It's a really good blend of styles that builds on a ranged rogue pretty nicely.
But the level for fitting story reasons that you approve of far outweighs the various mechanical values to me. Organic characters like that have almost always been the most enjoyable because they keep kind of a vision and changes in the direction of the character so much more in mind rather than trying to force those things. So I don't think you can really go wrong there. specially in a game you don't know how long it will go.
Edit: Also I just want to mention. it might not seem like it in this thread. But I do really like action surge a lot. I just accept that it doesn't fit all situations. And there are a couple situations I wish I could get it without level dips (like some monk builds since monks can make fairly good use of it but there is so much for them to get at every level until you get pretty high). But I also understand why perhaps it should be kept to requiring level dips to achieve.
I think it depends on what you want to do, but in general I would stick to Archery or Thrown Weapon Fighting.
Archery increases your accuracy, which helps you land Sneak Attack more often at range. And this works with any ranged weapon, so if you have Crossbow Expert then you can make up to two ranged attacks (1 with your Bonus Action) for two chances to land Sneak Attack.
I like Thrown Fighting Style with the Thief archetype. It's not much, but +2 damage with an acid vial or flask of alchemist's fire, and as a bonus action, is still +2 acid or fire damage that wasn't there before.
Thrown has been a great addition to the game!
I really want to make a dart throw build.
I was just reading a meme on darts using strength and brainstorming that. I also read an interesting axe thrower. my brain wouldn’t let me imagine a character with 12 throwing axes on their person as plausible. Maybe… 8. And then mobile so you can run dash around retrieving axes and getting in some close quarter melee mixing up throws.